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[parent] [thread] 81 comments
1. throwa+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-05-18 03:08:52
That OpenAI are institutionally unethical. That such a young company can be become rotten so quickly can only be due to leadership instruction or leadership failure.
replies(4): >>jasonm+o3 >>smt88+e5 >>ben_w+xc >>benree+Fy
2. jasonm+o3[view] [source] 2024-05-18 04:21:40
>>throwa+(OP)
Clearly by design.

The most dishonest leadership.

3. smt88+e5[view] [source] 2024-05-18 04:56:44
>>throwa+(OP)
Look at Sam Altman's career and tweets. He's a clown at best, and at worst he's a manipulative crook who only cares about his own enrichment and uses pro-social ideas to give himself a veneer of trustworthiness.
replies(9): >>orland+J6 >>csomar+Vd >>whoist+me >>hacker+xe >>raverb+De >>andrep+Wg >>comboy+wn >>tinyho+1s >>skeete+AW
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4. orland+J6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 05:27:14
>>smt88+e5
Awfully familiar to the other South-African emerald mine inheritor tech mogul.
replies(5): >>kmeist+7d >>treme+xg >>kayceb+An >>xaPe+TA >>xyzzyz+0q1
5. ben_w+xc[view] [source] 2024-05-18 07:00:02
>>throwa+(OP)
We already know there's been a leadership failure due to the mere existence of the board weirdness last year; if there has been any clarity to that, I've missed it for all the popcorn gossiping related to it.

Everyone including the board's own chosen replacements for Altman siding with Altman seems to me to not be compatible with his current leadership being the root cause of the current discontent… so I'm blaming Microsoft, who were the moustache-twirling villains when I was a teen.

Of course, thanks to the NDAs hiding information, I may just be wildly wrong.

replies(1): >>Sharli+si
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6. kmeist+7d[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 07:07:52
>>orland+J6
I'm starting to think the relatives of South African emerald mine owners might not be the best people to trust...
replies(2): >>fennec+Cs >>pawelm+7u
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7. csomar+Vd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 07:22:49
>>smt88+e5
Social engineering has been a thing well before computers and the internet...
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8. whoist+me[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 07:28:00
>>smt88+e5
Indeed. I’ve heard first hand accounts that would make it impossible for me to trust him. He’s very good at the game. But I’d not want to touch him with a barge pole.
replies(1): >>nar001+zs
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9. hacker+xe[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 07:31:25
>>smt88+e5
the name OpenAI itself reminds me every day of this.
replies(2): >>genevr+jn >>deadba+TM
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10. raverb+De[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 07:32:43
>>smt88+e5
The startup world (as the artistic world, the sports world, etc) values healthy transgression of the rules

But the line between healthy and unlawful transgression can be a thin line

replies(1): >>Walter+4T
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11. treme+xg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 08:02:19
>>orland+J6
Please. Elon's track record to take tesla from concept car stage to current mass production levels and building SpaceX from scratch is hardly comparable to Altman's track record.
replies(4): >>satvik+Kj >>jajko+cn >>Techni+Lq >>lr1970+AG
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12. andrep+Wg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 08:06:47
>>smt88+e5
Many easily fooled rubes believe that veneer, so I guess it's working for him.
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13. Sharli+si[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 08:32:04
>>ben_w+xc
Everyone? What about the board that fired him, and all of those who’ve left the company? It seems to me more like those people are leaving who are rightly concerned about the direction things are going, and those people are staying who think that getting rich outweighs ethical – and possibly existential – concerns. Plus maybe those who still believe they can effect a positive change within the company. With regard to the letter – it’s difficult to say how many of the undersigned simply signed because of social pressure.
replies(1): >>ben_w+gj
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14. ben_w+gj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 08:40:23
>>Sharli+si
> Everyone? What about the board that fired him,

I meant of the employees, obviously not the board.

Also excluded: all the people who never worked there who think Altman is weird, Elon Musk who is suing them (and probably the New York Times on similar grounds), and the protestors who dropped leaflets on one of his public appearances.

> and all of those who’ve left the company?

Happened after those events; at the time it was so close to being literally employee who signed the letter saying "bring Sam back or we walk" that the rest can be assumed to have been off sick that day even despite the reputation the US has for very limited holidays and getting people to use those holidays for sick leave.

