zlacker

[parent] [thread] 60 comments
1. ptx+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-12-27 16:51:52
He laments that users "don't know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest", but wasn't this the point of Open Source as compared to Free Software, to refocus the messaging from the user's freedoms to the economic benefit for companies?

The Free Software Definition mentions "user" 22 times and "freedom" 79 times, whereas the Open Source Definition has zero occurrences of these terms. It doesn't seem surprising that the user freedom message isn't getting through if you completely scrub it from the messaging.

replies(10): >>playin+v3 >>phkahl+jc >>api+td >>candid+Le >>oooyay+3g >>kazina+Ug >>nparaf+9h >>em-bee+NC >>User23+Jr1 >>emoden+yO1
2. playin+v3[view] [source] 2023-12-27 17:12:06
>>ptx+(OP)
> point of Open Source as compared to Free Software

While what we know now is that Free came first and indeed Open Source was a different "offering" with a different focus, a response to it...

... I must admit I have heard and actually started to love Open Source several years before even hearing of Free Software

replies(2): >>gumby+1a >>trelan+rl
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3. gumby+1a[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-27 17:49:38
>>playin+v3
…due to those corporate interests.

I am a big fan of capitalism but it does have a tendency to drive out human discourse, as in this case, when companies think there is money to be made.

replies(1): >>zx8080+7p1
4. phkahl+jc[view] [source] 2023-12-27 18:00:57
>>ptx+(OP)
Agreed. And if BP really wants to change this, he needs to focus on Free Software as a starting point, not Open Source. He complains about RedHat/IBM circumventing the GPL but completely missing the fact that the "more permissive" open source licenses actually condone such behavior. They would even allow IBM to not provide source to their own customers, nevermind prohibiting redistribution.

IMHO the biggest threat to Free Software is the proliferation of open source software. And so the biggest threat to all the open source users/lovers is their own lack of a meaningful philosophy on licensing.

replies(4): >>dlltho+3w1 >>worthl+FI1 >>kaashi+OJ1 >>m463+dR1
5. api+td[view] [source] 2023-12-27 18:06:48
>>ptx+(OP)
“Open source” is free labor for SaaS companies, while the insistence on liberal free (as in beer) licenses makes it almost impossible to build a software business in any other way by flooding the market.

SaaS is the least free model for software. You have no privacy, no control, and in most cases can’t even export your data.

Thus open source actually minimizes freedom in practice, at least for everyone other than developers.

replies(1): >>kazina+qh
6. candid+Le[view] [source] 2023-12-27 18:13:57
>>ptx+(OP)
IMO, the SSPL solves this. If you only use/develop FOSS stuff as RMS intended, you can use SSPL without an issue. Don't use or develop FOSS everywhere? Pay for a separate license. It's unfortunate that OSI and friends are OK with the AGPL but not the SSPL, and IMO shows that they think the status quo is OK when clearly it's sustainable for FOSS creators.
replies(4): >>trelan+Sx >>joseph+wl1 >>jwitth+3x1 >>kapilv+KF3
7. oooyay+3g[view] [source] 2023-12-27 18:20:13
>>ptx+(OP)
Yeah, I struggle with this conceptually. Projects like Kubernetes cannot be developed without corporations investing their engineers time. For that, they want a say in direction - maybe more fairly put, they want their problems and objectives on the table whether it benefits the project or not. Just reading the top 10 contributors to Kubernetes:

- Google

- Microsoft

- AWS

- Databricks

Most all of these companies have at one point or another coopted a project, sucked its life blood dry for their own means, and abandoned it. It's a weird, toxic relationship that we accept as normal because some projects can't do without corporate engineer time and money.

FOSS is kind of a different ballgame though. When I think of FOSS I think of my AppStore on PopOS; the apps there are sophisticated and useable, but if I'm being honest they're rarely "the best" at what they do. There's never been a FOSS CAD software that rivals proprietary alternatives, the email clients are lackluster at best, even IRC tends to take a back seat. That isn't to say the apps are bad, they're just not going to be "the best" usually.

