zlacker

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1. memish+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-12-16 21:42:18
"Federal intelligence and law enforcement reach into Twitter included the Department of Homeland Security, which partnered with security contractors and think tanks to pressure Twitter to moderate content."

Is this a violation of the 1st Amendment or a way to skirt around it?

replies(5): >>pcwalt+65 >>starkd+Ec >>devind+aF >>Dantes+L41 >>nobody+3R5
2. pcwalt+65[view] [source] 2022-12-16 22:08:28
>>memish+(OP)
For the most part, the US government is allowed to ask anyone to voluntarily remove anything (a few limits such as those set by the establishment clause notwithstanding). That's what happened here.
replies(1): >>simple+lK
3. starkd+Ec[view] [source] 2022-12-16 22:44:07
>>memish+(OP)
The problem was that it was entirely one way. This was not about dangerous misinformation. Many of the accounts they wanted suppressed were low-follower accounts making jokes. A ton of FBI agents paid to sway an election. Even if you are comfortable with the outcome of the election, what about future elections when they decide to back a candidate you do not support?
replies(2): >>Apocry+Ri >>George+tO
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4. Apocry+Ri[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 23:22:58
>>starkd+Ec
What do you mean by one way? They clearly asked for scrutiny of pro-Democratic tweeters in addition to pro-Republican ones:

https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1603857581503569929

https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1603857590299103232

Perhaps you should actually read Taibbi's work in this thread.

replies(1): >>starkd+qF
5. devind+aF[view] [source] 2022-12-17 01:50:26
>>memish+(OP)
Neither. Social media companies are in regular contact with all major governments about lots of issues. A weekly "hey all here are some accounts we noticed, have a great week" email to a designated Twitter contact for review requests is completely ordinary. YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, everyone hears from the U.S., U.K., France, Germany, Australia, Japan.... and decides what to do with the information.
replies(1): >>simple+TJ
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6. starkd+qF[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 01:51:26
>>Apocry+Ri
It doesn't matter if they were pro-dem or pro-republican. They were doing nothing wrong. What business is it to the FBI. The FBI had partisan agents working on government time to censor American citizens during an election. If you step out of your partisan headspace for a moment, you might realize how dangerous this is.

Imagine how this my play out in a future election with different candidates.

replies(3): >>Apocry+qJ >>weaksa+rK >>UncleM+9p1
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7. Apocry+qJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:24:50
>>starkd+qF
But there is no partisan headspace if both parties were impacted. Clearly their lack of interest is due to other factors, which you must learn to appeal to. Not everyone fails to care because of petty political concerns.
replies(1): >>simple+AK
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8. simple+TJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:28:06
>>devind+aF
So... because it's ordinary it doesn't violate 1A?
replies(1): >>acdha+qK
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9. simple+lK[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:31:25
>>pcwalt+65
If you run a social media company and the government tells you, "Hey, we want these people banned", and you ban them, is the company "voluntarily" choosing to ban them?

Or are they doing it under duress?

Of course it's the latter.

The US gov. has been threatening to take down social media companies for years. Do you think Twitter really wanted to upset them now?

replies(4): >>pcwalt+ES >>djur+R11 >>prawn+v41 >>epakai+061
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10. acdha+qK[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:32:05
>>simple+TJ
You run a bar. There’s a drunk guy on one end of the patio screaming at people. If a cop walks by and tells the bouncer “that guy seems pretty drunk”, is it a 1A violation when they subsequently enforce their rules?

The question to ask is whether any of these accounts would have been allowed if reported by people. There’s no evidence that the FBI was making threats that something otherwise allowed had to be removed.

replies(2): >>simple+1L >>scythe+s51
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11. weaksa+rK[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:32:15
>>starkd+qF
This is what you could say a classic goal post moving comment from the initial position of "it's only ok because it helped you"(which in and of itself is projection and also pointedly false) to "that doesn't matter they were censoring" (which again is false since they asked for the content team to review it.)
replies(2): >>Rosana+BN >>starkd+gZ1
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12. simple+AK[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:33:32
>>Apocry+qJ
So it's your estimation that both parties were censored an equal amount?
replies(1): >>Apocry+uL
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13. simple+1L[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:37:31
>>acdha+qK
You're not seeing the point.

The cop was telling the bouncer, "Throw that guy out."

