zlacker

[parent] [thread] 77 comments
1. suctio+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-12-30 08:23:46
I couldn't disagree more with this piece, especially the idea of a "draft #4" where you go through what you've written and replace all "pedestrian" words with less common ones from the dictionary. I know these writers, and how they "write" - it's painful to read and oozes pretentiousness. You can always tell when someone tries to fake having a wider vocabulary.
replies(14): >>elric+K >>adzm+k1 >>jacobo+S1 >>functi+82 >>Timwi+O2 >>kragen+M4 >>gorgoi+a6 >>boffin+X6 >>Veen+vb >>froh+3f >>icambr+ih >>tomxor+ON >>DarylZ+sq1 >>dreamc+i72
2. elric+K[view] [source] 2021-12-30 08:34:33
>>suctio+(OP)
> I couldn't disagree more with this piece, especially the idea of a "draft #4" where you go through what you've written and replace all plain words with difficult ones. I know these writers, and how they "write" - it's painful to read, they want to make themselves seem better than they are. You can always tell when someone tries to pretend to know more words than they really do.
replies(1): >>Veen+k84
3. adzm+k1[view] [source] 2021-12-30 08:40:12
>>suctio+(OP)
The whole point here is not to mindlessly replace words but to be able to find words that more accurately describe what you are trying to convey. The expanded definitions and examples are great starting points for digging deeper into both the language and the underlying motivation.
replies(1): >>suctio+R1
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4. suctio+R1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 08:46:27
>>adzm+k1
I understand it wasn't meant to be "mindlessly", I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth.

Still, if you don't have the more accurate word in your vocabulary, then don't use it. It will sound stilted and unnatural in the context of your sentence.

replies(4): >>asxd+j2 >>pdpi+x2 >>konsch+k3 >>boffin+j7
5. jacobo+S1[view] [source] 2021-12-30 08:46:50
>>suctio+(OP)
Before folks vote up this facile, misguided criticism, at least read the referenced essay https://jsomers.net/mcphee-draft-no-4.pdf

The whole point of published writing is to put enough effort into one-to-many communication to be clear, concise, and expressive. Finding the right words (not the fanciest or rarest words) helps writing to better transmit intention from author to reader.

Careful revision and editing should be celebrated as expressing appreciation for readers, not sneered at as inauthentic.

replies(2): >>avgcor+25 >>suctio+OF5
6. functi+82[view] [source] 2021-12-30 08:51:19
>>suctio+(OP)
It's not about using less common words. It's about finding variants that better capture the essence what you're trying to say, or add life to the prose.

> He explains that for him, draft #4 is the draft after the painstaking labor of creation is done, when all that’s left is to punch up the language, to replace shopworn words and phrases with stuff that sings.

None of that suggests the writer is looking to use obscure words. I know the writers you're talking about as well; they're just doing it badly, or mimicking what they think a good writer does.

Compare:

Todd opened the curtains and the room got brighter

with:

Todd parted the curtains and sunlight streamed into the room

Both describe the same thing, and both use ordinary words. But the second one paints a better image in your mind. Of the curtains revealing the window behind them, of the way the room gained illumination, etc. It's livelier.

Or, let's say your marketing team proposes a new slogan: "Our intention is to make sure you're satisfied". A good writer takes a crack at it and comes up with "We aim to please".

First one sounds corporate and boring, the second one is friendly and informal. But both use words that everyday people would understand.

If you've just finished a draft of a few thousand words, a lot of dull phrasing will have made it into the writing. While writing those drafts you were focused on the narrative or plot or whatever. Draft #4 is when you comb through it and look for crusty phrases, replacing them with "stuff that sings". It needn't be garrulous ;)

replies(1): >>Retric+pu1
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7. asxd+j2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 08:54:29
>>suctio+R1
I get what you're saying, and agree. When I was in middle school I'd shamelessly use MS Word to replace words in my reports with fancy sounding synonyms that I had never heard of before. I kind of cringe at the memory. But on the other hand, that's also kind of how I got them to be in my vocabulary. I feel like once you commit to a new word in your own writing, you start seeing it everywhere and getting a feel for how it's naturally being used.
replies(1): >>boffin+w7
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8. pdpi+x2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 08:57:05
>>suctio+R1
There’s an important subtlety here — you’re meant to be replacing the words that don’t sit right with you. Your starting point is that it’s already potentially stilted and unnatural and you’re trying to fix that.

Most importantly though — this is a tool, and not a replacement for taste and judgment. Seen from that perspective, it’s a much more potent tool than what a traditional dictionary offers.

replies(2): >>kragen+n3 >>dredmo+4s
9. Timwi+O2[view] [source] 2021-12-30 08:59:27
>>suctio+(OP)
I am so glad to have read your comment. You took the words right out of my mouth. I was very confused by the phrase “diversion of the field” as both “diversion” and “field” can have so many diverse and incompatible meanings.

