zlacker

[parent] [thread] 106 comments
1. Samoye+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-09-24 13:55:32
The way death row inmates are treated is arguably a reason to be against death row. There was also a case where a person on death row couldn’t present exculpatory evidence to prove his innocence because his last appeals lawyer didn’t do it. The Supreme Court literally decided you can prove you have evidence that proves your innocence, that you were done dirty by an incompetent lawyer, it doesn’t matter, you should still be killed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinn_v._Ramirez

replies(8): >>boombo+u2 >>Spivak+46 >>beeran+Z8 >>qingch+Md >>spamiz+af >>awinte+Gj >>Racing+dB >>slashd+VC
2. boombo+u2[view] [source] 2023-09-24 14:12:55
>>Samoye+(OP)
One of the other death row inmates mentioned in the article as having failed the junk science law, Kosoul Chanthakoummane, was partly convicted for hypnosis induced testimony. The appeal response on calling it junk science was, paraphrased, "hypnosis induced testimony was known to be bogus in ~2005, when your trial was. You should have argued it then."

That alone is terrible. But to make that bullshit even worse, Texas continued to use hypnosis induced testimony until 2021.

It makes me wonder when the last death penalty sentence for "shaken baby syndrome" was in Texas.

replies(1): >>lisper+yn
3. Spivak+46[view] [source] 2023-09-24 14:37:35
>>Samoye+(OP)
It's so frustrating because in the twisted universe where Thomas lives the ruling makes sense. To him justice is an algorithm that produces an outcome and only needs some minimum threshold of "overall the justice system locks up roughly the people we think it ought to" and all the appeals and after-the-fact proving your innocence gets in the way of the efficiency and to him, the effectiveness, of that algorithm.

And the thing is in a different context we celebrate this logic. When we do elections we don't really care about choosing the best candidate. We just go through the process, fight to protect the sanctity of the process because what's actually important is that people accept the outcome even if it makes so sense. Peaceful transfer of power and finality.

replies(3): >>rdedev+s9 >>lozeng+Wa >>LargeT+mi
4. beeran+Z8[view] [source] 2023-09-24 14:54:51
>>Samoye+(OP)
>you can prove you have evidence that proves your innocence,

No. This isn't a case of OJ finding the Real Killers(tm). It wasn't even "new" evidence.

>Ramirez appealed to federal court where his federal public defenders uncovered evidence of intellectual disability and extensive childhood abuse that hadn't been presented at his initial trial.

The ruling only overturned (the 9th circuit precedent) whether the 'default' position of the appeals court should be to accept/consider new arguments not made at trial.

It was not suddenly discovered that the convicted might be intellectually disabled.

Which is itself is still quite the leap from suddenly discovering 'exonerating evidence'.

replies(1): >>lumino+ia
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5. rdedev+s9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 14:58:33
>>Spivak+46
But those two are not the same right ? In elections everyone involved (candidates and voters) have agreed to the system. If they feel the system is not working as such they could always check the results. Sometimes something may pop up and we update the results. This is not the case in the justice system you mentioned above where it's not possible to correct any mistakes after the fact
replies(1): >>Spivak+Xe
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6. lumino+ia[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 15:04:48
>>beeran+Z8
You missed the second part:

>"Jones also appealed to federal court, where federal investigators found evidence suggesting he was innocent. In both cases, ..."

replies(2): >>vGPU+xd >>beeran+kk
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7. lozeng+Wa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 15:10:18
>>Spivak+46
It's called "just"ice, not "systemish". Getting the right outcome is meant to be a core goal of the system. Besides, there are many legal reasonings that would allow the process to give the right answer - that innocent people should not be killed. Thomas chose to find a different reasoning instead.
replies(2): >>jfenge+Qg >>LargeT+on
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8. vGPU+xd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 15:29:57
>>lumino+ia
He was already on parole for a previous violent felony. The police literally arrested him at the scene of the murder where he was half naked and covered in the blood of the victims. He also admitted to having committed statutory rape on the 15 year old that he murdered.

Just about every single person on death row will suddenly claim to have found yet another round of evidence proving innocence when their previous appeal doesn’t work out. It’s a classic delaying tactic, and in this case I agree with the Supreme Court.

replies(1): >>Retric+ek
9. qingch+Md[view] [source] 2023-09-24 15:31:25
>>Samoye+(OP)
Yes, it's often very, very, very hard to introduce new evidence of your innocence after trial. Trial is the point that you show all available evidence to the jury.

In Illinois you can attempt to present your evidence only after you have exhausted all of your regular appeal routes (appellate court, state supreme court, SCOTUS, state habeas corpus, fed habeas -- there are 11 levels here first) which can take a decade. Then you have to petition the court. But you have to do it yourself, you don't get a lawyer to help you at the first stage. So if you have no idea what you're doing (and certainly a prison is going to do whatever they can to impede you in this by restricting your access to any instructions or legal materials), then you just have to suck it up and take the needle.

In fact, I don't think enough emphasis is put on the fact that these people are generally fighting their cases from prison and it is 1000X harder to do from inside than outside. They have no access to a phone directory to try to call anyone. They might not have any money to make calls. The prison might only give them one free letter a week. And then you need an address to write to - where do you get that? A phone call is probably limited to 20 mins, and if you call and the other person misses it, you can't call back to a prison.

And don't get me started on legal materials in prison. If you are lucky enough where you can actually get to a library (all prison law libraries shut during COVID and many have never reopened) you'll rarely see a computer. Often it is just piles of moldy books. And of course the previous person didn't want to risk the chance they would ever get back to the library, so at the very least they have torn out all the pages they need from the book you wanted to read, or worse, have straight up stolen the book.

And we're not taking into account how much energy is required to fight the system and how exhausting it is for an inmate. It is mentally unbelievable to do all this work locked up. You have to do everything on paper with a pencil too at most places. Copying out huge citations and writing huge motions. Then you have to perhaps write them out another 19 times because that's how many copies the court requires by law and you don't have access to a photocopier. Plus everyone around you at the prison is just running buck wild, screaming, shouting, fighting, gambling. It's no fun.

And these lawyers fighting for death row inmates are awesome, amazing, unbelievable people, but there are very, very few of them. And only death row cases get any real traction. The innocent people who are convicted and get life without parole don't get noticed. The innocent people who get 80 years without parole are way down the list, even though it is a de facto life sentence.