> It seems to me more like those people are leaving who are rightly concerned about the direction things are going, and those people are staying who think that getting rich outweighs ethical – and possibly existential – concerns. Plus maybe those who still believe they can effect a positive change within the company.

Obviously so, I'm only asserting that this doesn't appear to be due to Altman, despite him being CEO.

("Appear to be" is of course doing some heavy lifting here: unless someone wants to literally surveil the company and publish the results, and expect that to be illegal because otherwise it makes NDAs pointless, we're all in the dark).

replies(1): >>shkkmo+m41
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15. satvik+Kj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 08:45:28
>>treme+xg
Indeed, at least Elon and his teams actually accomplished something worthwhile compared to Altman.
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16. jajko+cn[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 09:39:14
>>treme+xg
But he is a manager, not an engineer although he sells himself off as such. He keeps smart capable folks around, abuses most of them pretty horribly, and when he intervenes with products its hit and miss. For example latest Tesla Model 3 changes must have been pretty major fuckup and there is no way he didn't ack it all.

Plus all self-driving lies and more lies well within fraud territory at this point. Not even going into his sociopathic personality, massive childish ego and apparent 'daddy issues' which in men manifest exactly like him. He is not in day-to-day SpaceX control and it shows.

replies(2): >>treme+Tx >>former+DL
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17. genevr+jn[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 09:41:52
>>hacker+xe
I knew their vision of open source AI wouldn't last but it surprised me how fast it was.
replies(2): >>baq+Yp >>w0m+Ux
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18. comboy+wn[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 09:46:48
>>smt88+e5
I'm surprised at such a mean comment and lots of follow-ups with agreement. I don't know Sam personally, I've only heard him here and there online from before OpenAI days and all I got was a good impression. He seems smart and pretty humble. Apart from all openai drama which I don't know enough to have an opinion, past-openai he also seems to be talking with sense.

Since so many people took time to put him down there here can anybody provide some explanation to me? Preferably not just about how closed openai is, but specifically about Sam. He is in a pretty powerful position and maybe I'm missing some info.

replies(1): >>FartyM+Mo
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19. kayceb+An[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 09:48:14
>>orland+J6
Are you saying that Altman has family that did business in South African emerald mines? I can't find info about this
replies(2): >>krypto+mw >>Walter+sS
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20. FartyM+Mo[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 10:09:14
>>comboy+wn
People who have worked with him have publicly called him a manipulative liar:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/1804u5y/former_open...

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21. baq+Yp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 10:27:44
>>genevr+jn
That vision, if it was ever there, died before ChatGPT was released. It was just a hiring scheme to attract researchers.

pg calls sama ‘naughty’. I call him ‘dangerous’.

replies(1): >>olalon+2P
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22. Techni+Lq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 10:41:48
>>treme+xg
SpaceX didn’t start from scratch. Their initial designs were based on NASA designs. Stop perpetuating the “genius engineer” myth around Elon Musk.
replies(5): >>hanspe+Js >>Sirens+Ks >>colibr+Px >>KyleOn+cy >>ekianj+QC
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23. tinyho+1s[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 10:59:28
>>smt88+e5
Well, more than 90% of OpenAI employees backed him up when the board fired him. Maybe he's not the clown you claim he is.
replies(2): >>iinnPP+mt >>llamai+wt
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24. nar001+zs[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 11:05:29
>>whoist+me
Any stories or events you can talk about? It sounds interesting
replies(3): >>benree+yy >>lr1970+9G >>bookaw+W41
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25. fennec+Cs[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 11:06:42
>>kmeist+7d
Lmao no point in worrying about AI spreading FUD when people do it all by themselves.

You know what AI is actually gonna be useful for? AR source attachments to everything that comes out of our monkey mouths, or a huge floating [no source] over someone's head.

Realtime factual accuracy checking pls I need it.

replies(2): >>docmar+gH >>postmo+iV
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26. hanspe+Js[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 11:07:44
>>Techni+Lq
By that logic nothing has started from scratch.
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27. Sirens+Ks[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 11:07:59
>>Techni+Lq
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch You must first invent the universe”

…no one “started from scratch", the sum of all knowledge is built on prior foundations.

