zlacker

[parent] [thread] 115 comments
1. Taylor+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-09-27 00:51:11
This enshittifcation is endemic. Corporations cannot just release a good product and support it. The better the product is and the larger the customer base becomes, the higher the likelihood that some business planner is going to see dollar signs and try to squeeze the product for everything it’s worth. And every time this ruins the product. And we’re here with a proprietary phone OS and proprietary apps. Proprietary firmwares on proprietary hardware. And we are completely at the whim of these companies.

And the option is what, buy a Zigbee dongle and a raspberry pi run some code written by unpaid enthusiasts? 3D print a case for it and mount it on the wall, running updates and fixing it ever few months when some package update breaks it?

I like the concept of lights that run from an app. I don’t have any of the physical Hue switches for my system and it’s fine. But I do not want an app that abuses me, and I do not want to maintain some fragile project made from slapped together code. I want robust open hardware with open source software.

I’m convinced that we can achieve this, but it won’t be with the current model of business and engineering we have today.

replies(16): >>Flammy+K >>nine_z+I1 >>tedivm+c2 >>mostly+K2 >>n0zmer+c3 >>TylerE+d3 >>redox9+l3 >>dzdt+o4 >>arthur+A6 >>solard+w7 >>User23+99 >>22289d+oa >>GuB-42+hb >>menset+Ed >>JumpCr+sh >>nine_k+Ah
2. Flammy+K[view] [source] 2023-09-27 00:56:13
>>Taylor+(OP)
I agree with this.

I intentionally buy switches not bulbs or more complex gear. Then you plug your dirt cheap LED dumb bulb into the lamp and have it turn on and off with your voice. Much cheaper to replace when the bulb eventually burns too.

Its stupid simple, just make sure everything connects to your assistant of choice (Hey Google / Alexa / Siri - maybe?) OR just stay in one company's walled garden and you're fine. Personally I'm a fan of Wyze's hardware but don't use their apps or more complex cameras.

replies(3): >>inetkn+51 >>fragme+h1 >>m-p-3+M8
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3. inetkn+51[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 00:58:04
>>Flammy+K
> OR just stay in one company's walled garden and you're fine

Google wants to have a word with you about some of the products it's sold and quickly killed.

replies(2): >>twism+O2 >>Flammy+Uq
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4. fragme+h1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 00:58:56
>>Flammy+K
How do you get color and dimming features with that setup?
replies(2): >>twism+p3 >>Flammy+vr
5. nine_z+I1[view] [source] 2023-09-27 01:01:17
>>Taylor+(OP)
I observed this enshittification happen at my tech company. When we were smaller, the C-Suite bent over backwards to keep the product good and sane.

Then they went public. This attracted a lot of new managers and ladder hoppers.

As a public company, the board, the C-Suite, the immense layers of management all were incentivized to boost stock prices to boost their own compensation.

They did this ethically during the low interest rate environment. But with higher interest rates, the only way to maintain growth is via scummy nickel and diming.

So execs and all the management layers do nothing but enshittify the product so that the gravy train can continue for at least a few more quarters.

Thus, customers are left hanging with shitty products.

Imo, the solution is to never buy long-term subscriptions from public companies with listed stocks, if possible.

replies(3): >>lazide+s2 >>epicur+v3 >>bloqs+54
6. tedivm+c2[view] [source] 2023-09-27 01:03:59
>>Taylor+(OP)
The Home Assistant team has a full company behind them, and they sell cloud services for the app for people who want it. Zigbee2MQTT has 113 sponsors. If you run them both with docker then updating is pretty simple with no package breaks.

I do get your point though. Fixing the lack of a privacy focused option that works well for people who aren't familiar with systems administration would be nice.

replies(4): >>uptown+75 >>vdqtp3+y6 >>Phrodo+fd >>hacker+Wg
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7. lazide+s2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:06:12
>>nine_z+I1
If you think public companies are bad, wait until you look at the track record of companies bought by private equity or hedge funds. :s
8. mostly+K2[view] [source] 2023-09-27 01:07:57
>>Taylor+(OP)
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Philips' revenue was ~20 billion last year. Why must these people shit all over everything to squeeze out even more on top of that?

