zlacker

[parent] [thread] 76 comments
1. tptace+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-02-18 23:08:25
I'd be interested in hearing the most credible/reputable sources speaking out in favor of these changes. I've exclusively seen commentators dunking on this (rightfully so), across the political spectrum. To be clear: I'm wondering if we can find specific people speaking up for this, not an analysis of whose side of the culture war is most culpable for it.
replies(6): >>dclusi+h4 >>mcguir+0c >>bla3+xu >>ec1096+gH >>smrtin+VH >>mansio+Fs2
2. dclusi+h4[view] [source] 2023-02-18 23:41:16
>>tptace+(OP)
The technical/organizational details around implementation of this and how it came to be realized would probably also be interesting to a readership as nerdy as hn. I think I’ve seen a few of these posts but can’t seem to remember them.
3. mcguir+0c[view] [source] 2023-02-19 00:41:15
>>tptace+(OP)
The most cogent analysis I've seen is that the changes were made by the owners of the books in order to sell more books.
replies(3): >>joseph+8d >>joseph+yf >>lamont+pr
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4. joseph+8d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 00:51:45
>>mcguir+0c
If this were the case, I'd expect them to keep selling both the original and rewritten versions, since for both, there's at least a few people who'd be willing to buy one but not the other.
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5. joseph+yf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 01:13:07
>>mcguir+0c
From the article:

> The Dahl estate owned the rights to the books until 2021, when Netflix bought them outright for a reported $686 million, building on an earlier rights deal. The American streaming service now has overall control over the book publishing, as well as various adaptation projects that are in the works.

I suspect they're hoping netflix will make movies based on his books. Netflix seems pretty sensitive to twitter opinions. They're probably trying to throw a bone to the twitter mob to make it less likely any new movies get "cancelled".

replies(4): >>renewi+1i >>boppo1+Gk >>Gigach+Cq >>slibhb+MA
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6. renewi+1i[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 01:38:05
>>joseph+yf
I sympathize with the view of Netflix bowdlerizing to broaden the audience but they're also the platform with Dave Chappelle - which makes it hard to align them with "pretty sensitive to Twitter opinions" since a bunch of people have declared that fellow persona non grata.
replies(1): >>joseph+Ql
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7. boppo1+Gk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 01:57:18
>>joseph+yf
Did Netflix buy the rights to the books or to movies of the books? If the former, is it then ultimately Netflix responsible for the changes?
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8. joseph+Ql[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 02:06:28
>>renewi+1i
True; but I don't think they paid to have Dave Chappelle produced. They stopped making House of Cards after the sexual harassment thing with Kevin Spacey.

I'm sure they'd rather have less controversy around Dahl's work. And its pretty easy to imagine Dahl's estate making the 'conservative' choice and allowing these edits if there's even a risk of their netflix deal falling apart.

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9. Gigach+Cq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 02:43:42
>>joseph+yf
Surely the success of Hogwarts Legacy shows you can just completely ignore twitter and nothing happens.
replies(2): >>zmgsab+dx >>joseph+fx
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10. lamont+pr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 02:49:52
>>mcguir+0c
Yeah, they're doing this willingly, they're not being compelled, they're making an economic decision that the books will sell better with the edits.
11. bla3+xu[view] [source] 2023-02-19 03:22:03
>>tptace+(OP)
I'm neither credible nor reputable, but I'm in favor of a weak version of this. When reading older books to my young child, I replace language that suggests that women are supposed to stay at home and men are supposed to go to work. One day soon he'll be able to read, and at that point I'll wish that books that were a product of their time would have been updated for the current time, so that he could just read the book, without us having to have a conversation about how things were different then.
replies(7): >>menset+bv >>zmgsab+Pw >>bentco+5y >>biztos+Vz >>culi+wC >>kerpot+5L >>robjan+Pz4
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12. menset+bv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 03:28:11
>>bla3+xu
Your decision may be contributing to the crisis of identity of women who do want to raise a family though, and who have been crushed by a culture who pushes college and helping capital owners as the meaning to life.
replies(2): >>TchoBe+Xw >>Samoye+WB
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13. zmgsab+Pw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 03:40:57
>>bla3+xu
Do you think the best way to address slavery is to erase all the records and pretend it didn’t happen?
replies(2): >>smt88+6B >>culi+VC
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14. TchoBe+Xw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 03:42:07
>>menset+bv
The only way to solve this identity crisis is to push the idea that women must stay at home, of course.
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15. zmgsab+dx[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 03:45:22
>>Gigach+Cq
Dior is up while WarnerMedia is down.