The author asks: “Who decided that the American public couldn’t handle ‘a soft and fitful luster’?”. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the correct answer to that question is “research”. Linguists and child psychologists have studied the effect of dictionary definitions on learning and realized that simpler definitions are more useful to school students than the author's dream of “stuff that sings”, and that a clear and succinct definition like “a quality that evokes pity or sadness” is more comprehensible, and hence more useful, than whatever Webster's blurb is trying to express.

It should be ironic that the author would use “fustian” as his prime example — a word which, prior to reading this article, I had never encountered before, but after seeing the paraphrasing, “It’s using fancy language where fancy language isn’t called for”, I now know exactly how to describe this piece.

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10. konsch+k3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:06:44
>>suctio+R1
There is a difference between active and passive vocabulary though. Just because you can't think of a word right now, doesn't mean that you and your readers wouldn't easily understand it.

That being said, for anything that you want to be sure your readers understand, "write like you talk". http://www.paulgraham.com/talk.html

replies(1): >>dragon+e4
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11. kragen+n3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:07:15
>>pdpi+x2
To quibble a bit, in American English, Webster's is the traditional dictionary. That's why most American English dictionaries have "Webster" in their name, even if, as Somers writes, their "contents bear no relation to Webster’s original." It's the leaden, imprecise form of definition Somers criticizes that is a break with Webster's tradition.
replies(1): >>pdpi+p5
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12. dragon+e4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:18:30
>>konsch+k3
> That being said, for anything that you want to be sure your readers understand, "write like you talk".

Most people's speech (excluding times where they have carefully written it in a manner different than unprepared speech) not only isn't colorful, it's unclear by words alone, though often helped by tonal, pacing, and, in person, nonverbal cues, and, in interactive contexts, interaction with active audience members, all of which are lost in text.

“Write like you talk” can be good advice for people who are dealing with a couple specific problems (either a form of analysis paralysis stopping them from getting anything written, or habitual overwriting) but otherwise it's just bad advice that ignores the radical differences in medium.

replies(2): >>boffin+o7 >>cookie+A8
13. kragen+M4[view] [source] 2021-12-30 09:27:18
>>suctio+(OP)
> I know these writers, and how they "write" - it's painful to read and oozes pretentiousness.

Are you thinking, perhaps, of Mark Twain? I've never heard anyone say he was "painful to read" or "oozes pretentiousness"; you could be the first. Yet it was Twain who wrote, "the difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter—’tis the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning," which is what this "draft #4" business is all about. (He stole the phrasing from a friend of his, but the sentiment was his own, in a letter in 01888 to George Bainton: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2019/09/02/lightning/)

replies(1): >>cookie+H6
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14. avgcor+25[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:31:17
>>jacobo+S1
> Before folks vote up this facile

Word not found.

Did you mean: shallow?

replies(1): >>boffin+37
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15. pdpi+p5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:35:31
>>kragen+n3
Hah, that is, perhaps, a perfect example of the article’s point!

“Conventional” might’ve been a better choice of word than “traditional”, or something else that better conveys the meaning of “in common usage today”, without the “in the olden days” baggage that comes with “traditional”

replies(2): >>kragen+X5 >>DarylZ+Fs1
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16. kragen+X5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:41:15
>>pdpi+p5
Indeed!
17. gorgoi+a6[view] [source] 2021-12-30 09:42:37
>>suctio+(OP)
Poor writers use a dictionary in the way you describe. Using a dictionary does not make you a poor writer. I was satisfied with the example in the article that this wasn’t just a hack to purvey overly mellifluous verbiage.
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18. taylor+G6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:48:45
>>Timwi+O2
Perhaps modern dictionaries' definitions are more accessible to someone with a child's grasp of English, as you say. However JSomers makes an excellent point, that Webster's definitions are more accurate, as well as being examples of great writing.

One solution - Basic and Advanced dictionaries?

replies(1): >>boffin+G7
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19. cookie+H6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:48:48
>>kragen+M4
Yes, but no doubt you're aware of Twain's companion piece to that quote: “Don't use a five-dollar word when a fifty-cent word will do.”
replies(2): >>kragen+Q6 >>taylor+Oa
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20. kragen+Q6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:50:11
>>cookie+H6
Absolutely, and that is often the point of rummaging through the dictionary. On another occasion Twain put it more... eloquently? Here he does ooze pretentiousness:

> In promulgating your esoteric cogitations, or articulating your superficial sentimentalities and amicable, philosophical or psychological observations, beware of platitudinous ponderosity. Let your conversational communications possess a clarified conciseness, a compact comprehensibleness, coalescent consistency, and a concatenated cogency... Sedulously avoid all polysyllabic profundity, pompous prolixity, psittaceous vacuity, ventriloquial verbosity and vaniloquent vapidity.

