zlacker

[parent] [thread] 85 comments
1. tmpz22+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-01 23:39:52
Can we please recognize that this is a holiday weekend and Elon rammed a big release forcing his engineers to come in and iterate multiple patches over the last 12 hours.
replies(7): >>truemo+J3 >>paxys+Ya >>nashas+zi >>TheHap+Zj >>TX81Z+4t >>croes+hU >>bernie+Hk1
2. truemo+J3[view] [source] 2023-07-02 00:10:50
>>tmpz22+(OP)
extremely recognized.
replies(1): >>EGreg+f8
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3. EGreg+f8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 00:53:14
>>truemo+J3
recognized even more
4. paxys+Ya[view] [source] 2023-07-02 01:13:56
>>tmpz22+(OP)
Twitter Engineers have had over a year to get out and find another job. At this point the terms of their employment and the expectations from their boss are all crystal clear. Hard to sympathize with those who continue to stick around for whatever reason.
replies(7): >>buitre+ub >>barbaz+Xe >>nashas+hi >>joe__f+4w >>badreq+Jz >>Johnny+1A >>little+xK
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5. buitre+ub[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:19:48
>>paxys+Ya
In this job market, it's hard. And many engineers are on H1B visas so it's even harder to jump ship.
replies(2): >>paxys+6c >>jonono+EZ
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6. paxys+6c[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:26:27
>>buitre+ub
If they truly cannot get another job despite trying hard for 15 months then really they should be thanking Musk for giving them a steady paycheck when no one else in the industry will.
replies(3): >>Wingy+vc >>tivert+2s >>shippi+e84
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7. Wingy+vc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:31:45
>>paxys+6c
If I understand correctly, the U.S. doesn’t allow them to get another job without getting a new H-1B and there are dramatically more applicants than visas each year. They are unlikely to get a new one so their options are to either stay at Twitter or leave the U.S.
replies(3): >>paxys+Ac >>kumarm+nd >>wil421+Vl
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8. paxys+Ac[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:32:53
>>Wingy+vc
You understand wrong. If you already have an H-1B visa then you don't need to enter the lottery again. You just need another job offer in a similar role, and can start working immediately.
replies(4): >>window+7d >>odux+Pf >>tivert+Mr >>yafbum+Ur
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9. window+7d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:40:11
>>paxys+Ac
Can you provide a source on this? It sounds like you know what you're talking about, but this is the internet and I'm not in a position to tell if you're mistaken or not.
replies(2): >>paxys+id >>Perihe+Bd
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10. paxys+id[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:41:33
>>window+7d
Just google H1B visa transfer. All of this is (or at least should be) pretty common knowledge in the tech world.
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11. kumarm+nd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:42:15
>>Wingy+vc
You got it wrong. There is a process called H1B Transfer. Employers file for transfer to their company once they make an offer.

https://visaguide.world/us-visa/nonimmigrant/employment/h1b/...

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12. Perihe+Bd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:43:53
>>window+7d
This is just an h1b transfer. No lottery needed. Not as easy as having a green card, but still an order of magnitude easier than doing the h1b lottery. https://www.upcounsel.com/h1b-visa-transfer#:~:text=Yes%2C%2....
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13. barbaz+Xe[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:58:09
>>paxys+Ya
Without knowing much about the people I opt to approach this with a bit more empathy. Things are shitty for lots of people. Now is not the time to judge people.
replies(1): >>paxys+af
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14. paxys+af[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 02:01:27
>>barbaz+Xe
Why assume anything at all about them? Maybe they believe in the product they are building and don't mind putting in the extra work?
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15. odux+Pf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 02:09:57
>>paxys+Ac
What you said is true - a new lottery is not needed. However before offering a job to a H1B candidate the company should demonstrate that it advertised this job to the general public and no non H1B candidate (a US citizen or permanent resident) applied or was eligible. In the current job market, there are tons of citizens and permanent residents in the job market making it difficult if not impossible for a H1B holder to get a new job.
replies(1): >>Michae+Zh
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16. Michae+Zh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 02:33:43
>>odux+Pf
The original purpose of the H1B system was exactly for those rare individuals that have some X skill(s) that can't be met by the domestic job market. The implication being that practically zero entry to intermediate level jobs would have H1Bs filling them, even in SV.