Not only can you make money while ignoring Twitter — but you can make money by ignoring Twitter screeching. Eg, by hiring Johnny Depp rather than engaging in misandry by supporting false accusations against him.

Hopefully, WarnerMedia eventually gets the memo — and stops discriminating against men while supporting abusers like Amber Heard (female) or Ezra Miller (non-binary).

I think a lot of companies have forgotten they need to treat people based on the content of their character rather than race/sex/gender/etc.

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16. joseph+fx[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 03:45:50
>>Gigach+Cq
Yeah; I don’t know why it’s taken people so long to realise this. I know it seems to people on Twitter that everyone is on twitter, but that’s really not true. About 10% of people in the USA use Twitter daily - which is a huge number of eyeballs. But that still leaves the remaining 90% of people choosing instead to enjoy our short time on this planet.

If anything, I wouldn’t be surprised if the outrage over Hogwarts Legacy increased sales of the game. I don’t know if I would have heard about it at all if not for the outrage machine.

Louis CK did a show here in Melbourne a few months ago and the show was sold out. For better or worse, being canceled doesn’t seem like a life sentence.

replies(4): >>jquery+Rx >>ecshaf+zy >>Samoye+tC >>Izkata+NZ
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17. jquery+Rx[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 03:52:01
>>joseph+fx
Because being cancelled isn't a real thing. It's usually just scoundrels angry they received the slightest bit of pushback. Dave Chapelle constantly whines that queer people are trying to cancel him while he cashes $20m Netflix checks on a regular basis.
replies(1): >>joseph+QA
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18. bentco+5y[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 03:53:44
>>bla3+xu
> I replace language that suggests that women are supposed to stay at home and men are supposed to go to work

I totally agree - my kids had Berenstain Bear's books (as random gifts and such) and I would avoid reading them because in particular the way they portrayed Papa Bear as a bumbling fool grated on my nerves. He's like a Homer Simpson without the heart. I'm certain mothers also don't appreciate the way Mama Bear is portrayed as always in the kitchen and the ultimate authority figure.

If these books were updated to modern sensibilities I wouldn't have a problem reading them to my kids. As it stands, I skipped them and they weren't a part of my children's upbringing. I don't mind.

replies(2): >>a_e_k+6N >>chaost+Z81
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19. ecshaf+zy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 03:58:42
>>joseph+fx
I have seen this a few times even as a dev, where people put way to much focus on twitter. I think its because there is a class of people that use twitter and they think twitter is really really important. But some random person on twitter tweets "@company x is bad" and its taken much more seriously than say an email, slack message, or whatever. Most people don't use twitter ever, most people on twitter rarely use twitter. We need to kill twitter and move on.
replies(2): >>oblio+tR >>MrScru+mX
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20. biztos+Vz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:11:28
>>bla3+xu
There are tons of books that actually are a product of the current time. Why not read those, and support living writers, instead of changing the meaning of older works?

Seems like your problem here is easier to solve without messing with the other writers and potentially confusing your child about what, say, a Ronald Dahl book is actually like.

replies(1): >>oblio+9R
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21. slibhb+MA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:18:51
>>joseph+yf
> Netflix seems pretty sensitive to twitter opinions

Do they? They sided with Chappelle. They gave Norm Macdonald a talk show.

I think Netflix does a fairly good job trying to cater to everyone, woke and not.

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22. joseph+QA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:19:19
>>jquery+Rx
Being cancelled is very much a real thing, since a lot of people have, e.g., spineless bosses who will immediately capitulate to the Twitter mob's demands.
replies(1): >>joseph+SD
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23. smt88+6B[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:20:43
>>zmgsab+Pw
Children's books are not a vital record of historical prejudice.

