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1. indymi+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-01-24 17:25:53
I'm completely ok with the police asking me for video from my doorbell. I'm not ok with the police using the third party doctrine and asking the hosting service for my video without asking me. That video is every bit my property as the files in my desk drawer and should be subject to the same protections.
replies(7): >>ses198+26 >>smolde+C7 >>cameld+s9 >>bastar+O9 >>JohnFe+X9 >>_heimd+Nc >>theman+jg1
2. ses198+26[view] [source] 2024-01-24 17:50:24
>>indymi+(OP)
Pretty sure if you read the fine print that video is not your property, but even if it was, how can you enforce that if it’s not on your own servers?
replies(3): >>FireBe+m8 >>mlyle+Y9 >>kansfa+oa
3. smolde+C7[view] [source] 2024-01-24 17:56:56
>>indymi+(OP)
It's a mistake to trust a cloud service with your data and expect no one to take advantage of the fact that they are the ones holding it.
replies(4): >>mlyle+J9 >>Spivak+Q9 >>goodSt+R9 >>indymi+dk
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4. FireBe+m8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 17:59:37
>>ses198+26
Which in itself blows my mind. Imagine if Canon told me the pictures taken with my camera were not my property.
replies(2): >>graeme+lh >>ses198+au3
5. cameld+s9[view] [source] 2024-01-24 18:03:57
>>indymi+(OP)
My understanding is that even though you view it as your property, according to the patriot act, it’s a “business record” of the provider and subject to disclosure without a warrant.
replies(3): >>indymi+td >>2OEH8e+4l >>mardif+7L
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6. mlyle+J9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:05:01
>>smolde+C7
Yah, that's not the problem he's referencing.

He's referencing that we have early 20th and late 19th century case law about third parties holding documents, etc, that is used to make everything sitting at a cloud service subject to subpoena without a warrant (email, etc, too).

There's all kinds of precedent that was based on sane tradeoffs for the 1800's that doesn't make sense anymore with the more complicated ways we transact and interact and with the ability of technology to commit mass surveillance.

replies(2): >>goodSt+ma >>smolde+wa
7. bastar+O9[view] [source] 2024-01-24 18:05:21
>>indymi+(OP)
I agree with the sentiment, but in this case you just licensed software, you don't own the bits, the service, the components, or the video. Those files were never in your desk drawer, they've always been in amazon's desk drawer. While this is a step in the right direction, I would look to an RTSP doorbell if you're concerned.
replies(1): >>tomwhe+pj
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8. Spivak+Q9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:05:25
>>smolde+C7
This is true only because our laws allow such a thing. The 3rd party doctrine is something that should be heavily restricted to encapsulate people's reasonable expectation of privacy for hosted services. The least of which for our industry because as it stands it requires wasteful work to add unnecessary security just to play legal games and hurts our ability to sell products that store people's sensitive data.
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9. goodSt+R9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:05:27
>>smolde+C7
If the so-called liberal Western regimes respected privacy rights they way they claim to it would be perfectly reasonable to trust a cloud provider with your data.
replies(2): >>indymi+Zj >>itisha+Zl
10. JohnFe+X9[view] [source] 2024-01-24 18:05:58
>>indymi+(OP)
I think it's important to consider any data being held on someone else's server as being effectively publicly available. That's one of the main reasons why I don't use cloud services and would never use a device that required someone else's server to hold or process sensitive data.
replies(1): >>tlb+ba
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11. mlyle+Y9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:06:02
>>ses198+26
He's not asking about how to enforce it, I don't think.

He's wishing that things like your e-mail, videos in the cloud, etc, required a warrant for the police to search, instead of just a subpoena to a third party.

The article falsely implies that a warrant is required, but in practice police can just subpoena the information.

replies(2): >>indymi+Nd >>ses198+3s3
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12. tlb+ba[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:06:52
>>JohnFe+X9
Do you have some recommended devices that follow that rule?
replies(1): >>JohnFe+Lo
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13. goodSt+ma[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:07:36
>>mlyle+J9
But if Western countries really had liberal principles of democracy and freedom why do we not already have these protections?
replies(3): >>mlyle+Db >>graeme+Ig >>scrps+zs
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14. kansfa+oa[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:07:41
>>ses198+26
Encryption. Anyone org than can side step it doesn't matter anyway.
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15. smolde+wa[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:08:14
>>mlyle+J9
Yeah, I'm familiar with 3rd party doctrine and not a fan, myself.
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16. mlyle+Db[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:13:32
>>goodSt+ma
Because slow moving legal precedent and interpretation of constitutional documents is important. But sometimes, underlying facts change in ways that break the analogies used in past reasoning, and we need to catch up.