I'm helping a guy now who is inside on a life-without-parole case. No lawyer has stepped up to help him out. I'm trying to help him find a lawyer. I've just been helping a guy reconnect to modern life after getting out from a 40 year sentence for a crime he didn't do.

replies(1): >>epicur+Pe
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10. epicur+Pe[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 15:38:32
>>qingch+Md
I'm completely shocked that the "defund the police" movement was where the progressive activists chose to dedicate their attention.

Whereas issues like you mention above, and trial reform in general, and prison system reform in general, would have wide bipartisan support.

It really makes me suspicious why activists and the media are not advocating for the things 90% of people would agree with. Is the other stuff just an intentional distraction so nothing gets fixed?

replies(5): >>jfenge+jg >>morkal+Qk >>anonob+pm >>hexane+sv >>UncleM+fJ
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11. Spivak+Xe[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 15:39:29
>>rdedev+s9
You are saying pretty much the opposite of reality. For elections there is an emphasis on finality and we would never overturn an election years later because of something like I had "an incompetent campaign manager." You can do things like recounts but the process ends shortly after the election and then that's it. But for criminal trials the appeals process is effectively endless, in most cases if there's new evidence that that proves your innocence you can get a new trail or if it's definitive enough just be let out of jail with an "our bad." I think this is good but Thomas wants it to be more like elections where once it's decided it's decided, you go through your punishment and we just accept that sometimes mistakes will be made.
12. spamiz+af[view] [source] 2023-09-24 15:41:10
>>Samoye+(OP)
That's because the purpose of the death penalty is to function as a sort of secular human sacrifice, to ward off evil-doers possibly doing bad things, due to a belief that deep down bad guys are rational actors and will choose not to do commit capital murder based on punishment.
replies(3): >>Fillig+og >>dsego+kh >>chipsa+qF
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13. jfenge+jg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 15:49:15
>>epicur+Pe
The police is where you can get obvious, overwhelming evidence of abuse. It literally takes a man being murdered on video to move the needle, and even then you get a ton of pushback.

There are many prison reform movements, but none of them get any traction without such visceral, concrete, and shocking symbols. You hear about defunding the police because it's the only one with even a shred of a chance to accomplish anything at all.

People might agree with other improvements if a pollster asked them, but only because it's abstract. If they got any serious traction there would be an equivalent objection using the same tactics to defame and harass the people who were trying. And since it doesn't involve a death it will get chalked up to "both sides are bad" and dropped.

I'd love to see politics work on something more coherent and beneficial but we're way, way past that.

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14. Fillig+og[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 15:50:04
>>spamiz+af
Um, no?

It’s to achieve vengeance. This doesn’t seem that complicated.

replies(1): >>j_maff+4i
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15. jfenge+Qg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 15:54:33
>>lozeng+Wa
All nine of them, and practically every lawyer of all persuasions, will tell you that the only justice is the equal application of the written law. And sense of "justice" to mean "fairness" is a job for the legislature.

The fact that legislation is always vague and they can interpret it to mean whatever their ideology wants it to mean is just waiting for more legislation to fix it. If there is an obvious miscarriage of justice, all you need to do is get a majority of the House, 60% of the Senate, and the President to all agree within a two year window. There, justice done.

replies(2): >>BeFlat+BA >>UncleM+LJ
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16. dsego+kh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 15:57:43
>>spamiz+af
It's retributive justice, it's not a deterrent.

To quote a post I recently found resonating with me:

"Look, we don’t necessarily hang murderers to deter other people from committing the same offence. We kill them simply because the punishment has to carry the same weight as the offence. The family of the murderer must go through the same anguish and pain that the murder victim’s family went through. The killer has to be stopped from enjoying all the things that come with being alive. When you kill another person, you deprive them of worldly enjoyments like food, sex, conversations, bathing, laughing, crying and therefore it is only befitting that you too get deprived of same and the only way to do so is through the death sentence. If we are going to shy away from punishing wrong-doers on the basis that the punishment won’t stop other people from committing the same offence then we might as well not send anyone to jail because sending people to jail has never stopped other people from committing the same offences."

https://www.sundaystandard.info/iocom-a-retributionist-i-sup...

replies(10): >>Retric+xi >>i80and+Ji >>Scarbl+dj >>goodpo+Jm >>mcpack+Tn >>cf141q+Oy >>skotob+oz >>throw0+DF >>UncleM+4I >>saghm+PL
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17. j_maff+4i[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:02:41
>>Fillig+og
Yes that's usually the motive behind its supporters but not the used argument when it is criticized.
replies(1): >>JohnBo+1o
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18. LargeT+mi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:04:32
>>Spivak+46
We make the law "algorithmic" because the alternative is a lawless society. Laws have been written down and procedurally followed all over the world for thousands of years. Societies that fail to follow the rules are prone to instability and decay.

I'm not saying it was okay to kill the person. I'm saying we can't throw away laws but your comment continues to advocate for a less "algorithmic" (unambiguous) law. These types of comments are part of why people get radicalized on the internet.

replies(1): >>anon84+vA
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19. Retric+xi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:05:44
>>dsego+kh
Retribution would require mimicry of the original crimes. That’s not what’s going on, it’s simply an attempt to reframe an old argument.

Some cultures actually did do retribution based executions, they where horrific and very different from lethal injection etc.

replies(1): >>standa+Ex
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20. i80and+Ji[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:06:20
>>dsego+kh
I genuinely find this point of view viscerally repulsive. Maybe it's a common perspective, but I pray not. It really seems to be at the heart of a lot of issues with legal systems.
replies(2): >>isleya+CK >>adfgii+wT
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21. Scarbl+dj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:09:13
>>dsego+kh
And that's why it's horrible. The first family is miserable, so in return you make another family miserable as well. Just more misery, not good for anybody.

We consider murderers the lowest of the low, therefore we stoop to the same level. That's the thinking?

In the US, the same people who think government should not have much power, are against taxes, think that abortion is a kind of murder and should be illegal, these people are nevertheless fine with government murdering citizens. I don't get it.

replies(2): >>redwal+1D >>P_I_St+uE2
22. awinte+Gj[view] [source] 2023-09-24 16:12:42
>>Samoye+(OP)
scotus doctrine on capital appeals rapidly converging to 'the sign says abandon hope all ye who enter here and it would violate due process if we didn't tap the sign'
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23. Retric+ek[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:15:36
>>vGPU+xd
The Supreme Court decides what types of arguments can be made, they remand the specifics of individual cases to lower courts. It would have been perfectly fine to say your guilty as hell, but feel free to argue your case indefinitely as there aren’t enough death row inmates to matter.
replies(1): >>beeran+Zk
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24. beeran+kk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:16:10
>>lumino+ia
> found evidence suggesting he was innocent.

