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[parent] [thread] 40 comments
1. BadHum+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-09-16 12:23:28
People desperately want Amazon to be failing but it just isn't. They made 30 billion in profit in 2023. The rumors of Amazon's demise are greatly exaggerated.
replies(3): >>Action+q8 >>schmid+Y8 >>dijit+za
2. Action+q8[view] [source] 2024-09-16 13:28:48
>>BadHum+(OP)
It’s not that people are wanting them to fail, just that they are being so anti everything whilst their competitors amass.

I’ve got friends who’ve moved from AWS-centric roles to Azure-centric, prime is a dead product walking, twitch is unprofitable, Alexa is dead, and their original business is squeezing users, drivers, and employees. A strong viable Amazon.com alternative and they are done.

replies(1): >>amadeu+0b
3. schmid+Y8[view] [source] 2024-09-16 13:32:17
>>BadHum+(OP)
Yes, yes, unified billing and security generally make up for how much Amazon's technical offerings suck donkey balls and those network effects are why we let them get away with pushing such god awful product. We all know how this works. We don't have to like it.
replies(2): >>michae+ha >>dylan6+ll
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4. michae+ha[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 13:40:57
>>schmid+Y8
> Amazon's technical offerings suck donkey balls and those network effects are why we let them get away with pushing such god awful product.

What are we comparing to here?

Google Cloud? Azure? Linode? Openstack? OVH? Oracle Cloud? Hetzner?

They all suck too, just in different ways.

replies(1): >>schmid+Vq
5. dijit+za[view] [source] 2024-09-16 13:42:44
>>BadHum+(OP)
I mean, are we so unwise as to think those things are mutually exclusive?

I can think of a dozen quotes related to the decline of a thing being "impossible", and then sudden.

Enron for example had it's best year, right before it suddenly stopped existing.

"The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long", and "The night is darkest before the dawn" both relate to things appearing one way because the end is more likely.

Amazon is mostly inertia, they are user hostile to a fault, which is a far removal from what made them huge in the first place. Normally when there has been such a reversal in a companies principles: it's the beginning of the end.

I'm not desperate for it, I couldn't care less. But what we will witness now is the power of capital to beget capital, don't be fooled into thinking Amazon is innovative.

Don't anthropomorphise the lawnmower.

replies(2): >>geodel+Tg >>BadHum+km
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6. amadeu+0b[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 13:45:39
>>Action+q8
Sure, a store where you can buy literally everything and have it delivered in days, and they're done.
replies(6): >>Action+0d >>Ajedi3+Hd >>Shikad+ge >>DrillS+5g >>ben_w+Gg >>silisi+9t
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7. Action+0d[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 13:58:00
>>amadeu+0b
You've just described a whole slew of online stores, their logistics aren't on par yet, but they will be.
replies(1): >>jdiez1+cd
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8. jdiez1+cd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 13:59:09
>>Action+0d
Logistics is definitely Amazon's biggest moat. Second biggest would probably be their customer service.
replies(3): >>dylan6+8k >>abofh+hl >>Heatra+vq
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9. Ajedi3+Hd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 14:03:03
>>amadeu+0b
*in hours, for certain product/location combos.
replies(1): >>ssl-3+us
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10. Shikad+ge[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 14:07:38
>>amadeu+0b
I mean, they probably don't need their feet to continue making money and selling things online. IBM still makes money after all
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11. DrillS+5g[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 14:17:56
>>amadeu+0b
How'd that work out for the Sears Catalog?
replies(2): >>ssl-3+kq >>DrillS+Qs9
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12. ben_w+Gg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 14:20:45
>>amadeu+0b
"Delivered in days", my experience is that most deliveries get a "we couldn't find you" notice in my letter box, get bounced to a collection point, and that the collection point is often further away than the physical shop selling the same item. And two days after scheduled delivery.

Unless I want to buy something weird, in which case there's also a good chance delivery fails entirely for some reason and the order gets cancelled on the other side.

replies(3): >>dleink+fp >>cridde+hp >>DrillS+3n4
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13. geodel+Tg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 14:21:37
>>dijit+za
Good points. I mean this is how we get old or get bankrupt. First slowly and then suddenly.

