zlacker

[parent] [thread] 50 comments
1. goneho+(OP)[view] [source] 2019-12-06 20:44:35
There was a twitter video that comically showed their marketing demo of the whale and then the real life example of the product (with related music).

It appears to have been scrubbed from the internet though because I was trying to find it a while back to show someone and I searched for a while, but couldn't find anything.

Magic Leap seems like a case study of how not to release a product, but maybe they were more focused on raising money?

Either work on your thing in public, shipping units (Oculus/FB) or work on it entirely in secret (Apple), but don't loudly and continuously talk vaguely about how amazing your thing is with no real public examples for years. This plus all the fake marketing video demos - if you're going to do this you better be as good as you're pretending to be.

Someone that good probably wouldn't need to show marketing videos, they'd just show the product itself.

I finally did get to play with one (friend who personally knows an investor had one) and it was pretty disappointing. AR seems likely to be the next computing platform, but the hardware is not ready yet.

Magic Leap reminds me a lot of the General Magic documentary - crazy hype, right general idea, but too early and bad product.

I'm not sure if they have the same talent General Magic had though.

replies(7): >>Andrew+Q >>ryandr+C3 >>DonHop+B5 >>dylan6+E6 >>simonh+Hc >>csalle+Ou >>Abishe+cM
2. Andrew+Q[view] [source] 2019-12-06 20:49:17
>>goneho+(OP)
I believe this is what you're referencing:

https://twitter.com/fernandojsg/status/1017411969169555457

replies(2): >>fastba+6c >>derang+8H
3. ryandr+C3[view] [source] 2019-12-06 21:11:14
>>goneho+(OP)
Yet everyone was so optimistic and believed the hype. And it happens again and again! Whenever some early stage company/product gets some traction on HN that looks like hype-ware, the default reaction always seems to be excitement and optimism, rather than doubt and skepticism. Nobody's learned from Theranos. It's like we all adhere to that X-files poster "I WANT TO BELIEVE" over and over.
replies(4): >>DonHop+e6 >>Aeolun+E8 >>goneho+X8 >>icelan+Lb
4. DonHop+B5[view] [source] 2019-12-06 21:27:20
>>goneho+(OP)
There was some overlap, and both had lots of "Magic" hype, but there were some really great people working at General Magic, and not nearly as high a level of narcissistic bullshit and self aggrandization and utterly dishonest marketing as from Magic Leap.

I mean, come on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8J5BWL8oJY

replies(2): >>dreamc+F6 >>soup10+AE
◧◩
5. DonHop+e6[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 21:32:38
>>ryandr+C3
Not everybody believed the hype. The first time I saw their original TedX video I knew for sure that Magic Leap was totally full of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8J5BWL8oJY

6. dylan6+E6[view] [source] 2019-12-06 21:35:35
>>goneho+(OP)
Magic Leap reminds me of Theranos. The companies with vaporware seem to have very similar playbooks that are pretty obvious with how in your face they are while never actually showing the product.
replies(2): >>tmh79+l8 >>jdminh+Ku
◧◩
7. dreamc+F6[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 21:35:40
>>DonHop+B5
Completely agree. The GM people were competent without being arrogant. They failed only because cellular data networks were not good enough at the time.
replies(1): >>DonHop+98
◧◩◪
8. DonHop+98[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 21:48:43
>>dreamc+F6
Bill Atkinson is the humblest, sweetest, most astronomically talented guy -- practically the opposite of Rony Abovitz! I think they're on very different drugs.

The Psychedelic Inspiration For Hypercard, by Bill Atkinson, as told to Leo Laporte.

"In 1985 I swallowed a tiny fleck of gelatin containing a medium dose of LSD, and I spent most of the night sitting on a concrete park bench outside my home in Los Gatos, California." ...

https://www.mondo2000.com/2018/06/18/the-inspiration-for-hyp...

Full interview with lots more details about the development of HyperCard:

https://twit.tv/shows/triangulation/episodes/247?autostart=f...

Bill Atkinson's guest lecture in Brad Meyer's CMU 05-640 Interaction Techniques class, Spring 2019, Feb 4, 2019:

https://scs.hosted.panopto.com/Panopto/Pages/Viewer.aspx?id=...