No, deciding to (not) call an expert witness to present a different theory (that conflicts with the rest of your defense claims) isn't "found evidence". It's strategy.

It's the same buyers remorse, no-true-scotsman argument. Case lost, therefore ineffective assistance.

The lawyer could have presented a different argument, but didn't. Convicted now wants to make a different argument on appeal.

'That injury shouldn't have killed her that quickly.' isn't new medical evidence. Just an argument not made.

'Also I forgot I saw a boy hit her with a pipe. It must have been that injury. Even though I just claimed the same time frame was impossible if I had hit her.' Isn't new evidence, just a new argument.

This is on top of him not allowing the mom to bring her to the hospital until the next day, after she was already dead. Eta: Oh yea, also on top of the admitted statutory rape stuff.

>where federal investigators found evidence suggesting he was innocent

No, they just decided (with the benefit of hindsight) that they would have used a different defense strategy.

That's not "found evidence suggesting he was innocent."

replies(1): >>lumino+BC
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25. morkal+Qk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:18:49
>>epicur+Pe
Justice reform doesn't really matter to the suspect if he's killed being taken into custody.
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26. beeran+Zk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:20:19
>>Retric+ek
Except a state judge had already given them the option to a retrial (based on ineffective counsel, not "evidence of innocence") before the appeal was made to the federal courts.

They apparently didn't like their chances at retrial, even with "effective counsel".

replies(1): >>Retric+tl
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27. Retric+tl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:24:26
>>beeran+Zk
That’s irrelevant, I expect the both the guilty and innocent to try any argument to get free. Saying you don’t get to make an argument is problematic independent of any specifics because making the argument isn’t winning the argument.
replies(1): >>beeran+to
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28. anonob+pm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:29:43
>>epicur+Pe
> the things 90% of people would agree with

Firstly, 90% dont agree with trial reform. Most conservatives and wealthy "liberals" do not care, but they are not the ones who suffer.

Secondly, "defund the police" helps solves trial reform by reducing the number of people pushed into trial on questionable grounds. Take this for example: >>37431962 -- this type of AI-driven precog system would not be funded if we defunded police departments. That means less people arrested/tried on pseudo-science grounds.

Similarly, less police means the police have to focus on the highest impact issues, rather than trying to go on dragnets and putting angent provaceteurs into the community to literally manufacture criminals.

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29. goodpo+Jm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:31:30
>>dsego+kh
> The family of the murderer must go through the same anguish and pain

How are family members guilty by association? Did they even chose to be somebody's brother, daughter, etc?

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30. LargeT+on[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:35:30
>>lozeng+Wa
No. Human legal systems will never be truly just. They are a reflection of ourselves and we are imperfect. We can only do our best.

In this case the guy got to go all the way to the top court. That's great. That sounds like a good system so far. So at very least it's not rotten to the core. Thomas is unfit and disappointingly partisan, but this appointment came from the executive branch, not the justice system itself. The justice system was set up so the executive branch can check the judiciary. In this case the executive Branch's actions really messed up, but I don't think it's fair to criticize the justice system.

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31. lisper+yn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:36:16
>>boombo+u2
Why? Shaken Baby Syndrome is a real thing.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/shaken-baby-s...

[UPDATE] To those of you downvoting me, would you kindly explain why? It seems like a reasonable question to me.

replies(5): >>beepbo+vo >>beeran+tt >>rossan+iv >>YeGobl+SL2 >>tbugra+NXb
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32. mcpack+Tn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:38:43
>>dsego+kh
Response to the deleted comment: "I genuinely don’t understand this point of view. I get why the victims would want this but why is that a reason for our legal system to adopt it as a guiding principle?"

The pact the government has with people is that the government metes out justice so that people don't try to get it themselves. Some measure of retribution, it doesn't need to be the death penalty, works towards this goal. If people believe the courts will punish a criminal they are less likely to do it themselves, it reduces the risk of vigilante justice. That's a good thing because vigilantes are less discerning about getting the right person and considering extenuating evidence. It's a compromise.

Imagine the government found a way to cure psychopathy with a pill. They catch a serial killer who brutally murdered dozens of people, utterly rehabilitate him with their pill and release him the same day. This might satisfy you and some of the other wise and enlightened commenters in this thread, but many people would not be satisfied with it and people would be more inclined to kill murderers in retribution, since the government no longer punishes them.

replies(1): >>thomas+6n1
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33. JohnBo+1o[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:39:34
>>j_maff+4i
Yeah. People (particularly politicians, in public) are afraid to say that mostly what they want is vengeance.

So they frame it as "deterring others in the future" which sounds sort of noble.

It's like they know the vengeance thing is f--ed up. Why else would they lie?

Perhaps even worse is that the politicians themselves might not even crave vengeance. A lot of the time, they're just pandering to voters who want it.

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34. beeran+to[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:41:58
>>Retric+tl
Of course it's relevant.

"We couldn't simultaneously argue two conflicting theories of defense"...

Isn't quite the same argument when your revealed preference shows you not to believe either theory to stand on its own (or together).

"Your honor, we'd like this conviction thrown out because we couldve/shouldve claimed 'defense option B'." Retrial granted. "No! We don't actually want to retry with 'defense option B'! We just needed a reason to throw out conviction based on 'defense option A'!"

replies(1): >>Retric+5q
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35. beepbo+vo[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:42:13
>>lisper+yn
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/hypnosis/about/p...
replies(1): >>lisper+pr
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36. Retric+5q[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:49:49
>>beeran+to
It’s perfectly reasonable to argue you don’t want to waste time in prison waiting for a trial if you think the evidence is clear enough.

An appeals judge should be able to make that call the same way a trial judge can dismiss charges before trial. That appeals judge can easily say, it’s relevant but not clear enough for me to dismiss the case.

PS: Thus various standards of evidence “beyond reasonable doubt” vs “clear and convincing” vs “preponderance” etc.

replies(1): >>abduhl+8G
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37. lisper+pr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 16:58:33
>>beepbo+vo
Sorry, you're going to have to be a little more explicit here. What does this have to do with shaken baby syndrome?
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38. beeran+tt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 17:10:00
>>lisper+yn
It is, but those claiming psedoscience aren't even claiming that the set of symptoms aren't "real", just that they don't deserve their own label because of the implication.