Though the expected norm nowadays is for it to be a cheaper second-rate labour supply restricted by years long waiting lists and lotteries, and not a smooth pipeline of geniuses and super-geniuses interested in emigrating to the US,

replies(1): >>j16sdi+zz
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17. nashas+hi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 02:36:13
>>paxys+Ya
The activist mindset is not part of professionalism. If people chose to stick with their jobs, it is their professionalism. And if people chose not to leave, it is a sacrifice they made.

Any professional worth his salt would do the same.

18. nashas+zi[view] [source] 2023-07-02 02:39:50
>>tmpz22+(OP)
The arrogance of the guy is so huge, hubris does not touch him. Thoughts are with the programmers.

What I’m more surprised about is how gum and shoestring the twitter engineering is now a days. They put in no emphasis on doing deep divides into the code base and instead opt to do the simplest shortest fix. And it causes problems.

replies(2): >>starbu+SA >>bart_s+WX5
19. TheHap+Zj[view] [source] 2023-07-02 02:52:29
>>tmpz22+(OP)
What holiday is it?
replies(2): >>voganm+uk >>easton+9l
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20. voganm+uk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 02:57:45
>>TheHap+Zj
Is this really easier than consulting a calendar?

Its the weekend before the 4th of July, the independence day for USA - many employers give employees Monday and Tuesday off, creating a potential four day break during what is typically very good weather - that being said Twitter is presumably (still) an international company with people in all different holiday areas.

replies(3): >>TheHap+uo >>joeyth+Cq1 >>taskfo+hq8
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21. easton+9l[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 03:03:18
>>TheHap+Zj
4th of July (America’s birthday). Which is actually Tuesday, but many people are taking Monday off too.
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22. wil421+Vl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 03:10:50
>>Wingy+vc
You could’ve googled about H-1B before commenting.
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23. TheHap+uo[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 03:42:25
>>voganm+uk
I searched "what holiday is it this weekend" on kagi and found nothing. I don't know what country GP is in and I haven't heard about any public holidays this weekend.

The "America is the default" is tiring. The US makes up ~ 5% of the population, and most of us do not default to American thinking.

replies(5): >>woodso+Fr >>boc+Yr >>badreq+Uz >>yibg+cD >>bart_s+q06
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24. woodso+Fr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 04:25:44
>>TheHap+uo
I generally agree with your sentiment, but Twitter is a US company with most of their employees residing in the US (at least presumably?). So in this case it’s reasonable to assume they meant it’s a holiday in the US.
replies(2): >>bombol+Cc1 >>joeyth+Fq1
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25. tivert+Mr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 04:26:41
>>paxys+Ac
> You understand wrong. If you already have an H-1B visa then you don't need to enter the lottery again. You just need another job offer in a similar role, and can start working immediately.

The other employer still needs to be willing to sponsor you, and that's often not the case.

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26. yafbum+Ur[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 04:27:56
>>paxys+Ac
> don't need to enter the lottery again

Yes

> can start working immediately

Abso-lutely not. Check out Reddit to look for accounts of how the transfer works and see how easy it really is...

When you transfer, you need a lot of cooperation from the new firm as they have to be ok filing paperwork, they have to do it in a timely fashion, and due to processing delays on the order of weeks (if all goes well) you cannot start work immediately. For many, many employers, this puts you at a strong disadvantage against applicants who are all good to go and ready to show up for work on Monday.

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27. boc+Yr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 04:29:47
>>TheHap+uo
You’re on the English-speaking internet when the only other countries awake are Canada and Australia/NZ.

You’re in an America conversation thread, whether you like it or not.

replies(2): >>defros+ms >>joeyth+Qq1
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28. tivert+2s[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 04:30:46
>>paxys+6c
> If they truly cannot get another job despite trying hard for 15 months then really they should be thanking Musk for giving them a steady paycheck when no one else in the industry will.