Ideally we'd have a single license that encourages corporate use, adoption, and contribution but doesn't encourage them to coopt a project by injecting their engineers and interests into the management of said projects. Ideally there'd be a way for corporate interests to make money reselling software while also paying back, in proportion, to the project. That all seems like a very complicated balancing act.

replies(3): >>kibwen+Ps1 >>sidlls+Us1 >>ric2b+e22
8. kazina+Ug[view] [source] 2023-12-27 18:24:06
>>ptx+(OP)
The freedoms we promote require users to run locally installed software, which people are no longer able to do for important applications.
replies(2): >>apante+gB >>ric2b+G22
9. nparaf+9h[view] [source] 2023-12-27 18:25:25
>>ptx+(OP)
> is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company's systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary.

This most certainly wouldn't have happened if "open source realism" didn't stood against free software "utopian" idealists. I still remember the "Linux Kernel is now in most devices in the world" when Android came out. This didn't went well, didn't it?

Lastly, isn't redhat an enthusiastic supporter of open source ? The domain https://opensource.com/ is literally copyrighted and supported by redhat...

replies(2): >>trelan+Ij >>pabs3+Ky1
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10. kazina+qh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-27 18:27:03
>>api+td
Exactly! FOSS has been the unwitting enabler behind locking people down in giant SaaS silos.
replies(2): >>api+tn >>lmm+NJ1
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11. trelan+Ij[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-27 18:41:23
>>nparaf+9h
> I still remember the "Linux Kernel is now in most devices in the world" when Android came out. This didn't went well, didn't it?

I don't understand your point here. Could you please make it again, more directly?

replies(2): >>aragil+Hy1 >>nparaf+6N1
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12. trelan+rl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-27 18:50:04
>>playin+v3
I think open source came first, though it wasn't thought of as such at the time. Sharing the source was just what some folks did. A company locking down the source to a printer was one if the reasons Stallmann decided to make the GPL.

"I noticed this because I had the good fortune in the 1970's to be part of a community of programmers who shared software. Now, this community could trace its ancestry essentially back to the beginning of computing."

[...]

"And then I heard that somebody at Carnegie Mellon University had a copy of that software [for the broken printer]. So I was visiting there later, so I went to his office and I said, "Hi, I'm from MIT. Could I have a copy of the printer source code?" And he said "No, I promised not to give you a copy." [Laughter] I was stunned. I was so -- I was angry, and I had no idea how I could do justice to it. All I could think of was to turn around on my heel and walk out of his room. Maybe I slammed the door. [Laughter] And I thought about it later on, because I realized that I was seeing not just an isolated jerk, but a social phenomenon that was important and affected a lot of people."

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/rms-nyu-2001-transcript.txt

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13. api+tn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-27 19:00:04
>>kazina+qh
I’ve seen this for years but so far it’s been hard to get others to see it. It requires holistic “systems thinking.” You have to go beyond the letter and the intent of the license or the open source movement and look at the overall effect it has on the incentive structure of the market.

It’s extremely common for well intentioned policies and movements to have perverse effects that aren’t anticipated because the effect emerges from the whole system rather than from any single part in isolation.

The effect of a thing is pretty much unrelated to its intent, hence the saying “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” The root problem is that humans are awful at understanding how a policy will manifest when embedded in a complex system.

I think this is also why every attempt at central planning a whole society ultimately fails.

replies(1): >>paulry+pb1
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14. trelan+Sx[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-27 19:58:53
>>candid+Le
Given that dual licensing has been a thing for a long time, what problem does SSPL solve, and how does it do so such that GPL does not?
replies(1): >>candid+cA
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15. candid+cA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-27 20:09:21
>>trelan+Sx
SSPL has more teeth and less workarounds than the regular GPL/AGPL and forces more dual licensing conversations.
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16. apante+gB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-27 20:14:00
>>kazina+Ug
Yeah this is the elephant in the room. Running a powerful, centralized web service that gets accessed by many users on many different clients with everything synchronized and patched and updated in one place is such a better model than self-hosted for so many software use cases.