Where are all of the businesses with values that put humans first? Is it just necessary to be so ruthlessly destructive to make it at all?

replies(6): >>Negati+f3 >>wrycod+H3 >>advent+K3 >>mardif+G8 >>AlotOf+p9 >>suppor+7i
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9. twism+O2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:08:03
>>inetkn+51
yeah i've been in the google/nest garden for years ... yes the dual apps are weird and that's probably because Google Home does too much already that they had to keep the Nest app but nothing has stopped working for me nor gotten any emails telling me they are sunsetting something.
replies(2): >>eigen+G5 >>faerie+Uf
10. n0zmer+c3[view] [source] 2023-09-27 01:10:52
>>Taylor+(OP)
Unfortunately, you, I and probably most people here are the outliers. The enshitification happens because 90% of consumers can't live without their things and will repeated hand companies money over and over while they deliver less and less.
11. TylerE+d3[view] [source] 2023-09-27 01:10:59
>>Taylor+(OP)
I’ve got a number (~12) KASA products that I’m pretty happy with. Yes, they’re cloud-based, but you can turn that off after initial setup and use them directly over Wi-Fi.

That’s the other (mostly) good thing about… they’re Wi-Fi native and don’t use any sort of hub.

Their iOS app is reasonably decent, and there are honesceeen widgets.

Easy to build fairly advanced automations… for instance I have a rule that turns my bedside fan off and turns the bedroom lights on that runs 5 minutes before my alarm goes off, weekdays only.

Most of what I use are their bulbs, which are both relatively cheap ($30 for a 4 pack), with excellent CRI, variable color temp (including a nightshirt style automation that goes whiter during the day, and both warmer and dimmer at night), and full RGB color.

I probably wouldn’t recommend them for a whole home setup (you’d need pretty serious Wi-Fi routers) but for a case like mine where I’m only using it in a few rooms, it’s great.

replies(3): >>nunez+e5 >>dervjd+T7 >>Fatnin+2c
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12. Negati+f3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:11:13
>>mostly+K2
Duty to shareholders or whatever the standard excuse is.
replies(1): >>ncalla+b4
13. redox9+l3[view] [source] 2023-09-27 01:12:14
>>Taylor+(OP)
The problem is investors. Investors don't care about a sustainable business. They want infinite growth, and sucking dry both the the customers and the business itself.
replies(1): >>tlrobi+W4
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14. twism+p3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:12:33
>>fragme+h1
wyze color bulbs works with Google Home and supports everything the app supports
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15. epicur+v3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:13:23
>>nine_z+I1
> But with higher interest rates, the only way to maintain growth is via scummy nickel and diming.

Or they could just charge more for new bulbs as the bulbs burn out. Why ruin the user experience? Just charge me an extra dollar and move on.

replies(1): >>nine_z+W3
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16. wrycod+H3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:14:54
>>mostly+K2
It’s not just that.

Philips’ “managers” are screwing up many of their historic product lines and then discontinuing them when the margins go negative.

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17. advent+K3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:15:15
>>mostly+K2
HN is filled full of money and well-connected engineers.

There are hundreds of people on this site that can begin creating a competing company/product line starting tomorrow if they care to.

It's exceptionally difficult, expensive, with a high risk of failure. And it'll properly take years of your life even if it fails. No small order for sure.

> Where are all of the businesses with values that put humans first?

A lot of them start out that way, while they're still founder owned/controlled. The enshittification is a market opening, if someone dares to pursue it.

replies(1): >>LeafIt+E7
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18. nine_z+W3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:16:18
>>epicur+v3
> Why ruin the user experience? Just charge me an extra dollar and move on.

That's risking losing you as a customer. Turns out, a lot of customers think our services are already too expensive.