That's an asshole take.

Everything I've read is that Twitter is working its remaining engineers to the bone. Job searches can be extremely draining, and I can imagine many Twitter engineers don't have the energy remaining. Add to that mix visa and immigration issues, and I could totally see people getting trapped there.

replies(2): >>ceroxy+Ws >>throwa+dG
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29. defros+ms[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 04:36:19
>>boc+Yr
Pretty sure Singapore, Indonesia, Korea, etc are both awake and home to large numbers of English speaking (even if only ESL) IT professionals.
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30. ceroxy+Ws[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 04:43:43
>>tivert+2s
The "golden handcuffs", I know many people in this position and have been in it myself.
31. TX81Z+4t[view] [source] 2023-07-02 04:45:28
>>tmpz22+(OP)
But at least they got to deploy directly to prod.
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32. joe__f+4w[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 05:22:12
>>paxys+Ya
You are telling people who are being abused that it's their fault that they didn't leave. This is victim blaming.
replies(2): >>edanm+Uw >>paxys+6u1
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33. edanm+Uw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 05:34:23
>>joe__f+4w
Are you really considering a tough work environment at a high tech company to be abuse? At company that little voluntarily choose to be employed at?

Do you know what conditions are like in most jobs?

replies(2): >>bombol+fU >>o1y32+S41
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34. j16sdi+zz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 06:05:13
>>Michae+Zh
What you said is correct from the policy/public perspective.

This thread is talking about, from employee's perspective, it is hard to jump ship.

replies(1): >>Michae+0p1
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35. badreq+Jz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 06:06:45
>>paxys+Ya
Sounds like you live in a bubble where nobody needs immigration sponsorship.
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36. badreq+Uz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 06:08:52
>>TheHap+uo
seems like a great reason not to use Kagi
replies(1): >>IIsi50+ti9
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37. Johnny+1A[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 06:09:57
>>paxys+Ya
Someone pointed out that it looks like most of the workers that stayed at Twitter appear to be foreign born and are probably reliant on Twitter's sponsorship of their H1-B visa.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7z5px/twitter-employees-on-...

replies(2): >>voytec+SL >>paxys+Aa1
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38. starbu+SA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 06:19:02
>>nashas+zi
Applying the simplest shortest fix can sometimes be a good method to synchronize the state of the code with management.

Instead of engineering trying to buffer and fix weird management decisions, this just exposes them.

replies(1): >>bileka+5P
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39. yibg+cD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 06:45:40
>>TheHap+uo
Maybe because Twitter is a US company with headquarters in San Francisco?
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40. throwa+dG[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 07:21:38
>>tivert+2s
Devs should be thankful not to Musk but to previous management who sponsored them visas.

This is what I think happened:

- few companies are willing to go through paperwork to sponsor visas. Old Twitter was, Musk Twitter probably isn't

- Musk inherited a bunch of visa-sponsored devs from old Twitter, and they will have trouble finding a new h1b sponsor to transfer

- those are the devs that cannot negotiate better salaries or leave easily

Basically Musk's Twitter's lights are on thanks to those employees. And whether they are good or not doesn't matter, they can't leave either way, job market is hostile

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41. little+xK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 08:08:47
>>paxys+Ya
Looking for a new job requires time and energy (especially at the moment) and these are scarce resources when you've been un constant crunch for the past 9 months…
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42. voytec+SL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 08:22:30
>>Johnny+1A
Can sponsored H1-B visa holders look for another sponsorship to try to switch jobs, or would they get deported after resigning from "hardcore Twitter"?
replies(3): >>bileka+dQ >>manque+mR >>paxys+Ea1
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43. bileka+5P[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 08:57:57
>>starbu+SA
From experience management really don't care about the state of the code or infrastructure. All they want to know is the soonest something can be done.