Edit: simplified.

replies(2): >>mpol+Bi1 >>zx8080+wp1
17. em-bee+NC[view] [source] 2023-12-27 20:21:03
>>ptx+(OP)
He laments that users "don't know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest", but wasn't this the point of Open Source as compared to Free Software

true, but to anyone who paid attention at the time, bruce perens already pointed out this problem only one year after announcing the open source initiative: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1999/02/msg01641.html

so not only is this problem not new, but also at least bruce perens has been aware of it all this time.

but what is happening today probably would have happened without the promotion of open source as well. so i agree, that it is time to act. GPLv4 anyone?

replies(1): >>Hideou+2R1
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18. paulry+pb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-27 23:57:47
>>api+tn
I'm not convinced. The moment software could be released half baked, then patched later, the door for subscription pricing was open. Then the browser growing into an application platform moved things onto the server where it was easier to update things.

FOSS may have accelerated things slightly, yet the mediocre quality and incompleteness held back its impact for a long time. Server side those deficiencies were less visible and could be addressed more gradually. Ultimately I think SAAS was inevitable as everything shifted online. Now even single-player, closed source games require an Internet connection.

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19. mpol+Bi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 01:09:33
>>apante+gB
And then the service stops, for business reasons, and the user is left holding the bag.

This is very much the opposite of the spirit of free software. It's a feudal system.

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20. joseph+wl1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 01:40:55
>>candid+Le
> If you only use/develop FOSS stuff as RMS intended, you can use SSPL without an issue.

No, because "FOSS stuff as RMS intended" explicitly excludes the SSPL.

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21. zx8080+7p1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 02:16:06
>>gumby+1a
> when companies think there is money to be made.

Meaning "always when there's business to make"? Because when there's no money to make it's not business (and not about capitalism) anymore.

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22. zx8080+wp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 02:19:23
>>apante+gB
Sure if not taking privacy ("is my data being sold to competitors and anyone who pays? Will it leak to the web?") and strategic vision ("will this critical dependency be shutdown tomorrow") into consideration.

Other than that it's cool, sure.

23. User23+Jr1[view] [source] 2023-12-28 02:40:32
>>ptx+(OP)
Yep. To my read this is Open Source(tm) getting exactly what they said they wanted.
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24. kibwen+Ps1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 02:51:46
>>oooyay+3g
> the email clients are lackluster at best

To be fair, "lackluster at best" describes every email client ever made, proprietary or otherwise (though proprietary ones are better at hiding this under a shiny veneer).

Meanwhile, Kubernetes is probably a bad example, because nobody but large companies need Kubernetes, in the same way that we do not lament that people cannot build a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier in their garage.

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25. sidlls+Us1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 02:52:21
>>oooyay+3g
FOSS offerings are almost always worse than their commercial competitors because of one obvious thing: people (that includes software engineers) need to eat and have shelter, and for 99.9% of us that means working for a living. Companies pay people to work on products that other people buy, ideally at a profit for the company. FOSS creators are rarely compensated meaningfully compared to the effort put in. The natural consequence of this is that most good engineers are not going to put much, if any, time in developing FOSS applications. The natural consequence of that is that these offerings aren't going to be as good.
replies(1): >>nradov+CK1
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26. dlltho+3w1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 03:27:15
>>phkahl+jc
> the fact that the "more permissive" open source licenses actually condone such behavior

The permissive Free Software licenses do the same, being the same licenses.

replies(1): >>emoden+FO1
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27. jwitth+3x1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 03:35:48
>>candid+Le
The SSPL is notable in that it effectively forbids hosting the software to be used by other people.

To comply you must provide 'the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service'

A plain reading of this means that for a standard web app you would need to release not just the application code, but also code for the web server you are using, the os you are using, its drivers, device firmware, the os/firmware for your routers, your deployment stack, and probably more I'm missing. You better not trigger a deployment from a Windows computer using Chrome!

Even if I'm using open-source stuff for all of that it would need to have licenses compatible with SSPL such that I can relicense and release them all under the SSPL. I believe GPL is incompatible so that counts out most software I would use to host a webapp.

To me it seems like a fundamentally unreasonable license because for all practical purposes it is entirely impossible to comply with section 13.