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28. iinnPP+mt[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 11:16:30
>>tinyho+1s
People are self-motivated more often than not.
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29. llamai+wt[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 11:18:32
>>tinyho+1s
Or they didn’t want the company, their job, and all of their equity to evaporate
replies(1): >>tinyho+Q01
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30. pawelm+7u[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 11:25:59
>>kmeist+7d
You are not responsible for the sins of your father regardless of how seriously fucked in the head he is.
replies(3): >>Loughl+uv >>progra+x81 >>kmeist+E93
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31. Loughl+uv[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 11:41:25
>>pawelm+7u
No but there is the old nature versus nurture debate. If you're raised in a home with a parent who has zero qualms about exploiting human suffering for profit, that's probably going to have an impact, right?
replies(1): >>johnis+QK
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32. krypto+mw[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 11:50:42
>>kayceb+An
No. Some dude that launches rockets did, though.
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33. colibr+Px[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:06:58
>>Techni+Lq
Altman is riding a new tech wave, and his team has a couple of years' head start. Musk's reusable rockets were conceptualized a long time ago (Tintin's Destination Moon dates back to 1953) and could have become a reality several decades ago.
replies(1): >>treme+fy
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34. treme+Tx[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:07:30
>>jajko+cn
"A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticize work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life's realities—all these are marks, not ... of superiority but of weakness.”
replies(1): >>Angost+fD
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35. w0m+Ux[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:07:32
>>genevr+jn
It was impractical from the start; they had to pivot before a they were able to get an LLM proper out (before ~anyone had heard of them)
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36. KyleOn+cy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:09:36
>>Techni+Lq
I feel like Steve Jobs also fits this category if we are going to talk about people who aren't really worthy of genius title and used other people's accomplishments to reach their goals.

We all know it as the engineers who made iPhone possible.

replies(2): >>KyleOn+zz >>837204+zG
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37. treme+fy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:10:02
>>colibr+Px
You seriously trying to take his credit away for reusable rocket with "nu uh, it was in scifi first?" Wow.

"A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticize work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life's realities—all these are marks, not ... of superiority but of weakness.”

replies(2): >>colibr+yA >>cess11+1W
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38. benree+yy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:13:05
>>nar001+zs
The New Yorker piece is pretty terrifying and manages to be so while bending over backwards to present both sides of not maybe even suck up to SV a bit. Certainly no one forced Altman to say on the record that Ice Nine in the water glass was what he had planned for anyone who crossed him, and no one forced pg to say, likewise on the record that “Sam’s real talent is becoming powerful” or something to that effect.

It pretty much goes downhill from there.

replies(4): >>aleph_+pD >>schmid+NW >>dmoy+8Z >>racion+C01
39. benree+Fy[view] [source] 2024-05-18 12:14:57
>>throwa+(OP)
To borrow the catchphrase of one of my favorite hackers ever: “correct”.
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40. KyleOn+zz[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:23:15
>>KyleOn+cy
The people downvoting have never read the Isaacson book obviously.
replies(1): >>treme+4A
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41. treme+4A[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:28:23
>>KyleOn+zz
More like ppl on this site know and respect Jobs for his talent as a revolutionary product manager-style CEO that brought us IPhone and subsequent mobile Era of computing.
replies(2): >>KyleOn+xA >>837204+eG
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42. KyleOn+xA[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:32:05
>>treme+4A
Jobs was a bully through and through.
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43. colibr+yA[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:32:08
>>treme+fy
No, in fact I'm praising Musk for his project management abilities and his ability to take risks.

>"nu uh, it was in scifi first?" Wow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_DC-X

>NASA had taken on the project grudgingly after having been "shamed" by its very public success under the direction of the SDIO.[citation needed] Its continued success was cause for considerable political in-fighting within NASA due to it competing with their "home grown" Lockheed Martin X-33/VentureStar project. Pete Conrad priced a new DC-X at $50 million, cheap by NASA standards, but NASA decided not to rebuild the craft in light of budget constraints

"Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit." - Oscar Wilde

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44. xaPe+TA[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:34:49
>>orland+J6
It didn't take long to drag Elon into this thread. The bitterness and cynicism is unreal.
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45. ekianj+QC[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:53:31
>>Techni+Lq
SpaceX is still the only company with reusable rockets. NASA only dreams about it and cant even make a regular rocket launch on time
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46. Angost+fD[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:57:44
>>treme+Tx
As is repeatedly spamming the same pasta
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47. aleph_+pD[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 12:59:07
>>benree+yy
> The New Yorker piece is pretty terrifying and manages to be so while bending over backwards to present both sides of not maybe even suck up to SV a bit. Certainly no one forced Altman to say on the record that Ice Nine in the water glass was what he had planned for anyone who crossed him, and no one forced pg to say, likewise on the record that “Sam’s real talent is becoming powerful” or something to that effect.

