zlacker

Twitter Engineers have had over a year to get out and find another job. At this point the terms of their employment and the expectations from their boss are all crystal clear. Hard to sympathize with those who continue to stick around for whatever reason.

>>paxys+(OP)
In this job market, it's hard. And many engineers are on H1B visas so it's even harder to jump ship.

>>buitre+w
If they truly cannot get another job despite trying hard for 15 months then really they should be thanking Musk for giving them a steady paycheck when no one else in the industry will.

>>paxys+81
If I understand correctly, the U.S. doesn’t allow them to get another job without getting a new H-1B and there are dramatically more applicants than visas each year. They are unlikely to get a new one so their options are to either stay at Twitter or leave the U.S.

>>Wingy+x1
You understand wrong. If you already have an H-1B visa then you don't need to enter the lottery again. You just need another job offer in a similar role, and can start working immediately.

>>paxys+C1
Can you provide a source on this? It sounds like you know what you're talking about, but this is the internet and I'm not in a position to tell if you're mistaken or not.

>>window+92
Just google H1B visa transfer. All of this is (or at least should be) pretty common knowledge in the tech world.

>>Wingy+x1
You got it wrong. There is a process called H1B Transfer. Employers file for transfer to their company once they make an offer.

https://visaguide.world/us-visa/nonimmigrant/employment/h1b/...

>>window+92
This is just an h1b transfer. No lottery needed. Not as easy as having a green card, but still an order of magnitude easier than doing the h1b lottery. https://www.upcounsel.com/h1b-visa-transfer#:~:text=Yes%2C%2....

>>paxys+(OP)
Without knowing much about the people I opt to approach this with a bit more empathy. Things are shitty for lots of people. Now is not the time to judge people.

>>barbaz+Z3
Why assume anything at all about them? Maybe they believe in the product they are building and don't mind putting in the extra work?

>>paxys+C1
What you said is true - a new lottery is not needed. However before offering a job to a H1B candidate the company should demonstrate that it advertised this job to the general public and no non H1B candidate (a US citizen or permanent resident) applied or was eligible. In the current job market, there are tons of citizens and permanent residents in the job market making it difficult if not impossible for a H1B holder to get a new job.

>>odux+R4
The original purpose of the H1B system was exactly for those rare individuals that have some X skill(s) that can't be met by the domestic job market. The implication being that practically zero entry to intermediate level jobs would have H1Bs filling them, even in SV.

Though the expected norm nowadays is for it to be a cheaper second-rate labour supply restricted by years long waiting lists and lotteries, and not a smooth pipeline of geniuses and super-geniuses interested in emigrating to the US,

>>paxys+(OP)
The activist mindset is not part of professionalism. If people chose to stick with their jobs, it is their professionalism. And if people chose not to leave, it is a sacrifice they made.

Any professional worth his salt would do the same.

>>Wingy+x1
You could’ve googled about H-1B before commenting.

>>paxys+C1
> You understand wrong. If you already have an H-1B visa then you don't need to enter the lottery again. You just need another job offer in a similar role, and can start working immediately.

The other employer still needs to be willing to sponsor you, and that's often not the case.

>>paxys+C1
> don't need to enter the lottery again

Yes

> can start working immediately

Abso-lutely not. Check out Reddit to look for accounts of how the transfer works and see how easy it really is...

When you transfer, you need a lot of cooperation from the new firm as they have to be ok filing paperwork, they have to do it in a timely fashion, and due to processing delays on the order of weeks (if all goes well) you cannot start work immediately. For many, many employers, this puts you at a strong disadvantage against applicants who are all good to go and ready to show up for work on Monday.

>>paxys+81
> If they truly cannot get another job despite trying hard for 15 months then really they should be thanking Musk for giving them a steady paycheck when no one else in the industry will.

That's an asshole take.

Everything I've read is that Twitter is working its remaining engineers to the bone. Job searches can be extremely draining, and I can imagine many Twitter engineers don't have the energy remaining. Add to that mix visa and immigration issues, and I could totally see people getting trapped there.

>>tivert+4h
The "golden handcuffs", I know many people in this position and have been in it myself.

>>paxys+(OP)
You are telling people who are being abused that it's their fault that they didn't leave. This is victim blaming.

>>joe__f+6l
Are you really considering a tough work environment at a high tech company to be abuse? At company that little voluntarily choose to be employed at?

Do you know what conditions are like in most jobs?

>>Michae+17
What you said is correct from the policy/public perspective.

This thread is talking about, from employee's perspective, it is hard to jump ship.

>>paxys+(OP)
Sounds like you live in a bubble where nobody needs immigration sponsorship.

>>paxys+(OP)
Someone pointed out that it looks like most of the workers that stayed at Twitter appear to be foreign born and are probably reliant on Twitter's sponsorship of their H1-B visa.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7z5px/twitter-employees-on-...

>>tivert+4h
Devs should be thankful not to Musk but to previous management who sponsored them visas.

