zlacker

[parent] [thread] 128 comments
1. advise+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-04-14 17:39:54
> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions, but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies,” Herdener said.

> Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives. Herdener previously said the policy did not allow employees to “publicly disparage or misrepresent the company.”

Amazon is straight up firing these people for expressing their personal opinions. Amazon isn't even claiming they lied, or pretend to speak officially, or any other reason.

replies(11): >>influx+S >>alehul+21 >>A4ET8a+81 >>crispy+H1 >>gorgoi+b2 >>roches+y2 >>forgot+U5 >>ignora+97 >>Aloha+wc >>reaper+0g >>outwor+lm
2. influx+S[view] [source] 2020-04-14 17:44:30
>>advise+(OP)
Amazon is very clear when you're hired that you're not allowed to represent the company or it's positions on social media or anywhere publicly without getting permission.

You can agree or disagree with that policy, but it's not new. Source: first heard of this policy when I was hired at Amazon in 2007.

replies(3): >>oefrha+52 >>Angost+i3 >>elicas+u3
3. alehul+21[view] [source] 2020-04-14 17:45:12
>>advise+(OP)
Amazon is firing them for commenting publicly on its business.

If you were employed by a company and disparaged them publicly, breaking company policy, would you believe that your employment with them is in any way protected?

replies(4): >>tyingq+u2 >>mc32+g4 >>Sharli+jd >>YokoZa+7g
4. A4ET8a+81[view] [source] 2020-04-14 17:45:35
>>advise+(OP)
Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender, but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. There are practicalities that come into play that have to do with unemployment insurance and whatnot, but company policy violation is a defensible 'cause' for firing.

I am not a lawyer nor am I condoning this, but them is the facts.

edit: added play

replies(9): >>elicas+g3 >>alexan+s5 >>kube-s+F5 >>sudosy+J6 >>throwa+q8 >>wpietr+8b >>xenocy+tb >>tehjok+kd >>tobr+Wg
5. crispy+H1[view] [source] 2020-04-14 17:48:16
>>advise+(OP)
The employees certainly knew this could happen, or at least should have been aware what they were getting into. I hope that's the case.

Every large company very clearly states, one way or another, that speaking about the company to the public without being a designated spokesperson is seriously grounds for termination.

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6. oefrha+52[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:49:34
>>influx+S
Also: whether you like it or not, this is pretty standard policy almost everywhere.
7. gorgoi+b2[view] [source] 2020-04-14 17:50:01
>>advise+(OP)
If they were walked out for gross misconduct then there’s a story for sure.

But if Amazon negotiated a deal with them by which both employer and employee bilaterally agreed to end the contract between them, then fair enough! Rest assured it was probably quite expensive for Amazon, or at least for that micro-pod’s balance sheet.

No one is entitled to be a hostile employee, just as no employee has to tolerate a hostile workplace. I think they’ll be happier working somewhere else (and I hope they continue the activism.)

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8. tyingq+u2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:51:10
>>alehul+21
I agree with you. Amazon, should though, be aware of the Streisand effect. They are amplifying their problem by firing people instead of, say...reprimanding them.
replies(1): >>kube-s+H6
9. roches+y2[view] [source] 2020-04-14 17:51:25
>>advise+(OP)
That quote is straight up incorrect. Amazon doesn't restrict, and actually encourages employees to talk about their work conditions, as long as said employee makes sure to say "these opinions are my own and do not represent Amazon's official stance" and that anything you are saying is actually true. You certainly do not need "corporate justification and approval from executives". I am curious where Reuters pulled that from.

Both this and the WaPo article are extremely light on the details what exactly these employees said or did. WaPo says that these employees "violated company policy", which leads me to believe they must have been saying something that Amazon felt was untrue, because again, official policy is that you can speak as much as you want about working conditions at Amazon as long as they are factual. I would like to see what exactly these people said that apparently upset Amazon, but I can't find it anywhere.

replies(2): >>aabesh+d9 >>pas+WR1
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10. elicas+g3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:53:53
>>A4ET8a+81
For folks looking for extra protections, you should include a call for protected concerted activity when voicing your opinions and directing them towards fellow employees:

https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em...

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11. Angost+i3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:53:54
>>influx+S
They weren't "representing the company" which means speaking its behalf. They were criticising some of it's policies.
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12. elicas+u3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:54:58
>>influx+S
The policy could also be in violation of law. Hard to see without looking at the policy and also without looking at the substance of the comments. But there are federal laws protecting certain worker activity and a policy doesn't overrule that.

It depends on the specifics of this case.

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13. mc32+g4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:57:52
>>alehul+21
Here’s my take. If I think a company is doing wrong and I believe I should stand against it, I would then consider that taking a stand will likely result in termination; but if I believe strongly then I’d do it because of principle not be cause a law is protecting me.

That’s not to say I disagree with workers’ protections only tat if you believe strongly then protections or not should not be much of a consideration.

That said, is Amazon acting illegally so you’re calling that out or do I just disagree with their position?

replies(1): >>wushup+X4
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14. wushup+X4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:00:40
>>mc32+g4
I agree, but I should not be surprised if they terminated me because of it.
replies(1): >>alexan+I5
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15. alexan+s5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:02:39
>>A4ET8a+81
I think people are outraged not because it's illegal, but because it's unconscionable. I think the general understanding is people shouldn't have outside-work activities be held against them, maybe it's time for the law to catch up.

It's pretty easy to come up with a lot of absurd and "legal" at-will policies (e.g. we'll fire anybody who watches porn)

replies(7): >>Noughm+l6 >>atomi+q6 >>burrow+c7 >>A4ET8a+89 >>mcherm+nc >>syshum+Mi >>bsder+4J
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16. kube-s+F5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:03:22
>>A4ET8a+81
All US states recognize at-will employment. This does not mean that people can be fired for any reason, there are numerous laws that define reasons that are prohibited.

But yes, shit talking your employer is generally not one of those reasons.

replies(1): >>YokoZa+gf
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17. alexan+I5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:03:24
>>wushup+X4
Maybe not surprised, but morally outraged certainly
replies(1): >>mc32+o6
18. forgot+U5[view] [source] 2020-04-14 18:04:31
>>advise+(OP)
> Amazon is straight up firing these people for expressing their personal opinions.

That's not exactly uncommon in the modern world. Especially with the prevalence of social media, expressing your opinion on anything publicly could cost you your job. Same thing happened to James Damore.

If you want to remain employed, you need to be quite cautious about what you post on non-anonymous social media. In fact, I'd advise most people not to post on social media at all.

replies(3): >>daenz+1a >>wpietr+jc >>Sharli+rc
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19. Noughm+l6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:06:32
>>alexan+s5
In that case, people should make it illegal. Like they did in most other countries.