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19. bloqs+54[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:17:51
>>nine_z+I1
Why would interest rates be the factor here? Some of the highest interest rates historically was during the time that some of the best, most reliable products were born?
replies(2): >>nine_z+E4 >>otterl+m6
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20. ncalla+b4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:18:28
>>Negati+f3
That’s a lie that the execs tell. Yes, they do have a duty to the shareholders, but the lie is that they are allowed to exercise their reasonable business judgement, which actually gives them very broad latitude to determine what’s in the shareholders interest.

The execs could easily argue that in their business judgement it’s in the shareholders best interests if they make a long term play, and chose to forego maximizing profits in the short term, and instead maintain positive customer goodwill in the interests of maximizing profits over a longer time span.

As long as they can provide some plausible reasoning behind their decision, they’re safe.

So, the “I have to maximize shareholder value” argument is… on the surface true, but hides a ton of autonomy and decision making power that the executives have.

replies(1): >>ChrisM+F7
21. dzdt+o4[view] [source] 2023-09-27 01:19:18
>>Taylor+(OP)
The alternative is government standards. You have power outlets you can interchangeably plug different appliances into. Why? Standards. Let there be a standard for color-controllable light sources that ensures interoperability of components, and then there will be competition to hit price-vs-shittiness balances suiting multiple parties.
replies(5): >>akira2+Q5 >>the_op+i7 >>clnq+Ga >>achate+Va >>anon-3+pd
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22. nine_z+E4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:20:50
>>bloqs+54
> Why would interest rates be the factor here?

The projected growth of revenue is not likely to materialize with higher interest rates. Investors will not invest in the stock as compared to the risk free 5% from US treasuries. So the stock will likely not grow any longer. More likely to flatline or collapse.

This makes the paper billionaire CEO a mere hundred millionaire, which is unacceptable.

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23. tlrobi+W4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:22:36
>>redox9+l3
The problem is also your fellow consumers, most of whom don’t actually care about the things us nerds care about.
replies(1): >>autoex+C7
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24. uptown+75[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:23:40
>>tedivm+c2
“If you run them both with docker then updating is pretty simple with no package breaks.”

Do you realize how insane this sounds for non-technical people who want to turn on a light in their livingroom?

replies(3): >>koolba+w5 >>faddyp+tc >>arsome+Mh
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25. nunez+e5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:24:23
>>TylerE+d3
Love my Kasa products. API is actively maintained and works super well. Products themselves work great. Their colored bulbs can emit a ton of colors and support scenes. Not as bright as I'd like, though.

You don't need the app if you're using Home Assistant, py-Kasa or something like that since the devices create their own WiFi network on first boot and you can program them from there.

I run 30+ Wi-Fi bulbs on an eero mesh. These devices are noisy but they are responsive (slower than zigbee). Only disadvantage is that they live or die by DHCP. If they can't renew their lease, it can take a while for them to come back online.

replies(1): >>TylerE+t7
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26. koolba+w5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:26:50
>>uptown+75
Your grandma doesn’t know how to run containers as k8s services?

Don’t tell me she still manually SSHes to each box to run the apps in the background using nohup?!

replies(2): >>philis+o6 >>adolph+Ma
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27. eigen+G5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:27:25
>>twism+O2
back in April, Google announced cancellation of several home products. dont know if they sent an email but they have a blog post.

> starting April 8, 2024 support will stop for Nest Secure

> stop support for Dropcam starting April 8, 2024.

> we will officially end Works with Nest as of September 29, 2023.

https://www.googlenestcommunity.com/t5/Blog/An-update-for-ou...

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28. akira2+Q5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:29:15
>>dzdt+o4
The national electrical code is a private standard. Many local laws directly reference it, but it's not created nor maintained by the government in any way. These standards often come about by simply recognizing the most popular solution and then codifying it.