"We can't explain this trio of internal head/brain/eye trauma with lack of corresponding external trauma, but don't you dare make the reasonable claim that shaking a baby can/does nominally cause the symptoms we see when a baby is, in fact, shaken."

replies(3): >>lisper+Zu >>Yoric+EG >>YeGobl+dx2
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39. lisper+Zu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 17:19:17
>>beeran+tt
Sorry, I am very confused here. The comment I was responding to said:

> to make that bullshit even worse, Texas continued to use hypnosis induced testimony until 2021.

That is a sentiment with which I sympathize. But then...

> It makes me wonder when the last death penalty sentence for "shaken baby syndrome" was in Texas.

This I don't get. Shaken baby syndrome is a real thing, and it seems to me that if someone shakes a baby to death they are guilty of murder (or at least negligent homicide) and should be treated no differently than if their victim had been older. What does it have to do with hypnosis?

replies(2): >>beeran+WE >>Aeolun+GF
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40. rossan+iv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 17:21:03
>>lisper+yn
Shaking and child abuse are obviously real things. However, the way to diagnose shaken baby syndrome has been the subject of an ongoing scientific controversy for decades. With several colleagues, we have just published a textbook about this sensitive issue [1]. I've also written about how I, as a neuroscience researcher and software engineer, came into this diagnosis [2]. Finally, an introduction to this fascinating scientific topic can be found here, with many references for those interested [3].

[1] https://shakenbaby.science

[2] https://www.cambridgeblog.org/2023/05/a-journey-into-the-sha...

[3] https://cyrille.rossant.net/introduction-shaken-baby-syndrom...

replies(3): >>lisper+bA >>YeGobl+3A2 >>sacnor+CHc
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41. hexane+sv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 17:22:05
>>epicur+Pe
The problem with prison reform is politicans are incredibly afraid of being seen as "soft on crime". Paradoxically, this is especially true for democrats, because republicans are assumed to be tough on crime by default. Opposing prison reform is an easy way to seem tough on crime because convicts don't vote and most people aren't familiar with the prison system. Policing is more controversial, because a lot of people have had negative personal experiences with the police, and many are suspicious of government or authoritarianism.
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42. standa+Ex[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 17:34:05
>>Retric+xi
"Retribution would require mimicry of the original crimes."

No, it would not. That's not the definition of retribution.

replies(1): >>Retric+7G
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43. cf141q+Oy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 17:40:18
>>dsego+kh
Its worth mentioning here that many methods of execution are quite sadistic. Shooting or hanging with a sufficient drop are quite a lot more humane then for example the chair. I am hard pressed to see that as a honest mistake.
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44. skotob+oz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 17:44:06
>>dsego+kh
> sending people to jail has never stopped other people from committing the same offences

That's a bold claim. I know people who didn't do illegal stuff because they didn't want repercussion that comes with it. So it is a deterrent.

replies(1): >>dsego+tQ
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45. lisper+bA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 17:48:36
>>rossan+iv
OK, but that still doesn't explain the connection between SBS and hypnosis (and Texas for that matter). Is there a particular history of using hypnosis to convict innocent people of shaking babies to death in Texas and impose the death penalty on them? Is this common knowledge?

The original comment to which I was responding still makes absolutely no sense to me. And getting downvoted because I asked for clarification is making even less sense to me. I must be missing something fundamental here. (Either that or HN has jumped the shark, which I fervently hope is not the case.)

replies(4): >>rossan+LC >>VHRang+7I >>Omni5c+v01 >>stephe+ss9
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46. anon84+vA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 17:49:34
>>LargeT+mi
What? The parent isn't arguing for "less algorithmic laws" or not enforcing laws. They are hypothesizing about the worldview of a supreme court justice who doesn't care about the accuracy of the outcome or what happens in edge cases.

Your sentence about people getting radicalized on the internet is non sequitur and bizarre.

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47. BeFlat+BA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 17:50:32
>>jfenge+Qg
…and you'd only need a simple majority in the Senate if not for silly procedural rules.
48. Racing+dB[view] [source] 2023-09-24 17:54:40
>>Samoye+(OP)
This is the kind of bullshit that makes me against government death penality. If the supreme court can't throw out "administrative procedure" in favor of a "correct ruling", then where does one go next?

Is the only way to get the "correct outcome" a BLM george floyd type protest? It seems like the court system is becoming like getting support from tech companies these days where the only way to get a "normal" level of service/outcome is to start a shitstorm on twitter as the normal support systems doesn't have the approval to make a profit affecting decision.

replies(1): >>kbelde+QZ
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49. lumino+BC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:03:25
>>beeran+kk
I didn't know the details of the case or am a lawyer; it just seemed this was what op was talking about. but looking into it the case seems pretty clear cut.

the death sentence is still a barbaric practice.

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50. rossan+LC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:04:10
>>lisper+bA
I don't know anything about hypnosis, but I think the comment you replied too made an analogy between the contested science of SBS, and the unreliability of hypnosis induced testimonies. There are many other scientific methods in criminal law that have been criticized for their poor reliability, yet many of them are still routinely used in courts.

[1] https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2016/09/20/pcast-r...

[2] https://innocenceproject.org/misapplication-of-forensic-scie...

[3] https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/the-problem-wi...

replies(1): >>lisper+fN
51. slashd+VC[view] [source] 2023-09-24 18:05:12
>>Samoye+(OP)
It would make for a good Monty Python sketch.

That’s really a sad state of affairs.

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52. redwal+1D[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:05:45
>>Scarbl+dj
> In the US, the same people who think government should not have much power, are against taxes, think that abortion is a kind of murder and should be illegal, these people are nevertheless fine with government murdering citizens. I don't get it.

It makes perfect sense if you realize that none of those things are rational positions; they're all opinions people arrived at for emotional reasons, while lacking information or the ability to process it.

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53. beeran+WE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:17:26
>>lisper+Zu
It's all about labels. To discredit and manipulate.

Because 4th/5th amendment issues aside, if an interrogation or testimony via hypnosis is verifiable, who cares if hypnosis is 'real' or 'junk science'?

If a man shakes a baby and that baby dies, who cares if 'SBS' is 'junk science'? It's still murder.

The label shouldn't automatically validate (or invalidate/discredit) the underlying information/ action/ admission.