The US is full of outrage about companies doing unethical things but nobody wants to make unethical things illegal.

replies(2): >>qppo+v9 >>ardy42+ut
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20. mc32+o6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:06:52
>>alexan+I5
I’m not sure. Let’s say me and my neighbor borrow things from each other and have an okay relationship. Maybe some time later they think I underpaid them for a used car when they find out I sold it for double the price. They don’t talk to me and we’re not friends any longer.

Do I get outraged at them? Should they be outraged at me? Did anyone of us do anything illegal?

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21. atomi+q6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:07:16
>>alexan+s5
> Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender,

This should give you a hint about this person's intention. Their argument is a classic appeal to authority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

replies(3): >>A4ET8a+D7 >>Tainno+58 >>jsheve+9g
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22. kube-s+H6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:08:33
>>tyingq+u2
> Amazon.com Inc (AMZN.O) said on Tuesday it terminated two employees, who criticized the working conditions

It doesn't sound like Amazon is attempting to hide anything here.

replies(1): >>tyingq+Lo
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23. sudosy+J6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:08:42
>>A4ET8a+81
It is fallacious to think that because something is legal, it is OK.
24. ignora+97[view] [source] 2020-04-14 18:10:45
>>advise+(OP)
WaPo has an in-depth article with interviews from fired employees, @marencost and @emahlee [0].

These tweets, made on 27 March, allegedly broke the camel's back:

@marencosta I am matching donations to $500 to support my Amazon warehouse colleagues and their communities, while they struggle to get consistent, sufficient protections and procedures from our employer. DM or comment for match. [1]

@emahlee I'm matching donations up to $500 to support my Amazon warehouse worker colleagues. "The lack of safe and sanitary working conditions" puts them and the public at risk.

It's bad ya'll... [2] and @marencosta re-tweeted it.

@marencosta had been warned by Amazon, in late 2019, to not publicly disparage them.

---

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/04/13/amazon-...

[1] https://twitter.com/marencosta/status/1243585580736237568

[2] https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1243441985173651456.html

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25. burrow+c7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:10:52
>>alexan+s5
The employee should negotiate “fireable offenses” into his contract. There’s no reason to increase state involvement with new laws.
replies(2): >>katman+T7 >>skywho+kg
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26. A4ET8a+D7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:12:47
>>atomi+q6
Could you elaborate?

I think I either misunderstand this type of argument or you meant to use a different link. If you look at my history, I am hardly a proponent of all things Amazon. I recognize their strengths and their weaknesses. It is important to clear eyes about all this.

replies(1): >>atomi+id
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27. katman+T7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:14:12
>>burrow+c7
>There’s no reason to increase state involvement with new laws.

Well, not unless you consider the significant disparity in negotiating power between the employer and prospective employee when forming that contract. Very few people are in a position to negotiate something like that, and the ones that are aren't likely to be explicitly fired for speaking their mind.

replies(1): >>burrow+e9
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28. Tainno+58[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:15:01
>>atomi+q6
I don't agree with the parent comment at all, but this is not an argument from authority. If anything, it's an instance of the is-ought fallacy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

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29. throwa+q8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:17:21
>>A4ET8a+81
>but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all.

Yes, employment at-will allows both the employer and employee to terminate employment at anytime without cause.

However, it seems pretty clear Amazon did not terminate these employees without cause...you can argue the termination was for violation of a company policy all you want (Amazon certainly will), but the evidence seems to support Amazon fired these employees in retaliation for exercising their Constitutionally protected rights.

The employees will sue and Amazon will settle. This is a major win for Amazon because it will be far less costly to pay these employees off rather than make any meaningful change to work conditions.

replies(1): >>roches+J9
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30. A4ET8a+89[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:20:14
>>alexan+s5
I can't honestly say I disagree with you. There must be a line between you and work and a question where that line is is a valid question.

As an employer, do you want to have an employee that in a very public manner ( and these days it is oh so easy to be public ) trashes your business? Is that line crossed? I would argue, as usual, that it depends. If the employee's life is threatened by horrific business practices, then talking to the media is almost their civic duty. That said, I do not think they should be surprised they are fired after the fact though..

So where is the line for you?

replies(1): >>skywho+6g
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31. aabesh+d9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:20:28
>>roches+y2
as long as they are factual*

* make sure to use corporate-approved facts

replies(2): >>wpietr+Uc >>filole+1C
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32. burrow+e9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:20:28
>>katman+T7
Is the labor market free from cartels? If so, then employees can negotiate.

Obviously they won’t get everything they want, but that’s the nature of negotiation.

replies(1): >>katman+Ea
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33. qppo+v9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:21:52
>>Noughm+l6
Without getting into all of the hazards about legislating morality it's impractical in our current climate. I don't think this should be illegal, personally.

I do think that it would be helpful to make the decision making public though. Limited legal liability isn't limited moral liability. Rather than saying "amazon fired" someone they should tell us "Jane Doe a manager at Amazon made the decision to fire."

People shouldn't hide behind the company logo when they do shitty things to other people. And if you want to rationalize it, cool, do it with your name attached so your pastor, spouse, friends, and kids know the things you'll do for a paycheck and you can justify it all you want to your community.

replies(2): >>mcherm+Ge >>brewda+kf
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34. roches+J9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:23:00
>>throwa+q8
There are no constitutionally protected rights to disparage, or even just talk negatively about, anyone you want. The constitution has nothing to do with this case at all.
replies(3): >>bigbob+jf >>throwa+3w >>danari+CI
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35. daenz+1a[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:23:58
>>forgot+U5
I think the surprise here comes from being fired for expressing an opinion that the tech community generally supports. When Damore did it, the community generally was against him, so firing him was celebrated. The lesson here is that these kinds of policies cut both ways.
replies(1): >>dntrkv+2D
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36. katman+Ea[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:26:27
>>burrow+e9
You can indeed attempt to negotiate, and the prospective employer can (and likely will) just pass you up in favor of someone less troublesome.

This really only works for a handful of people applying for high level jobs where they are significantly more desirable than anyone else who applied for the position.

replies(1): >>burrow+rb
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37. wpietr+8b[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:28:44
>>A4ET8a+81
Nobody said it was illegal. Why did you think it important to defend Amazon against an accusation that isn't even being made?
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38. burrow+rb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:30:08
>>katman+Ea
That’s exactly what should happen in a free market. Company makes offer, laborer counters, then company counters or holds. If the company holds, the laborer should seek work at a different company.

