zlacker

Alternatively, never blow up your life! Live near your family and lifelong friends, establish hardcore roots with your community, always be surrounded by love. A road less taken by the educated elites, but a happy and fulfilling road nonetheless.

The Onion’s take: https://www.theonion.com/unambitious-loser-with-happy-fulfil...

>>monero+(OP)
Interesting topic.

When you are socially underdeveloped, the strange sheep, the sightly bullied, the not-taken seriously, well it’s not so bad to go twice around the globe a few years and come back.

There’s debate. I’ve lost a lot of social fabric. I’m workaholic because I don’t have enough friends. But I’m millionaire, own my startup, own my house, and I can get advice on how to manage at work, get a psychologist, etc.

It’s not ideal, and ideally people would have recognized talent at home and/or just included me because I was a living person, but they didn’t seem to have this ethics. Travelling the world taught me what was necessary to give me the social chances that everyone had at home. Now I have weight. I’m not sure I’d have anyone’s respect without money and travels.

So: When home is broken anyway, do follow some dream, yours or not, travelling wasn’t even a dream for me, it will make you a broken soul with broken social fabric, but with more experience.

>>monero+(OP)
The Onion's take ten years on is a bit different:

https://www.theonion.com/women-explain-why-they-became-tradw...

>>phnofi+T4
I don't follow what relationship these two stories have with each other -- the first is on living in community and putting down roots, and the latter is on far-right cultural atavism.

>>eastbo+r1
> When you are socially underdeveloped, the strange sheep, the sightly bullied, the not-taken seriously, well it’s not so bad to go twice around the globe a few years and come back.

Being someone who has the odd combination of seeing problems everywhere and yet willing to take risks, it was great for me to do so and break out of my cycle/neighbourhood/city and do things nobody in my family (and extended family) bothered to do. Some things spectacularly failed and left scars that will last a lifetime but taking those risks brought me to places/experiences and gave me a life radically different from my peers in my school/family/background. Its not radical as in taking war time photos as a profession and volunteering for UN between projects, but, sufficiently different from what most people back home are doing.

The trick is to take risks that you have thought about and are convinced about; so even when they don't work out, you are not cursing yourself that you did something you were not 100% willing to do.

>>akpras+qd
It depends if one interprets "trad wife" to mean "far-right cultural atavism" or "traditional wife." I try to listen to those who subscribe to the movement, and they report the latter, every time. It seems those who interpret it as "far-right cultural atavism" refuse to actually listen to the women who find meaning in the lifestyle. Inasmuch, I see these articles strongly linked, and I find the juxtaposition really interesting.

>>monero+(OP)
This is a great path, but I think it's easy to overestimate how many people are able to take it happily.

It's making a lot of assumptions:

- You have a good relationship with your family

- You have good friends who also didn't move away

- You are genuinely happy with the work you get to do in a town with more limited career choices

- Your location (area and population density) plus salary can support your hobbies

>>eastbo+r1
Travelling will make you a broken soul? Then we must have been doing a very different kind of travelling around the world, for me it was the exact opposite. Literally the most enlighting experiences in my life, tons of personal growth.

And you meet tons of people even if you don't want to, do some cool extreme shit with them which can form bonds much stronger than years of just sitting next to each other in some cubicle/open space.

>>eastbo+r1
> it will make you a broken soul with broken social fabric, but with more experience.

I didn't expect this :( Why are you this way? Reading your comment until that point, I thought you'd figured life out.

>>libris+Cl
It's probably easier now than 10 years ago with remote work opportunities.

But yes, that is a lot of stars that need to align

>>eastbo+r1
> It’s not ideal, and ideally people would have recognized talent at home and/or just included me because I was a living person, but they didn’t seem to have this ethics.

What an egotistical thing to say. You're not entitled to have people waste time trying to "be friends with you" just because you're financially successful

> I’m workaholic because I don’t have enough friends.

You don't make friends and are workaholic because of it.

>>eastbo+r1
Completely agree with your perspective. Life is about making choices, and sometimes breaking out requires sacrificing certain aspects of our lives to gain momentum. When you dare to think and act differently, you become the odd one out, and your community may not accept you. But if you do break out and succeed, you reap the rewards you deserve, such as wealth and a home. However, it's often impossible to go back to the roots you left behind without even realizing it during the breakout. Personal growth happens along the way, even if others fail to see or understand it. Ultimately, it's crucial to trust your instincts and listen to your gut when deciding whether to break out or not. Thank you for this interesting discussion - inspiring.