Including polaroids of early Lisa development.

About PhotoCard:

http://www.billatkinson.com/aboutPhotoCard.html

PhotoCard by Bill Atkinson is a free app available from the iTunes App store, that allows you to create custom postcards using Bill's nature photos or your own personal photos, then send them by email or postal mail from your iPad, iPhone or iPod touch.

Bill Atkinson, Mac software legend and world renowned nature photographer, has created an innovative application that redefines how people create and send postcards.

With PhotoCard you can make dazzling, high resolution postcards on your iPad, iPhone or iPod touch, and send them on-the-spot, through email or the US Postal Service. The app is amazingly easy to use. To create a PhotoCard, select one of Bill's nature photos or one of your own personal photos. Then, flip the card over to type your message. For a fun touch, jazz up your PhotoCard with decorative stickers and stamps. If you're emailing your card, it can even include an audible greeting. When you've finished your creation, send it off to any email or postal address in the world!

replies(1): >>dreamc+0g
◧◩
9. tmh79+l8[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 21:49:44
>>dylan6+E6
I have some VC friends tangentially related to the deal. Apparently the original demo was wild, like real magic bonkers. Everyone who tried became a believer. The projected light streams onto the user's eyes so instead of seeing an image overlayed in an intermediate layer as in most AR, the image was projected onto your retinas through this very advanced technology and optics. The issue is that the advanced technology demo used an entire room of computers and sensors for a single user, and it didn't allow the user to move around at all, just sit in a chair and have this thing projected onto your eyes. The goal was to scale this working crazy but impractacle thing into a consumer experience but they just weren't able to, so they pivoted to being another "smart glass" maker. Their tech and patents still actually work, they just aren't able to make a product out of it.
replies(4): >>DuskSt+Og >>keenma+4m >>jjeaff+3H >>golerg+Ec1
◧◩
10. Aeolun+E8[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 21:52:51
>>ryandr+C3
I don’t think this was ever the case for Magic Leap. All threads were always full of ‘I think this is waaaay too much funding for something we haven’t even seem yet’.

I’m just confused how the press and investors were misled in such a miraculous way.

replies(1): >>DonHop+Ja
◧◩
11. goneho+X8[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 21:54:02
>>ryandr+C3
I think this is generally a good thing about Silicon Valley culture.

It’s the reason you get successes like Tesla or SpaceX and it’s generally good to bias towards optimism over pessimism - you get more people able to try more things and successes that have exponential returns make up for the failures.

Otherwise you get stagnation which ends poorly for everyone.

That said, optimism still requires a plan that makes sense and shipping a real product.

◧◩◪
12. DonHop+Ja[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 22:05:20
>>Aeolun+E8
The most convincing "argument" for them was "well, they fooled Google into giving them a half a billion dollars, so they must have something there."
replies(2): >>kbenso+Fl >>gumby+Yx
◧◩
13. icelan+Lb[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 22:14:26
>>ryandr+C3
Definitely not. HN is more pessimistic than any other forum I'm on besides Slashdot (the famous iPod burn, of course).

Are you forgetting Dropbox / "that's just rsync" and various other skeptics? No one likes anything here that seems flashy. And that's a good thing.

◧◩
14. fastba+6c[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 22:17:22
>>Andrew+Q
Oh man I'd forgotten about that edit.

Cracks me up every time.

replies(1): >>rl3+tx
15. simonh+Hc[view] [source] 2019-12-06 22:20:42
>>goneho+(OP)
I don’t know if any are at Magic Leap, but other General Magic alumni include Andy Rubin (Android) and Tony Fadell (iPod) so at least some of them did ok eventually.
replies(1): >>vkou+mQ
◧◩◪◨
16. dreamc+0g[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 22:46:13
>>DonHop+98
Thanks for that. Bill's been a hero of mine since I did Mac development on a Lisa using photocopied binders of Inside Macintosh mailed to me by Guy Kawasaki. Those were the days.
◧◩◪
17. DuskSt+Og[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 22:55:00
>>tmh79+l8
If I could get something like that as a desktop monitor replacement, I would be ecstatic. (Assuming appropriately high resolution and refresh rates - but if it's doing eye tracking that'd have to be the case)
replies(1): >>saalwe+Nl
◧◩◪◨
18. kbenso+Fl[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 23:31:23
>>DonHop+Ja
Well, trust by proxy is what makes civilization work. But having some percentage of the populace that's always skeptical of the trust imparted like that is also essential.