One point that is not mentioned is that Amazon is making boatload of money by advertising. Their ad revenue is 50 billion dollars and rapidly rising. This make them look invincible and total shit at the same time.

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14. dylan6+8k[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 14:40:30
>>jdiez1+cd
Customer service is just a bot, and anyone can have one of those
replies(1): >>jdiez1+ml
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15. abofh+hl[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 14:45:56
>>jdiez1+cd
Which, to be honest, has been downhill - amazon used to be super focused on customer satisfaction, but these days pretty much every interaction I've had with amazon makes me sad - pages of promoted products before I hit the product I'm actually searching for, account execs that don't seem to understand that they're their to fix problems not create them, and honestly AWS is lagging -- too many teams fighting for promotion by creating new services, nobody supporting or maintaining the plumbing.

I make most of my money supporting companies on AWS, but I've stopped recommending it to new shops largely for the same reasons - if you're not big enough for them to knock on your door, they won't answer when you knock on theirs.

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16. dylan6+ll[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 14:46:29
>>schmid+Y8
I know we'll never know the answer, but I'd love to see a break down of AWS billings from expensive misconfiguration of cloud settings. After the recent Accident Forgiveness post from an AWS competitor it does seem like an area that AWS happily accepts. Small bootstrapped start up hires a 3rd party "expert" suggested directly by AWS to be experts. The 3rd party doesn't actually know everything and causes a 3000x increase in monthly cloud expense. Small startup uses their paid AWS support which resolves the expensive issue in under 10 minutes. The 3000x increased bill is still due. </rant> That's a story as old as time (of cloud), but it's gotta be a nice way to earn bonus for product managers
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17. jdiez1+ml[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 14:46:46
>>dylan6+8k
What I mean by their customer service moat is that they can afford to give full refunds at the slightest inconvenience to the customer.
replies(1): >>dylan6+Am
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18. BadHum+km[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 14:53:47
>>dijit+za
Nothing in my comment suggest that Amazon dying is "impossible," but don't try to will into existence this idea that Amazon is a wind gust away from it all tumbling down. People are trying to say Amazon is dying and their business is in the mud but the financials don't support that idea.
replies(1): >>dijit+2P
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19. dylan6+Am[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 14:55:35
>>jdiez1+ml
I've never looked at the market place terms vendors agree to, but I can imagine return claw backs are a thing. Very similar to credit card merchant agreements for charge backs. A very lax return policy on Amazon doesn't have to be expensive to Amazon.
replies(1): >>jdiez1+zr
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20. dleink+fp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:15:02
>>ben_w+Gg
I wonder what country you're in?
replies(1): >>ben_w+6G
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21. cridde+hp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:15:23
>>ben_w+Gg
Your experience is unusual.

In 2023 I placed exactly 100 orders and this year I'm probably going to hit the same number. I've had very few problems over the years (my first order was March 29, 2000). During that time, I've lived in a bunch of different cities across three states.

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22. ssl-3+kq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:20:50
>>DrillS+5g
Sears was destroyed by standard corporate raider tactics. I don't think that they serve as the example that you may think they do.
replies(2): >>mindsl+ut >>dh2022+3v1
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23. Heatra+vq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:21:42
>>jdiez1+cd
What customer service? It's impossible to get a human
replies(1): >>jdiez1+6r
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24. schmid+Vq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:23:28
>>michae+ha
Individually developed domain-specific products. Even ones that long predate the hyperscaler offerings are often much better... except for billing and security and integration. Not through any fault of the developers, but integrating those things takes work and the ability to reduce that work is a killer advantage of the hyperscalers. But the hyperscalers know this so they invest less in making the core product any good, so it isn't. Reduction in billing/security/integration suck -> increase in technical suck. That's my whole point.
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25. jdiez1+6r[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:24:31
>>Heatra+vq
Where are you based? I just talked to a rep on the phone last week about a missing package (EU/DE). I've also had pretty frictionless interactions with CS over chat.
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26. jdiez1+zr[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:28:13
>>dylan6+Am
I'm not just talking about money. They can set whatever terms they like with vendors because selling on Amazon is a very attractive business for independent dropshippers etc.
replies(1): >>dylan6+Nr
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27. dylan6+Nr[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:29:54
>>jdiez1+zr
How about you describe what your thinking here is, because as of now all your doing is trying to counter my comments by saying "no". You're adding nothing to why you think the moat exists and no other online vendor can compete with it.
replies(1): >>jdiez1+ts
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28. jdiez1+ts[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:33:20
>>dylan6+Nr
I don't have the inclination to hunt for evidence for you. I'm not saying other companies can't do it. But it will be hard because of the capital/scaling/network effect requirements that Amazon has today.