Elon strikes me as worse because he likes to think he understands what his engineers know.

replies(2): >>bborud+O51 >>starbu+742
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44. bileka+dQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 09:12:36
>>voytec+SL
They would need to go through the process again of a new visa with the new potential employer. It's a real pain.

I would imagine a lot of the H1 b visa holders are there just to let their visa run out while making some money.

Anyway it doesn't matter. This isn't and engineer problem. It's a management problem. The management is the definition of incompetent.

replies(2): >>voytec+KS >>croes+oU
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45. manque+mR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 09:27:33
>>voytec+SL
They can look for other jobs but have to be in a new job within 60 days of leaving twitter with all the paperwork etc, given the market I would expect it is not as easy as say a year back even.

It is easier with other tech companies because unlike Musk they are/were generous severance time so those probably got 90+ days in severance time and the 60 days with say FAANG layoffs.

Also switching jobs can set them back on their path to permanent residency application timelines , depending on the country of citizenship that could be adding some years to continue on H1B and this dependency cycle so people close to their PR may try to stick it out

No one gets deported per se, most undocumented immigrants are people who fly over and overstay their visas, the USCIS will not check anything when they leave (by design so no one worries about leaving) however if they overstay the visa, it will be a tough time entering again , very likely to be rejected at the border or new visa application would be denied.

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46. voytec+KS[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 09:40:53
>>bileka+dQ
I agree that this is very much a management problem. Incompetent management, to add. I'm just curious why would these engineers stick for so long. Everything I read about Twitter nowadays suggest a highly toxic work environment. And from experience: having an unstable boss is tiring, to say the least.
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47. bombol+fU[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 10:00:11
>>edanm+Uw
Freedom to be exploited or be homeless…
replies(1): >>edanm+IX
48. croes+hU[view] [source] 2023-07-02 10:00:20
>>tmpz22+(OP)
And?

These are the hardcore programmers of Twitter 2.0, aren't they?

replies(1): >>romano+B41
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49. croes+oU[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 10:02:22
>>bileka+dQ
This sounds pretty much like boilerplate exploitation
replies(1): >>banana+L01
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50. edanm+IX[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 10:43:35
>>bombol+fU
I mean, that's not an "against Twitter" complaint, that's an "against everything in the way the world works" complaint.

I think it's a pretty wrong complaint too, but for sure that's not on Twitter.

(And I really don't think Twitter employees are the best case study here, they are mostly capable of not literally being homeless if they work somewhere else.)

replies(1): >>joe__f+2l1
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51. jonono+EZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 11:08:51
>>buitre+ub
This is the strongest job market for job seekers in about 60 years.
replies(1): >>o1y32+w41
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52. banana+L01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 11:23:04
>>croes+oU
welcome to the H1-B visa system!
replies(1): >>mechan+vv1
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53. o1y32+w41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 11:58:34
>>jonono+EZ
...if you flip burgers or change sheets in a hotel, sure. Maybe read about people finding engineering positions, understand that section of the job market and realize how out of touch you are.
replies(1): >>lenoci+2O1
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54. romano+B41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 11:59:16
>>croes+hU
AFAIK most are H1B holders who are in "hostage" situation.
replies(1): >>croes+e91
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55. o1y32+S41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 12:01:26
>>edanm+Uw
Easy to type that on your keyboard. Maybe work at Twitter for 3 months under H1B and come back and tell us how well it goes.
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56. bborud+O51[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 12:08:57
>>bileka+5P
> Elon strikes me as worse because he likes to think he understands > what his engineers know.

Early on in my career I had a name for this. I called it "gamle helter" in Norwegian which roughly translates to "old heroes". An "old hero" is someone who used to be competent in a field, has stopped being competent, doesn't recognize this themselves and is now a nuisance to anyone who actually knows what they are doing, but can't pull rank. One way to become an old hero is typically to end up in management and not practice whatever discipline you think you understand.