Just because the “value” of a man’s labor is low (in some sense), doesn’t mean the government should intervene.

replies(1): >>katman+mh
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39. xenocy+tb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:30:18
>>A4ET8a+81
> nor am I condoning this

Nobody's questioning the legality. The question is whether it should be condoned.

Private censorship is legal, but IMHO it can be unethical, especially when the balance of power is so far askew. An employer firing or threatening to fire an employee for speaking can have a large chilling effect.

replies(1): >>YokoZa+un1
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40. wpietr+jc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:34:57
>>forgot+U5
I think an important consideration with Damore is that Google had to choose between keeping him and keeping other people. There was no outcome that didn't result in people leaving.

This, on the other hand, is just about Amazon trying to control people to keep their poor treatment of employees hidden. There's nobody at Amazon who's saying, "Man, I'm quitting if those people keep trying to improve worker conditions here."

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41. mcherm+nc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:35:04
>>alexan+s5
> It's pretty easy to come up with a lot of absurd and "legal" at-will policies (e.g. we'll fire anybody who watches porn)

My favorite which would work in much of the US is "We'll fire anybody who registers with the Republican party." (Or Democratic, if you prefer.) Especially in a state where registration is required in order to participate in the primary. It is legal, but, I believe, completely unacceptable to just about everyone.

replies(1): >>jsheve+Le
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42. Sharli+rc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:35:45
>>forgot+U5
> That's not exactly uncommon in the modern world

It is uncommon in the parts of modern world that have reasonably modern employee protection laws. Yes, most jurisdictions recognize that employers may expect a certain degree of loyalty from their employees. But unless you're a very high-level executive, just disagreeing with your employer's conduct is absolutely no legal grounds for termination.

43. Aloha+wc[view] [source] 2020-04-14 18:36:08
>>advise+(OP)
If I criticized my employer in the national media, I'd expect to be shown the door too.
replies(1): >>YokoZa+Eg
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44. wpietr+Uc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:37:28
>>aabesh+d9
Exactly. If Amazon is the final arbiter of what's false or what's disparaging, then the policy is not valuable as worker protection.
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45. atomi+id[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:39:55
>>A4ET8a+D7
When you appeal an argument to a higher authority, in your case the law, it's an attempt to shutdown further discussion. In other words, it's not an argument as to the merits of the points being made. You're just not addressing the points at all and appealing to "a higher authority."
replies(1): >>A4ET8a+bf
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46. Sharli+jd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:40:11
>>alehul+21
Yes, in just about any Western jurisdiction that isn't the US. The degree of loyalty expected from a rank-and-file employee is not very high. If you're a high-level executive it's different. Great power, great responsibility and so on.
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47. tehjok+kd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:40:14
>>A4ET8a+81
Of course the powerful can use their powers for evil, we have to criticise them for it.
replies(1): >>missed+Zi
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48. mcherm+Ge[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:46:16
>>qppo+v9
I would immediately implement a special role for the head of HR: official decider of all firing decisions. No one will blame the head of HR because they'll know that they were only carrying out someone else's decision, while no one would blame the original decider because no one knows who it was.
replies(1): >>qppo+Lh
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49. jsheve+Le[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:46:26
>>mcherm+nc
>It is legal, but, I believe, completely unacceptable to just about everyone.

This is not true in my experience. Many people on the left, particularly under 35, earnestly believe that their political opponents are by definition racist and evil. In a manner similar to how I would not want a literal neo-nazi on my company's payroll, they do not want a registered Republican on the company's payroll.

Edit: In other words, this kind of bigotry is actually acceptable to a disturbingly large number of people.

replies(1): >>SaxonR+Wj
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50. A4ET8a+bf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:48:12
>>atomi+id
Ok. I think understand your point now. I believe you have your argument type mixed up. You are probably looking for appeal to the law ( though it is still a stretch ). I am not dura lex sed lex guy, but I think it is necessary to point out current condition before we get too wound up over what the reality ought to be.

edit: corrected fallacy to argument

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51. YokoZa+gf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:48:49
>>kube-s+F5
Discussing your working conditions with other workers or with the press is legally protected concerted activity by the NLRB. Firing workers for that is explicitly illegal.

You _cannot_ sign away these rights in an employee agreement or policy you agree to. Amazon having a "policy" against speaking out about unsafe working conditions is not a legal (or moral) defense of their behavior.

replies(2): >>zozbot+bg >>kube-s+1p
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52. bigbob+jf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:49:13
>>roches+J9
True, but NLRA may be applicable.
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53. brewda+kf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:49:16
>>qppo+v9
In a company the size of Amazon, the decision to fire probably didn't come from Jane Doe. She gets stuck delivering the message though. Should we just say Jeff Bezos fired these employees? We don't know if he played a role here but surely he could have prevented their firing if he so desired.
replies(1): >>qppo+Ci
54. reaper+0g[view] [source] 2020-04-14 18:51:53
>>advise+(OP)
Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives.

This has been the policy at every company I've worked for since the 90's. It's usually in the employee handbook, and at a couple of places I had to sign a separate paper acknowledging it.

Amazingly, several of those companies were news organizations. It's usually the first indication that a company is more interested in its stock price than doing the right thing.

replies(1): >>YokoZa+Ek
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55. skywho+6g[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:52:29
>>A4ET8a+89
A company as big as Amazon is very different than a small firm with a few employees. There's also a big difference between criticizing the company's products and criticizing their business practices.

Where "the line" is depends on the specific circumstances, but it's pretty clear to me that Amazon overdid it in this case. If they found these employees' statements embarrassing enough to fire them, then it sounds like they know they are doing something wrong.

replies(2): >>missed+ji >>A4ET8a+uj
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56. YokoZa+7g[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:52:30
>>alehul+21
Such policies are facially illegal under the National Labor Relations Act, which guarantees workers the right to engaged in protected concerted activity, such as discussing their working conditions with eachother, the press, and the public. The tweets that got these two fired were explicitly about working conditions.

Google had a similar policy and, after losing NLRA cases, had to issue a notice to all employees saying that its previous policies no longer included discussing working conditions with the public.

Amazon will likely get sued over this, and very likely lose in a similar matter, as their conduct here is even more egregious.

replies(3): >>cperci+hi >>missed+nj >>alehul+Qj
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57. jsheve+9g[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:52:37
>>atomi+q6
It looks to me like you may be poisoning the well.

Separately, there is no "appeal to authority fallacy" in the post.