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54. chipsa+qF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:20:46
>>spamiz+af
The purpose of the justice system is many-fold: One is reform (serve your penance and be better). One is retribution: you did a bad thing, so bad things are going to happen to you. One is deterrence: knowing that you'll get caught, you won't want to spend time in jail, a flip side of retribution. The last is removal: it's hard to commit crimes against innocent people if you're not around innocent people. The death penalty is the ultimate in removal. But it's final. So, you can't fix it if you screwed up in applying it. And that's why I'm against it, generally speaking. Our justice system is not reliable enough to avoid innocents getting ground by the wheels of justice, even at the level of scrutiny of capital punishment. So, excepting things like killed a guy in prison, I can't support it.
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55. throw0+DF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:22:14
>>dsego+kh
> It's retributive justice, it's not a deterrent.

Or it's a form of societal self-defence: there are some folks that will continue to be a menace to society, whether they'll do murder or other bad things, and society wants to eliminate the risk/threat.

If someone comes at you with a knife or gun, you have a right to protect yourself, potentially up to the point of killing the attacker. If someone comes at a group of people (e.g., at a temple, mosque, church), they have a right to protect yourself, potentially up to the point of killing the attacker.

If someone keeps coming at member of society, society has a right to protect itself.

In modern times, with modern prisons, it is much easier to keep these people isolated from society at large, and so the need for the mechanism has been diminished, but the principle is still there.

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56. Aeolun+GF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:22:18
>>lisper+Zu
I think the point is that you don’t get shaken dead babies without visible external trauma.

So saying it’s ‘shaken baby syndrome’ just because there are internal injuries is junk science.

replies(2): >>lisper+QM >>beeran+ZT
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57. Retric+7G[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:24:51
>>standa+Ex
Suggesting any negative consequence was retribution would imply that simply sending someone to prison was also retribution and thus the death penalty was unnecessary.

The argument was one for the proportionality of death for death, but death wasn’t the only harm. That’s an inherent contradiction in the argument being made. You can’t argue an unequal punishment balances the scales here.

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58. abduhl+8G[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:24:52
>>Retric+5q
What is the standard to be used by a court sitting in appeal on issues of fact not presented at trial to a jury of a defendant’s peers when throwing away that jury’s verdict?
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59. Yoric+EG[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:28:23
>>beeran+tt
My understanding is that you got it backwards.

As far as I understand, the claim is that internal head/brain/eye trauma can have many causes, so these symptoms do not automatically mean that the baby was necessarily shaken. Sadly, this combination of symptoms have been named "Shaken Baby Syndrome", which means that people naturally assume that the baby has been shaken, which is apparently a crime in Texas.

Had this same syndrome been named "Guthkelch Syndrome", or anything else, the man currently on death row might have been deemed innocent.

I, for one, find this scary. Just as (in a very different domain) the "movie piracy == slavery" equation I've seen float in Blockbusters many years ago. When people who don't know better start believing in names/PR/..., this can have very real (in this case, deadly) consequences.

replies(1): >>beeran+JT
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60. UncleM+4I[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:35:51
>>dsego+kh
And I think that this is bloodthirsty evil.

Sure, the author wrote why they believe what they do. That's not itself evidence that they are right in their beliefs.

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61. VHRang+7I[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:36:08
>>lisper+bA
You were downvoted because your comment showed you didn't read the OP article, which answers your question thoroughly
replies(1): >>lisper+xM
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62. UncleM+fJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:44:18
>>epicur+Pe
> trial reform in general, and prison system reform in general, would have wide bipartisan support.

They absolutely do not. You can see the split clearly in court decisions regarding the criminal justice system.

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63. UncleM+LJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:47:45
>>jfenge+Qg
And yet, conservatives will happily just make up rules that aren't found anywhere in the written law to allow them to crush people under the justice system. Younger Abstention is an especially egregious example.
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64. isleya+CK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:53:32
>>i80and+Ji
I'm still shocked when people suggest making people get punished for crimes committed by members of their family. It's indefensible and absurd.
replies(1): >>holler+gL
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65. holler+gL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 18:56:59
>>isleya+CK
Are any of the people suggesting that American?

That would surprise me!

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66. saghm+PL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 19:00:44
>>dsego+kh
> The family of the murderer must go through the same anguish and pain that the murder victim’s family went through.

I don't understand why this "must" be the way things are done; it seems way more of a stretch to argue this than to say that if the family of the murderer is innocent, choosing a punishment specifically based on wanting to make them suffer seems pretty messed up. I don't think claiming that innocent people who happen to be related to criminals should be forced to suffer is a universal premise; if you're going to claim it, you're going to need to back it up with an argument about why that's somehow more reasonable than "we shouldn't go out of our way specifically to punish innocent people".

> If we are going to shy away from punishing wrong-doers on the basis that the punishment won’t stop other people from committing the same offence then we might as well not send anyone to jail because sending people to jail has never stopped other people from committing the same offences.

If your goal is a 1:1 justice system where the guilty party suffers the exact same punishment that their victim suffered through their crime, doesn't that also imply that imprisonment should basically only ever be used as a punishment for kidnapping/holding people hostage? Do you punish a drug dealer by forcing them to buy drugs from the victim, or a fraud doctor to get care only from people without medical degrees? It's virtually impossible to try to define punishments like this in general, so I don't find it compelling that it's somehow the obvious way to punish murder.

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67. lisper+xM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 19:04:39
>>VHRang+7I
But it doesn't. It makes the unsubstantiated claim that shaken baby syndrome is junk science. It isn't. It's a real thing, at least according to the Mayo Clinic, which I consider more trustworthy on this topic than The Guardian.

It may well be that the evidence for SBS in this particular case was bogus, but it does not follow that SBS is bogus in general.

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68. lisper+QM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 19:06:05
>>Aeolun+GF
> you don’t get shaken dead babies without visible external trauma.

According to the Mayo Clinic you can:

"While sometimes there's bruising on the face, you may not see signs of physical injury to the child's outer body."

replies(1): >>coldte+xT
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69. lisper+fN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 19:08:50
>>rossan+LC
Sure, I don't disagree with any of that. But contrary to the claim made in TFA, SBS is not junk science, at least not if you consider the Mayo Clinic to be a reliable source. It's a real thing. What constitutes sufficient evidence to convict someone of it is a different question. You can't just dismiss a claim of SBS a priori as "junk science".
replies(1): >>rossan+IR
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70. dsego+tQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 19:33:05
>>skotob+oz
Why is it bold? Prisons are full yet we haven't eradicated crime, lots of people doing illegal stuff.
replies(1): >>skotob+IH1
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71. rossan+IR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 19:41:56
>>lisper+fN
"Junk science" doesn't really capture the nuance associated with this diagnosis.