To be fair, I highly doubt that Musk was ever a competent software engineer, much less a good engineering manager. He is a PR person. He sells an image that he is a technology person.

replies(1): >>bernie+Uk1
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57. croes+e91[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 12:39:03
>>romano+B41
So a different kind of hardcore
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58. paxys+Aa1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 12:48:52
>>Johnny+1A
How many Twitter engineers are on H-1B? 10%? 50%? 90%? Unless someone can find this number out for real, why is the default argument "they are all being held captive and cannot leave"? Would you apply the same logic to Tesla and SpaceX, who have the same working conditions? Here's a more reasonable take - engineers believe in the product they are building and are happy with the salary they get.
replies(1): >>onlyre+ah1
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59. paxys+Ea1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 12:49:31
>>voytec+SL
They can look for another job while they are employed. If they quit they just have 60 days or they must leave the country.
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60. bombol+Cc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 13:05:54
>>woodso+Fr
It might be a surprise to you, but people who don't live in the USA have no idea of what the holidays in the USA are!
replies(2): >>joeyth+Kq1 >>woodso+f52
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61. onlyre+ah1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 13:40:10
>>paxys+Aa1
Twitter workforce is down ~80%: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.masslive.com/business/2023/...

Facebook was reportedly ~15% H1B workers. It doesn't take a lot of skew in who was fired and who didn't leave for other employment for Twitter to be >50% H1B at the moment.

replies(1): >>paxys+At1
62. bernie+Hk1[view] [source] 2023-07-02 14:09:14
>>tmpz22+(OP)
Union workers would typically collect double or triple time in these instances. Time and a half at least.
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63. bernie+Uk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 14:10:38
>>bborud+O51
Elon is the imposter.
replies(1): >>bileka+hp1
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64. joe__f+2l1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 14:11:38
>>edanm+IX
Yes as in, why is it normalised that you would expect to pushed too hard in many work environments, and it be on you to deal with this? Elon Musk is just a poster child for this kind of institutionalised bullying

As in my OP here, if you've set up your life around working at Twitter and then a new CEO rocks up and demands everyone 'go hard or go home', then sure you can go home and if you don't like his approach then eventually you'll have to. There will be people who find it more difficult to change jobs for whatever reason, and while they need to take responsibility for getting themselves out of a bad situation, it's not their fault that a new bully turned up in a position of authority on their block

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65. Michae+0p1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 14:40:19
>>j16sdi+zz
I wasn't writing it from any specific perspective?

The original ideal and present situation seems fairly clearly spelled out in an unbiased manner.

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66. bileka+hp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 14:43:00
>>bernie+Uk1
I'm not seeing the imposter side of things personally but maybe he does come across like the old addage : dumb people think they know everything, smart people know they know nothing. Or something to that effect.
replies(2): >>bigwav+Rq1 >>y0ink+Vx1
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67. joeyth+Cq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 14:53:12
>>voganm+uk
Not everybody has US calendars.
replies(1): >>whywhy+Ye6
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68. joeyth+Fq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 14:54:06
>>woodso+Fr
I would not be surprised if Twitter is substantially Indian or spread across the world.
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69. joeyth+Kq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 14:54:52
>>bombol+Cc1
Yup! And as somebody living in the United States, it is not so obvious how I would learn about Russian holidays, etc.
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70. joeyth+Qq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 14:55:28
>>boc+Yr
People are awake all hours of the day.
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71. bigwav+Rq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 14:55:34
>>bileka+hp1
I think the parent comment was jokingly making a reference to "Among Us", a game that spawned millions of memes about "the imposter". But my assumption could be wrong.
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72. paxys+At1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 15:13:59
>>onlyre+ah1
So are you saying that Twitter engineering is >50% H-1B at the moment? Do you have a source for it?
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73. paxys+6u1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 15:16:35
>>joe__f+4w
The actual insulting part is telling a group of skilled individuals who are willingly working a job and getting a good salary that they are "victims" and helpless and abused. Maybe let them do their thing, and you do yours. There's no need to be outraged on behalf of anyone else.
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74. mechan+vv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 15:25:03
>>banana+L01
Definitely end the H1-B program.
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75. y0ink+Vx1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 15:36:44
>>bileka+hp1
It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect, paraphrased by Bertrand Russell as "The stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