This is what I think happened:

- few companies are willing to go through paperwork to sponsor visas. Old Twitter was, Musk Twitter probably isn't

- Musk inherited a bunch of visa-sponsored devs from old Twitter, and they will have trouble finding a new h1b sponsor to transfer

- those are the devs that cannot negotiate better salaries or leave easily

Basically Musk's Twitter's lights are on thanks to those employees. And whether they are good or not doesn't matter, they can't leave either way, job market is hostile

>>paxys+(OP)
Looking for a new job requires time and energy (especially at the moment) and these are scarce resources when you've been un constant crunch for the past 9 months…

>>Johnny+3p
Can sponsored H1-B visa holders look for another sponsorship to try to switch jobs, or would they get deported after resigning from "hardcore Twitter"?

>>voytec+UA
They would need to go through the process again of a new visa with the new potential employer. It's a real pain.

I would imagine a lot of the H1 b visa holders are there just to let their visa run out while making some money.

Anyway it doesn't matter. This isn't and engineer problem. It's a management problem. The management is the definition of incompetent.

>>voytec+UA
They can look for other jobs but have to be in a new job within 60 days of leaving twitter with all the paperwork etc, given the market I would expect it is not as easy as say a year back even.

It is easier with other tech companies because unlike Musk they are/were generous severance time so those probably got 90+ days in severance time and the 60 days with say FAANG layoffs.

Also switching jobs can set them back on their path to permanent residency application timelines , depending on the country of citizenship that could be adding some years to continue on H1B and this dependency cycle so people close to their PR may try to stick it out

No one gets deported per se, most undocumented immigrants are people who fly over and overstay their visas, the USCIS will not check anything when they leave (by design so no one worries about leaving) however if they overstay the visa, it will be a tough time entering again , very likely to be rejected at the border or new visa application would be denied.

>>bileka+fF
I agree that this is very much a management problem. Incompetent management, to add. I'm just curious why would these engineers stick for so long. Everything I read about Twitter nowadays suggest a highly toxic work environment. And from experience: having an unstable boss is tiring, to say the least.

>>edanm+Wl
Freedom to be exploited or be homeless…

>>bileka+fF
This sounds pretty much like boilerplate exploitation

>>bombol+hJ
I mean, that's not an "against Twitter" complaint, that's an "against everything in the way the world works" complaint.

I think it's a pretty wrong complaint too, but for sure that's not on Twitter.

(And I really don't think Twitter employees are the best case study here, they are mostly capable of not literally being homeless if they work somewhere else.)

>>buitre+w
This is the strongest job market for job seekers in about 60 years.

>>croes+qJ
welcome to the H1-B visa system!

>>jonono+GO
...if you flip burgers or change sheets in a hotel, sure. Maybe read about people finding engineering positions, understand that section of the job market and realize how out of touch you are.

>>edanm+Wl
Easy to type that on your keyboard. Maybe work at Twitter for 3 months under H1B and come back and tell us how well it goes.

>>Johnny+3p
How many Twitter engineers are on H-1B? 10%? 50%? 90%? Unless someone can find this number out for real, why is the default argument "they are all being held captive and cannot leave"? Would you apply the same logic to Tesla and SpaceX, who have the same working conditions? Here's a more reasonable take - engineers believe in the product they are building and are happy with the salary they get.

>>voytec+UA
They can look for another job while they are employed. If they quit they just have 60 days or they must leave the country.

>>paxys+CZ
Twitter workforce is down ~80%: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.masslive.com/business/2023/...

Facebook was reportedly ~15% H1B workers. It doesn't take a lot of skew in who was fired and who didn't leave for other employment for Twitter to be >50% H1B at the moment.

>>edanm+KM
Yes as in, why is it normalised that you would expect to pushed too hard in many work environments, and it be on you to deal with this? Elon Musk is just a poster child for this kind of institutionalised bullying

As in my OP here, if you've set up your life around working at Twitter and then a new CEO rocks up and demands everyone 'go hard or go home', then sure you can go home and if you don't like his approach then eventually you'll have to. There will be people who find it more difficult to change jobs for whatever reason, and while they need to take responsibility for getting themselves out of a bad situation, it's not their fault that a new bully turned up in a position of authority on their block

>>j16sdi+Bo
I wasn't writing it from any specific perspective?

The original ideal and present situation seems fairly clearly spelled out in an unbiased manner.

>>onlyre+c61
So are you saying that Twitter engineering is >50% H-1B at the moment? Do you have a source for it?

>>joe__f+6l
The actual insulting part is telling a group of skilled individuals who are willingly working a job and getting a good salary that they are "victims" and helpless and abused. Maybe let them do their thing, and you do yours. There's no need to be outraged on behalf of anyone else.

>>banana+NP
Definitely end the H1-B program.

>>o1y32+yT
Agreed (assuming we’re talking about the US here). I’m not a rockstar dev but I have a lot of years of solid experience. I applied to 60+ programming jobs over the last four months without getting even a single technical interview. Every previous job search I’ve done over the last 20 years went much better so I don’t think it’s (mostly) me.

>>paxys+81
What a bootlicker you are