McPhee's essay Somers was commenting on warns against the same danger:

> In the search for words, thesauruses are useful things, but they don't talk about the words they list. They are also dangerous. They can lead you to choose a polysyllabic and fuzzy word when a simple and clear one is better. The value of a thesaurus is not to make a writer seem to have a vast vocabulary of recondite words.

So clearly McPhee was not advocating the unnecessary use of hundred-dollar words [correcting for inflation since Twain's time].

replies(2): >>cookie+fa >>yesena+Gj
21. boffin+X6[view] [source] 2021-12-30 09:51:02
>>suctio+(OP)
> You can always tell when someone tries to fake having a wider vocabulary

Is it really 'fake' if they're actually using the words appropriately in whatever prose they are creating?

At what point do you address your own hubris when you encounter a word you don't use, or even understand, and rapidly make the conclusion that the writer is pretentious?

Surely the assessment of anothers pretentiousness happens after examining ones own hubris on the subject matter, or perhaps to put it another way - lack of the sophistication observed in others ... ?

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22. boffin+37[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:52:05
>>avgcor+25
facile | ˈfasʌɪl, ˈfasɪl | adjective 1 ignoring the true complexities of an issue; superficial: facile generalizations. • (of a person) having a superficial or simplistic knowledge or approach: a man of facile and shallow intellect. 2 (especially of success in sport) easily achieved; effortless: a facile seven-lengths victory.

I guess someone needs a better dictionary (this was sourced from Dictionary.app on MacOS, btw...)

replies(2): >>lelant+V8 >>avgcor+La
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23. boffin+j7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:55:47
>>suctio+R1
But, how is one expected to expand ones vocabulary if not by using newly discovered words, appropriately and correctly?

Are you sure you're not just proposing a form of anti-intellectualism more appropriately aligned with the characters in an Orwell dystopia?

Language is important - it should not be degraded by throwing words away - or, indeed, around.

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24. boffin+o7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:56:52
>>dragon+e4
What's some good advice, then?
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25. boffin+w7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:58:10
>>asxd+j2
Exactly. This curmudgeonly proposal that ones vocabulary remain immutable is for the dags and curs whose life has not been rewarded by the virtues of newly discovered language.
replies(2): >>roboca+fF1 >>asxd+uq8
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26. boffin+G7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 09:59:26
>>taylor+G6
One is not a child forever, especially if words old and new carry the years.
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27. cookie+A8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 10:08:44
>>dragon+e4
I don't think it's meant to be taken quite that literally. For me, it's about using vocabulary that you are comfortable with, phrases and rhythms that you use in everyday life. It's not an instruction to transcribe every sound that comes out of your mouth.

People get caught up in the gravity of writing. I've seen amazing pub storytellers churn out unreadable dross because they think they need to be "literary". It's true that there are differences in the mediums, but they're not as great as people make out. Unless it's High Art (in which case everything is up for interpretation), it's all just transferring information from my brain to yours with as little spillage as possible.

Writers "speak" to us most directly when we "hear" their "voice" as we read. And some of the most atrocious nonsense I have read is by people who claimed to have "found their voice". You don't need to look for it. You use it every day. Follow that and you will avoid writing ridiculous, ambiguous things like "diversion of the field" when you really mean "sport".

replies(1): >>BlueTe+ld
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28. lelant+V8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 10:12:14
>>boffin+37
> facile | ˈfasʌɪl, ˈfasɪl | adjective 1 ignoring the true complexities of an issue; superficial: facile generalizations. • (of a person) having a superficial or simplistic knowledge or approach: a man of facile and shallow intellect. 2 (especially of success in sport) easily achieved; effortless: a facile seven-lengths victory.

>

> I guess someone needs a better dictionary (this was sourced from Dictionary.app on MacOS, btw...)

I think you are reinforcing the authors point. That definition most certainly does not present a mental image of prose in which the best word is 'facile'. Instead it makes me think that 'facile' is almost indistinguishable from 'ignorant'.

Compare that definition to the one from Websters 1913-1928 definition:

      Fac"ile (?) a. [L. facilis, prop., capable of being done or made, hence, facile, easy, fr. facere to make, do: cf. F. facile. Srr Fact, and cf. Faculty.] 1. Easy to be done or performed: not difficult; performable or attainable with little labor.

          *Order . . . will render the work facile and delightful.*

      Evelyn.

      2. Easy to be surmounted or removed; easily conquerable; readily mastered.

          *The facile gates of hell too slightly barred.*

      Milton.

      3. Easy of access or converse; mild; courteous; not haughty, austere, or distant; affable; complaisant.

          *I meant she should be courteous, facile, sweet.*

      B. Jonson.

      4. Easily persuaded to good or bad; yielding; ductile to a fault; pliant; flexible.

          *Since Adam, and his facile consort Eve,
          Lost Paradise, deceived by me.*

      Milton.