Usually, Google being willing to give a company hundreds of millions of dollars is enough, because you assume whoever's job it is to give out all that money takes it seriously. Unfortunately, sometimes the more money is involved the harder it is for skeptics to get their own message out, since nobody wants to believe that all the money they've invested has been a poor choice. Just look at Uber. Any company that didn't have so many billions invested in it would have failed because of the internal problems they have long ago.

◧◩◪◨
19. saalwe+Nl[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 23:32:56
>>DuskSt+Og
I know that "light going into your eyeball" is how your eyes work, and that conventional monitors are not suspected to be great for your eyes, but "shoot light directly at your retinas" always makes me nervous.
replies(3): >>joejer+fv >>rl3+Yw >>XorNot+t41
◧◩◪
20. keenma+4m[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-06 23:34:08
>>tmh79+l8
Miniaturization of multifocal projection-based technology seems inevitable. What's the best way to keep track of progress in that field, and do you know when it might hit the mass market?
◧◩
21. jdminh+Ku[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 01:00:19
>>dylan6+E6
> Magic Leap reminds me of Theranos.

Even if Magic Leap dies on the vine, I don't think they're anything like Theranos except for both being unsuccessful VC-funded companies. Theranos tried to sell fraudulent health care services. Magic Leap is trying (and failing) to build a real product. You can buy one and see what it does, and nobody's health is impacted if their experience just sucks.

replies(1): >>fuzzfa+JD
22. csalle+Ou[view] [source] 2019-12-07 01:00:58
>>goneho+(OP)
Google did the same thing with Glass. They had super slick concept video that went viral, and the real product couldn't be anything but a disappointment after that.
replies(1): >>Rapzid+Vz
◧◩◪◨⬒
23. joejer+fv[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 01:07:16
>>saalwe+Nl
Right?!! What could possibly go wrong?
replies(1): >>Baeocy+Gz
◧◩◪◨⬒
24. rl3+Yw[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 01:32:53
>>saalwe+Nl
I suspect in about 20-30 years that method will be considered antiquated, and brain implants with direct access to the user's visual cortex will be far more sensible for that kind of thing.
replies(1): >>6gvONx+NC
◧◩◪
25. rl3+tx[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 01:41:17
>>fastba+6c
Likewise. The same meme was also used for trashing the sorry state of No Man's Sky release in 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5jWtz3rzco

To their credit, the developers diligently kept working on the game and I've heard it's quite polished now. I kind of doubt we'll see the same turnaround story with Magic Leap, but who knows.

replies(1): >>dmix+NA
◧◩◪◨
26. gumby+Yx[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 01:46:56
>>DonHop+Ja
My understanding is that sergey wanted to do it and he can effectively write checks right off the balance sheet. Google Ventures passed, as folks were always eager to tell me.
replies(1): >>DonHop+Ay
◧◩◪◨⬒
27. DonHop+Ay[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 01:58:38
>>gumby+Yx
Sounds like that's the same way Google Glass got funded, too. I wonder what Sergey Brin thought of the nepotism at Magic Leap that he funded, documented in the sexual discrimination lawsuit?

http://valleywag.gawker.com/meet-the-google-founders-mistres...

>Since Google Glass launched to our awe and horror, the company's co-founder, Sergey Brin, hasn't been spotted without a pair. He's placed himself atop the privacy-eroding project, publicly, and inside Google's secret labs. Maybe it's because he's fucking the Glass marketing manager, Amanda Rosenberg.

>According to a startling report by AllThingsD's Liz Gannes and Kara Swisher, Brin and his wife of six years, Anne Wojcicki, are no more, now that he's found himself a PR girlfriend at Google. AllThingsD also reported this girlfriend was recently attached to another (totally coincidentally departing) top Googler, Hugo Barra, to make Brin's relationship with the recent San Francisco transplant behind the backs of his wife and children all that much worse.

https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discriminat...