>>ilyt+Xm
You see, I’ve proven that I’m a good person in many occasions, despite naysayers.

Now if we all must collude to make women in tech succeed, then surely we can include me at an improv group.

>>hzay+8m
Haha you expected a fairy tale. Real life is harder and never clean-cut.

But the good news is when a man embraces difficulty, isn’t it?

>>Gareth+Hj
The Onion clearly takes the former reading in their piece. I mean, it's barely subtext:

- "I wanted to live all my internalized misogyny"

- "Replenishing the white race is a full time job in itself"

- "A feminist cut me off in traffic once"

- "I believe in choosing a marital structure from an arbitrary point in human history and pretending it represents some kind of inviolable rule.”

But if you find value in juxtaposing these two, more power to you.

>>libris+Cl
Also notably that onion article was published over 10 years ago in 2013. At least by 2020 (before remote work) that seemed impossible to fulfill given the increasingly competitive global capitalist system creating massive uncertainty (and causing taking pills and overdose) to everyone especially rural and those back home

>>monero+(OP)
"One doesn't realize in early life that the price of freedom is loneliness. To be happy one must be tied." ~ CS Lewis

I don't know the context of the quote and I know next to nothing about CS Lewis, but having blown my life up at one point and experienced freedom on a level few on this planet could achieve (health, money, time, and will) the quote rang very true for me.

I think some people grow up in a community and are rooted within that community, but those people are also subject to that community and there is no guarantee that that "community that surrounds you with love" is a good community.

"Always be surrounded by love..." unless you are gay. Gay, trans, atheist, feminist, brown, an opioid addict, a questioner of authority, or otherwise different.

>>hzay+8m
He does now have all the tools at his disposal to fix it. It’s not so bad.

>>eastbo+3o
Sorry I can't differentiate whether that was sarcasm or more self-ego stroking

>>hayst4+Rq
> "Always be surrounded by love..." unless you are gay. Gay, trans, atheist, feminist, brown, an opioid addict, a questioner of authority, or otherwise different.

Or a middle-aged white man. https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/

>>monero+(OP)
Always wonder what people without roots are supposed to do. Where's the advice for them?

>>hayst4+Rq
>"community that surrounds you with love" This hurts a bit for those who broke out of a toxic or at least not so loving community. I love your comment and I will add this citation to my favorites but it assumes that the ties and relationships are full of love, which I think is not the case for everyone.

>>eastbo+r1
I traveled around the world for over a year because I wanted to experience more cultures - I found the same problems of humanity basically everywhere just in different shades. Anyway, a hack for you - if you want immediate respect, gain some muscles. It's possible your current presence is non-threatening and people subconsciously undervalue you due to the first impression.

>>pizza+ts
Do you mean by being uprooted to different places as a child? This happened to me but I put down new roots and made long-term friends as an adult. I'd think the advice for people lacking roots would be the same as for anyone who lacks friends and/or has lost connections? There are also people who lived in an area all their life but maybe friends moved away etc and they found themselves lonely. Seems to me an answer is get involved with things - volunteering, sports, arts, music etc, and for those religious faith, get involved with that, church or otherwise, as long as its a diverse inclusive tolerant supportive community.

>>hayst4+Rq
I can't speak for racism or being an addict, but in the English speaking world I think lots of these issues are overplayed.

It's not uncommon for members of the trans community to recommend cutting off family members for acts as minor as accidental misgendering, while ignoring the very real harms of social isolation.

As a trans person who's lived in a multi-generational household where only one other member knew I was trans. I can personally attest that even being closeted can be a good tradeoff for many people.

Obviously in cases of violent queerphobia the calculus will be different, but I think people chronically underweigh community and make their own lives worse for it.

There's a reason for the modern resurgence of communes, and it's not just rent. After decades of increasing social isolation we're finally coming back to the realisation that we're social monkeys.

>>monero+(OP)
Thank you for sharing that article. I had a good laugh reading it. It's essentially the life I'm trying to live, except I work remotely and earn a "city wage" while living in my rural home town.

>>eastbo+r1
Are you sure you're not trading your willingness to make more genuine human connections for the convenience of a psychologist?

>>ilyt+Xm
What awful things to say.

>>phnofi+T4
While reading your link, all I could think about is how good AI face generators have become these days. Hmm..

>>Gareth+Hj
"Trad wife" AKA people subscribing to traditional Christian ideas of marriage are very much "far-right cultural activists" from the feminist perspective.