          *This is treating Burns like a child, a person of so facile a disposition as not to be trusted without a keeper on the king's highway.*

      Prof. Wilson.

      5. Ready; quick; expert; as, he is facile in expedients; he wields a facile pen.

Which definition more accurately represents the word as it is used in prose? 'Facile' and 'delightful' go together quite well. 'Ignorant' and 'delightful' do not.
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29. lelant+P9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 10:19:10
>>Timwi+O2
The goal of the modern dictionary is quite different to the goal of Websters original dictionary.

The modern (english) dictionary aims to serve as a list of definitions and meanings of words for someone who requires a list of definitions of words. This means that the explanations and example usages have to be short and simple because the person using it may not have a full command of the language.

The original Websters dictionary, as far as I can tell, serves to document the language for existing native-language users. This lets it be more expressive in the words definition (because you can use more expressive language), with the expectation that the user of the dictionary already has some sort of mastery with the language.

replies(1): >>netmar+9b
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30. cookie+fa[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 10:22:49
>>kragen+Q6
Sure, I have zero doubt that McPhee is a goldmine of good writing advice. I don't know who Somers is and it feels to me like the heart of TFA is basically a hack to make your writing seem more "literary".
replies(1): >>kragen+Jd
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31. boffin+ma[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 10:23:37
>>lelant+V8
Indeed, this demonstrates that words are note code - their meaning changes with use over time, unlike software.

We can certainly compare definitions and arrive at our own conclusions about the effectiveness of communication their usage imbues - but an omitted definition? We cannot argue over words that are not defined, whether by omission in literature (dictionaries) or by virtue of the reader being, to put it blunt, simply too lazy to check another dictionary ..

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32. avgcor+Fa[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 10:26:31
>>lelant+V8
See also Spanish “fácil” which means “easy”.

Some apparently less common senses that Merriam Webster gave me:

- archaic : mild or pleasing in manner or disposition

- ready, fluent

- poised, assured

So what’s a “facile piece of writing”? Something that was easy to write? Maybe too easy to write? Or easy to read? (Or too easy to read…)

Well, something being easy is definitely an insult in the minds of pretentious people.

replies(2): >>Quekid+sp >>goblin+Sc1
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33. avgcor+La[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 10:27:29
>>boffin+37
> [tl;dr: shallow]

Exactly.

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34. taylor+Oa[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 10:27:52
>>cookie+H6
Giving words a cost is a great way of thinking about how to write. Make expensive words pay their way - they must add enough value to the writing to justify their "cost".
replies(1): >>kragen+ve
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35. netmar+9b[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 10:30:32
>>lelant+P9
I'd say that modern dictionaries are made for readers, while older ones were for writers.
replies(1): >>lelant+0Y2
36. Veen+vb[view] [source] 2021-12-30 10:35:00
>>suctio+(OP)
The goal is not to replace common words with less common ones, but imprecise words with more precise ones, especially those with connotations and implications that more closely fit the surrounding writing.

There's a place for plain, utilitarian writing, but your complaint is a bit like saying Vermeer is a pretentious wanker because he paid more attention to colour and symbolism than the illustrator who did the images for my microwave's instruction manual.

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37. BlueTe+ld[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 10:56:45
>>cookie+A8
> You don't need to look for it. You use it every day.

This only goes for young kids in their native language.

In the other cases, it would just take too much time to get better at it, without that minimum of effort. (Which you might not be forced to do after high school.)

Not to mention that language is not just for communicating, but also for thinking.

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38. kragen+Jd[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 11:00:43
>>cookie+fa
Somers, too, implicitly criticizes "using fancy language where fancy language isn’t called for"—"fustian" isn't a compliment when used of prose. The adjectives paired with it in Wiktionary tell the story: "Dutch fustian", "wretched fustian", "mere fustian", "genteel fustian which lacks either poetic resonance or demotic realism".

But he doesn't really give any writing advice in his essay. He doesn't recommend that you write fustian or that you write like Hemingway or indeed that you write at all; instead, he recommends that you read the dictionary because it will be fun. So, if we're talking about writing advice, we need to look at McPhee's essay, not Somers's.

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39. kragen+ve[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 11:09:40
>>taylor+Oa
It was a common vernacular figure of speech in Twain's time and for decades afterwards. I haven't ever heard of a writer budgeting a dollar figure for each paragraph and adding up the cost of each sentence.
replies(1): >>taylor+Of
40. froh+3f[view] [source] 2021-12-30 11:15:23
>>suctio+(OP)
That's the key difference between technical writing and literature:

Technical writing needs to be simple, to the point, short sentences, same word for the same concept, always.

Literature has a priviledge of poetic entertainment. It may indulge on linguistic expression and the readers will vote with their feet what they love and what they hate.