The government is not better at this than the market.

replies(1): >>germin+I7
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29. otterl+m6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:32:29
>>bloqs+54
You have to work even harder to attract investors in a high-interest-rate environment. Equity and bond returns must beat safe investments like Treasurys, or no one will invest in them.
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30. philis+o6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:32:34
>>koolba+w5
Grandma's still rocking the automation through the power lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm33KB2Th9M&t=680s

replies(1): >>sooper+Oc
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31. vdqtp3+y6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:33:21
>>tedivm+c2
> If you run them both with docker then updating is pretty simple with no package breaks.

This is a lie.

replies(1): >>bandya+ob
32. arthur+A6[view] [source] 2023-09-27 01:33:43
>>Taylor+(OP)
>The better the product is and the larger the customer base becomes, the higher >the likelihood that some business planner is going to see dollar signs and try to >squeeze the product for everything it’s worth

Absolutely true. The more successful they are, the more likely they'll abuse their influence

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33. the_op+i7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:37:06
>>dzdt+o4
Before concluding that the NHS health record is the only option, you should consider industry standards like USB, which in some cases have worked well. We must have a failure-and-improvement cycle in case the standard is bad and fundamentally doesn’t work. We forgo that cycle when the government takes up the cause, even worse yet when the regulators are captured by some collusive fiend.
replies(2): >>taneq+K9 >>hacker+Pg
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34. TylerE+t7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:38:23
>>nunez+e5
The one thing I really wish they could do colorwise is the classic "submarine dark red so it doesn't ruin your night vision" thing. The red really doesn't get deeper past a fairly modest point, it just gets dimmer.
35. solard+w7[view] [source] 2023-09-27 01:38:47
>>Taylor+(OP)
Just don't buy this stuff. A regular hand-operated light switch works fine and costs like 50 cents.
replies(1): >>autoex+M7
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36. autoex+C7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:39:20
>>tlrobi+W4
They do care about getting screwed over. In my experience though they forget about it pretty fast and/or just feel overwhelmed and powerless about the situation. Maybe they'll avoid a specific brand after a bad experience, but they won't be checking over specs or considering requirements for the next thing they buy that rips them off.
replies(1): >>hacker+hh
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37. LeafIt+E7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:39:45
>>advent+K3
Not only that, there are many of us that are contributing to the problem and are willing to hand wave it away because of the pay and the freedom that comes with it.

(Not you and me, though, we have principles, right?)

replies(1): >>hacker+qh
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38. ChrisM+F7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:39:51
>>ncalla+b4
About ten years ago, an activist investor tried to get Apple to reduce their green stance, in favor of profit. They wanted Apple to commit to only working for profit and shareholder return.

Tim Cook got visibly angry at them, and told them that it was a core principle, and there was no way that Apple would compromise on it.

Say what you will about him, but he has personal reasons for valuing privacy, and he knows that compromising one core principle, in favor of profit, will inevitably lead to compromising customer information.

Looks like he made the right call. Apple is closing in on $3T.

replies(1): >>no_wiz+Ja
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39. germin+I7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:40:10
>>akira2+Q5
It’s not the market that is enforcing those codes, and without enforcement - rules are just suggestions.
replies(1): >>akira2+J9
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40. autoex+M7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:40:32
>>solard+w7
My rule is to never buy hardware that needs an app to function. It's never once let me down.
replies(1): >>hnrepo+Fd
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41. dervjd+T7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:41:19
>>TylerE+d3
Agree that the Kasa app is great, but the QC on their hardware is lacking. I bought a four pack, and two of them just refuse to stay connected to my Unifi 6 Pro access points. After a day or two they drop connection and won't reconnect until you unplug/replug them. Timers, etc all stop working and they get stuck in whatever state they were in - even the button on the plug doesn't work.