And the bar owner did what the cop said, because the police department had threatened to shut down bar owners in the city for the last three years.

replies(3): >>acdha+6M >>jacque+9M >>jcranm+gN
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14. Apocry+uL[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:40:54
>>simple+AK
Based on Taibbi's own evidence, it is perhaps arguably so. But to me, more important is the total number of accounts looked at, which appears to be in the mere dozens, if not around a dozen accounts, with none more notable than a lesser Baldwin brother.

In principle, certainly it is not great for security services to meddle in public spaces. In reality, I am willing to believe that the federal government is a tiny fish in the sea of requests from local authorities, individual police departments, private individuals via reports, not least of all the legally persons we call corporations. I bet any day, Twitter's moderation teams are blanketed with requests from companies and businesses of every type and size, both advertisers and not. All equipped with legal teams that could potentially target Twitter.

In short, I find it to be performative virtue-signaling to be concerned about around a dozen small potatoes that the FBI asked for the mods to take a look at. Especially if this might just be cover for the real large-scale systemic censorships that occur at some deeper level that no FOIA or Taibbi journalism would be able to unearth. Especially when the PRISM programs are right there if you want something of substance to be outraged about. This, in comparison, is no different from a mom and pop store asking Twitter to go after an abusive account spreading slander about them. Litigiousness is an all-American custom. This didn't even trigger any warrant canaries. Hysteria over this is concern-trolling.

replies(1): >>starkd+Q02
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15. acdha+6M[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:46:03
>>simple+1L
Your last paragraph is pure supposition. This thread clearly shows Twitter staff receiving reports and seeing whether those accounts did in fact violate the rules. What’s missing is any sign of what you’re confidently saying happened: something otherwise allowed being blocked because the FBI insisted. Please feel free to provide specific examples.
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16. jacque+9M[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:46:31
>>simple+1L
You do realize that the police have been vested with the authority to enforce the law?

A bar owner that does not follow the instructions of the authorities is going to find their bar closed in short order because they have to comply with the law and with instructions by parties authorized to give them.

To paraphrase the trope that those that don't like Twitter are free to create their own: if you don't like the way society works then you are free to create your own. On Mars or something.

replies(1): >>simple+tN
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17. jcranm+gN[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:54:46
>>simple+1L
> And the bar owner did what the cop said, because the police department had threatened to shut down bar owners in the city for the last three years.

If that is true, that would make it government coercion. But no one has properly alleged anything with regards to Twitter on that analogue.

replies(1): >>jacque+GN
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18. simple+tN[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:55:41
>>jacque+9M
You do realize that it's not the job of the FBI to police 1A speech, especially about an election, right?
replies(1): >>Apocry+uO
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19. Rosana+BN[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:56:28
>>weaksa+rK
There's enough nothing-burger in this thread to start a nothing-franchise.
replies(1): >>jacque+NS
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20. jacque+GN[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:56:58
>>jcranm+gN
The FBI would not pass on something in the nature of a direct order without having a paper signed by a judge to back it up.
replies(3): >>simple+IP >>devind+x51 >>UncleM+To1
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21. George+tO[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:02:25
>>starkd+Ec
> The problem was that it was entirely one way.

No, government should not be policing speech on private platforms, period. At most, they should concern themselves with clearly illegal things—threats of violence, child pornongraphy, etc. It doesn't matter whether or not they are being "balanced".

replies(1): >>deburo+g61
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22. Apocry+uO[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:02:32
>>simple+tN
What is your definition of policing? If those FBI agents had been individual citizens who found misinformation and hit the report button, little different would have occurred. They got to cut the line, perhaps, but I doubt it would be much ahead of organizations like Microsoft, Stanford University, or the Archdiocese of Boston, to name some random bigwig organizations who could potentially complain to Twitter about something on Twitter.
replies(1): >>simple+TQ
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23. simple+IP[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:11:01
>>jacque+GN
Good point
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24. simple+TQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:19:05
>>Apocry+uO
I have a really hard time believing Twitter would have reacted in similar way if an individual or company initiated the same takedowns
replies(2): >>Apocry+lR >>jacque+JS
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25. Apocry+lR[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:21:52
>>simple+TQ
You bet your ass they would if those individuals were celebrity influencers. Or if those companies were advertisers.

Twitter needs such entities to survive. Displeasing then is more existentially threatening than running afoul of the FBI.

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26. pcwalt+ES[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:30:48
>>simple+lK
> If you run a social media company and the government tells you, "Hey, we want these people banned", and you ban them, is the company "voluntarily" choosing to ban them?