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41. shadow+Nf[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 11:23:10
>>lelant+V8
I am not concerned … with offering any facile solution for so complex a problem. —T. S. Eliot

Miss Adebayo visited and said something about grief, something nice-sounding and facile: Grief was the celebration of love, those who could feel real grief were lucky to have loved. —Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Half of a Yellow Sun

“Joker” takes off from a facile premise and descends into incoherent political trolling as a result of scattershot plotting and antics—its director, Todd Phillips, appears not to see what he’s doing. —The New York Times

Unless you read a lot into definition 4 of Webster's, the app dictionary, or even the word 'shallow,' gives a result much more accurate to how I've seen the word actually used. With more than a century and a half since the dictionary was first published, seems like plenty of time for a shift in meaning to happen.

replies(2): >>kragen+di >>howLon+2s
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42. taylor+Of[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 11:23:25
>>kragen+ve
I think what I wrote sounded a bit literal. I don't think anyone really does that "full time" as it were. I was just parroting Mark Twain's phrase really. :-)
43. icambr+ih[view] [source] 2021-12-30 11:37:28
>>suctio+(OP)
John McPhee isn't a pretentious writer at all, though, and I encourage you to try him out to test your theory. Getting rid of pedestrian words doesn't require you to replace them with ostentatious words, merely more vibrant, descriptive ones.
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44. kragen+di[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 11:45:32
>>shadow+Nf
Those quotes give a much better sense of the word's current usage than either dictionary definition, I think. Myself, I find this usage of "facile" grating, preferring Webster's definition, but that's because I spend a lot of time reading Spanish, French, and books from before 01900; Eliot's quote can be plausibly interpreted either way, perhaps showing how the shift began.
replies(1): >>jacobo+sx1
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45. yesena+Gj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 12:03:28
>>kragen+Q6
I have to mention the elephant in the room - how you, kragen, habitually write e.g. "01888" when "1888" will do — you "choose a polysyllabic and fuzzy word when a simple and clear one is better".
replies(1): >>dredmo+ar
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46. Vindic+Hl[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 12:27:34
>>lelant+V8
I'll just toss into the fray the OED entry for Facile:

facile, a.

(ˈfæsaɪl, -ɪl)

Forms: 5–6 facyl(l)e, 6–8 facil(l, 5– facile.

[a. Fr. facile, ad. L. facil-is easy to do; also of persons, easy of access, courteous, easy to deal with, pliant, f. facĕre to do.]

1.1 That can be accomplished with little effort; = easy 11. Now with somewhat disparaging sense. †Formerly used as predicate with inf. phrase as subject, and in phrase facile and easy.

   1483 Caxton Æsop 97 It is facyle to scape out of the handes of the blynd.    1538 Starkey England i. iv. 133 As the one ys ful of hardnes and dyffyculty‥so the other ys facyle and esy.    1577 Holinshed Scot. Chron. I. 449/1 They‥thought it easie and facile to be concluded.    1641 Prynne Antip. Epist. 4, I gathered with no facil labour, the most of those Materials.    1676 Worlidge Cyder (1691) 236 The more facile making of the linnen manufacture.    a 1703 Beveridge Serm. xci. Wks. 1729 II. 126 All other acts of piety will be facile and easy to him.    1856 Froude Hist. Eng. I. 357 Having won, as he supposed, his facile victory.    1876 C. M. Davies Unorth. Lond. 250 The work appears facile.
2.2 Of a course of action, a method: Presenting few difficulties.

   1559 W. Cuningham Cosmogr. Glasse 109 The waye is very facile, and without great laboure.    1607 Topsell Four-f. Beasts (1673) 152 Yet have they found out this facile and ready course.    1639 Fuller Holy War iii. ii. (1647) 112 His Holinesse hath a facile and cheap way both to gratifie and engage ambitious spirits.    a 1718 Penn Tracts Wks. 1726 I. 703 It will render the Magistrates Province more facil.    1807 Vancouver Agric. Devon (1813) 463 Baiting‥in the manner performed on the continent, is an infinitely more economical and facile mode of administering refreshment to a jaded animal.    1860 Tyndall Glac. ii. ix. 271 The facile modes of measurement which we now employ.
†b.2.b Easy to understand or to make use of. Obs.

   1531 Elyot Gov. i. v, As touchynge grammere there is at this day better introductions and more facile, than euer before were made.    1579 Digges Stratiot. ii. vii. 47 We have by the former Rules produced this playne and facile Aequation.    1633 Sc. Acts Chas. I, c. 34 The short and facile grammer.    1644 Milton Educ. 100 Those poets which are now counted most hard, will be both facil and pleasant.    1676 Worlidge Cyder (1691) 103 To make this curious Machine more useful and facile.    1786 T. Woolston Let. in Fenning Yng. Algebraists' Comp. (1787) p. v, It having been long considered as a most facile Introduction to Algebra.    1797 A. M. Bennett Beggar Girl (1813) II. 24 The harp and the piano-forte were equally facile to Rosa.
3.3 Moving without effort, unconstrained; flowing, running, or working freely; fluent, ready.