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58. zozbot+bg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:52:52
>>YokoZa+gf
> Discussing your working conditions with other workers or with the press is legally protected concerted activity

Didn't help that Google guy. The NLRB itself even issued some sort of opinion stating that he had violated corporate policy and that his firing was thus justified.

replies(1): >>YokoZa+Yi
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59. skywho+kg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:53:49
>>burrow+c7
You have a very unrealistic view of how employment works.
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60. YokoZa+Eg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:55:10
>>Aloha+wc
And depending on how you criticized them (such as by engaging in protected concerted activity like discussing your pay or working conditions), you may be having your legal rights violated and are entitled to remedy under the NLRA.
replies(1): >>missed+dk
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61. tobr+Wg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:56:37
>>A4ET8a+81
Friendly input: when you start a comment with “Uhh, ...”, it comes across as if you think the person you’re replying to is stupid. It reads like the equivalent of an eye-roll.
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62. katman+mh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:58:45
>>burrow+rb
So your argument has shifted from "if people want something they should negotiate for it instead of involving the government" to "even though the vast majority of people can't actually participate in meaningful negotiations the government still shouldn't intervene?"

You're essentially arguing that only the few people at the top should be able to do well. Just because anyone can rise to the top of their class and do well if they work hard enough doesn't mean everyone can, it's a race to the bottom of who can give up free time or family time to be more valuable to their employer. While in the short term employers might prefer that, I really don't think it's good for society long term.

replies(1): >>burrow+or
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63. qppo+Lh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:00:52
>>mcherm+Ge
Why would you want to create a workplace without personal responsibility for decision making? All I'm saying is to make that personal responsibility public.

It's pretty telling to me that I'm being downvoted for saying that I think people should own up to their decisions in the workplace that impact other people and are questionable ethically. Removing any kind of moral liability for those decisions is how we wind up with businesses that employ good people that do shitty things to other good people.

replies(3): >>freeja+Nm >>SaxonR+kn >>Zanni+qN
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64. cperci+hi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:03:10
>>YokoZa+7g
Except they weren't discussing their working conditions. They were discussing other people's working conditions.
replies(1): >>YokoZa+4k
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65. missed+ji[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:03:14
>>skywho+6g
So at what headcount does a firm just have to put up with any and all negative remarks made by their employees? Clearly you think a small business should have different rules than Amazon.
replies(1): >>jsheve+AU
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66. qppo+Ci[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:04:32
>>brewda+kf
In a company the size of Amazon, no one gets fired without paperwork, and termination has a process. Someone initiated that process and made the decision to follow a policy.

I don't know what the policy is explicitly or if it's justified, but there should be visibility into that kind of decision making from the outside. It's in the lack of visibility that we see bad shit happen with hiring and firing.

replies(2): >>SaxonR+Mm >>filole+yz
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67. syshum+Mi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:05:24
>>alexan+s5
I 100% agree with you, however this seems to be only an outrage because these people happen to have Left leaning political views

Right leaning people are fired all the time for their views on social issues, and no one seems to have a problem with that normally.

Further if these employees would have been fired to taking a counter view I bet there would have been cheers for their firing

no the outrage here is not really because " people shouldn't have outside-work activities be held against them" no it is more "I agree with these employee opinions and am outraged they were fired for an opinion I share"

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68. YokoZa+Yi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:06:23
>>zozbot+bg
If by "that Google guy" you mean Damore he did dozens of things wrong simultaneously.

If by "that Google guy" you mean the one who got fired for posting critical memes about pay on Facebook, I'm pretty sure they were ordered reinstated and the notice was issued.

The Amazon folks fired here did nothing more than say they were concerned about working conditions on Twitter. It's hard to have a more explicitly protected activity.

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69. missed+Zi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:06:33
>>tehjok+kd
I don't think discontinuing employment should be categorized as 'evil'. Amazon doesn't owe them a job, and if the seller of labour crossed a line that the buyer doesn't like and that has been clearly spelled out prior to the work beginning, no one should force the buyer to continue buying labour from the seller. That would be closer to evil than the former option.
replies(1): >>tehjok+gl
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70. missed+nj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:08:46
>>YokoZa+7g
They weren't discussing their working conditions.
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71. A4ET8a+uj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:09:30
>>skywho+6g
"A company as big as Amazon is very different than a small firm with a few employees. "

We are in absolute agreement. Frankly, I have argued before that they are already too big.

"There's also a big difference between criticizing the company's products and criticizing their business practices."

I am not sure I agree with that statement. Would you feel the same if the employee publicly criticized a company for using non recycled paper AND they have to change course now and use recycled paper; afterwards the story "went viral" and employee got fired for that specific action. Is employee justified in doing that without any repercussions? It is genuinely hard for me to argue for the employee here.

"Where "the line" is depends on the specific circumstances, but it's pretty clear to me that Amazon overdid it in this case."

To you it may be clear, but clearly not to everyone since we are having this discussion. Whether the pendulum should swing ( it should ) is a worthwhile conversation to have.

"If they found these employees' statements embarrassing enough to fire them, then it sounds like they know they are doing something wrong."

I don't know if I buy this argument. HR does not like troublemakers seems like more plausible explanation.

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72. alehul+Qj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:10:47
>>YokoZa+7g
IANAL, but all I know of the National Labor Relations Act pertains to unions and collective bargaining. These were UX designers, far detached from warehouses, speaking on warehouse conditions.

While warehouse workers could file suit under the National Labor Relations Act if fired for speaking publicly of their own working conditions, I'm not sure that Amazon's UX team would qualify (but again, IANAL).

To draw an analogy: Would a DoorDash engineer be safe speaking out against the working conditions of DoorDash drivers?

replies(1): >>a13692+9p
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73. SaxonR+Wj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:11:11
>>jsheve+Le
It is my experience that everyone who self identifies as a republican or democrat is brainwashed at this point. The worst offenders are those who are so delusional that they mock anyone who avoids political discourse or abstains from voting. They are so high on political fumes that they can’t imagine that there are things more important than our cancerous political process.
replies(2): >>jsheve+lu >>filole+2y
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74. YokoZa+4k[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:11:44
>>cperci+hi
Other people who work at the same company. You are attempting to split hairs that the law doesn't have.

Firing designers for complaining about their unsanitary working conditions is illegal. Firing warehouse workers for complaining about their unsanitary working conditions is illegal. Firing designers and warehouse workers for attempting to organize together is illegal.

Firing designers for talking about someone else's working conditions isn't "one weird trick" for avoiding the law here.

replies(1): >>asdfas+0A
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75. missed+dk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:12:18
>>YokoZa+Eg
These workers were not discussing their working conditions or pay.
replies(1): >>YokoZa+zm
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76. YokoZa+Ek[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:14:53
>>reaper+0g
Yes, these policies are widespread. And often explicitly illegal under the NLRA. You have a legal right, for instance, to discuss your pay and working conditions with anyone you like.