The problem has only been super significant for 15-20 years, which is a blink of an eye in this sense; not even enough time for the populace to really understand and appreciate the issue.

It is, of course, still broken.

replies(1): >>goodSt+zg
17. _heimd+Nc[view] [source] 2024-01-24 18:20:39
>>indymi+(OP)
We'd be much better off as a society if more of our governing systems were voluntary. That's no silver bullet for sure, but it would go pretty damn far.

One of the more ridiculous examples I have come across, unpasteurized milk. In the US, as well as Canada and other western countries I believe, it is illegal to sell raw milk for human consumption. Meaning that if I have a neighbor with a milk cow, I can't buy a gallon of milk from them to drink or cook with. Stores can obviously do what they want, and requiring FDA certification for example would effectively block raw milk from stores. But why can't I choose to ignore FDA guidelines meant for industrial milk production and just buy a damn gallon of milk from a local farm?

replies(1): >>patmor+nF
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18. indymi+td[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:23:12
>>cameld+s9
This is unconstitutional and needs to stop.
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19. indymi+Nd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:24:11
>>mlyle+Y9
They don’t even have to subpoena they can just ask.
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20. goodSt+zg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:36:57
>>mlyle+Db
Right but why should “the populace” even need to be aware of the problem? If the people with political power believe in these principles themselves shouldn't they just draft some new legislation to fix it? When Russia invaded Ukraine our leaders jumped into action to help them defend their country even on another continent, but when what is supposedly one of the founding principles of the US is totally broken you think its consistent with the assumption that our leaders share these values with us for them to drag their feet for multiple decades?
replies(1): >>mlyle+Cp
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21. graeme+Ig[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:37:31
>>goodSt+ma
I think we are moving away from some of those principles, particularly with regard to privacy and the balance between individual rights vs society/government.

Attitudes have changed a lot.There is an episode of Yes Minister where the minister does not want to push a shared govt database law because of privacy concerns. Another where the idea of ID cards is called political suicide. Absolutely true at the time, but the former is happening, and the latter is still not with us the UK but its no longer unacceptable to push the idea.

Kids are growing up expecting to be tracked (a lot of parents use "apps" to track what their kids do) so it will become even more normalised. People are used to being tracked as the tradeoff for map apps. There is a lot of surveillance anyway (CCTV and face recognition, number plate recognition, paying by card) so its already normal

replies(1): >>goodSt+QD
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22. graeme+lh[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:40:09
>>FireBe+m8
At one point one of the big camera manufacturers tried using DRM to force use of their software to process image. I cannot recall when one or exactly what the restrictions were. I think it was with RAW image.
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23. tomwhe+pj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:49:55
>>bastar+O9
> I would look to an RTSP doorbell if you're concerned

The problem is that the market success of products from Ring and similar companies have obliterated the market for DIY systems, so the few RTSP doorbells that exist aren't very good.

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24. indymi+Zj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:52:29
>>goodSt+R9
Technology moves faster than law, so we’re seeing areas where the existing precedent, such as the “Third Party Doctrine,” just doesn’t work well when I’m renting server space (all SaaS is this way) for much of what would have been personal property and papers. The nice thing about Western democracies is that they evolve over time and generally get better. In the US things are changing as judges are forced to review decisions and laws are changed as both judges and representatives start to understand new tech. It takes time.
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25. indymi+dk[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:53:32
>>smolde+C7
> It's a mistake to trust a cloud service with your data

Eventually, this has to change for the better. Right now, users don't understand/don't care...

replies(1): >>Firmwa+Qn
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26. 2OEH8e+4l[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 18:58:49
>>cameld+s9
Could you cite a source for that claim please? This is the first that I'm hearing this.
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27. itisha+Zl[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 19:02:25
>>goodSt+R9
I think I'm not understanding your point. GDPR seems to be the current gold standard for privacy at the moment. Are there any similar policies in non-western nations to speak of?
replies(1): >>goodSt+MB
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28. Firmwa+Qn[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 19:13:47
>>indymi+dk
>Eventually, this has to change for the better.