Traditional Christian ideas about marriage (i.e. stay-at-home mom, breadwinner husband, the wife willingly submitting to her husband's authority, the husband willingly sacrificing his own ambitions for the good of his family, etc.) are very much not in line with feminism. While these people won't call themselves "far right cultural activists" they do have to reject feminism in order to have a consistent worldview, and feminists would definitely call them something along the lines of far-right.

I do agree that far-right is a misnomer, "religious right" or "socially conservative" might be a better fit. My point is that "far-right cultural atavism" and "traditional wife" are the same thing from different perspectives.

>>whitep+Qr
Comparing the suicide rate of those groups with middle aged white men (adjusted for the population size) is a bit silly. Some sources point to 40% of trans people having attempted suicide, and I don't think 40% of middle aged men have attempted suicide.

In absolute numbers the suicide rate among men is an epidemic, but it's not fair to equate the two populations...

>>pizza+ts
While it might be hard to grow roots, it is not impossible. IMO, you should start doing serious work on growing roots when you are in your late 20s. Growing roots include:

- Getting married

- Having kids

- Settling down to live in one place

- Finding out how you can participate in the local community, and the actively participate

You will find that people are remarkably open to people who willingly contribute to other's well-being. This is how friends are made, this is how roots are grown.

Edit: formatting

>>debok+xD
I "blew my life up" twice. Both times I was looking to start over and settle, i.e. grow roots, but in a different place.

It failed both times. People are incredibly difficult to accept outsiders within their circle. I did get married, but wife wants no kids :( ... which makes the marriage a little... fragile. Without close family/friends holding me here (I am and feel like a complete stranger here, 10 years on, and my wife is not local either), it seems I could just go at any time.

However, blowing my life up a third time seems futile. It may work for some people, but after failing twice, doing it a third time seems stupid.

>>monero+(OP)
I think that the elites have established social networks. I think that's almost in the definition of elite.

Are the terms "elite" and "elites" a term with hidden meaning in the US? Is it a republican dogwhistle for democrats?

>>mtizim+MC
What other response would you expect to someone complaining that people don't like him despise him having money ?

>>ilyt+Xm
I think you misunderstand GP's post on a low level, words-and-their-definitions level. The story has a timeline to it, and during the hometown portion they were not wealthy and not discussing wealth yet. Read it more carefully.

>>brabel+iF
Yeah, you're right. I should've added a YMMV qualifier.

>>hayst4+Rq
"One doesn't realize in early life that the price of freedom is loneliness. To be happy one must be tied."

There are traveller communities. You hook up, spend time together, split up and meet some of them around the globe later, if you want to.

>>brabel+iF
"However, blowing my life up a third time seems futile. "

Unless you do it different this time.

There are places that welcome outsiders. And there are places where everyone is living as an outsider to different degree, even those who were born there, with only shallow bands formed out of habit. You can never feel at home in those places.

>>ilyt+oG
He said people did not like him, because he was different. Did not recognized his talents. Considered him worthless.

With him building up a succesful startup he clearly proofed he has talents. But it sounds like he would have traded some of that working time to get money, to spend time with friends instead. But he seems burned from his childhood experiences.

>>sergio+1D
Uh. Ok so one groups rate of successful suicide is more important than the others. Gotcha. At least we can agree that it is an epidemic among white middle aged men.

>>monero+(OP)
I have to agree. For those people who have loving families that they can work with - realizing that EVERYONE has differences of opinion - staying near family is the single best thing you can do. You can have kids. Those kids can be around your parents and siblings and other relatives. Honestly it is true living. All else gravitates towards being too self centered.

>>brabel+iF
Same here. I moved to Australia from London via a 9 year stint in Dublin.

The Irish accepted me, despite the English connection. I made some very good friends but now have lost contact with all but one.

I moved to Brighton in Melbourne 10 years ago and it's a much harder nut to crack. The people here went to prep, primary, secondary school together. Probably university too. I'm an outsider looking in despite volunteering and doing all the rest.

"Blowing up" and moving back to the UK or Ireland is tempting but I would need to start it all again.

I think I'll stay. Maybe I'll crack these nuts one day and have roots.

>>flippi+ZK
The mentioned statistics are not comparable, so there is no "more importance" regarding this.

>>flippi+sL
I moved continents 12 years ago. I'm now happily married with a kid and have a life I love in my new home country. But I've only recently recognized the price I've paid in moving so far from my parents and siblings and what my daughter will miss out on because of it too.

>>hayst4+Rq
That quote is a great counter balance from the one in Fight Club, "Only when you have nothing, can you do anything."