But no one changes the policies until the NLRB requires them to after losing a case, even an easy case. Sometimes all they do is write "except where allowed by law" into the policy, then hope workers don't know what their rights are.

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77. tehjok+gl[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:17:41
>>missed+Zi
It seems rather authoritarian to totally shred the relationship over mild dissent. How weak and pathetic is the Amazon leadership that they cannot tolerate criticism?
replies(1): >>missed+tF
78. outwor+lm[view] [source] 2020-04-14 19:23:30
>>advise+(OP)
> Amazon is straight up firing these people for expressing their personal opinions.

A lot of companies will do that. For instance, I never identify on social media (including here) which company I work for. I am not authorized to speak on behalf of the company. Even giving it praise on social media is a form of communication, and I am not PR. Therefore, not authorized (of course, retweeting official communications or linking to them is fine). We may not like these policies (and it is kinda dystopian if you think about it), but once we identify as employees, we are representing the company.

Should I then decide to criticize the company publicly, I would expect the hammer to fall down, hard Not sure about termination, but it is always a possibility. Especially in the US, with at will employment.

You can blow the whistle. But that doesn't make one immune to consequences. Should it be like that? I don't know, but the matter of the fact is that it is like that today, across most corporations. Google is (Was?) somewhat of an exception, but even then most of it was on internal forums.

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79. YokoZa+zm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:25:12
>>missed+dk
They were engaging in organizing activity with other workers at the same company, explicitly about those workers working conditions. That too is protected.
replies(1): >>missed+yF
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80. SaxonR+Mm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:26:18
>>qppo+Ci
The person filing the paperwork still isn’t necessarily the one who made the call. In fact, it usually isn’t; they are just the ones whose responsibility it is to carry it out, or else their head is on the block.
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81. freeja+Nm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:26:23
>>qppo+Lh
Because that would just require corporations to have a "fall guy", which is basically what a lot of executives are already. Vessels into which the corporation can dump it's moral debt.
replies(1): >>A4ET8a+qQ
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82. SaxonR+kn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:28:37
>>qppo+Lh
The corporate structure institutionalizes immorality, it cannot be avoided. By law shareholder profits come first, everything else is secondary to that goal.
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83. tyingq+Lo[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:35:26
>>kube-s+H6
By firing them, they are reinforcing the idea they they don't care about working conditions. A reprimand likely wouldn't have made the news.

I assume they want less buzz about work conditions.

replies(2): >>kube-s+ju >>greedo+Ox
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84. kube-s+1p[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:36:21
>>YokoZa+gf
You're 100% right.

Let me further clarify my statement: While shit talking your employer, you must be very careful not to step outside the bounds of what is legally protected. And with attention comes scrutiny.

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85. a13692+9p[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:37:08
>>alehul+Qj
> Would a DoorDash engineer be safe speaking out against the working conditions of DoorDash drivers?

They should be, but you might be right that the National Labor Relations Act (or other applicable law) isn't doing its job.

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86. burrow+or[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:51:39
>>katman+mh
“meaningful negotiation” doesn’t mean anything to me. Either men with guns coerce the market participant or they don’t.

Freemen should rationally allocate free time, family time and work time. A man isn’t guaranteed everything he wants, only the opportunity to rationally pursue his interests.

replies(2): >>katman+aw >>8note+Hi1
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87. ardy42+ut[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:03:02
>>Noughm+l6
> The US is full of outrage about companies doing unethical things but nobody wants to make unethical things illegal.

That's patently false. Plenty of people want to make those unethical things illegal, it's just that the people who engage in those unethical things have had the political power to thwart many of those efforts so far.

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88. kube-s+ju[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:06:57
>>tyingq+Lo
The Streisand effect is when someone actively takes actions to hide information, but it backfires. I haven't seen any evidence of them taking actions to hide any information.

>I assume they want less buzz about work conditions.

I don't think this is the case. They have been public about responding to the media and have been posting daily updates through their own site. The link to their blog discussing workers' conditions is on the front page of Amazon.com.

replies(1): >>tyingq+Tw
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89. jsheve+lu[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:07:08
>>SaxonR+Wj
I agree there are serious problems with brainwashing on both sides. My criticism was directed leftward only because it seemed most relevant to my disagreement with the GP.
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90. throwa+3w[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:17:21
>>roches+J9
>There are no constitutionally protected rights to disparage, or even just talk negatively about, anyone you want.

Yes, you certainly do have that right so long as what you say is true.

But lets assume your misunderstanding of the law were true, or these statements were in violation of some otherwise unknown confidential settlement agreement...who is to say the employee statements were disparaging? Amazon? No whether a statement is disparaging or otherwise violates the terms of an agreement is an issue of fact for a fact finder (i.e. jury or more rarely a judge) to determine.

replies(1): >>roches+dU
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91. katman+aw[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:17:32
>>burrow+or
>“meaningful negotiation” doesn’t mean anything to me.

You've already defined it with "The employee should negotiate “fireable offenses” into his contract." I don't know of a single employer that would be interested in hiring someone who insisted on including a list of nonfirable offenses which included making public statements which paint the company in a bad light. That specific item we're talking about is completely unviable for most employees to negotiate, i.e. they have no meaningful/material/real/significant ability to negotiate it.

>Either men with guns coerce the market participant or they don’t.

There are many more forms of coercion than just "men with guns," and if coercion specifically by men with guns is worth acting on then why shouldn't other forms be?

In this case there technically _is_ coercion by men with guns, albeit a degree or two removed. People need money to keep a roof over their head, and they need jobs to receive that money. If they're not able to work then your men with guns will come and remove them from their living space, and once on the street they'll likely have many more unpleasant encounters with more men with guns.

>Freemen should rationally allocate free time, family time and work time. A man isn’t guaranteed everything he wants, only the opportunity to rationally pursue his interests.