How? Things don't magically get better "eventually" just because we wish for them to. Things change if rich and powerful people push for them or if millions of little people revolt about it in order to impact the elected leaders, otherwise everything stays the same or gets worse.

Currently the rich and powerful are not on your side on this, and the little people care more about putting food on the table and making rent rather than who gets to access their cloud storage.

>Right now, users don't understand/don't care...

Nor will they anytime soon if what happened after Snowden (nothing) is anything to go by.

replies(1): >>indymi+kI2
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29. JohnFe+Lo[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 19:18:37
>>tlb+ba
For doorbell cameras specifically? No, it's not a product category that I'm interested in and so haven't looked into it. For surveillance cameras generally, the market is full of non-cloudy ones. It's hard to give recommendations without knowing what your needs are, and even then I'd hesitate because I don't maintain a mental list of what's current on the market.

I know that's not helpful, and I'm sorry. My process is to research options when the time comes that I am actively trying to solve a problem and just buy the one that fits best. For surveillance cameras, for me, this means "dumb" ones that I feed into a control unit that manages multiple cameras and applies any smarts I may want.

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30. mlyle+Cp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 19:23:21
>>goodSt+zg
Legislation doesn't affect the interpretation of the constitution.

And in this case, judicial precedent follows evolving (both popular and legal) ideas of what the words in the constitution mean.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures..."

"Persons, houses, papers, and effects" has been interpreted in terms of what things a person had, excluding things that they had given someone else to hold. It was a pretty reasonable interpretation and compromise, until it was the governing case law that covered the cloud.

replies(1): >>goodSt+uC
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31. scrps+zs[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 19:40:04
>>goodSt+ma
Is there a country or a system of government that doesn't have this class of problems? I sure can't find one and I've been to quite a few.
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32. goodSt+MB[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 20:33:31
>>itisha+Zl
How is what non-western countries do relevant to the question of if western governments actually practice the values they claim to hold?
replies(1): >>itisha+7U
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33. goodSt+uC[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 20:37:11
>>mlyle+Cp
> Legislation doesn't affect the interpretation of the constitution.

Legislation can limit what Federal agents are allowed to do totally irrespectively of whether those things would separately violate the constitution.

replies(1): >>mlyle+GC
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34. mlyle+GC[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 20:39:19
>>goodSt+uC
Sure, but we're not really talking about federal agents for the most part. We're talking about local police forces in states sending subpoenas to Ring.
replies(1): >>goodSt+9a3
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35. goodSt+QD[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 20:46:41
>>graeme+Ig
If western leaders today believed in individual rights they could ban facial recognition, license plate readers and require businesses to take cash right now. Why do you think they don’t?
replies(1): >>graeme+692
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36. patmor+nF[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 20:54:54
>>_heimd+Nc
We have pasteurization for a reason mate. Raw milk goes bad pretty quickly, even in our modern, cleaner farm system. 3 day old raw milk, even if kept perfectly chilled can be deadly.
replies(1): >>_heimd+HZ
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37. mardif+7L[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 21:31:37
>>cameld+s9
Wasn't most of the patriot act left to expire by the trump administration back in 2020? Were those parts ever renewed since?
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38. itisha+7U[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 22:27:02
>>goodSt+MB
You're making this out to be a western problem, but I suspect it's actually a general human thing. Actually, I have a hunch that the west has made more progress here than anywhere else, and I'm curious if anyone disagrees.
replies(1): >>goodSt+ge1
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39. _heimd+HZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-24 22:57:37
>>patmor+nF
Have you actually tested this?

We have dairy cows these days. Raw milk straight from the cow takes an extremely long time to actually spoil in a dangerous sense. If left out it will sour and eventually separate, while it isn't usually what a person would want to eat it isn't dangerous. It absolutely doesn't go bad in a fridge, we've had jars in the fridge for weeks with absolutely no problem.

3 day old, unrefrigerated pasteurized milk is absolutely dangerous, don't drink it. Pasteurization of milk became commonplace as a solution for shipping milk long distances and storing it in warehouses for days or weeks. If pasteurized and managed properly the flavor won't changed. Raw milk will effectively ferment at room temp as the lactic acid bacteria begins to consume lactose. The byproducts aren't dangerous and are effectively the curds and whey that Little Miss Muffet told us all about, that's just not what you want to find in a jug of milk at the store.