I don't agree with these changes, but this argument makes no sense.

replies(1): >>acuozz+XM
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24. Samoye+WB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:28:46
>>menset+bv
My understanding is that this crisis of identity is actually on men, because men aren’t now the sole breadwinners and also don’t have girlboss feminism to bolster them. Men attain less education and are more prone to crime, homelessness, and addiction. The traditional role of a man is an emotionally closed-off breadwinner, and this doesn’t work in a world where women can rival men in breadwinning but also don’t have as many barriers to forming a robust social safety net.
replies(4): >>tsol+6I >>sillys+DM >>throw_+n01 >>muyuu+281
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25. Samoye+tC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:34:50
>>joseph+fx
<I deleted a paragraph where I stated an unnuanced claim about canceling.>

The thing with hogwarts legacy is that the minorities who are affected are like 1% of the population. Even if 100% of them loudly proclaimed anything anywhere on any social media platform, it would barely affect anything simply because they’re so small compared to the rest of the population. This is in the same sense that only a minority of the population are severely immunocompromised to the point where Covid is still a threat, and the lack of masking and other safety precautions actually makes their lives significantly worse but because they’re so small their voices literally don’t matter in the grand scheme of things.

That is to say I don’t attribute the lack of irl effect to social media but due to demographic size. There’s simply no possible way for a minority of such a small size to make any waves happen anywhere, not even on anything as small as a popular video game.

replies(3): >>joseph+IF >>pasqui+oJ >>unmole+It1
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26. culi+wC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:35:06
>>bla3+xu
Right I really don't get why people are so offended by these changes

If a work of fiction is changed to not imply women are meant to stay at home and men are meant to go to work, doesn't that show that, to those offended, on some level those implications are core to what makes that work that work?

None of these changes drastically affect the storylines, character arcs, unique characteristics, etc of the stories. If the a book saying the N word despite it not being central to the story is so important to you then it doesn't seem like you care about the book so much as you care about saying the N word

replies(2): >>bitcur+AE >>exodus+tL
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27. culi+VC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:38:39
>>zmgsab+Pw
Academics and historians studying this will look at the original language of course. The publisher goes to great lengths to make available all the changes made and is very transparent about them. Obviously most people aren't reading children's books to their kids to teach them history though
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28. joseph+SD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:47:50
>>joseph+QA
Yep; to say nothing of the psychological effects of being told that the whole world hates you. That sounds really traumatic.

I'm not generally a contrapoints fan, but I really enjoyed the video she made about her experience with this on twitter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8

Or the TED talk "How one tweet can ruin your life" from 2015:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI

We studied To Kill a Mockingbird and The Crucible when I was in highschool. I remember thinking how barbaric and despicable "mob justice" was. I didn't understand it, and I assumed I never would - I thought it was something we reference from history. But twitter really has brought the mob justice style witch hunts back.

I don't understand how anyone can claim its not a real phenomenon. Being cancelled is obviously quite a real experience for the people it happens to.

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29. bitcur+AE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:54:23
>>culi+wC
> If a work of fiction is changed to not imply women are meant to stay at home and men are meant to go to work, doesn't that show that, to those offended, on some level those implications are core to what makes that work that work?

The problem is that Dahl’s work isn’t an essay, or a treatise. It’s whimsical. It’s art! The words chosen, were chosen because they were the words that worked.

Say these two extracts out loud:

> “You mean Prince Pondicherry?” said Grandpa Joe, and he began chuckling with laughter. “Completely dotty, said Grandpa George. “But very rich,” said Grandma Georgina

> “You mean Prince Puducherry?” said Grandpa Joe, and he began chuckling with laughter

They mean essentially the same thing, but they feel quite different. The rhythm of “Prince Pondicherry” has a bounce to it, “Prince Puducherry” is more like walking down hill.

You might make the argument that this trade of is worth making, but it is in fact a trade of.

replies(2): >>mikrot+QP >>lozeng+O01
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30. joseph+IF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 05:04:16
>>Samoye+tC
I think I disagree with both of your points:

> There’s simply no possible way for a minority of such a small size to make any waves happen anywhere, not even on anything as small as a popular video game.

There's an old quote - "Never assume a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. Its the only thing that ever has."

The radical left - for all that they're championing the rights of a small group of people, has been very effective at kicking up a fuss about diversity, inclusion and trans rights. It doesn't feel like a tiny fringe movement:

- Apparently most researchers and professors at a lot of universities now need to make "diversity and inclusion statements". Stanford is banning a lot of language. So is Google and other big companies.

- Authors like Roald Dahl are having their work retroactively edited to "meet modern norms".