   1605 B. Jonson Volpone iii. ii, This author‥has so modern and facile a vein Fitting the time and catching the court⁓ear.    1657 Austen Fruit Trees ii. 204 One man excells‥in a facile and ready expression.    1796 Ld. Sheffield in Ld. Auckland's Corr. (1862) III. 371 Your‥happy facile expression in writing.    1820 L. Hunt Indicator No. 31 (1822) I. 246 On the facile wings of our sympathy.    1865 Swinburne Atalanta 1641 Deaths‥with facile feet avenged.    1873 Symonds Grk. Poets v. 144 Stesichorus was one of those facile and abundant natures who excel in many branches of art.    1886 Stubbs Med. & Mod. Hist. iii. 57 To the facile pen of an Oxford man we owe the production of the most popular manual of our history.
4.4 Of persons, dispositions, speech, etc.: †a.4.a Easy of access or converse, affable, courteous (obs.). b.4.b Characterized by ease of behaviour.

   c 1590 Greene Fr. Bacon i. iii, Facile and debonair in all his deeds.    1638 Featly Transubt. 219 A young Gentleman of a facile and affable disposition.    1782 F. Burney Diary 12 Aug., My father is all himself—gay, facile, and sweet.    1844 Disraeli Coningsby iii. v, Manners, though facile, sufficiently finished.    1876 Holland Sev. Oaks x. 134 He was positive, facile, amiable.
c.4.c Not harsh or severe, gentle, lenient, mild. Const. to; also to with inf.

   1541 Elyot Image Gov. 88 Your proper nature is mylde, facile, gentyll, and wytty.    1631 Weever Anc. Fun. Mon. 116 She was of a more facile and better inclined disposition.    1655 Fuller Ch. Hist. v. v. §7 Q. Elizabeth‥A Princesse most facil to forgive injuries.    1670 Milton Hist. Eng. Wks. 1738 II. 80 However he were facil to his Son, and seditious Nobles‥yet his Queen he treated not the less honourably.    1851 Sir F. Palgrave Norm. & Eng. I. 297 The guilty sons were too happy to avail themselves of his facile tenderness.
5.5 Easily led or wrought upon; flexible, pliant; compliant, yielding.

   1511 Colet Serm. Conf. & Ref. in Phenix (1708) II. 8 Those canons‥that do learn you‥not to be too facile in admitting into holy orders.    1556 Lauder Tractate 251 Be nocht ouir facill for to trow Quhill that ȝe try the mater throw.    c 1610 Sir J. Melvil Mem. (1683) 103 Facil Princes‥promote them [Flatterers] above faithful Friends.    1648 J. Beaumont Psyche xvii. cxcvii, Alas, That facil Hearts should to themselves be foes.    1671 Milton P.R. i. 51 Adam and his facil consort Eve Lost Paradise.    1805 Foster Ess. ii. vi. 192 The tame security of facile friendly coincidence.
b.5.b in Scots Law. ‘Possessing that softness of disposition that he is liable to be easily wrought upon by others’ (Jam.).

   1887 Grierson Dickson's Tract. Evidence §35 Proof that the granter of a deed was naturally weak and facile‥has been held to reflect the burden of proving that [etc.].
c.5.c transf. Of things: Easily moved, yielding, ‘easily surmountable; easily conquerable’ (J.).

   1667 Milton P.L. iv. 967 Henceforth not to scorne The facil gates of hell too slightly barrd.
†6.6 quasi-adv. Easily; without difficulty. Obs.

   c 1523 Wolsey in Fiddes Life ii. (1726) 114 His countries, whose parts non of the Lords or Commons would soe facile inclyne unto.    1548 Hall Chron. (1809) 316 Whatsoever were purposed to hym they‥might easely se and facile heare the same.    1560 Rolland Crt. Venus ii. 80 The Muses‥mair facill ȝour mater will consaif, Fra time that thay heir ȝour enarratiue.
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47. Quekid+sp[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 13:08:26
>>avgcor+Fa
It obviously has a shared history with the Spanish word (comes from Latin. The negative connotation in the phrase "facile piece of writing" would be "over-easy", as in: "over-simplified". ("Too easy" doesn't quite have the right connotation.)

When used derogatorily it also carries an implication that something is 'pretending to be easy' while not actually being so. It might also tie in with Facsimile, but that might be a false etymology on my part. Which I guess ties this back to pretentiousness, but not quite in the way you meant to :).