Nothing I've argued goes against that. My point here is that there are certain things which the invisible hand of the free market is unable to touch due to the dynamics of the market. That is, in my and many other people's opinion, where the government needs to step in and force the market to make decisions it would be otherwise unwilling to do. This has already been necessary many times before in American history, such as with the ending of slavery, child labor, and the introduction of minimum wage laws. In all of these cases government intervention was necessary to reduce human suffering and raise people's quality of life. Yes, some "market value" was lost in the process but to people with empathy that was a completely worthwhile trade.

replies(1): >>burrow+mC
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92. tyingq+Tw[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:21:04
>>kube-s+ju
Firing outspoken employees counts as an attempt to suppress information to me. The firing itself becoming news is the backfire. They essentially gave the warehouse conditions an extra news cycle.
replies(1): >>kube-s+lz
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93. greedo+Ox[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:26:17
>>tyingq+Lo
The power imbalance makes it easy for Amazon to act like this. Even if they get sued and lose, they have billions. It's like when Google got fined by the EU, and it was just a day's profit. Amazon is a shredder; so large that it just wipes out swaths of businesses, leaving broken employees in its wake.
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94. filole+2y[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:27:16
>>SaxonR+Wj
From my observations (total anecdata, I am aware), those pro-specific-party people also usually don't tend to participate in politics on more local levels at all (county, state, etc.), despite the fact that those are imo way more impactful and can lead to changes "trickling up" all the way to the national level. Most of the people I personally know who vote in county/state elections can be best described as independents.
replies(1): >>A4ET8a+LD
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95. kube-s+lz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:36:36
>>tyingq+Tw
We may be missing information here, but I am not sure these employees even had any first-hand information to suppress. I went to their twitter pages and couldn't find any myself.
replies(1): >>tyingq+RP
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96. filole+yz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:38:31
>>qppo+Ci
It is a bit more tricky than that. Here is a simple hypothetical situation I just thought of.

Imagine you are an engineering manager running a team of 10. You got an email from your boss that the project revenue is way lower than projected, so the funding is getting cut and you need to get rid of one of your worst performers, but you have to pick who it is yourself, as your boss probably doesn't even know the actual people on your team. You have to fire them, even though you personally don't want to, because they are performing fine, just worse than all your other engineers.

Whose fault is this? Is it your boss' fault? They don't even pick the person and neither do they know any of them. Is it your fault? You've made the decision to fire that person, even though you don't want to fire them.

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97. asdfas+0A[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:41:43
>>YokoZa+4k
> You are attempting to split hairs that the law doesn't have.

You are a lawyer and are making this claim as someone who is educated in labor law? Or you have a citation to share with us, or something of that nature? Perhaps the chapter and verse of the law that makes this move illegal? Or a case where it was found that workers have the right to publicly comment on other workers' working conditions as long as they work at the same company?

replies(1): >>YokoZa+cm1
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98. filole+1C[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:52:09
>>aabesh+d9
non-factual: Amazon treats their employees poorly, they just don't care about us.

factual: Amazon does this factual thing X and this factual thing Y, and it shouldn't be happening this way.

First one is just an opinion piece, regardless of its truthfulness, because it cannot be evaluated objectively (how to objectively determine whether amazon cares or not? who counts as "amazon" in this scenario? what factual event led to this statement? and on and on).

Second one is a factual statement that can be evaluated on a true/false basis. Events X and Y either happened or they didn't. If they did, the responsibility for those can be traced and evaluated. It leads to actual results, while the former is just an emotional opinion sort of statement, but that's exactly what sells the headlines.

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99. burrow+mC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:54:29
>>katman+aw
> I don't know of a single employer that would be interested in hiring someone who insisted on including a list of nonfirable offenses which included making public statements which paint the company in a bad light.

1. Work for a company that you don’t feel the need to publicly criticize.

2. Start your own company.

3. Increase your market value thru hard work to improve your negotiating position.

> There are many more forms of coercion than just "men with guns“

I don’t want to make assumptions. Please describe forms of coercion other than (threats of) physical violence.

> In this case there technically _is_ coercion by men with guns, albeit a degree or two removed. People need money to keep a roof over their head, and they need jobs to receive that money.

A man’s need for food does not override my natural property rights. He must use his mind to productively participate in commerce. If he does not, he will perish.

> My point here is that there are certain things which the invisible hand of the free market is unable to touch due to the dynamics of the market. That is, in my and many other people's opinion, where the government needs to step in and force the market to make decisions it would be otherwise unwilling to do.

From a consequentialist framework: I suspect the government’s cure will be worse than the disease.

replies(2): >>katman+8J >>8note+al1
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100. dntrkv+2D[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:57:43
>>daenz+1a
That's an interesting point. Would be interested to hear these two's opinion on the firing of Damore.
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101. A4ET8a+LD[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 21:02:16
>>filole+2y
I think part of the issue is that politics appears to have become something akin to a national sport, where we elect to support team A or team B. Because it is similar to a sport, our hopes and dreams, our entire being is drawn into this particular identity. That is why if team A supports position C ( that happened to be supported by team B previously ) it becomes a valid position. I do not know how to make people dislike sports.

I absolutely agree about the importance politics at local level. In fact, this is likely where regular citizens have biggest chance to actually influence an outcome.

replies(1): >>jsheve+5G
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102. missed+tF[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 21:11:20
>>tehjok+gl
I don't think Amazon tries very hard to silence criticism. If you need proof, there are plenty of WaPo op-eds shitting on Amazon.

I don't think it is absurd not to want to employ someone who is an activist against you.

replies(1): >>tehjok+786
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103. missed+yF[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 21:11:59
>>YokoZa+zm
Amazon didn't fire them for organizing.
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104. jsheve+5G[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 21:15:11
>>A4ET8a+LD
Sports and politics can both give people an easy feeling of belonging to something greater than themselves. Both can give you addictive neur-ochemical rushes while interweaving the experience of victory and defeat with tribal identification and othering.

I used to have a condescending attitude towards people who took sports 'way too seriously', but now I wonder if it is a net gain for society to give people a comparatively harmless outlet for these tendencies. Real harm is done when our policy discussions are dominated by the kind of tribalism, ideological intolerance, and rush-seeking engagement that seems to happen when people bring these tendencies to politics.

replies(1): >>rrrrrr+vJ1
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105. danari+CI[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 21:29:14
>>roches+J9
There's a fundamental difference between arbitrary disparagement and making public your genuine concerns about poor working conditions within the company.
replies(1): >>roches+rW
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106. bsder+4J[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 21:32:15
>>alexan+s5
> we'll fire anybody who watches porn

That's not particularly non-sensical, at all. That's a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen.

"We'll fire anybody who plays a game" would qualify as "absurd".

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107. katman+8J[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 21:32:37
>>burrow+mC
Recall that your initial assertion was that "The employee should negotiate “fireable offenses” into his contract." I'm not claiming that this particular "freedom" to openly criticize your employer deserves government intervention, but I really don't see any of your proposed solutions as generally viable. Negotiating that into a contract is not something a significant number of people can do.

>1. Work for a company that you don’t feel the need to publicly criticize.

Absolutely, in an ideal world everyone should. But many people do not and switching jobs can be difficult, particularly for people outside the tech bubble that HN exists in.

>2. Start your own company.

Not everyone can do that, and the skills required to start and run a successful company are almost completely orthogonal to those most people develop in their careers.

>3. Increase your market value thru hard work to improve your negotiating position.

There's a fixed number of people that can be at the top of any market (in proportion to market size), this will only work for a handful of people. It's not a general solution.