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28. aragil+Hy1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 03:49:42
>>trelan+Ij
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Perens is the interviewee. He helped create OSI, which pushed Open Source (vs Free Software).
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29. pabs3+Ky1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 03:50:25
>>nparaf+9h
RedHat no longer pays the people who worked on the articles at opensource.com, they all got fired in the recent layoffs.
replies(1): >>nparaf+mN1
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30. worthl+FI1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 05:43:04
>>phkahl+jc
I do not understand bruces concern, maybe someone can make it clear to me.

The source IS made available to software. The license clearly says you must make it availble in the same method you get the binaries, which is what is happening here.

What "circumvention" is going on ?

replies(1): >>tsimio+bK1
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31. lmm+NJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 05:55:25
>>kazina+qh
Note that it's specifically liberal licenses - the stuff powering SaaS tends to be Apache-, MIT or similar licensed. Most of the big SaaS vendors won't touch GPL code, much less AGPL.
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32. kaashi+OJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 05:55:28
>>phkahl+jc
> IMHO the biggest threat to Free Software is the proliferation of open source software.

I'm sure you know this, but to be clear for readers: almost all free software licenses are also open source licenses and vice versa.

The canonical examples are things like the BSD licenses.

See https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLCompatible...

> This is the original BSD license, modified by removal of the advertising clause. It is a lax, permissive non-copyleft free software license, compatible with the GNU GPL.

I think it would be clearer to say that the greatest threat to free software is the proliferation of non-copyleft free software which can be closed down if a company so wishes.

replies(1): >>bad_us+LM1
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33. tsimio+bK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 05:59:56
>>worthl+FI1
The GPL also guarantees the right to redistribute the software and sources you received. This is the part that IBM/RedHat are essentially circumventing, by canceling your access to new patches and versions of RHEL if you chose to exercise this right. This may be legal, but it certainly goes against the intent and spirit of the GPL, as Stallman himself has said.
replies(1): >>worthl+9X1
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34. nradov+CK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 06:04:09
>>sidlls+Us1
In order to build a good email client application, you need more than just software engineers. You need product managers, designers, usability experts, internationalization experts, accessibility experts, tech writers, manual testers, etc. For whatever reason people with those skills tend to be less willing to contribute free labor to FOSS applications than software engineers.
replies(1): >>sidlls+2y2
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35. bad_us+LM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 06:30:42
>>kaashi+OJ1
> the greatest threat to free software is the proliferation of non-copyleft free software which can be closed down if a company so wishes.

That's BS. First of all, companies have closed down GPL projects, because founding companies require copyright assignments on contributions.

Even the FSF does it, with the purpose of being able to change software to newer versions of the GPL, or to be able to sue for copyright infringement. And in the US at least, it's better if one entity is the copyright owner. But the issue remains thay the FSF could turn most of its GNU software proprietary.

The other reason for why it's BS is that it doesn't actually match reality. See LLVM vs GCC.

The biggest danger is companies releasing software with source-available, under proprietary licenses, using the Free Software / Open Source label for marketing purposes, diluting the meaning, which is otherwise well defined.

Like for example MongoDB and Elasticsearch, which grew due to being FOSS, then switched. And the license doesn't matter if the company has the right to switch, given they own the copyright.

I also predict this message will get "But Amazon" replies. Well, that's what FOSS is. Yes, it does grant Amazon the right to make money off your work. If you don't like it, then don't build FOSS, only to pull a bait and switch. FOSS is a terrible business model, because once a project is FOSS, it becomes part of the commons, and that's by design.

replies(2): >>phkahl+CW2 >>kaashi+pJ6
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36. nparaf+6N1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 06:37:09
>>trelan+Ij
Open source supporters were celebrating Google's use of the Linux kernel in Android, hoping that this would promote it's usage. Android is now a Frankenstein spyware monster that uses mostly proprietary software.
replies(1): >>trelan+Rk2
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37. nparaf+mN1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 06:39:40
>>pabs3+Ky1
Supported by redhat is practically on the headline of the page. "Copyright ©2021 Red Hat, Inc." is at the bottom. Redhat nowadays speak mostly about open source and almost never about free software.
replies(1): >>pabs3+DY1
38. emoden+yO1[view] [source] 2023-12-28 06:54:46
>>ptx+(OP)
It's not just scrubbed from the messaging: the actual goals are rather different. Stallman and the FSF were somewhere between indifferent to openly hostile to the goals of businesses while the "open source" wing was very much interested in making money and collaborating with others who wanted to make money.
replies(1): >>joseph+Kw3
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39. emoden+FO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 06:55:41
>>dlltho+3w1
I'd guess this is meant to be a contrast between the GPL and licenses like MIT?
replies(1): >>dlltho+ol7
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40. Hideou+2R1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 07:26:52
>>em-bee+NC
>GPLv4 anyone?