Article: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/10/sam-altmans-ma...

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48. lr1970+9G[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 13:21:17
>>nar001+zs
> Any stories or events you can talk about? It sounds interesting reply

Paul Graham fired Sam Altman from YC on the spot for "loss of trust". Full details unknown.

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49. 837204+eG[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 13:21:40
>>treme+4A
Mobile era of computing would have happened just as much if Jobs had never lived.
replies(1): >>Camper+WS
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50. 837204+zG[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 13:23:41
>>KyleOn+cy
Someone far more deserving of the title, Dennis Ritchie, died a week after Jobs' stupidity caught up with him. So much attention to Jobs who didn't really deserve it, and so little to Dennis Ritchie who made such a profound impact on the tech world and society in general.
replies(1): >>thefau+Kj1
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51. lr1970+AG[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 13:23:46
>>treme+xg
And don't forget StarLink that revolutionized satellite communications.
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52. docmar+gH[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 13:29:05
>>fennec+Cs
If it comes packaged with the constant barrage of ridicule and abuse from others for daring to be slightly wrong about something, nobody may as well talk at all.
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53. johnis+QK[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 13:55:33
>>Loughl+uv
What are you implying here? The answer to the nature vs. nurture debate is "both", see "epigenetics" for more.

When considering the influence of a parent with morally reprehensible behavior, it's important to recognize that the environment a child grows up in can indeed have a profound impact on their development. Children raised in households where unethical behaviors are normalized may adopt some of these behaviors themselves, either through direct imitation or as a response to the emotional and psychological environment. However, it is equally possible for individuals to reject these influences.

Furthermore, while acknowledging the potential impact of a negative upbringing, it is critical to avoid deterministic assumptions about individuals. People are not simply products of their environment; they possess agency and the capacity for change, and we need to realize that not all individuals perceive and respond to environmental stimuli in the same way. Personal experiences, cognitive processes, and emotional responses can lead to different interpretations and reactions to similar environmental conditions. Therefore, while the influence of a parent's actions cannot be dismissed, it is neither fair nor accurate to presume that an individual will inevitably follow in their footsteps.

As for epigenetics: it highlights how environmental factors can influence gene expression, adding a layer of complexity to how we understand the interaction between genes and environment. While the environment can modify gene expression, individuals may exhibit different levels of susceptibility or resistance to these changes based on genetic variability.

replies(1): >>gopher+651
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54. former+DL[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 14:01:25
>>jajko+cn
You’re confusing mommy and daddy issues. Mommy issues is what makes fash control freaks.
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55. deadba+TM[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 14:14:24
>>hacker+xe
It’s “Open” as in “open Pandora’s box”, not “open source”. Always has been.
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56. olalon+2P[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 14:32:13
>>baq+Yp
I'm still finding it difficult to understand how their move away from the non-profit mission was legal. Initially, you assert that you are a mission-driven non-profit, a claim that attracts talent, capital, press, partners, and users. Then, you make a complete turnaround and transform into a for-profit enterprise. Why this isn't considered fraud is beyond me.
replies(1): >>smt88+x21
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57. Walter+sS[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 15:01:17
>>kayceb+An
They are referring to Elon Musk.
replies(1): >>pseuda+sh1
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58. Camper+WS[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 15:05:08
>>837204+eG
To be fair, who else could have gone toe-to-toe with the telecom incumbents? Jobs almost didn't succeed at that.
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59. Walter+4T[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 15:05:43
>>raverb+De
The startup world values transgression of the rules.
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60. postmo+iV[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 15:23:19
>>fennec+Cs
Who designs the training set for your putative "fact checker" AI?
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61. cess11+1W[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 15:28:18
>>treme+fy
What's wrong with weakness? Does it make you feel contempt?
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62. skeete+AW[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 15:33:12
>>smt88+e5
I fear your characterization diminishes the real risk: he's incredibly well resourced, well-connected and intelligent while being utterly divorced from the reality of the majority he threatens. People like him and Peter Thiel are not simple crooks or idiots - they truly believe in their convictions. This is far scarier.
replies(1): >>hot_ce+kd2
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63. schmid+NW[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 15:34:31
>>benree+yy
Holy shit I thought he was just good at networking, but it sounds like we have a psychopath in charge of the AI revolution. Fantastic.
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64. dmoy+8Z[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 15:55:33
>>benree+yy
For anyone else like me who hasn't read Kurt Vonnegut, but does know about different ice states (e.g. Ice IX):