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40. goodSt+ge1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-25 00:36:47
>>itisha+7U
I doubt anyone would disagree with that statement. Would you agree that the actions of western leaders reveal their liberalism is superficial?
replies(1): >>itisha+Xw1
41. theman+jg1[view] [source] 2024-01-25 00:55:00
>>indymi+(OP)
Is it even <your> video?

After reading the product description on Amazon, it looks like it is the hardware that you need to buy in order to use Amazon's doorbell and monitoring service.

See: In order to view "your" video history, you must subscribe to the Amazon Protect plan.

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42. itisha+Xw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-25 03:12:50
>>goodSt+ge1
Somewhat, sure. They certainly haven't achieved 100% of the liberal ideal. But if they're currently setting the bar for policy in this regard, can it be entirely superficial?
replies(1): >>goodSt+ac3
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43. graeme+692[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-25 10:48:09
>>goodSt+QD
Because politicians and bureaucrats want to centralise power. They may very well sincerely believe they need that power for everyone's good.

Someone goes into politics because they want the power to run things.

Bureaucrats and agencies of the government want the power to run things for similar reasons, and it makes their jobs easier. Will the police ever say they do not want more powers to investigate crimes, or catch criminals? Will social services either? There are all kinds of things that can be better enforced with more information.

On top of all that they are part of the same cultural change that puts a lower value on individual liberties. It means politicians are a lot less inclined to refuse. There has also been a political drift to following expert advice with less scepticism, and the experts on these issues are the police, intelligence agencies, etc.

One cause close to my heart is that in the UK a number of local authorities keep hassling home educators (trying to bully them into sending their kids to school) even though their kids tend to do better than school going kids (their are studies showing better outcomes) because it seems inconceivable to them that people can do a better job than they do. I know people affected by this. A lot of them are utterly opposed to the idea that parents can make this decision at all.

replies(1): >>goodSt+wa3
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44. indymi+kI2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-25 15:15:57
>>Firmwa+Qn
> rich and powerful people push for them or if millions of little people revolt about it

You'd be surprised how easy it is to get time one one-on-one with a congressperson/senator and their entire legislative team. My strategy is simple, I just call and ask if I can stop by and say hi for 20 minutes or so. If you get 10 minutes, you are doing as well as most lobbyists. If you do get a meeting be nice, even if you disagree with the Senator. Your not going to debate them into changing their vote. But... if you share engaging and emotional stories, especially about people back in the home district, you might just get what you need. Also, be ready for this question: "What's your ask?" That is where you can be really direct: "I'd love it if we could get ___ passed, or It would be really good for the home district if ____ didn't pass." Have a quick story answer for why: "so people like ___ don't have to close ____ on ___ st in home city." Schedule around meals - a lot of time the legislator will go to lunch (and pay for yours) just to avoid another hour with legislators and negotiators.

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45. goodSt+9a3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-25 17:31:26
>>mlyle+GC
I cant believe you are making me say this but…

s/federal agents/local police/g

replies(1): >>mlyle+Dg3
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46. goodSt+wa3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-25 17:33:51
>>graeme+692
>politicians and bureaucrats want to centralise power. They may very well sincerely believe they need that power for everyone's good.

So you admit they are not actually liberals and when they say they are they are incorrect.

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47. goodSt+ac3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-25 17:43:16
>>itisha+Xw1
Yes and it is. If they actually believed in libety or democracy they wouldnt drag their feet like this and be content with merely bei g “more liberal” than your standard dictatorship.
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48. mlyle+Dg3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-25 18:08:37
>>goodSt+9a3
Federal law's ability to enjoin local police activity is limited.

And in any case: the law is a blunt instrument. It's (usually) better as a slowly changing representation of conventions and social consensus instead of something that we make sweeping changes in (whether legislatively or judicially).

replies(1): >>goodSt+oK6
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49. ses198+3s3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-25 18:49:23
>>mlyle+Y9
If you don’t have a way to enforce it then you pretty much have to assume that law enforcement will come after it sooner or later.
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50. ses198+au3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-25 18:55:29
>>FireBe+m8
The canon camera is self sufficient writing to your memory card. The ring doorbell is functionally useless without the server side components (afaik, I could be wrong). The whole issue arises because the video isn’t stored on your own servers.

Those server side components provide a lot of value and that’s why people choose to buy those products, as opposed to similar products that are just dumb wifi cameras.

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51. goodSt+oK6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-26 18:17:51
>>mlyle+Dg3
What limits it?
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