Zigbee/Z-Wave plugs have been rock solid reliable.

replies(1): >>florbo+Bc
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42. mardif+G8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:46:29
>>mostly+K2
Does Philips the main corporation still own Phillips hue? I thought they sold off the brand or at least the rights to the brand?
replies(1): >>User23+q9
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43. m-p-3+M8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:47:10
>>Flammy+K
Easier to keep in sync in the physical and virtual world, plus you don't lose connection if you turn off the switch like a smart bulb.
44. User23+99[view] [source] 2023-09-27 01:49:33
>>Taylor+(OP)
Also, who ever made staff, let alone principal, by saying “yeah this product is basically perfect let’s just maintain it?”
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45. AlotOf+p9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:50:52
>>mostly+K2
Philips doesn't make lightbulbs, only healthcare products now. The lighting brand was spun out into a new company called Signify [0] several years ago as part of Philips' persistent goal to divest themselves of anything that could be considered remotely innovative or forward thinking.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signify_N.V.

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46. User23+q9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:51:03
>>mardif+G8
Philips spins off subsidiaries like a spider does webs. It’s been a while but last I knew they were basically NL’s biggest startup incubator.
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47. akira2+J9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:53:19
>>germin+I7
Of course it is. Try buying insurance on a house that didn't get a building permit. Try reselling it. And how, exactly, does the government "enforce" the code? Are you put in jail for not following it?
replies(4): >>mr_toa+mb >>germin+Cb >>mlucie+Qc >>dclowd+4h
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48. taneq+K9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:53:27
>>the_op+i7
USB is now a pile of incompatible standards in a trench coat, holding hands with a menagerie of incompatible connectors in another trench coat, all wrapped in a third larger trench coat and claiming to be a single universal standard.
replies(3): >>bernie+Xa >>debate+7d >>dghlsa+od
49. 22289d+oa[view] [source] 2023-09-27 01:57:53
>>Taylor+(OP)
If we funded you to build it and it worked, do you know what you'd do?

The exact same thing you're complaining about :)

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50. clnq+Ga[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:00:26
>>dzdt+o4
> The alternative is government standards

The alternative could be investors investing their capital responsibly, in companies with competent C-suites. That would be a nice trend to see. And I have some hope we might.

Actual reputable engineers leading engineering companies, doctors leading medical start-ups, career drivers leading car manufacturers, and so on. That is sustainable. I don’t get the infatuation investors have with the business class where even the most incompetent CEO with experience is often preferred to real competence of a specialist. That experience is available (and much cheaper!) through consulting contracts.

Investing in enshittification schemes is known in some circles as “shitting where you eat”, pardon the strong idiom. It harms the industry they’re trying to exploit for profit. It’s not only parasitic, but self-destructive.

replies(4): >>jjoona+Fc >>drekip+Jc >>cowsan+Kc >>Bizarr+cd
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51. no_wiz+Ja[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:00:37
>>ChrisM+F7
Tim Cook also acted from a place of strength. That was one investor, and Apple was (and still is) rolling in more money than it quite literally knows what to do with.

I wonder if Tim Cook could get away with it if margins were slimmer, and Apple wasn't the most ludicrous cash making machine since Standard Oil.

Thats my worry, when Apple (and they very well may, who knows) takes a dive, eventually, at some point in the future, will they start selling off the farm?

replies(1): >>ncalla+NG
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52. adolph+Ma[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:01:06
>>koolba+w5
Granny’s got Ansible, been treating em like a herd since way back using ssh.
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53. achate+Va[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:01:37
>>dzdt+o4
That's basically what the Matter specification is.
replies(1): >>pressb+xh
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54. bernie+Xa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:01:59
>>taneq+K9
Yeah, I was going to say the same, just not as creatively.

USB is not the poster child for successful industry-led standards.

replies(2): >>Jamiso+ze >>addict+vh
55. GuB-42+hb[view] [source] 2023-09-27 02:03:51
>>Taylor+(OP)
For once, it is not enshittification. Home automation has always been shit.

We talked about it when I was a student, more than 20 years ago, and it was always he same story: attempts at vendor lock down, a lack of standards, potential customers unconvinced.