>I don’t want to make assumptions. Please describe forms of coercion other than (threats of) physical violence.

Coercion is the opposite of freedom, and in general coercion describes a party "forcing" another party to act in some way contrary to their preference either by force, implied force, or some form of a threat. As an example, a child could be coerced into cleaning their room by their parent shutting down the wifi until the chores were done.

>>In this case there technically _is_ coercion by men with guns, albeit a degree or two removed. People need money to keep a roof over their head, and they need jobs to receive that money. >A man’s need for food does not override my natural property rights. He must use his mind to productively participate in commerce. If he does not, he will perish.

Are you trying to say that people who don't productively use their minds to participate in society deserve to die? How exactly would a hypothetical nonpunishable disparagement clause in an employment contract affect your "natural property rights" in any way?

>>My point here is that there are certain things which the invisible hand of the free market is unable to touch due to the dynamics of the market. That is, in my and many other people's opinion, where the government needs to step in and force the market to make decisions it would be otherwise unwilling to do. This has already been necessary many times before in American history, such as with the ending of slavery, child labor, and the introduction of minimum wage laws. In all of these cases government intervention was necessary to reduce human suffering and raise people's quality of life. Yes, some "market value" was lost in the process but to people with empathy that was a completely worthwhile trade.

>From a consequentialist framework: I suspect the government’s cure will be worse than the disease.

Do you think that the "government's cure" of ending slavery has left people worse off? Are children worse off now that they're required to stay in schools instead of working in mines or textile mills?

Even in the case of this hypothetical nonpunishable disparagement clause, how exactly would it leave people worse off?

replies(1): >>burrow+qP
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108. Zanni+qN[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 21:56:37
>>qppo+Lh
But it sounds like your recipe for responsibility is mob justice. What other possible result could come from publicizing the name of "the person responsible" for the firing?
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109. burrow+qP[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 22:11:26
>>katman+8J
> Negotiating that into a contract is not something a significant number of people can do.

Most people will have to make major concessions to negotiate a clause like this into their contract. I am fine with this.

Do I think a hypothetical works where all employers guaranteed this power to laborers is an improvement over the current one? Maybe, but I am morally imposed to creating this world thru government intervention.

> I'm not claiming that this particular "freedom" to openly criticize your employer deserves government intervention

Noted.

> Absolutely, in an ideal world everyone should. But many people do not and switching jobs can be difficult, particularly for people outside the tech bubble that HN exists in.

It takes hard work to get a better job with more money and benefits, but this is being human. This situation pleases me.

> Not everyone can do that [start a company], and the skills required to start and run a successful company are almost completely orthogonal to those most people develop in their careers.

So prioritize learning these skills over starting a family or whatever else.

> There's a fixed number of people that can be at the top of any market (in proportion to market size), this will only work for a handful of people. It's not a general solution.

I am suspicious of this because there is not a fixed amount of wealth in the world. People at the top of their field create new wealth.

> As an example, a child could be coerced into cleaning their room by their parent shutting down the wifi until the chores were done.

Children make the issue confusing. Let’s say that a man wants to use the WiFi at Starbucks, but he can’t get the password until he purchases something. This isn’t coercion. Starbucks is selling a service, the man can accept or deny the contract. If men with guns force him to buy the coffee, then it’s coercion.

(Edited)

> Are you trying to say that people who don't productively use their minds to participate in society deserve to die?

Yes.

> How exactly would a hypothetical nonpunishable disparagement clause in an employment contract affect your "natural property rights" in any way?

If the government forces me to add this clause to employment contracts, then my right to free association has been violated.

> Do you think that the "government's cure" of ending slavery has left people worse off?

Slavery is evil. I don’t know enough about American abolition to address the specific point. But it is certainly possible to do something evil while intending to resolve some other evil.

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110. tyingq+RP[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 22:15:24
>>kube-s+lz
It doesn't matter whether they had any actual info. It's the perception. Firing them feeds it further.
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111. A4ET8a+qQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 22:19:30
>>freeja+Nm
I just had a minor epiphany. This is exactly what compliance officer is supposed to be.
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112. roches+dU[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 22:48:11
>>throwa+3w
Feel free to point out anywhere the constitution says so. The constitution and/or bill of rights have nothing to do with this situation, as no constitutional rights were broken whatsoever.

>or these statements were in violation of some otherwise unknown confidential settlement agreement

I really have no idea what you're talking about here. What confidential settlement agreement?

>who is to say the employee statements were disparaging? Amazon?

Yes.

>No whether a statement is disparaging or otherwise violates the terms of an agreement is an issue of fact for a fact finder (i.e. jury or more rarely a judge) to determine.

No it's not. This isn't a court of law. It has nothing to do with whether the "agreement" was violated or not, and there is no need for anyone to do any "fact finding". This is an employment arrangement which can unilaterally be ended at any time by either party, and Amazon has chosen to do so.

replies(1): >>throwa+lp2
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113. jsheve+AU[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 22:52:01
>>missed+ji
I also think that small firms should have different rules than companies like Amazon or Walmart, in many domains. Most people agree, and the law reflects this common opinion.

I'm not saying you are necessarily doing the following, but raising the question "at what headcount" is sometimes done to suggest that this is absurd or unfair position. Why should a company with 119 employees be subject to different rules than a company with 120 employees? But this problem exists everywhere we have laws to regulate behavior. What really is the difference between 65 and 66 miles an hour? Is a hot dog really different if it has 86% organ meat vs 85%?

To answer the question, assuming we want to force 'large' companies to play by different rules specifically in the case of tolerating employee criticism, we shouldn't even use headcount as a metric. Some other measure of size should be used.

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114. roches+rW[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 23:06:54
>>danari+CI
Sure, but that has nothing to do with any constitutional protections (or lack thereof) about either of those.
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115. 8note+Hi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 02:44:40
>>burrow+or
They should also unionize, so that they have proper leverage for the negotiation
replies(1): >>burrow+Dk2
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116. 8note+al1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 03:09:15
>>burrow+mC
For the roof though, at least in the US, the property it's on is based on men taking it with guns from the natives. Everything since then where you're keeping people off "your" property is a continuation of that coercion.
replies(1): >>burrow+8X2
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117. YokoZa+cm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 03:21:39
>>asdfas+0A
This large, friendly notice from the government spells it out explicitly: https://www.dol.gov/olms/regs/compliance/EO_Posters/Employee...

> Under the NLRA, it is illegal for your employer to:

> Fire, demote, or transfer you, or reduce your hours or change your shift, or otherwise take adverse action against you, or threaten to take any of these actions, because you join or support a union, or because you engage in concerted activity for mutual aid and protection, or because you choose not to engage in any such activity.