Yes? When the CDC says "we recommend you get vaccinated against the flu", and you get vaccinated, you're acting voluntarily, despite the government recommendation.

replies(1): >>simple+HT
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27. jacque+JS[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:31:19
>>simple+TQ
As the source of multiple such requests to Twitter I guarantee you that they would.
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28. jacque+NS[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:31:54
>>Rosana+BN
A whole chain of them.
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29. simple+HT[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:37:40
>>pcwalt+ES
So, did you just not read the rest of my comment?
replies(2): >>Apocry+OV >>pcwalt+O41
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30. Apocry+OV[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:54:24
>>simple+HT
What duress was Twitter under? It sounds like they happily cooperated because they mostly agreed with the FBI’s recommendations. Perhaps you can call that bias in favor of Trump’s government. But based on the OP account, it was freely voluntary.
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31. djur+R11[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 04:49:51
>>simple+lK
Who did the FBI ask to have banned? I'm not seeing that in the emails Taibbi published.
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32. prawn+v41[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 05:15:34
>>simple+lK
They reported users/posts for review. Happens on my forum all the time from all sorts of users (public, lawyers, etc). Up to the publisher to make their call from that point. In one case I bothered reading in this set, they mentioned that legal docs would follow if they were seeking to identify and pursue an author (pre-action discovery).

It didn’t seem that the FBI were going into detail on any cases. I wondered if some were likely to be considered concerted foreign interference that they’d unearthed and policing that was within their remit. I assume there’s some overlap between Twitter’s ToS re misinformation and the FBI’s assessment, if that makes sense.

33. Dantes+L41[view] [source] 2022-12-17 05:18:08
>>memish+(OP)
It seems like it. But I’m no legal scholar.

Would love to see how something like this would fare in a Supreme Court case.

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34. pcwalt+O41[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 05:18:35
>>simple+HT
I disagree with the premise that the US has been threatening to take down social media companies, so I didn't feel it was worth responding to.

Also, the guidelines ask you not to write comments like that.

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35. scythe+s51[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 05:24:14
>>acdha+qK
Right, but the cop didn't come by so he could look for people to throw out. The FBI isn't just "walking by" Twitter, they're there for a reason.
replies(1): >>acdha+f92
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36. devind+x51[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 05:24:57
>>jacque+GN
They didn't - as I said before, this kind of communication is commonplace between large tech properties and governments, other large companies, NGOs, etc. It wasn't anything like a direct order. Local law enforcement, city councils, lobbyists, PR people, anyone with information or access will often have a more direct line to Twitter, Youtube, etc than the 'report' button.

There do exist direct orders to reveal or conceal information that do require a judge to sign, things like National Security Letters. It's remarkable that NSLs and other compelling documents don't get more play in these conversations. They actually are what people think these friendly emails are.

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37. epakai+061[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 05:30:36
>>simple+lK
Where is current twitter's lawsuit if that's the case? There hasn't been anything released that indicates these moderation actions were taken under duress. Old twitter wanted to moderate their platform in that way.
replies(1): >>cypres+rp1
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38. deburo+g61[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 05:33:00
>>George+tO
I agree. The ease of it all and for frivolous things.

And to think the gov tried to have a department of disinformation.

That’s how you divide the country even further.

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39. UncleM+To1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 09:23:15
>>jacque+GN
Never worked in a Trust&Safety team for a major platform, I see.
replies(1): >>jacque+eE1
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40. UncleM+9p1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 09:25:11
>>starkd+qF
Literally one comment ago you said "the problem was that it was entirely one way."
replies(1): >>starkd+n12
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41. cypres+rp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 09:28:58
>>epakai+061
Because that would be so hard to prove.

It's like when people "voluntarily" do things that cops ask during traffic stops that are beyond what's necessary by law. It's not that people want, they are just scared and don't want to get in trouble.

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42. jacque+eE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 12:27:33
>>UncleM+To1
Actually owned what was at the time the #23 site in the world with pretty much all of th e issues that Twitter had to contend with.
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43. starkd+gZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 15:27:53
>>weaksa+rK
Huh? You can simulataneously point to a bias, while at the same time realizing that individual accounts don't always neatly fall into one of two positions. There was a clear indication they wanted to suppress anything that would suggest an idea counter to a certain narrative. That effort even extended to parody and jokes. Everyone makes jokes.
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44. starkd+Q02[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 15:37:55
>>Apocry+uL
There is a major difference when a branch of government makes these requests as compared to another business entity. Especially, the federal government. For one, it becomes more of a command than a request. The consequences for not complying is orders of magnitude greater.