Sometimes, exceptionally, something not too bad comes out, but it never lasts. I ended up installing regular light bulbs with regular light switches connected to the breaker panel.

replies(1): >>Taylor+nA
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56. mr_toa+mb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:04:07
>>akira2+J9
I don’t know about the US but in many countries if a building can’t be brought up to code it will be condemned.
replies(1): >>cowsan+6d
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57. bandya+ob[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:04:09
>>vdqtp3+y6
> This is a lie.

Is it possible that it’s simply incorrect? There’s a difference.

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58. germin+Cb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:05:53
>>akira2+J9
The government - that supplies that building permit - does also literally send an inspector to my property to enforce the code, yes.
replies(1): >>pdonis+nf
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59. Fatnin+2c[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:08:00
>>TylerE+d3
What happens when your wifi goes down? I mean the local wifi, as often happens for these not "pretty serious routers".

I realize wifi might be the best of several bad options though.

replies(1): >>TylerE+rd
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60. faddyp+tc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:11:51
>>uptown+75
Man if only there was another way to turn on lights.
replies(1): >>rainon+vi
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61. florbo+Bc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:12:38
>>dervjd+T7
Surprised I haven't seen more mentions of Z-wave here. It seems like something that would be more popular.
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62. jjoona+Fc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:12:45
>>clnq+Ga
Is this wishful thinking or did they actually price hike enough to lose money?
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63. drekip+Jc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:13:40
>>clnq+Ga
> The alternative could be investors investing their capital responsibly, in companies with competent C-suites

That definitely exists and happens all the time

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64. cowsan+Kc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:13:45
>>clnq+Ga
> career drivers leading car manufacturers

?? Driving around a lot doesn’t mean you know anything about manufacturing cars. You may have good inputs on what the interior design should be, but getting a team to build a million mile engine requires a different skill set.

replies(1): >>clnq+pV
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65. sooper+Oc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:14:32
>>philis+o6
Hey, don't laugh! Literally last week I dug out my old X10 kit and set up my new office with it and a 25 year old remote that only needed new batteries. Still got the serial port dongle somewhere too in case I need to strap it to a Pi :)
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66. mlucie+Qc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:14:37
>>akira2+J9
You can be, quite easily - see Title 8, 3321b2 (a PA law that lets PA municipalities punish building ordinance violations via criminal process) - most states have some version of this.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?...

replies(1): >>akira2+vM
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67. cowsan+6d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:16:11
>>mr_toa+mb
In the US, it can definitely reach the point where they will tear it down and send you the bill for the demolition. And if you don’t pay that bill, they’ll then auction off your land to get paid.
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68. debate+7d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:16:21
>>taneq+K9
I really hope you get to write the forward for the next published 3GPP specification.
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69. Bizarr+cd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:17:14
>>clnq+Ga
> The alternative could be investors investing their capital responsibly, in companies with competent C-suites

That will never happen, the influence of money is always corrupting. There is no free market solution, these are things that have to be enforced by law.

replies(2): >>addict+Ri >>clnq+gW
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70. Phrodo+fd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:17:38
>>tedivm+c2
They also make appliances, so it is as simple as buying a home assistant yellow and pairing it to the lights.
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71. dghlsa+od[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:18:34
>>taneq+K9
Yeah, but at the end of the day the serial bus seems to work well enough.

Power delivery is wonky, but it’s pretty rare, bordering on never for me anyway, to plug in a peripheral and not have it just work.

replies(1): >>taneq+iH1
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72. anon-3+pd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:18:34
>>dzdt+o4
You think government/standard is immune to enshittification?
replies(2): >>afavou+Of >>metaba+Rg
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73. TylerE+rd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:18:54
>>Fatnin+2c
Flick the wall switch twice. That’ll power cycle it and it defaults to on (although you can configure that, too).

The smart plugs that I use for fans have a physical push button

74. menset+Ed[view] [source] 2023-09-27 02:20:15
>>Taylor+(OP)
Could there be a collective development like Blender supported by donations over patreon?
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75. hnrepo+Fd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:20:23
>>autoex+M7
If you like different color ambience in your room, you will pretty much need an app. The colored light industry will never make hardware controls for adjusting hue/saturation/contrast.
replies(4): >>autoex+ci >>weikju+qi >>tga+Bi >>solard+Gw
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76. Jamiso+ze[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:24:52
>>bernie+Xa
> USB is not the poster child for successful industry-led standards.