- The pushback against this stuff is becoming a major rallying call for America's right. Now the american conservatives accomplished most of their big policy objectives in most states (concealed carry, banned abortions, etc). What can they use to "energize the base"? Fighting this stuff is being turned into a tool to get conservatives to the polls. (Source: The economist podcast.)

I'm not sure what the lived experience has become for trans people - but the fight for trans rights (as part of the fight for diversity and inclusion) seems to have made massive waves all over the place.

> The thing with hogwarts legacy is that the minorities who are affected are like 1% of the population.

The only people affected by your decision to buy Hogwarts Legacy are the developers involved. I promise you, JK Rowling won't notice the extra 50 cents in her pocket if you buy, or don't buy the game.

If you want to support trans people, do that by supporting them. The lives of trans people are unaffected by your steam purchasing decisions.

replies(2): >>Samoye+IH >>red-ir+xg4
31. ec1096+gH[view] [source] 2023-02-19 05:20:54
>>tptace+(OP)
There’s an early chapter in Charlie and the Glass Elevator that feels like it was written by a racist 11 year old, with the idiot president making fun of every ethnicity in the most banal way possible.

I skipped it when reading the story to my children.

replies(2): >>gsincl+KR >>tomp+YR
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32. Samoye+IH[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 05:26:04
>>joseph+IF
You’re going off about a lot of stuff but all I’m saying is that if even 100% of all trans people loudly proclaimed they wanted to be against the Harry Potter game they probably wouldn’t accomplish shit just because they’re such a small population. I mean literally we have laws being passed in some states to ban all of 2 trans kids (in the entire state) from participating in sports. It’s not like they can do anything to defend themselves here.
replies(1): >>zirgs+xM
33. smrtin+VH[view] [source] 2023-02-19 05:28:23
>>tptace+(OP)
It's the publishers desire to make money, that's it. I'd rather they kept he original text and add an advisory at beginning. It's insulting for those of us that read it and even realized back then they weren't so great.
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34. tsol+6I[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 05:30:10
>>Samoye+WB
Both groups can have a crisis of identity? Conservative women aren't looked upon very positively in popular culture, this isn't much of a reach.
replies(2): >>throwa+DJ >>espere+gR
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35. pasqui+oJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 05:45:12
>>Samoye+tC
i think people have gotten a lot more aware and accepting of trans people in the last couple decades. i think the real reason why people don't seem to be bothered by the harry potter game is because most people get that whatever j.k. rowling thinks or says or does doesn't really harm trans people, that she didn't make the game, and that playing a game is just playing a game.

actually, i take that back: most people don't know about j.k. rowling's opinions. and even so over the last couple decades they've become much more aware and accepting of trans people.

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36. throwa+DJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 05:47:40
>>tsol+6I
Yep. There's no shortage of crisis these days! Both of these groups are definitely suffering.
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37. kerpot+5L[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 06:07:49
>>bla3+xu
I don’t. That’s a perfectly reasonable perspective.
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38. exodus+tL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 06:16:24
>>culi+wC
> "I really don't get why people are so offended by these changes..."

The problem is, changes are made simply because a fictional female character happens to stay at home. Which is fine if she wants that, or it happens in the story.

I don't get why parents are so untrusting of their children's ability to think, that they censor and change language found in old books. Are they worried their kids will become monsters if they're not spoon-fed censored content?

Many of us grew up surrounded by unchecked stereotypes, yet many of us have zero problems with women doing whatever they want to do.

replies(1): >>TedDoe+oQ
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39. zirgs+xM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 06:31:30
>>Samoye+IH
If you ban someone from reddit or twitter - their opinions only disappear from your echo chamber not from the real world. Maybe echo chambers aren't such a good idea after all.

Those people banned every single dissenting opinion and after a while started to think that their opinions are way more popular than they actually are.

"Everybody around here thinks that JKR is bad - so surely our boycott is going to be successful - I don't see anyone who disagrees."

If anything - this ridiculous hate campaign against JKR could decrease the support for trans people.

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40. sillys+DM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 06:32:17
>>Samoye+WB
> Men attain less education and are more prone to crime, homelessness, and addiction.

What an awful thing to say. It would be different if your comment taught us something, but it's little more than a well-written diss.

Imagine how you'd feel if the word "Men" were replaced by various ethnic groups, while still maintaining its accuracy.