>"Eric Akerman, vice president of IT, is a high school buddy of Abovitz. He is a loud and outspoken and several misogynistic comments have emanated from his department and from him."

>"Vice president of IT Akerman, on Nov. 8, 2016, told a large group of people who asked why he voted for Trump that it was 'because Melania is hot.'"

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
28. Baeocy+Gz[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 02:16:20
>>joejer+fv
I'm sure they have software interlocks to make sure nothing bad happens with the energy levels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

◧◩
29. Rapzid+Vz[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 02:20:32
>>csalle+Ou
I was disappointed that the one I tried, I couldn't even get the UI to respond properly. Maybe it was just that unit but I could swear I recall reading of others have similar issues with the interface.
◧◩◪◨
30. dmix+NA[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 02:35:35
>>rl3+tx
Nice video explaining No Man Sky’s evolution: https://youtu.be/uzvxn6l50co

Anyone who has worked in software knows the difference between expectations/projections and real life. Everything takes 10x longer once you dig into the details. So it’s great to see a gaming company able to adapt and continually release through those down moments and eventually produce something great.

It makes you wonder how much better other games could be if they took an incremental approach and continually expanded the world available to users.

replies(2): >>greggm+cE >>Causal+oH
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
31. 6gvONx+NC[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 03:06:00
>>rl3+Yw
AR brain implants in 20-30 years? We can't even cure hemorrhoids. No way that timeline is accurate.
replies(1): >>rl3+WG
◧◩◪
32. fuzzfa+JD[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 03:25:29
>>jdminh+Ku
Theranos failed to sell automatic blood testing machines to the military so they pivoted to providing services of questionable repute.
◧◩◪◨⬒
33. greggm+cE[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 03:35:30
>>dmix+NA
I didn't get No Man's Sky until this August when they released the VR version. I got it on sale fully expecting to spent only 20 minutes with it. I just wanted to see it in VR. I ended up spending 20 hrs. I felt like a little kid pretending to be in space. It was awesome. About 15hrs in I tried non-VR for a moment. Couldn't take it. There are many things I'd change about the game but being in space in VR was amazing.
◧◩
34. soup10+AE[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 03:41:43
>>DonHop+B5
you know that's not even the worst ted talk i've seen
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
35. rl3+WG[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 04:23:57
>>6gvONx+NC
Not saying it'll be commonplace by then, just that the technology will probably exist.

As I understand it today, Neuralink already has a surgical robot that can thread electrodes in between individual neurons with minimal damage.

replies(1): >>6gvONx+RM
◧◩◪
36. jjeaff+3H[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 04:26:16
>>tmh79+l8
That makes sense. Because I heard on a podcast, this week in tech, I think, from a VC on the panel that was an investor and the rest of the panel was comparing it to Microsoft's ar product and he was adamant that he had seen things that he couldn't talk specifics about but that it was a total game changer.
replies(1): >>NotSam+wO
◧◩
37. derang+8H[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 04:27:21
>>Andrew+Q
Thank you for that link haha
◧◩◪◨⬒
38. Causal+oH[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 04:31:38
>>dmix+NA
For me it's a very conflicted project. All they've done since release has been admirable, and NMS is now a good game well-worth the fee. Thing is, most of that work should've been done before release, and is it right to commend a company for marketing creme-filled donuts and then sending us the creme in the mail eighteen months later? Even so, I would've said yes it is, except for one issue: they still refuse to apologize for deliberately lying to us about launch features. They deflect, they say they got too excited, too ambitious. What they don't do is admit the moral failure inherent in marketing features they hadn't even begun adding to the code base. They didn't even start to try until after they got caught lying and they still refuse to admit it.
replies(2): >>aspace+2R >>dmix+Us1
39. Abishe+cM[view] [source] 2019-12-07 06:09:47
>>goneho+(OP)
Apparently in actual product, the whale demo was liked by many incl. Adam Savage[1]. It seems, magic leap was able to map the windows in a room and was able to bring in the whale from outside via the window.