Although SBS is a highly disputed and contested diagnosis, most medical authorities (Mayo Clinic, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the CDC...) do not recognize any legitimate controversy associated with it. The most notable exception is the Swedish Agency for Health Technology Assessment and Assessment of Social Services which published a systematic review in 2016 criticizing the scientific reliability of SBS diagnoses made on the so-called "triad" of subdural hematoma, retinal hemorrhage, and encephalopathy [1]. This report itself generated intense debates.

The difficulty here is that definitions are generally vague and change over time. What does "shaken baby syndrome" mean? An abusive gesture, a medical theory, something else? That alone is unclear.

What is being really contested is the idea that you can reliably infer shaking whenever you observe this "triad" of findings in an infant with no history of major trauma, and no other evidence of trauma (no bruises, no fractures, no neck injury...). This idea was universally accepted between the 1980s and the 2000s. But the science has shifted, to such a point that medical authorities no longer officially support this theory — however, diagnoses are still being made by inertia of clinical practice and criminal justice. Yet, authorities still claim there is no controversy on the existence and severity of abusive head injuries, which isn't really the point. More on this issue here [2] and in this paper [3].

[1] https://www.sbu.se/en/publications/sbu-assesses/traumatic-sh...

[2] https://cyrille.rossant.net/introduction-shaken-baby-syndrom...

[3] https://wlr.law.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/1263/2020/...

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72. adfgii+wT[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 19:57:35
>>i80and+Ji
Most people, moral or not, would never kill. Most people rarely feel a desire to kill, and most people know they would feel guilty for killing someone. A person's feelings will keep them in line even if their character won't. The police add an extra incentive.

But executions change all that. Whether or not a person supports capital punishment reveals if their morality is a flimsy thing of feelings and self-interest or a thing of principle. It is safe for someone to hate a heinous criminal and wish them ill. There's little fear of guilty feelings or reprisal. The average person will give in, baying for blood purely because they want to see the hated person suffer. A good person will refuse to hurt others no matter how badly they want to.

Capital punishment is a good litmus test. It reveals those who are murderers deep down inside.

replies(2): >>dsego+aW >>thomas+Cm1
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73. coldte+xT[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 19:57:36
>>lisper+QM
Mayo Clinic's info is just a popular science article, with very high level information and suggestions.

It doesn't get into the nuance, nor is intended as a validation for facile forensic based witch-hunting.

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74. beeran+JT[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 19:59:50
>>Yoric+EG
>internal head/brain/eye trauma can have many causes

But almost all have corresponding external trauma.

The cases that don't have matching external trauma narrow it down considerably.

Restrained in a car seat in a rollover wreck? Maybe.

Rolled out of her bed? Not really plausible. But might seem like a good excuse for someone looking to cover up abuse.

Sort of agree with it being scary that a diagnosis implies a crime, but this is a case where the girl died from bad parenting, whether you call it SBS or not.

Hell, even his excuses are giving a 2-year old too many opiates and letting her sleep somewhere she could fall from while sick. Plus lying about the pneumonia, which wasn't present on autopsy.

replies(2): >>Yoric+J41 >>YeGobl+2y2
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75. beeran+ZT[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 20:02:28
>>Aeolun+GF
Actually opposite.

Many forms of trauma can cause these injuries (especially 'trio'), but alone and without matching external trauma, shaking becomes the most likely cause.

Which isn't to say that shaking couldn't also cause some external trauma.

replies(1): >>Aeolun+fk1
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76. dsego+aW[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 20:20:37
>>adfgii+wT
> A good person will refuse to hurt others no matter how badly they want to.

Does this include or exclude killing in self defense? Would a good person allow themselves to be killed rather than harming the attacker? Imagine that the assailant would be rehabilitated after serving 10-15 years for your murder and live a productive life with family and kids, does that change the equation? Is absolutist pacifism the end goal or is there an arbitrary line you are willing to draw?

replies(1): >>adfgii+gY
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77. adfgii+gY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 20:33:38
>>dsego+aW
No, no, no, and no. In all of those cases the killing is justified by more than just bloodlust. I am not a pacifist and never have been.

Executions are different. People are not afraid to admit that they support executions because they like knowing that hated people will suffer. That is not something I will consider acceptable under any circumstances. If there were any evidence that capital punishment served a purpose beyond feeling good I might change my tune. But there isn't, so I won't.

You yourself admitted executions serve no practical purpose, so your self-defense hypotheticals are irrelevant.

replies(1): >>dfadsa+0k1
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78. kbelde+QZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 20:43:34
>>Racing+dB
But following proper administrative procedure is a key component of a fair justice system. It's not all that's necessary, but it is necessary, otherwise you have rules being bent on whims of justices, prosecutors, or public sentiment.
replies(1): >>Racing+s51
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79. Omni5c+v01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 20:47:12
>>lisper+bA
AFAICT The Junk Science at play here is not that SBS doesn't exist, but that the triad of symptoms is enough to definitively prove SBS.

The reference to Texas is because the subject of the article is a particular case in Texas (with references to other laws/cases in Texas like the "junk science writ" and Kosoul Chanthakoummane whose case had nothing to do with SBS). The reference to hypnosis is sort of orthogonal to SBS, it's used as another example of junk science in the article.

This section of the article is probably the most relevant:

Paradoxically, Texas is a leader in countering junk science. In 2013, the state introduced a first-in-the-nation “junk science writ” that allowed prisoners – especially those on death row – to challenge sentences on grounds of misused forensic science. It was under this law that in 2016 Sween saved Roberson from imminent death by securing a stay of execution four days before his scheduled lethal injection.

But the hope generated by the new junk science law in Texas has proven a chimera. There have been about 70 attempts by death row inmates to utilize the law and of those the number that have obtained relief is zero.

Kosoul Chanthakoummane was one of those who appealed through the junk science law. He had been put on death row on the back of three different types of junk science: hypnosis of a witness to obtain identification, bitemark analysis and a discredited form of DNA testimony.

In August 2022, Texas executed him anyway.