The AGPL?

replies(1): >>em-bee+UI5
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41. m463+dR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 07:29:00
>>phkahl+jc
I think sometimes these terms need to be defined:

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/essays-and-articles.html#free...

I remember rms saying that GPL software places no restrictions on how the software can be USED. It just means that the benefit goes to the users of the software.

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42. worthl+9X1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 08:37:42
>>tsimio+bK1
> The GPL also guarantees the right to redistribute the software and sources you > received

Right, so one receives software 'as a customer', does Red Hat have a requirement to provide you with source code going forward for infinity at no cost ? I don't know what reasonable is here but I do think that there are limits, it turns out that both ALMA and rocky somehow both work around this, I wonder how ?

Btw, I just checked that I can get access to the source of every package with my redhat.com account, however I do have a 'free developer subscription' so maybe that gives me/them access. Looks like there is still ways to access source.

replies(1): >>tsimio+h02
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43. pabs3+DY1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 08:51:25
>>nparaf+mN1
The team probably didn't bother to change those things after they got fired. Notice the latest post and lack of recent activity.
replies(1): >>nparaf+yF4
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44. tsimio+h02[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 09:10:25
>>worthl+9X1
As I said, the letter of the GPL is probably being respected.

But the spirit of the GPL was very much to be able do what old CentOS did: copy the latest version of RHEL that you were given access to and distribute it to others.

Paying RedHat once shouldn't give access to all of the code they will forever release from now on. But, if you want to keep paying, RedHat should keep taking your money and giving you the new code. They should not punish you for exercising your GPL rights by refusing to do business with you.

And Rocky are doing things that very clearly go against RedHat's wishes and will likely be stopped further down the line. They are "exploiting" the fact that RHEL for containers is released publically, not through a developer subscription, and that of course they are forced to give you the source code if they delivered a container to you. I'm fully expecting RedHat to close this "loophole" down.

I believe Alma Linux has taken a different approach and is no longer promising bug-for-bug compatibility with the latest RHEL. They are planning to start maintaining the RHEL code themselves, and take new patches from RedHat's CentOS Stream to try to match RHEL as closely as possible, if I recall correctly.

replies(1): >>growse+Bl5
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45. ric2b+e22[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 09:27:23
>>oooyay+3g
- Thunderbird is probably the best e-mail client around - Blender is one of the best options for 3D rendering - Linux is the best kernel around - Firefox is for many the best browser you can find

There are several examples of OSS being best in class, it's just not the best in every class (yet, at least).

replies(1): >>sidlls+6z2
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46. ric2b+G22[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 09:32:04
>>kazina+Ug
No it doesn't, that's what the AGPL is for.
replies(1): >>kazina+yB3
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47. trelan+Rk2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 12:29:45
>>nparaf+6N1
> Android is now a Frankenstein spyware monster that uses mostly proprietary software.

Which android are you referring to? The table at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_custom_Android_distrib... may help you.

I don't think that, say, Lineage or Calyx share the same privacy concerns as Google's android variant, or the myriad vendors' proprietary forks.

Of course, if most of Android were GPL instead of Apache, the lockin wouldn't be possible.

If you're referring to locked bootloaders and not being able to use the GPL kernel due to that, that was a defect in GPLv2 that was fixed in GPLv3 (that and software patents). TiVo was the one that induced that change, and the term was "tivoization."