Every day billions of devices use USB for charging and data transfer and work just fine.. was there some government intervention that jumped in to make that work that I am unfamiliar with?

However the sausage was made.. and is still being made... may be imperfect and ugly but USB seems pretty darn successful!

Bluetooth too!

replies(1): >>ArnoVW+Gh
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77. pdonis+nf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:29:11
>>germin+Cb
And the same government makes sure that the code, in addition to including things that are actually necessary for your safety, also includes a lot of other things that aren't, but that are beneficial for the friends and relatives of government officials who run construction companies and don't want to have to innovate. As Robert Heinlein once said, "We have never seen a modern house."
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78. afavou+Of[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:32:12
>>anon-3+pd
No but I do think it’s more resistant than what we currently have? Yes.
replies(1): >>bradge+Sh
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79. faerie+Uf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:33:35
>>twism+O2
3rd party "Works with google home" stuff will often stop getting updated causing more and more functionality to break over time. Admittedly this is an issue you can avoid by entirely buying the products actually made by Google, or at least carefully selecting third parties, but a huge amount of smarthome stuff is going to be rendered non-functional because of this sort of thing.

I do think the 1st party Google Home stuff is supported well enough, and I don't think any of Google's competitors in the smarthome space are really offering anything that's obviously more compelling. I mostly recommend people either go with big brands or something that can be flashed with tasmota, pick your poison.

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80. hacker+Pg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:40:39
>>the_op+i7
The paradox of maintaining good standards are that they don't break, and are hence, paid less to maintain. Or seem to not even exist.

Look at how well DNS, or TCP/IP is maintained, or Wikimedia is run

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81. metaba+Rg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:40:45
>>anon-3+pd
Doesn’t have to be immune to be better.
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82. hacker+Wg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:41:16
>>tedivm+c2
Why can I trust Home Assistant?
replies(1): >>tedivm+Pj
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83. dclowd+4h[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:42:15
>>akira2+J9
I’ve never had trouble selling a house with unpermitted work (not mine, but previous owners’)
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84. hacker+hh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:42:58
>>autoex+C7
Define "getting screwed over". For instance, I do not care about Google Maps using my location data in aggregate to improve traffic predictions. But so-called nerds would consider that "getting screwed over". There are uses of private data that can be harmlessly used to support functioning business models - the alternate is ads and/or subscriptions
replies(1): >>autoex+Ok
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85. hacker+qh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:44:22
>>LeafIt+E7
A large chunk of the HN crowd of course, we work for big tech companies or heavily capitalistic private enterprises. not you and me though! ;)
86. JumpCr+sh[view] [source] 2023-09-27 02:44:49
>>Taylor+(OP)
> Corporations cannot just release a good product and support it

Plenty of companies do this. I'd wager most of the world economy consists of steady-state Mittelstand-esque firms that put out a good product with pride.

The problem is Silicon Valley's growth mindset was emulated broadly at a time when business history familiarity fell. (In part due to lower-level folks in Silicon Valley having a knee-jerk reaction to MBAs. In part due to said MBA programs deciding studying cases from a hundred years ago wasn't cutting edge.)

Growth is good. But trying to whip a business–that on its own will grow 2 or 3% a year and, with effort, 5 or 6%–to do 10 or 20% top-line YoY ruins it. The same way taking a growth business that could grow at 5 or 6% with effort, and instead committing to cutting its costs at 5% a year (the way one would do with a business that is in structural decline at a rate of 3 to 4% p.a.), is terrible strategy.

This is garbage management. It's bad for customers. It's bad for shareholders. It's bad for the societies whose technical knowledge is being eroded. It's good for a set of managers whose behavior veers between stupid and corrupt. I don't know the solution. But it's not as radical as overhauling corporate America in its entirety.

replies(1): >>callal+7j
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87. addict+vh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:44:52
>>bernie+Xa
What’s an alternative system that’s better?