replies(1): >>ackfoo+Qda
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76. lenoci+2O1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 17:16:14
>>o1y32+w41
Agreed (assuming we’re talking about the US here). I’m not a rockstar dev but I have a lot of years of solid experience. I applied to 60+ programming jobs over the last four months without getting even a single technical interview. Every previous job search I’ve done over the last 20 years went much better so I don’t think it’s (mostly) me.
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77. starbu+742[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 18:51:35
>>bileka+5P
Didn’t wanna imply that management care for the state of the code with my original comment. That would be a bit delusional. Sorry if that caused confusion.

What I wanted to say is that if the state of the code is bad, it might make them care a bit more when their own state gets synchronized with that. Not necessarily about the code, but surely about the revenue and the looks.

Now, management being what it is, they of course will try to find a scapegoat. But that’s just part of the game and may be better than burning yourself out by trying to fix their nonsense.

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78. woodso+f52[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 18:58:06
>>bombol+Cc1
As someone not from the US, it’s not a surprise at all. But if someone says a foreign company is making their employees work on a holiday weekend, I don’t fault them for not explaining what specific holiday it is.
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79. shippi+e84[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-03 13:10:43
>>paxys+6c
What a bootlicker you are
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80. bart_s+WX5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-03 22:06:19
>>nashas+zi
Often the simplest shortest fix is the result of management’s directives. “We need this thing done yesterday” leads to the shortest fix, which compounds over time. Then the same managers wonder why it’s so hard to make changes or implement things in the future, without understanding their insistence on taking the path of least resistance is the direct cause.
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81. bart_s+q06[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-03 22:23:10
>>TheHap+uo
I guarantee you well over 50% of this website is American or lives currently in America. Twitter is also an American company so it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to connect the dots and understand that the commenter is referring to the US.
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82. whywhy+Ye6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-04 00:04:42
>>joeyth+Cq1
But everyone here has access to the internet and hopefully some really basic deductive reasoning skills.
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83. taskfo+hq8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-04 16:26:24
>>voganm+uk
not everything is obvious to everyone all the time. what's wrong with people asking questions? to other parts of the world american customs are weird/foreign, for instance regarding getting a day off.
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84. IIsi50+ti9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-04 20:38:17
>>badreq+Uz
I wouldn't judge it based on this alone.

I haven't generally used sentence-style queries wth any search engine since AskJeeves. Paitly because AskJeeves was terrible at finding what I was looking for, and partly because it almost always produces poor results on every other search engine I've known.

I just don't expect natural-language queries to work (yet). I've also watched too many people struggle to get "Ok Google, …" to return usable results; seems the majority of the time it fails or would have been faster to type out.

I still don't have a feel for Kagi. I used it occasionally when they had a free tier, but was always afraid my habit of submitting multiple revised queries to search engines would use up the free allotment. The current sample search for headphones was somewhat helpful recently, though "best x" is not a search pattern I tend to use, and even though I tend to search for 'phones with flatter response than most.

replies(1): >>TheHap+gy9
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85. TheHap+gy9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-04 22:17:13
>>IIsi50+ti9
> I still don't have a feel for Kagi. I used it occasionally when they had a free tier, but was always afraid my habit of submitting multiple revised queries to search engines would use up the free allotment.

I have the base plan (1400 queries a month I believe) and regularly revise queries or put in things I should use something else for (e.g "current time UTC"). I'm yet to exceed the included query quantity.

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86. ackfoo+Qda[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-05 05:22:02
>>y0ink+Vx1
Almost everyone is under (the folk version of) the Dunning-Kruger effect about the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Since you linked Wikipedia, I'll quote it.

> Nevertheless, low performers' self-assessment is lower than that of high performers.

> Among laypeople, the Dunning–Kruger effect is often misunderstood as the claim that people with low intelligence are more confident in their knowledge and skills than people with high intelligence.

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