At one time it was true to say that women were naturally bad at chess.

My wife supported me financially for close to five years. It's why I was able to learn ML so thoroughly. Maybe some men would view her as the competition, but I'm fortunate to be in a relationship where we don't feel threatened by the other. I recommend other men try to find this as well, since it's quite nice.

It's also nice to have a family where the roles are well-defined and reliable, and there's nothing wrong with wanting one over the other. It's personal preference, which you can't really control. But saying that men are bad at forming robust social safety nets is different than qualifying your statements with "some" or "most."

I'll be the first to say that it's a huge double standard to expect most men to be emotionally closed off most of the time, whereas women are expected to be more emotional in relation to men. But you're phrasing this in a highly negative way.

The women who don't become homeless often resort to sex work. It tends to be more difficult for men to do this in a financially successful way. Men are statistically more prone to violent crime; granted, and testosterone deserves to be scrutinized in its role regarding this. As for the addiction claim, I'd be curious to see the data, since my anecdata suggests mostly equal rates. https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/substance... claims the situation is a bit more nuanced:

> For most age groups, men have higher rates of use or dependence on illicit drugs and alcohol than do women. However, women are just as likely as men to develop a substance use disorder. In addition, women may be more susceptible to craving and relapse, which are key phases of the addiction cycle.

More generally, if you're going to paint various segments of the population with negative traits, it's important to bring data to the discussion which backs up your assertions. That way it informs the reader rather than polarizing them.

That said, if you'd written a children's book, I wouldn't lobby for it to be changed. I'd buy different books, or explain it in context.

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41. acuozz+XM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 06:35:12
>>smt88+6B
Ask a few random people on the street in a major US city how many books they've read in the past five years.

I'd wager that children's books represent a much larger percentage of the books the typical US citizen reads in their entire lifetime than anyone would like to believe.

If true, this would elevate their importance enough for matters like historical accuracy to be worth considering.

replies(1): >>oblio+7R
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42. a_e_k+6N[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 06:36:55
>>bentco+5y
I've taken the "Oh no! Sorry. That book was accidentally destroyed maliciously," approach before.

(Interestingly, my own parents took that approach with the Berenstain Bears for exactly the reason you describe.)

But I'd prefer to either read something to my kids as originally written or not read it all. Or as they get older, read the original but with a parental aside on how it was a product of its time. (Might as well make it an opportunity for a brief history lesson.)

I'm definitely not a fan of this "force push" approach to updating established older works.

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43. mikrot+QP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 07:14:48
>>bitcur+AE
Maybe we should change the Mona Lisa to have blue hair
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44. TedDoe+oQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 07:23:39
>>exodus+tL
> Are they worried their kids will become monsters if they're not spoon-fed censored content?

They are worried they will imitate or become a character in a fictional fantasy

replies(1): >>chaost+Ta1
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45. oblio+7R[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 07:30:59
>>acuozz+XM
I would imagine past highscool, or the last education level with mandatory book reading, book reading falls off a cliff. And ever for mandatory book reading,I guess about half of students just read some kind of notes instead of the actual book.
replies(1): >>Izkata+kZ
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46. oblio+9R[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 07:31:48
>>biztos+Vz
Because they might not know the modern books or because they might like the older books, except for 0.001% of their content.
replies(2): >>biztos+6U1 >>red-ir+Xm3
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47. espere+gR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 07:33:06
>>tsol+6I
Wanting to stay home and raise a family (as a man, a woman, or anything else) is not "conservative", it's a lifestyle choice.

Maybe it's because I'm European but hearing the word "conservative" applied to a basic lifestyle choice so readily is really grating. There's more to life than conservative vs liberal and sometimes you just... don't need to give political labels to everything.

There's more to life than identity politics. Let people make non-political lifestyle choices without labelling them.

replies(1): >>dchowe+5n1
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48. oblio+tR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 07:35:56
>>ecshaf+zy
Journalists are constantly on Twitter. That's why it's "important", because Twitter is a hobby for people writing news.

It's a kind of "movie about movie making or movie makers wins Oscar".

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49. gsincl+KR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 07:39:09
>>ec1096+gH
That book always seemed really out there in the Dahl pantheon. I loved reading it as a kid.