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80. Yoric+J41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 21:18:03
>>beeran+JT
Well, I have neither the medical knowledge nor any kind of deep understanding of this case necessary to pursue this conversation, so I'll bow out.

Thanks for the details!

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81. Racing+s51[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 21:23:09
>>kbelde+QZ
Yeah, i guess a governor's pardon is the systematic solution for a case like this (if he is indeed innocent).
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82. dfadsa+0k1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 23:45:37
>>adfgii+gY
Recidivism rate is high so People who commit murded will likely commit other crimes if released so removing them from society is a good thing. Keeping them in jail forever is a waste of resources so execution is right approach. The one thing is that process should not take 20 years and all appeals should run out in a year or two at most so justice is reasonably swift.

We should not torture them on purpose but besides that I do not particularly care if they suffer or not during execution.

replies(1): >>adfgii+nC1
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83. Aeolun+fk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-24 23:48:52
>>beeran+ZT
Isn’t the whole premise of the original article that the thing has been proven to be junk?

Just the fact it’s on mayoclinic doesn’t mean all that much.

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84. thomas+Cm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 00:15:06
>>adfgii+wT
The confounding variable in your test is this: people may simply be detached from the argument.

As bad as that may be, it isn't a sign of violent intentions.

replies(1): >>adfgii+PD1
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85. thomas+6n1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 00:22:08
>>mcpack+Tn
A responsible government would punish the vigilantes instead of the innocent or rehabilitated.
replies(1): >>dsego+Z92
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86. adfgii+nC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 03:24:16
>>dfadsa+0k1
Execution is vastly more expensive than keeping people locked up. This is well documented. Shortening the appeals process enough to make it cheaper than prison would be radically authoritarian and would result in even more innocent people being executed.
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87. adfgii+PD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 03:41:27
>>thomas+Cm1
I don't quite understand what you're saying.

There are a lot of people who aren't shy about supporting the death penalty simply because they want suffering and death. There are others who don't care what's happening in the world, give in to peer pressure, or honestly believe executions have practical value. Those aren't the same problem as simply cruelty.

replies(1): >>dsego+r02
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88. skotob+IH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 04:35:58
>>dsego+tQ
Because it's not about stopping all people from committing crimes. It's about stopping enough of them so society doesn't collapse. And it works.
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89. dsego+r02[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 08:20:46
>>adfgii+PD1
It's not cruelty, it's a service to society and the victims.
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90. dsego+Z92[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 09:57:14
>>thomas+6n1
I always wonder how moral and fair it is to provide an opportunity for rehabilitation to someone guilty of a heinous crime, since they didn't provide a second chance to their victims. It seem like a great cosmic injustice. As for punishing vigilantes, should settling the score be more severely punished than the original crime? Let's say a person kills someone I love, and I take my revenge by killing them, am I now not worthy of rehabilitation?
replies(1): >>thomas+KA4
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91. YeGobl+dx2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 12:49:51
>>beeran+tt
That's not how it goes. Shaking was proposed as an explanation for the triad, not observed as the cause. Then the syndrome was named after the proposed explanation and used as a justification to assume shaking whenever the triad was observed. The Guardian article makes this timeline clear.

Moreover, the Syndrome was used to justify suspicion of deliberate harm in cases where the triad was not observed at all, as I think in Roberson's case, if you read between the lines - no article about the case mentions the triad, only generic injuries that could, allegedly, only be caused by shaking.

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92. YeGobl+2y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 12:53:30
>>beeran+JT
>> But might seem like a good excuse for someone looking to cover up abuse.

You have absolutely no way to place any certainty on this "might" at all.

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93. YeGobl+3A2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 13:01:39
>>rossan+iv
Hey, can you please post your cambridgeblog.com article on HN?

As you say in your article, there must be hundreds, if not thousands of people in jail for having shaken their babies to death. I can't imagine any harm more horrible that our society can perpetrate than punishing someone for the death of their loved ones when they had nothing to do with it. To think that this is done systematically is inconsolable, insufferable to contemplate.

replies(1): >>rossan+Ey4
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94. P_I_St+uE2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 13:22:53
>>Scarbl+dj
Doesn't have to be miserable, in theory, if it's used for serious murders with sexual/aggravating components; it doesn't have to hurt the other family.

What hurt them is the behavior. You really going to feel good about your brother senselessly murdering three people, because "at least he's alive".

The notion of standing behind loved ones, no matter what, is not universal.

replies(1): >>Scarbl+hG3
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95. YeGobl+SL2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 13:52:05
>>lisper+yn
lisper, it sounds like the only source you've consulted on Shaken Baby Syndrome (SBS) is the Mayo Clinic website. SBS is a subject with a very long history and surrounded by great controversy [1]. I urge you to look a bit further and make an effort to understand why there is controversy.

For example, the Wikipedia article on SBS has a section on "Legal Issues" that gives some details. Or you may find informative Wikipedia's article about Waney Squier, a doctor who was involved in SBS cases as an expert witness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waney_Squier

The "Legal Issues" section on the SBS also mentions Waney Squire's case.

____________________

[1] Btw, this is a "controversy" in the sense of often acrimonious debate between experts and not in the sense of the "controversy" that Young Earth Creationists demand be taught in schools. It's a controversy about methodology and medical and science ethics; the kind of thing that gets up some scientists' noses.

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96. Scarbl+hG3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 17:14:32
>>P_I_St+uE2
The comment I replied to said: "The family of the murderer must go through the same anguish and pain that the murder victim’s family went through".

So that's the explicit goal.

replies(1): >>P_I_St+He5
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97. rossan+Ey4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 21:10:01
>>YeGobl+3A2
Sure, done: >>37650402

I totally agree. This is insufferable.

This is not just a virtual, academic subject to me. I've cofounded an association of French families [1] that has been contacted by 1300+ people in the past 8 years or so. I see parents losing their baby to foster care for 6, 12, 24 months or more. To say they are broken for life is an understatement. I see fathers, mothers, nannies maintain their innocence for years until they are convicted to 5 to 15 years of jail, because medical experts have certified that no other explanation than shaking could have ever caused the child's findings. Three more people I know have been convicted in the past couple of weeks. I feel so absolutely desperate and hopeless seeing people going to jail one after the other, week after week, while I can't do anything about it. All cases are not illegitimate, of course, but there are serious reasons to be doubtful when there is no external evidence of trauma, strong and sustained denials, and no antecedent of abuse.