This is my opinion and I'm not trying to convince you of it. Have a nice day.

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29. ssl-3+us[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:33:21
>>Ajedi3+Hd
Yep.

I remember one move I made to a new city. I'd downsized a bunch of my stuff and got settled in pretty quickly. Everything was right with the world except my Harmony remote didn't survive the move and my guitar hanger got left behind.

So I looked at Amazon to at least get a baseline price for these two things, and they offered to deliver both of them to my door in a couple of hours.

I sanity-checked the prices and they were fine.

"What is this wizardry," I thought to myself, when I had both items at my door in a couple of hours.

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30. silisi+9t[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:37:23
>>amadeu+0b
WalMart is like 90% of the way there. They'll bring it right this second, for a fee, or tomorrow for free, for anything in its store. 1 day shipping on anything in its warehouses. The only thing they're missing is the random do-dads I seem to need quite often.

I don't think they have the best name reputation. At least people my age, WalMart is synonymous with cheap and poor quality. But that was before the age of dropshipping and Amazon, where now Walmart's offerings are probably actually better quality than a lot of stuff. IMO they probably should have leveraged Jet there instead, but it is what it is.

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31. mindsl+ut[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 15:39:25
>>ssl-3+kq
I remember my last time walking into a Sears. I figured I'd give it a shot to see if they had anything different than HD/Lowes in the category I was looking at (shop vac attachments). A clerk pointed me to a computer saying "If we don't have it in the store you can order it from our catalog". The computer catalog was literally just searching Amazon listings. That basically confirmed to me that Sears was in a death spiral.
replies(1): >>ssl-3+vy
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32. ssl-3+vy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 16:04:01
>>mindsl+ut
Yep. They were already dead by that point (again, due to standard corporate raider tactics) -- a zombie just awaiting its coup de grâce.

There was a time before that when they had a better web presence for selling regular hardgoods than Amazon (which was still mostly known as just an online book store), and the Sears Parts website was the very first place to look online for manuals, diagrams, parts, and standard accessories for any random household thing (including shop vac attachments).

They also co-founded the Prodigy network back in the 80s when home computers were still very novel and people weren't broadly sure if the concept would ever catch on.

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33. ben_w+6G[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 16:46:26
>>dleink+fp
Germany. Berlin in particular.

Also didn't have very good experiences in the UK (Cambridge and Portsmouth).

replies(1): >>jdiez1+IV
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34. dijit+2P[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 17:40:50
>>BadHum+km
and nothing I wrote suggests that financials and health of the business are linked.

There are countless examples of companies that seem to have a lot of money then die suddenly.

There are plenty of zombie companies (IBM) too, hard to know what this will be, but I wouldn't take financials as an indicator of anything really.

replies(1): >>BadHum+zI1
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35. jdiez1+IV[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 18:20:12
>>ben_w+6G
Also in Berlin (Wedding, previously Moabit) and Amazon has been very reliable except in some odd cases where it’s delayed by a day. DHL on the other hand is a crapshoot.
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36. dh2022+3v1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 21:24:31
>>ssl-3+kq
I used to work at Starbucks in their corporate office building in South Downtown Seattle. The building used to be a Sears warehouse ago [1]. The walls next to the elevator in the ground floor still had printed some sort of "Sears customer contract". It had clauses like "you can return the merchandise if you are not satisfied with no questions asked. We will refund you for any shipping charges when returning merchandise". Or "if you cannot find it in our warehouse you can have delivered from our catalog to your home". These slogans reminded me of Amazon and their customer obsession.