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48. sidlls+2y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 14:10:39
>>nradov+CK1
That's a great point, too. Software applications are more than the code in them. All those other folks are required to make an application good. I think the "whatever reason" for these people is the same as for the engineers, though: they gotta pay rent, and working for free doesn't do that.
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49. sidlls+6z2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 14:17:56
>>ric2b+e22
I don't know much about Blender, but the other two, at least, have had substantial contributions by paid engineers (at big, well-known corporations), and likely input from non-engineers (e.g. product staff). They're exceptions to the rule of (F)OSS.
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50. phkahl+CW2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 16:28:40
>>bad_us+LM1
>> But the issue remains thay the FSF could turn most of its GNU software proprietary.

This is a good point. CLAs are bad because they are designed to allow a license change. The only organisation I would be likely to contribute under a CLA is the FSF, but that's mainly because RMS is still there and I know he won't pull the rug.

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51. joseph+Kw3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 19:20:53
>>emoden+yO1
> Stallman and the FSF were somewhere between indifferent to openly hostile to the goals of businesses

How do you figure? They very explicitly permit commercial use and even selling of Free Software.

replies(1): >>emoden+Oe4
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52. kazina+yB3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 19:43:48
>>ric2b+G22
Unfortunately, the Affero changes to the GPL render it a nonfree license.

Free software licenses all have one thing in common: they speak only to redistribution, not to use. To use a free program, you only have to agree to the disclaimer (that if something goes wrong, it is at your own risk).

AGPL prohibits you from running a modified version of the program, if its functionality is publicly accessible, unless you release the modifications. That makes it an EULA.

No free software license requires you to release your modifications if the program is not redistributed.

The problem of siloed saas applications infringing on user freedoms cannot be attacked using copyright, without resorting to non-free licensing, which is an unacceptable.

Note that not everyone agrees that the GPL is a free license, in the first place. Software is maximally free if you can do anything with it you want, including incorporating it into proprietary software.

Many FOSS developers skip copyleft licenses and use MIT, BSD and such, myself included.

I can swallow the idea that GPLed software is free, but AGPL is out of the question.

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53. kapilv+KF3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 20:04:06
>>candid+Le
Field of endeavour is an oss freedom

Armin ronacher, also had some thoughts on this recently, via a license that converts to OSS. https://lucumr.pocoo.org/2023/12/25/life-and-death-of-open-s...

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54. emoden+Oe4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 23:39:07
>>joseph+Kw3
Because when people ask them questions like “but how can my business operate with the strictures placed on them by your extreme vision of software rights?” his response is “too bad.”
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55. nparaf+yF4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-29 04:30:05
>>pabs3+DY1
Red Hat - We make open source technologies for the enterprise: redhat.com webpage title

From wikipedia: Red Hat, Inc. is an American software company that provides open source software products to enterprises

replies(1): >>pabs3+LH4
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56. pabs3+LH4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-29 05:04:08
>>nparaf+yF4
Yes, but they still stopped funding opensource.com.
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57. growse+Bl5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-29 12:57:12
>>tsimio+h02
> They should not punish you for exercising your GPL rights by refusing to do business with you.

Maybe, but the GPL explicitly permits this by only requiring source to be distributed to those who receive the software.

If, instead, the GPL stated that source must be available to everybody when software is distributed to anyone, we maybe wouldn't have this RHEL situation? What would we lose if that were the case?

replies(1): >>tsimio+SI8
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58. em-bee+UI5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-29 15:17:48
>>Hideou+2R1
the agpl does not go far enough. that is being addressed in the article.
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59. kaashi+pJ6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-29 20:16:45
>>bad_us+LM1
I totally agree with you, I was just correcting their phrasing, which didn't really make sense as a statement at all.
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60. dlltho+ol7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-30 01:21:58
>>emoden+FO1
Yeah, definitely. I just think it's worth noting that both organizations approve of basically the same list of licenses, and that even the FSF occasionally recommends using a permissive license depending on circumstance.
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61. tsimio+SI8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-30 18:16:49
>>growse+Bl5
The GPL also explicitly forbids you from imposing any additional restrictions on the rights to redistribute the code you provide.

I think the main reason the requirement to publish the sources is limited to the person who receives the binary is simply practical. For one, there is basically no way to sue as a third party to a contract - even if the contract required you to publish all of your code openly, someone who didn't receive the binary can't really have standing to sue if you just don't publish it. Also, at the time the GPL was created, sending source code carried some measurable cost, so making it public would have been at least mildly expensive.

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