"Ice Nine" is a fictional assassination device that makes you turn into ice after consuming ice (?) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-nine

"Ice IX" (ice nine) is Ice III at a low enough temperature and high enough pressure to be proton-ordered https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phases_of_ice#Known_phases

So here, Sam Altman is stating a death threat.

replies(1): >>spudly+N31
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65. racion+C01[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 16:12:33
>>benree+yy
“Sam is extremely good at becoming powerful” was the quote, which has a distinctly different ring to it. Not that this diminishes from the overall creep factor.
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66. tinyho+Q01[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 16:15:25
>>llamai+wt
Well, if he's a clown then his departure should cause the opposite, no? And you're right, more than 90% of them said we don't want the non-profit BS and openness. We want a unicorn tech company that can make us rich. Good for them.

Disclaimer: I'm Sam's best friend from kindergarten. Just joking, never met the guy and have no interest in openai beyond being a happy customer (who will switch in a heartbeat to the competitors' if they give me a good reason to)

replies(1): >>llamai+i31
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67. smt88+x21[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 16:36:13
>>olalon+2P
My understanding is that there were two corporate entities, one of which was always for-profit.
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68. llamai+i31[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 16:43:27
>>tinyho+Q01
> Well, if he's a clown then his departure should cause the opposite, no?

Nope, not even close to necessarily true.

> more than 90% of them said we don't want the non-profit BS and openness. We want a unicorn tech company that can make us rich. Good for them.

Sure, good for them! Dissolve the company and its charter, give the money back to the investors who invested under that charter, and go raise money for a commercial venture.

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69. spudly+N31[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 16:48:57
>>dmoy+8Z
It's more than just a death threat, the person killed in such a manner would surely generate a human-sized pile of Ice 9, which would pose a much greater threat to humanity than any AGI.

If we're seriously entertaining this off-handed remark as a measure of Altman's true character, it means not only would be willing willing to murder an adversary, but he'd be willing to risk all humanity to do it.

What I take away from this remark is that Altman is a nerd, and I look forward to seeing a shaky cell-phone video of him reciting one of the calypsos of Bokonon while dressed as a cultist at a SciFi convention.

replies(1): >>dmoy+D51
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70. shkkmo+m41[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 16:56:10
>>ben_w+gj
It's hard to guage exactly how much credence to put in that letter due to the gag contracts.

How much was it in support of Altman and how much was in opposition to the extremely poorly explained in board decisions, and how much was pure self interest due to stock options?

I think when a company chooses secrecy, they abandon much of the benefit of the doubt. I don't think there is any basis for absolving Altman.

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71. bookaw+W41[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 17:02:27
>>nar001+zs
The story of the "YC mafia" takeover of Conde Nast era reddit as summarized by ex-ceo Yishan who resigned after tiring of Altman's constant Machiavelli machinations is also hilarious and foreshadowing of future events[0]. I'm sure by the time Altman resigned from the Reddit board OpenAI had long incorporated the entire corpus into ChatGPT already.

At the moment all the engineers at OpenAI, including gdb, who currently have their credibility in tact are nerd-washing Altman's tarnished reputation by staying there. I mentioned this in a comment elsewhere but Peter Hintjens' (ZeroMQ, RIP) book called the "Psychopath Code"[1] is rather on point in this context. He notes that psychopaths are attracted to project groups that have assets and no defenses, i.e. non-profits:

If a group has assets and no defenses, it is inevitable [a psychopath] will invade the group. There is no "if" here. Indeed, you may see several psychopaths striving for advantage...[the psychopath] may be a founder, yet that is rare. If he is a founder, someone else did the hard work. Look for burned-out skeletons in the closet...He may come with grand stories, yet only by his own word. He claims authority from his connections to important people. He spends his time in the group manipulating people against each other. Or, he is absent on important business...His dominance is not earned, yet it is tangible...He breaks the social conventions of the group. Social humans feel fear and anxiety when they do this. This is a dominance mask.