[1]https://youtu.be/0N2HqCdsSGM?t=387

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
40. 6gvONx+RM[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 06:23:34
>>rl3+WG
Neuroprosthetics as a field has a fairly long history. It's fascinating. However, it moves slowly, like most everything else human body related.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroprosthetics#History

◧◩◪◨
41. NotSam+wO[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 07:04:37
>>jjeaff+3H
What podcast & episode was that?
replies(1): >>jjeaff+UK7
◧◩
42. vkou+mQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 07:48:52
>>simonh+Hc
Yeah, especially with the 87 million in 'quit quietly' money that Andy got for harassing his coworkers.
replies(1): >>rasz+J62
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
43. aspace+2R[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 08:05:50
>>Causal+oH
But when it’s Sony co-marketing can you really blame them?

It was their first time ever getting that kind of attention from a publisher and they screwed it up. That’s how I’ve interpreted it at least.

replies(1): >>vander+HW
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
44. vander+HW[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 10:06:46
>>aspace+2R
Yes, you can, and if we don't hold this kind of behavior accountable it will keep happening.
replies(1): >>aspace+ik3
◧◩◪◨⬒
45. XorNot+t41[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 12:28:55
>>saalwe+Nl
Monitors are bad for your eyes because of the strain of long term focusing at a plane a short distance away - not because of the light hitting your retinas.

Lasers are dangerous to the eye because there's no real ramp up for the beam - you can produce an almost arbitrarily powerful pin-prick of light which gives you no warning before it's all hitting the same spot on your retina and destroying it. The beam doesn't diffract of diffuse because it's all one wavelength and colliminated so it puts all that energy suddenly on one part of the eye.

But that property is also what makes the idea of using them for VR/AR amazing: because you could more or less directly target individual parts of the retina with no diffraction, then there's no eyestrain - everything can be made always in focus because the nature of the beam means it essentially bypasses your eye's lens. Your eyes relax because you think everything's in focus already.

◧◩◪
46. golerg+Ec1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 14:30:53
>>tmh79+l8
I've had a similar demo a few years ago from some under-the-radar Israeli company, projecting image straight to the retina. It took only a single table, and they talked about how their tech was actually better than Magic Leap – but as most of Israeli high tech, they were looking to get silently acquired by some tech giant instead of developing a product themselves. Never heard of what happened to them later.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
47. dmix+Us1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 17:30:51
>>Causal+oH
So many companies think they can pull a fast one and ignore/downplay mistakes with PR speak which is so stupid in 2019.

Information can’t be controlled, people aren’t stupid, and honesty goes a lot further to regain respect and patience... than some bullshit positive spin.

Sadly entrepreneurs and the business community cares more about pushing persuasion and clever tactics than merely being human and honest to your customers.

So agreed the iterative approach is excellent and dedication after getting panned in reviews is rare and should be encouraged... but their communication? Not so much.

◧◩◪
48. rasz+J62[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 01:50:45
>>vkou+mQ
Lets not forget Rubins own mini me Magic Leap by taking over control of CastAR https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/27/andy-rubin-backed-ar-hardw...

and burning it to the ground with brilliant 'lets drop $100K for cardboard box design' and buy a gaming studio management https://theamphour.com/394-jeri-ellsworth-and-the-demise-of-...

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
49. aspace+ik3[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 21:46:13
>>vander+HW
No, no. I mean who should you hold accountable. I'd rather hold Sony's marketing, than a bunch of developers who finally got their shot.

Like it's understandable to me that a small software team would sell their big shot as something huge. It's the job of a publisher like Sony to keep consumers' expectations in check.

Hold the right people accountable lest it will also keep happening.

replies(1): >>vander+KZ4
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
50. vander+KZ4[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-09 18:27:52
>>aspace+ik3
I do agree that it would be unfair to only hold the small indy company accountable - but both they and Sony deserve criticism in their own way
◧◩◪◨⬒
51. jjeaff+UK7[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-10 18:54:53
>>NotSam+wO
It was TWiT. No idea what episode. I believe it was Calacanis that was the investor that said that though.
[go to top]