One issue I have with the CS Lewis quote is I have been happy at both extremes. Tied down when I was younger was not for me, but now that I'm older I deeply appreciate all the ties I have. I'm not sure I would have gained this appreciation without taking the path it took to get here.

>>loa_in+oA
Ouch, that… is a good point. I really needed one at some point because I had an infinite-loop on negativity, but I need to try to emancipate from that.

>>osulli+2M
As someone who grew up in the area (mid 20s atm), there is a well known phrase amongst locals (at least my mates), the "Brighton Bubble." Also yes you're spot on about keeping ties through all levels of education, at least in my case. It was funny living in Sydney for a year, and returning to Melbourne, and when dating one of the first questions you'd be asked is what school you went to. At least, that's my experience, with a couple of people.

But it's not all gloom and doom, the closer you get to the CBD the more opportunities for connection open up. More activities to do in general, more people who are new to the city and are less likely to have ossified social circles, more public funding for that kind of thing. Melbourne has a rich variety of cultures and perspectives to immerse yourself in if you can align your life along the same axes that nurture those cultures and perspectives. Out in the burbs, particularly in the Bubble, less so. Doesn't help that Brighton and its surrounds are skewed to preserve the lifestyles of the people who grew up in the area (this is the politest possible way I can describe it). Speaking from experience there are plenty of people who left the insular communities of their youth around here, because they never felt like they belonged, and never looked back.

Also worth remembering the lockdowns didn't help. I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for in terms of social connection but my point is, please keep plugging away.

>>hayst4+Rq
> "Always be surrounded by love..." unless you are gay. Gay, trans, atheist, feminist, brown, an opioid addict, a questioner of authority, or otherwise different.

Questioner of authority doesn't belong on that list. All the others are mainstream things with media and political advocacy behind them. The last is a "denier" or "conspiracy theorist".

30 years ago they all might have belonged together (expect we had less racism), 15 years ago I understand why people clung to the idea, today it doesn't make any sense.

>>ruszki+xM
As if.

>>monero+(OP)
Agreed: https://www.jefftk.com/p/lifelong-investments

>>trepri+Lv
Do you recommended test for this purpose?

>>sergio+1D
Comparing rate of suicide to frequency of suicide attempts is dishonest. Histrionics grossly inflate the "attempt" rate. The most-dramatic demographic (teenagers) only succeeds 15% of the time, with 12.4% of teenaged girls attempting (5.3% for boys). Anything qualifies!

I've got one who "attempted" suicide as a fucking negotiation tactic-- literally, "give me what I want or I'll kill myself." She's not trans, just Karen incarnate, and had no problems appropriating their "life-affirming care" argument to secure concessions for herself.

Small wonder these numbers are so high-- it's a bullshit metric.

>>hutzli+hJ
True bonds require years and decades of frequent interactions to grow.

>>debok+0D
An "activist" is someone who "use direct, often confrontational action, such as a demonstration or strike, in opposition to or support of a cause.". Whereas these people are not activists, they merely live according to their values.

>>akpras+Lp
I used to like The Onion before they got super preachy...

>>badpun+On2
Nope. I have stronger bonds with people I met only a short, but very intense time, compared to most people I know all my life.

But in general yes, frequent meeting in person is nice and needed.

>>whitep+Qr
Middle aged white men can be almost any of those things I listed.

It floors me that you aren't flagged.

Not because you mentioned middle aged white men (which I am), but because I am talking about reasons people get kicked out of the usually conservative communities they grow up in. Being a middle aged white man is not one of those reasons.

Middle aged white men can choose their community. Being an atheist I was kicked out of mine.

There's a difference between not choosing a community and not being welcome in it.

Your response reeks of "white lives matter" to me.

>>versio+mZ
Communities have authority structures and questioning the basic assumptions of communities (should we allow gay people into our church?) is definitely ostracize-able behavior.

>>hayst4+GN2
You try to measure the levels of suffering based on sex, race and sexual orientation. That is why you will not be taken seriously by people who think.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gay+pride - that looks like there is no community for feminists, gay and trans?

You mentioning you being an atheist is just a cherry on top.

>>hayst4+Rq
Atheists are "different" now? Did not know. Maybe it depends on the state.

>>jstarf+1m2
Fwiw, sometimes they follow through.

>>badpun+Ko2
You are right. However, that doesn't stop others from calling them activists. If you are on the so called "far right," then merely living out your values seem like activism to those who are opposed to you.

>>hutzli+lK
Would it not help them to name some of those places?