I too would skip reading such material to my child. But it wouldn’t bother me for the child to read it themself when they are older. It’s a funny psychological thing: reading aloud to someone risks carrying some perceived level of approval. A child reading it themself can toss the ideas around in their head, take time to process it, question it etc. and surely they can tell that the prose is whimsical and not serious.

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50. tomp+YR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 07:42:17
>>ec1096+gH
Surely it’s not racist to make fun of every ethnicity?
replies(1): >>dijit+X71
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51. MrScru+mX[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 08:51:40
>>ecshaf+zy
This is totally true. I've read articles in the BBC news about a 'Twitter backlash' against something where the number of tweets was an incredibly miniscule fraction of the population.

I've seen actual physical protests with people on the streets with placards that appear to get less attention from the press. It's incredibly lazy!

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52. Izkata+kZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 09:21:13
>>oblio+7R
I'd put it at middle school. In highschool plenty of students rely on Cliff Notes or whatever the current equivalent is.
replies(1): >>mecha_+aN2
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53. Izkata+NZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 09:27:00
>>joseph+fx
> If anything, I wouldn’t be surprised if the outrage over Hogwarts Legacy increased sales of the game. I don’t know if I would have heard about it at all if not for the outrage machine.

It wasn't in the file I have of upcoming games until that happened, so you can definitely also include me. It'll be on Switch later in the year, I'll be waiting for then.

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54. throw_+n01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 09:32:45
>>Samoye+WB
Men may be have a crisis of identity but women still expect their husbands to be the main breadwinners and suffer from the mismatch of expectation and reality too. Women avoid marrying men who earn less and have no potential to earn more.

As a result I'd expect a lot of single men with below average income and a lot of single women with above average income who struggle to find worthy men. Statistically it is impossible meet two condition at once: 1. women on average earn at leas as much as men 2. In a family a husband has income higher than a wife.

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55. lozeng+O01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 09:39:07
>>bitcur+AE
OK, but how does an Indian child feel reading that, who has their name mispronounced every day (sometimes carelessly, sometimes with profuse apologies, sometimes deliberately), and knowing that Pondicherry could never be the name of an Indian prince?
replies(2): >>chaost+ia1 >>tekla+Xx1
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56. dijit+X71[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 10:49:38
>>tomp+YR
I can think of times it can be.

“All white people are slave owners”

“All black people love watermelon”

“All jews love money”

“All indians love curry”

etc.

Even if you’re not picking on a single group, you can still be perpetuating untrue (and even potentially harmful) stereotypes.

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57. muyuu+281[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 10:50:06
>>Samoye+WB
it really is for both, and it's not two independent crises; they're two mutually interdependent crises that reinforce each other
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58. chaost+Z81[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 10:59:08
>>bentco+5y
Why not explain the historical context of these books instead? (That’s I what do with my children.) My children appreciate the transparency and extra discussion. That leads to a better longer term outcome for society than with the ease and convenience that censorship provides. History’s mistakes tend to repeat when society forgets them. We can’t rely on educational institutions doing our job for us since the same trend of censorship is happening in their realm.
replies(2): >>bentco+zK1 >>Beldin+9M1
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59. chaost+ia1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 11:10:02
>>lozeng+O01
How do children of any specific minority feel when they read historical accounts of racial injustice against their people? Probably really terrible, and maybe even scared. Should they not learn about that history because it makes them feel horrible? That would be extremely unwise since the mistakes of history tend happen again once society forgets.

Old works of fiction also belong in historical narrative because it helps give us a window into popular culture at the time.

(Not that this should matter since my argument should stand on its own, but I’m not white. I just want to preempt any accusations.)

replies(1): >>lozeng+b42
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60. chaost+Ta1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 11:16:19
>>TedDoe+oQ
Maybe these parents should do the hard work of teaching their kids about historical context surrounding this instead of simply censoring it?
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61. dchowe+5n1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 13:18:45
>>espere+gR
"traditional" may have been the word closer to what he was looking for.
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62. unmole+It1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 14:19:03
>>Samoye+tC
> The thing with hogwarts legacy is that the minorities who are affected are like 1% of the population.

There is not a single person anywhere in the world who is negatively affected by Hogwarts Legacy.

replies(1): >>ryandr+HQ1
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63. tekla+Xx1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 14:49:19
>>lozeng+O01
They deal with it knowing that the world is a complex place.