It's not performative virtue signalling to push back on a lesser threat just because you are not pushing back on the greater threat. The gov't has been very good at hiding the existence of these programs. We do not know much about PRISM, so there's less to go on. You need to push back whereever it occurs. We still have no idea how widespread this is. Not to mention, it is likely going on with google, facebook, instagram as well.

replies(1): >>Apocry+Wc2
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45. starkd+n12[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 15:40:17
>>UncleM+9p1
Individuals accounts cannot always be categorized in one of two ways. There was a consistent attempt to counter any ideas that ran counter to a certain narrative.
replies(2): >>Apocry+By2 >>nobody+dT5
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46. acdha+f92[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 16:20:42
>>scythe+s51
But if all they’re doing is politely asking for the company’s own policy to be enforced, and doing so evenly as shown in the thread it’s really hard to see this in the light which right-media is hyping it. This is the most they’ve found and it’s notable for what we don’t see: no hint of threats, nothing which isn’t a policy violation getting taken down, just a bunch of people doing their jobs and dealing with grey areas.
replies(1): >>scythe+jZ5
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47. Apocry+Wc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 16:39:16
>>starkd+Q02
Based on other posts in this thread, it sounds like SOP as far as content moderation goes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34026457

It sounds like most of this discussion is entirely driven by normative fancies rather than any actual knowledge of how these processes are already being run in the industry, let alone how the first amendment actually applies. For the latter, it would seem that a whole bevy of court cases undergird this whole endeavor:

https://reason.com/volokh/2021/07/19/when-government-urges-p...

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48. Apocry+By2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 18:32:41
>>starkd+n12
You are contradicting yourself. “The problem was that it was entirely one way.”
replies(1): >>starkd+mk3
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49. starkd+mk3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-18 00:09:08
>>Apocry+By2
Entirely one way in the sense that they were out to re-inforce a narrative.
replies(2): >>Apocry+Kl3 >>nobody+MT5
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50. Apocry+Kl3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-18 00:20:49
>>starkd+mk3
What would have made it more of a comfortably multilateral situation?
51. nobody+3R5[view] [source] 2022-12-18 21:05:56
>>memish+(OP)
>"Federal intelligence and law enforcement reach into Twitter included the Department of Homeland Security, which partnered with security contractors and think tanks to pressure Twitter to moderate content."

>Is this a violation of the 1st Amendment or a way to skirt around it?

Which specific security contractors? Which specific think tanks? The above assertion that you quoted makes several assertions, none of which (at least AFAICT) have any facts, data or evidence attached to them. Perhaps I'm missing something important? If so, what might that be?

What's more,. I receive multiple contacts from DHS daily[0]. And I (as an individual with minimal resources and little ability to "fight" the government) have never felt pressured by the Federal government to do anything.

I'd expect that corporations with multiple billions in revenue (like Twitter) and lawyers on staff would zealously protect their independence and reputation rather than being seen as shills for some shadowy "government conspiracy."

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersecurity_and_Infrastructu...

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52. nobody+dT5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-18 21:14:50
>>starkd+n12
>There was a consistent attempt to counter any ideas that ran counter to a certain narrative.

An attempt by whom? Please be specific and name names.

Counter to which specific narrative? Please be specific and detailed.

Otherwise, you're just making unsupported claims. Not a good look, friend.

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53. nobody+MT5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-18 21:16:59
>>starkd+mk3
>Entirely one way in the sense that they were out to re-inforce a narrative.

You keep referring to a "narrative," but you don't provide any details WRT to the ideas presented in such a "narrative."

As such, I have to reject your claims for lack of detail, facts or evidence. Feel free to change my mind by providing such things.

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54. scythe+jZ5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-18 21:45:11
>>acdha+f92
>and doing so evenly as shown in the thread

It doesn't matter, and I don't care, if the FBI requests were "even" on some partisan scoreboard.

>all they’re doing is politely asking for the company’s own policy to be enforced

This makes the incorrect assumption that the FBI's stated concerns are equal to their actual concerns. But this is the FBI we're talking about here. If they were actually investigating a crime it would be one thing. But randomly harassing private citizens by rules-lawyering is not appropriate.

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