You can get a basic overview of this topic by googling things like NLRA, NLRB, and protected concerted activity, including very recent examples of how these concepts have applied. They're much broader protections than you think, and Amazon has very clearly broken them. That's why their spokesman is giving out contradictory statements like saying that they allow employees to discuss eachother's working conditions, then firing them for exactly that.

Do not fall into the trap of thinking that "the company has a policy" or "at-will employment" means "you have no legal rights".

replies(1): >>cperci+Rs1
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118. YokoZa+un1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 03:33:49
>>xenocy+tb
There are plenty questioning the legality. Workers do have rights in the United States. One of them is to engage in organizing activity for mutual protection, which includes discussing working conditions with the public. Despite the spokesperson's doublespeak, that is exactly what they were fired for.
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119. cperci+Rs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 04:39:25
>>YokoZa+cm1
Right, and that poster specifically talks about your working conditions. It says nothing about a protected right to talk about other people's working conditions.
replies(1): >>YokoZa+eQ1
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120. rrrrrr+vJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 08:13:47
>>jsheve+5G
I mean, in lots of Europe, football matches are one of the only places where flag-waving nationalism isn't a social faux pas. It's obviously a harmless outlet for human tribalistic tendencies and thirst for battle. But Europe has gotten ravaged in living history - you can talk to plenty of Brits today who will tell you stories about taking shelter in the subways while the Nazis bombed London. Americans don't really have a living memory of going to war with our neighbors and having our homeland pummeled - wars are a thing waged in faraway lands with people from strange and different cultures, so nationalism is allowed to flourish without any acknowledgement of its toxicity to humanity as a whole.

Tribalism in America goes deep, and you're right: rooting for a sports team is fairly harmless, and rooting for a political party is probably harmful, but I'd argue it's not nearly as harmful as as rooting blindly for an ideology. If you want your party to succeed, you should be engaged in your local politics, talk to people from the other side, listen honestly to their concerns, be willing to change your own opinion on specific policies, and push for those sensible policy changes to be adopted as part of your local party's platform. That's how you win people over, that's how you win elections, and how you enact real change that affects people's lives. Anything else is just yelling into your echo chamber, or getting into bar fights with the guys wearing the "wrong" jerseys.

Ideologies form the axes of socioeconomic space, they're not an ideal point, and the push toward an "us versus them" mentality in politics is embarrassing. It's a quirk that's arisen out of new media, an easily exploitable bug, and the sooner people see through the bullshit and we outgrow this, the better.

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121. YokoZa+eQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 09:48:41
>>cperci+Rs1
The phrase "mutual aid" is right there. As is "organizing". These things imply an ability to cooperate with coworkers. These laws were made to explicitly protect collective bargaining, which absolutely implies other people.
replies(1): >>cperci+Fr2
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122. pas+WR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 10:09:40
>>roches+y2
Sources please!
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123. burrow+Dk2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 14:14:20
>>8note+Hi1
Does the union have special privileges granted by the state, or is it simply a group freely contracted between laborers?
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124. throwa+lp2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 14:35:51
>>roches+dU
You don't seem to understand 1st Amendment Law and protections; contract law; nor employment law.

>This is an employment arrangement which can unilaterally be ended at any time by either party, and Amazon has chosen to do so.

Yes, at will employment gives the parties the right to terminate the employment...but, Amazon can not terminate an employee for any reason. For example Amazon can't fire a employee for their race, or religion, or sexual preference. You may want to Google "workplace retaliation cases", because Amazon can not retaliate by firing an employee for reporting workplace safety concerns.

replies(1): >>roches+zB2
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125. cperci+Fr2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 14:47:12
>>YokoZa+eQ1
They imply other people, yes; but mutual implies both sides. If you're only talking about other people's working conditions and never talking about your own, there's nothing mutual going on.
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126. roches+zB2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 15:34:11
>>throwa+lp2
edit: in the interest of being less combative I've reworded this entire comment.

The First Amendment does not apply to this situation. The First Amendment applies to restrictions to speech from the government, but provides no rights or privileges when it comes to repercussions from private entities.

>For example Amazon can't fire a employee for their race, or religion, or sexual preference. >because Amazon can not retaliate by firing an employee for reporting workplace safety concerns.

Correct, but this isn't why they were fired.

There may be some gray area where the workers could claim protection under the NLRA if they but that really depends on additional details not provided in any of the reporting so far (such as which company policies they broke), and that has nothing to do with any constitutional rights.

replies(1): >>throwa+tc3
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127. burrow+8X2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 17:11:37
>>8note+al1
Assume the land was stolen.

The people who stole the land are dead. The people who were stolen from are dead.

The point is moot.

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128. throwa+tc3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 18:29:15
>>roches+zB2
>The First Amendment applies to restrictions to speech from the government, but provides no rights or privileges when it comes to repercussions from private entities.

This is generally true but there are exceptions, which funny enough you acknowledge one of them in your comment.

The National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) gives private-sector employees the right to discuss their working conditions, which is considered “protected concerted activity.” They can share information about pay, benefits, safety and other work-related issues — and they can do it in the break room, at happy hour or on social media (such as Facebook and Twitter).

Real-world example of workplace freedom of speech:

Situation: A group of employees who worked for a retail store in San Francisco were concerned about their safety due to their store’s closing an hour later than other nearby stores. After unsuccessful discussions with the manager and later, the owner, the employees posted their frustrations on Facebook. An employee who saw the posts showed them to the owner, and subsequently, the other three employees were fired.

Ruling: The National Labor Relations Board reviewed the Facebook posts and determined they were acceptable. The employees were discussing the store’s legitimate safety concerns, so the posts were considered protected under the NLRA. It was determined that the employer committed an unfair labor practice by firing the employees.

What is otherwise not protected speech becomes protected speech.

>Correct, but this isn't why they were fired.

Amazon published a press release on the matter acknowledging they fired the employees for their posts about safety in the work place...it doesn't matter Amazon claims the post violated company policy, these employees have legal right to discuss their working conditions, which is considered “protected concerted activity.”

As you may or may not know the NLRA protections come from the Constitutional Right to association, which is an essential part of freedom of speech. While the United States Constitution's First Amendment identifies the rights to assemble and to petition the government, the text of the First Amendment does not make specific mention of a right to association. Nevertheless, the United States Supreme Court held in NAACP v. Alabama (1958) that freedom of association is an essential part of freedom of speech because, in many cases, people can engage in effective speech only when they join with others.

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129. tehjok+786[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-16 19:17:10
>>missed+tF
I don't think it is absurd to exile someone critical of the country's administration.
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