My name was romanized in a incorrect way a hundred years ago and technically the entire English speaking world mispronounces it. I deal with it by not being a goddamn baby about it. And yes, I figured this out when I was 10.

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64. bentco+zK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 16:13:18
>>chaost+Z81
Fair enough, and I applaud your approach, but IMO there's a time and place, and bedtime wasn't one of those times or places I wanted to get into these kinds of discussions.
replies(1): >>chaost+S62
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65. Beldin+9M1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 16:21:29
>>chaost+Z81
Because there are enough (a veritable deluge of) alternatives that do not require extra work on my part.

Which is probably why the Dahl copyright holders are doing this(1). Not to appease some sort of modern sensibilities, but to make money. Apparently they think the investment will pay off.

(1) a less money-focused reason could be because they truly believe these stories deserve to be shared in the future, and see the things they changed as barriers to that goal while of little import to the message. But again, they think this step will "pay off" - in continued popularity / enduring part of culture then.

replies(1): >>chaost+AN1
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66. chaost+AN1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 16:28:34
>>Beldin+9M1
Maybe read other books instead of helping destroy classics?

Yeah, I agree that the copyright holders are acting rationally, but long term this will destroy our democracies. A key premise of Fahrenheit 451 is that they end up with sanctioned book burnings because of something boring like political correctness.

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67. ryandr+HQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 16:46:08
>>unmole+It1
I don't understand the drama around that video game, and at this point, I don't think I want to understand what it's about. I did a few Internet searches and it's totally unclear what's wrong with the game, or what minorities are portrayed badly in it. The best I've come up with is: "The game is based on a fictional world written by an author who tweeted something bad, and even though the author has nothing to do with the game, we're going to boycott the game." Is that really all there is to it?
replies(1): >>Gigach+JB2
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68. biztos+6U1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 17:00:30
>>oblio+9R
At least in the Dahl case, they're explicitly trying to change the tone of the works, and not just the "content" -- whatever that word is supposed to mean in the context of literature.

Everybody's family is different, but my childhood self would have been pretty disillusioned to discover my parents censoring books on my behalf. I really can't see how that's a good lesson for the kids, especially when you can just buy contemporary works that are as PC/woke (or not) as you want them to be.

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69. lozeng+b42[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 17:55:36
>>chaost+ia1
The point of the book is to entertain, not to make someone feel scared and like an outsider. Dahl also made changes for this reason.
replies(1): >>chaost+C62
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70. chaost+C62[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 18:09:49
>>lozeng+b42
That’s not the only point of fictional works including Dahl’s. Often there are allegorical messages, themes, and satire.

It’s not constructive to stick children’s heads into the ground, especially when that self-chosen ignorance will lead to much worse societal outcomes long term.

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71. chaost+S62[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 18:11:00
>>bentco+zK1
Maybe read other books instead of helping destroy classics and advancing societal censorship?
72. mansio+Fs2[view] [source] 2023-02-19 20:29:59
>>tptace+(OP)
They are mostly dead and unable to argue on behalf of their works.

But they were just old white cisgender oppressors, so who cares what they would think?

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73. Gigach+JB2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 21:34:34
>>ryandr+HQ1
That’s it.
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74. mecha_+aN2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 23:01:18
>>Izkata+kZ
To be fair a lot of students don't bother to read books school assigns as textsx because the way schools run things actually reading, engaging, and thinking about it is a disadvantage. There are certain themes and points your teachers want you to mention in your answers and any analysis outside of that will be considered "incorrect" or given lower marks, even if they relate to the text and the theme being studied.
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75. red-ir+Xm3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-20 04:50:59
>>oblio+9R
Then you, like, realize it's an older book and deal with the fact that it may not 100% line up with your modern expectations.

Especially if it's just 0.001% of the content.

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76. red-ir+xg4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-20 14:37:19
>>joseph+IF
> - Authors like Roald Dahl are having their work retroactively edited to "meet modern norms".

This was done by his estate, as a way to sell more books and/or to get it made as a netflix series. Capitalism drove this decision, not 'wokeness'

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77. robjan+Pz4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-20 16:28:10
>>bla3+xu
Wouldn't a preface achieve a similar outcome without changing the original work? The conversation about things having changed is valuable as it demonstrates how society is progressing.
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