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48. dredmo+ar[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 13:23:51
>>yesena+Gj
Y10K proofing. It's a practice of the Long Now Foundation:

https://longnow.org/ideas/02013/12/31/long-now-years-five-di...

replies(2): >>Anon10+Ls >>bdowli+qG1
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49. howLon+2s[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 13:32:14
>>shadow+Nf
It's interesting how the modern usage hasn't crossed over into it's noun form, "facility," which, though essentially the same word, has overtones of competence rather than laziness or ignorance. (Or maybe no one uses that word, and it's sense hasn't changed bc I only read it in books?)
replies(1): >>jacobo+8r2
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50. dredmo+4s[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 13:32:40
>>pdpi+x2
"He has never been known to use a word that might cause the reader to check with a dictionary to see if it is properly used"

-- William Faulkner, of Ernest Hemmingway

"Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words? He thinks I don’t know the ten-dollar words. I know them all right. But there are older and simpler and better words, and those are the ones I use."

-- Hemmingway, of Faulkner

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/01/26/dictionary/

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51. Anon10+Ls[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 13:41:39
>>dredmo+ar
Regardless of what it's for, writing 5 digit years is the kind of choice that makes your writing "ooze pretentiousness" just like choosing to use hundred dollar words last seen a century ago.
replies(2): >>mlyle+ai1 >>kragen+Wh2
52. tomxor+ON[view] [source] 2021-12-30 16:12:56
>>suctio+(OP)
Although I agree with the siblings, in that (done well) it should better convey the intended meaning, while also capturing the readers imagination with a little artistry - I know what you are getting at.

Sometimes I come across those articles, trying way too hard to add flourish to their writing, but they only achieve a veneer. It does not improve their communication and as you say, it's entirely pretentious. But these are not the same types of writing, one is genuine, the other mimicry.

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53. barbec+NU[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 16:54:29
>>Timwi+O2
I was advised in AP English to "eschew obfuscation."
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54. goblin+Sc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 18:15:17
>>avgcor+Fa
Words are lossy.

Thinking ambiguity can be removed if you only use common words is misguided. You will get writing that is bland and lacks nuance and you may limit the palette of what you can convey, but even then without a fixed exhaustive definition for every word there is ambiguity in shades of meaning.

For example, what exactly does “common” mean above? “bland”? (writing is not a food, is it?) what precisely does it mean for writing to have “nuance”? and so on.

It depends on overall style, but I generally enjoy writing that thoughtfully sprinkles around less common or even invented (DFW) words. It keeps me on my toes—human memory is not perfect, if I haven’t had to consult the dictionary in a while then my vocabulary must be degrading.

replies(1): >>avgcor+Zi2
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55. mlyle+ai1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 18:40:57
>>Anon10+Ls
Nah. It's a little conceit. It's a small dash of eccentricity to add spice to an unusual point. It invites one to ask the question, "why do you habitually use 5 digit years?"

You, on the other hand, are veering directly into ad-hom and that's not nice. We can talk about how we like to use language without calling out other peoples' language choices.

56. DarylZ+sq1[view] [source] 2021-12-30 19:19:11
>>suctio+(OP)
> You can always tell when someone tries to fake having a wider vocabulary.

Doubt it. I know I've been accused of using a thesaurus when I was just compulsively and thoughtlessly posting stream of consciousness on social media.

I think people who think such things just have small vocabularies. They can't imagine others have any fluency with words they don't know.

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57. DarylZ+Fs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 19:31:02
>>pdpi+p5
"common"
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58. Retric+pu1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 19:41:00
>>functi+82
The issue is authors who spend to much time with a thesaurus rarely actually understand the words their choosing. It’s the difference between an artist painting using charcoal and a child using markers. The second is more colorful, yet crude.

Further writing is about the goal, describing a hallucination using stilted language for example can actually make things more vivid. Todd opened the curtains and the room got brighter. Was the room illuminated by the sun, moon, streetlights, or did the walls suddenly glow? We don’t know as things have been abstracted to show effects rather than a clear causal chain. The important bit is to be making stylistic choices not simply imitating competence and hoping nobody noticed the difference.

replies(1): >>functi+Iw1
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59. functi+Iw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 19:51:39
>>Retric+pu1
Yeah those authors exist. I don’t think McPhee or the OP are among them.

A thesaurus is a tool like any other. A good writer knows how to wield it, poor ones will just cut themselves.

The “Draft #4” methodology doesn’t in itself suggest that the writer is good or bad.

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60. jacobo+sx1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 19:56:11
>>kragen+di
Facile in modern English means "too easy", like a shortcut that leads to the wrong destination.

This meaning has diverged from French/Spanish, where the word still just means "easy".

replies(1): >>kragen+7g2
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61. roboca+fF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 20:44:43
>>boffin+w7
Making up words is fun for the writer, but it often not fun for the reader. Like the popular perception of poetry. Few people have a deep knowledge of their own language or other languages, so their inventions come across as childish.