For sure, we have tried to alert medical authorities, doctors, politicians, institutions, judges, celebrities, scientists, journalists for years, and almost no one actually cares, while those who do will do everything in their power to cancel and suppress us (Waney Squier is one among many other examples, Chapter 1 of our Cambridge book provides more examples). I see no other example in our modern history of an active, systematic endeavor that has been so destructive to so many people for so long.

[1] https://adikia.fr/

replies(2): >>YeGobl+QB8 >>sacnor+gIc
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98. thomas+KA4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-25 21:19:42
>>dsego+Z92
fair ≠ moral
replies(1): >>dsego+cra
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99. P_I_St+He5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-26 01:48:03
>>Scarbl+hG3
Yeah, the listed it among many things, and I agree that's messed up, but honestly only that part in a really visceral way.

I wonder if they were really focusing on the family needing to be punished, vs. the murderer knowing what they've done to their family. In such a case, you could argue that it does not and should not hurt the family any more (or not much).

You don't have to stand by family, and can feel very little different about their receiving justice; perhaps a bit worse, since you don't know what else they could do before being laid to rest.

I thought this was getting dismissed too quickly, but I forgot how directly this was said. Yes, if you literally want to hurt their families, that's just insanity; lashing out at people who had nothing to do with it...

... although there's a really interesting argument that you're always doing this when you punish someone.

replies(1): >>Scarbl+BT6
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100. Scarbl+BT6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-26 14:14:32
>>P_I_St+He5
> ... although there's a really interesting argument that you're always doing this when you punish someone.

It's the intention that matters.

Punishments have several functions -- to work as deterrent, to keep society safe from the perpetrator, to change them so that they won't repeat their crime in the future, to compensate the victims if possible, and also pure retribution, to let people feel "they got what they deserved."

To me, that last one is the least important, and "tooth for a tooth" makes the punisher guilty of the same crime as the perpetrator.

replies(1): >>P_I_St+Mh8
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101. P_I_St+Mh8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-26 19:56:22
>>Scarbl+BT6
> It's the intention that matters... to work as deterrent, to change them so that they won't repeat their crime in the future...to let people feel "they got what they deserved."

When I said "punishment" I meant the purely revenge version. I was basically working from that assumption, and this is what we'd been previously discussing.

So, I was purely speaking from a harm perspective. The argument is that it makes no sense to try to harm anyone, for any action, no matter how evil.

Without "free will" this is a violent act of senseless aggression against the innocent. Interestingly, if it's an animal we think it probably doesn't have "free will", however we accept this as a reason IN FAVOR of disregarding their rights (eg. the killer bear doesn't think and feel like us, just shoot it).

With modern sensibilities, you shouldn't hurt people unless they do something under their own "free will"; but this is never true, if we don't have "free will" to begin with.

So if an animal kills we use their lack of free will as a reason to kill them, but if a person doesn't have free will, then that's a reason they should be spared; doesn't this just seem like we've created another spiritual concept, to shape based on our cultural values.

P.S. Even arguing the inverse case, it's tempting to use lack of free will as a justification for leniency; at the same time you'll be very quick to use some form of it as a reason in favor of the sanctity of life.

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102. YeGobl+QB8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-26 21:50:39
>>rossan+Ey4
>> Sure, done: >>37650402

Thanks! Although I just saw it and didn't have the chance to upvote it when it was posted. Let's hope it gets on the second chance queue. It's a good article, well written and level-headed.

>> This is not just a virtual, academic subject to me.

I can tell. Thank you for your indefatigable advocacy.

I read about Shaken Baby Syndrome some time ago and since then I've kept bookmarks of cases I see in the news that seem to be false convictions. I remember one in particular of a British man who was accused of having murdered his baby daughter by shaking. The case has stuck in my mind because the press reported how a Playstation was found on the living room table and the prosecution alleged that the daughter's crying had disturbed the father's playing, and so he had shaken her so he could continue playing. I could not believe that such a far-fetched conjecture, virtually impossible to falsify, would be accepted by judges and juries and thought that for the prosecution to be grasping for straws like that they must really have nothing concrete to go on, but the father was put in jail nonetheless. I don't have my bookmarks at hand now so I can't look up his name.

I suspect that when legal and medical experts claim that SBS cases don't only take the evidence of the triad into account, that's the kind of "evidence" that they mean they also consider: just-so stories that stop only short of calling the family pet as a witness.

Edit: I just realised - your association is called "adikia". "Injustice" in my native language, Greek.

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103. stephe+ss9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 03:14:06
>>lisper+bA
There’s no specific link between SBS and hypnosis except for this particular case.

The problem is: 1. The science seems to point towards ‘Shaken Baby Syndrome’ being able to be caused by several different things, including ones that don’t even involve physical trauma, so physical shaking is only one cause amongst many whereas most doctors and the justice system still mostly confidentially assert it’s always from shaking. Saying SBS is always a result of shaking is junk science.

2. Hypnosis is a way to extract confessions, but it’s probably extremely likely to extract false confessions. Hence why it’s generally disallowed, because it’s pseudoscience.

3. The particular case involving (1) assuming SBS is always from shaking and (2) a false confession from hypnosis happened in Texas.

So that’s the link.

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104. dsego+cra[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 11:46:03
>>thomas+KA4
Depends on your moral framework I would guess, morality isn't absolute.
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105. tbugra+NXb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 18:35:50
>>lisper+yn
For the love of god, read the damn article before commenting.
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106. sacnor+CHc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 22:02:08
>>rossan+iv
Good references. The total gamut of child abuse doesn't necessarily leave any physical or medical evidence, and much of it isn't technically illegal. It's been my experience that there is widespread hesitancy on the part of educators and medical professionals to report borderline or even clear-cut abuse.
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107. sacnor+gIc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 22:05:35
>>rossan+Ey4
That sounds like a Kafkaesque, dystopian situation of readily tearing families apart, lack of due process, and guilt until proven innocence.

I would recommend contacting ProPublica and TheGuardian to raise awareness.

Edit: My cousin is similar to a nurse at an adolescent lockdown facility in N. Texas for serious mental healthcare and physical safety needs that no parent could reasonably hope to provide. The standard is so high and the beds so few, the kids in the facility are the most desperate cases and pretrial diversions that would otherwise go unaddressed in carceral situations. It takes a special, brave, and trained caregiver to meet the needs that medication, godly patience and tolerance, and love alone cannot provide.

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