A group of nerds that want to get shit done and work on important problems, who are primed to be optimistic and take what people say to their face at face value, and don't want to waste time with "people problems" are susceptible to these types of characters taking over.

[0] https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/3cs78i/whats_the...

[1]https://hintjens.gitbooks.io/psychopathcode/content/chapter4...

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72. gopher+651[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 17:04:08
>>johnis+QK
> However, it is equally possible for individuals to reject these influences.

The crux of your thesis is a legal point of view, not a scientific one. It's a relic from when Natural Philosophy was new and hip, and fundamentally obviated by leaded gasoline. Discussing free will in a biological context is meaningless because the concept is defined by social coercion. It's the opposite of slavery.

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73. dmoy+D51[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 17:09:16
>>spudly+N31
> the person killed in such a manner would surely generate a human-sized pile of Ice 9, which would pose a much greater threat to humanity than any AGI.

Oh okay, I didn't really grok that implication from my brief scan of the wiki page. Didn't realize it was a cascading all-water-into-Ice-Nine thing.

replies(1): >>pollyt+vc1
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74. progra+x81[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 17:41:01
>>pawelm+7u
From a game theory perspective, it can make sense to punish future generations to prevent someone from YOLO'ing at the end of their life. But that only works if they actually care about their children, so perhaps it should be, "you are less responsible for the sins of your father the more seriously fucked in the head he is."
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75. pollyt+vc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 18:12:16
>>dmoy+D51
just to clarify, in the book it's basically just 'a form of ice that stays ice even when warm'. it was described as an abandoned projected by the military to harden mud for infantry men to cross. just like regular ice crystals, the ice9 crystal pattern 'spreads' across water, but without the need for it to be chilled, eg the body temp water freezes etc, it becomes a 'midas touch' problem to anyone dealing with it.
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76. pseuda+sh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 18:53:18
>>Walter+sS
Saying the other suggested there were 2.
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77. thefau+Kj1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 19:13:46
>>837204+zG
I think Ritchie's influence while significant is overblown and not entirely positive. I am not a fan of Steve Jobs, who had many reprehensible traits, but I find it ridiculous to dismiss his genius. Frankly, I find Jobs's ability to manipulate people more impressive than Ritchie's ability to manipulate machines.
replies(1): >>837204+iG1
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78. xyzzyz+0q1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 20:08:53
>>orland+J6
You are literally repeating false smears about Elon Mask. No emerald mine has ever been owned by anyone in Elon's family, and Elon certainly didn't inherit any of it. I find it very ironic that you are doing this while accusing someone of being a manipulative crook.
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79. 837204+iG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 22:35:27
>>thefau+Kj1
> not entirely positive

I don't know if he was responsible, but null-terminated strings has got to be one of the worst mistakes in computer history.

That said, how is the significance of C and Unix "overblown"?

I agree Jobs was brilliant at manipulating people, I don't agree that that should be celebrated.

replies(1): >>holler+MG1
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80. holler+MG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 22:44:06
>>837204+iG1
The main reason C and Unix became widespread IMHO is not because they were better than the alternatives, but rather because AT&T distributed them with source code at no cost, and their motivation for doing that was not altruistic, but rather the need to obey a judicial decree or an agreement made at the end of an anti-trust court case under which IBM and AT&T were ordered not to enter each other's markets. I.e., AT&T was prohibited from selling computer hardware and software, so when they accidentally found themselves to be owners of some software that some universities and research labs wanted to use, they gave it away.

C and Unix weren't and aren't bad, but they are overestimated in comments on this site a lot. They weren't masterpieces. The Mac was a masterpiece IMHO. Credit for the Mac goes to Xerox PARC and to Engelbart's lab at Stanford Research Institute, but also to Jobs for recognizing the value of the work and leading the first implementation of it available to a large fraction of the population.

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81. hot_ce+kd2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-19 06:35:37
>>skeete+AW
how does one divorce the belief that technology can be a force for good from the reality that the gatekeepers are so committed to being the most evil they can be
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82. kmeist+E93[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-19 17:24:37
>>pawelm+7u
This is a great sentiment in theory. But it assumes that the child is actually interested in rejecting those sins - and accepting the economic consequences of equality (e.g. them not being filthy stinking rich).

In practice most rich people spoil the shit out of their kids and they wind up being even more fucked in the head than their parents.

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