Your own usage of “dags” is frustrating because as a reader from Australasia, “dag” has a common meaning. Example usages: “You’re a dag”, “Fred Dagg”, “rattle your dags”, “clean up those daggy sheep”. And back on topic, the common meaning in Australasia is not mentioned in the online American Merriam-Webster dictionary!

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62. bdowli+qG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-30 20:52:52
>>dredmo+ar
Poe's Law in action. Any elaborate parody not clearly marked as such will be taken seriously by someone.
63. dreamc+i72[view] [source] 2021-12-30 23:37:59
>>suctio+(OP)
Go read any book by John McPhee (the writer in question) and if you are not delighted I will donate $20 to the charity of your choice.

I recommend Oranges but they're all quite good.

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64. kragen+7g2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-31 00:44:20
>>jacobo+sx1
The fact that you wrote a comment restating my own leads me to suspect that my own comment was unclear. Thank you for clarifying it.
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65. kragen+Wh2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-31 00:59:21
>>Anon10+Ls
I venture to aver, you pusillanimous chop-logic, that upon undertaking to investigate the situation in greater profundity, you would in all likelihood discover that you are taking the entire thing entirely too seriously!
replies(1): >>dredmo+ZN2
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66. avgcor+Zi2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-31 01:10:20
>>goblin+Sc1
> Thinking ambiguity can be removed if you only use common words is misguided.

Overall, based on all of the comments in this subthread, it seems that “facile” is most often meant simply mean “shallow”… don’t use a fancy word where a simple one will suffice.

replies(1): >>goblin+yW2
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67. jacobo+8r2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-31 02:28:42
>>howLon+2s
Besides 'facile' and 'facility', there are a few other words from the same root: 'faculty', 'facultative', 'facilitate'.

It is pretty common for words to diverge in meaning and drop old connotations as they find distinct niches.

replies(1): >>howLon+KY2
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68. dredmo+ZN2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-31 06:39:33
>>kragen+Wh2
Rule 00005!
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69. goblin+yW2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-31 08:48:27
>>avgcor+Zi2
Thinking there can be equivalence between any two words is basically ignoring all I wrote in the previous comment.
replies(1): >>avgcor+gA6
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70. lelant+0Y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-31 09:08:03
>>netmar+9b
> I'd say that modern dictionaries are made for readers, while older ones were for writers.

Nicely put. Sums up entire paragraphs worth of information in a single simple sentence that effectively conveys the idea.

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71. howLon+KY2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-31 09:16:21
>>jacobo+8r2
Yes, but they're not just from the same root, they're different forms of the same word. Ones the noun, ones the verb. They have exactly the same meaning (except for their grammatical function) but the connotations are almost opposite.
replies(1): >>jacobo+8v5
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72. Veen+k84[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-12-31 18:09:12
>>elric+K
I have a word you may want to add to your vocabulary.

chippy

ADJECTIVE

informal

1. resentful or oversensitive about being perceived as inferior

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73. jacobo+8v5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-01 06:07:07
>>howLon+KY2
I don’t know much about Latin grammar, but from what I can tell both facultas (whence faculty) and facilitas (whence facility) were standard noun forms of the Latin word facilis. Both of these nouns come to English from Latin via French, and neither was newly generated in English.

In Latin (and thence English) facultas meant ability, while facilitas meant easiness.

The adjective facilis comes from the verb facio (to make or do; from the same PIE root as the English verb 'do'), and meant something that can be done/made; something easy, ready, or quick; or someone friendly, courteous, or compliant.

replies(1): >>howLon+Qbc
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74. suctio+OF5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-01 08:30:06
>>jacobo+S1
Lmao
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75. avgcor+gA6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-01 16:49:06
>>goblin+yW2
Of course there isn’t an equivalency: at the very least the choice of words in the face of synonyms is meant to signal something beyond what the word and sentence itself is supposed to communicate, like “I sound intelligent”.
replies(1): >>goblin+cO6
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76. goblin+cO6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-01 18:16:19
>>avgcor+gA6
Just because you didn’t expect to encounter a word, why would you assume the author dwelled on the choice and consulted thesaurus specifically to impress you, and it didn’t come as the most appropriate word for the occasion like your choice would to you?
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77. asxd+uq8[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-02 09:31:34
>>boffin+w7
I guess I should have emphasized that the operative phrase was

> getting a feel for how it's naturally being used.

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78. howLon+Qbc[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-03 15:30:42
>>jacobo+8v5
Sorry, just saw this. You're absolutely right about the etymology, but generally the suffix "-ity" in English serves to make an abstract noun out of an adjective. So it seems more likely to me that "facility" is derived from the English "facile" than developing alongside it. All that said, its just speculation, and facultas->facility/facilitas->facile would explain the subtle difference in meaning.
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