Sears could have been Amazon if they kept their customer obsession.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sears,_Roebuck_%26_Company_Mai...

and

https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/wm4RCM_Sears_Tower_Seatt...

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37. BadHum+zI1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 22:44:43
>>dijit+2P
> and nothing I wrote suggests that financials and health of the business are linked.

For profit businesses exist to make money. That is all. Any other claim is fairy dust and bullshit. IBM may not be making waves anywhere but they are still pulling at least 10 billion in profit so they are doing a hell of a lot better than most other companies.

replies(1): >>dijit+w34
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38. dijit+w34[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-17 18:20:51
>>BadHum+zI1
The US system has got you good.

The intended purpose of a corporation is to do something. Profit shouldn't be a goal in of itself, it's a consequence of successfully doing something.

Revenue is good, as it employs people and keeps society churning, but this slavish devotion to the idea that companies only exist to make profits is alien; it's the personification of greed.

Many companies exist because the founder had a passion for actually doing something, and they can make money doing it. If they chased only profit, their life would be miserable.

replies(1): >>BadHum+X94
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39. BadHum+X94[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-17 18:58:03
>>dijit+w34
You are making a lot of mental leaps to things I didn't say. You only stay in business if money in so I hope the something you are doing brings in enough to stay in business or else you won't be doing anything

> If they chased only profit, their life would be miserable.

Get some hobbies and don't make work your life.

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40. DrillS+3n4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-17 20:09:24
>>ben_w+Gg
My experience living in an apartment building is that delivered packages are just stolen, so I either have them sent to an Amazon Locker or collection point (a local Whole Foods has a counter for this).

Our apartment building has a package room with a camera and my packages have never been stolen from it, and the delivery instructions in my Amazon profile say to use that package room including how to get there and that Amazon can tap into the room. Often times delivery drivers don't do that and just leave the package on a shelf out in the open next to the mailboxes. I cannot even count the number of times someone has ripped into the package to see if it contained something interesting only to leave it behind when it's boring like pencils or cleaning supplies.

Amazon refuses to take any responsibility for packages stolen and has in the past denied refund requests without a police report on the incident (which I have filed multiple for just to get a refund though the package thefts are never investigated so I'm not sure what filing a police report is meant to do here).

Their delivery is inconsistent so I just don't bother. Though that does mean that I don't order as often from them as perhaps they'd like - if I can pick it up locally after work then I'll do that rather than order it and wait for it to be present and unopened only to be disappointed yet again at the Amazon driver who didn't read the delivery instructions which state multiple times not to leave the package next to the mailboxes because it will be destroyed or stolen.

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41. DrillS+Qs9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-19 13:39:24
>>DrillS+5g
I'm talking specifically about the catalog here - the rest of the recent (last 20 years or so) dysfunction of Sears is of a different kind.

The Sears Catalog was the Amazon of the early 20th century. So we must ask ourselves "Why did Sears discontinue its catalog service in 1993?" One of the answers to that question is the rise of retailers like Walmart where people could walk into a local (or at least closer to them than a Sears location) store and buy all sorts of things that they otherwise would have had to order. The catalog was inconvenient with other alternatives available.

The concern with Amazon is with its delivery ability - sure, for now, their unsustainable model that burns out drivers and pays them a pittance is working. Should that slip where they cannot deliver same-day/next day/day after reliably then that's an opportunity for other retailers to do to them what Walmart did to Sears.

You can even see it in this discussion - Walmart's online component directly competes and with many, many more local retails locations than Amazon and can often either have the items ready for pickup the same day or even deliver the same day.

So yes, there's a precedent for this, and if Amazon is focusing more on AWS and the buckets and buckets of money there but starts neglecting the retail part then that leaves a massive opening for competitors.

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