Apple’s Lightning has some of the worst connectors ever. I have about 5 USB-C cables and about 10 Lightning cables in my home. Each Lightning cable cost me more than 2x rhe most expensive USB-C cable bought from a convenience store and yet 4/5 of the Lightning cables have their wiring inside exposed while the USB-C ones could pass off as new.

The only issue I’ve ever had with a device on the USB-C side is 1 cable that is incapable of charging my wife’s macbook.

Guess how many of my Apple made Lightning cables are capable of charging my wife’s MacBook.

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88. pressb+xh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:45:06
>>achate+Va
I was excited for Matter for all it promises... but companies seem to be explicitly holding back support for it because they recognize that it will bring less control for them, less differentiation, and far fewer opportunities to force these money-squeezing ideas onto consumers. I hope to be proven wrong but I'm not feeling very optimistic about its long-term future right now.
89. nine_k+Ah[view] [source] 2023-09-27 02:45:38
>>Taylor+(OP)
But look. There is a product that can yield some money by dying. Having died, it clears the space it has been taking, so a new product can be marketed as a replacement.

Under a certain angle, it's a win-win proposition!

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90. ArnoVW+Gh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:46:19
>>Jamiso+ze
Not to be that guy, but there was the intervention of the EU to force phone makers to use USB...
replies(2): >>taneq+1L1 >>Jamiso+5r4
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91. arsome+Mh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:47:05
>>uptown+75
Non-technical people shouldn't do home automation. Unfortunate, but it's true. The entire market is just ewaste.
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92. bradge+Sh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:47:43
>>afavou+Of
It would be regulatory capture. The same companies that are enshitifying these products would send lobbyists to law makers to build a larger moat around their shitty products.
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93. suppor+7i[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:50:00
>>mostly+K2
We need a not-for-profit tech company
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94. autoex+ci[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:50:40
>>hnrepo+Fd
I don't doubt that you'll get better customization options with apps, but you aren't doomed to a life devoid of color without them.

We've got some colored lighting in the form of plain old LED strips with wired controllers, we've had a couple old fashioned single color bulbs at times, and there are other options like this: https://www.amazon.com/GE-Lighting-93100205-Replacement-Spec...

I'd really like to see something like openrgb (openrgb.org) for light bulbs though.

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95. weikju+qi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:52:58
>>hnrepo+Fd
autoexec, like myself, will therefore choose to not like color ambiances in our rooms.
replies(1): >>autoex+Xi
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96. rainon+vi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:53:31
>>faddyp+tc
Hmmm, NFC tag paired to the light that you can tap with your phone to turn it on/off?
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97. tga+Bi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:53:58
>>hnrepo+Fd
That's not true, Zigbee remotes can pair directly to lightbulbs (including Philips Hue) and control the color. Example: https://rgbgenie.com/?product=rgbgenie-rgbw-remote-zigbee

Also, there are tons of cheap colored lightbulbs controlled directly by an infrared remote. Example: https://www.amazon.com/Light-Color-Changing-2700K-White/dp/B...

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98. addict+Ri[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:56:22
>>Bizarr+cd
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but it’s not money that’s corrupting.

I find the moralizing of these actions quite frustrating because they seem to indicate people don’t actually understand why things work the way do.

The C-suite aren’t corrupt. They have a job to do and they’re doing their job. Their job is to maximize returns on the investors’ investments. That’s it. It’s absolutely moral for them to do that job.

One might complain that their actions focus too much on the short term rather than the long term, and that would be a legitimate complaint. But only if it means they’re losing money in the long term. Enshittification usually makes money both in the short and long terms.

Once we recognize that people aren’t being “corrupt” but actually doing the job they’re being paid to do by maximizing their profits, one can focus on how to provide incentives to maximize profits without making things worse. And profit maximization inevitably leads to making things worse because it requires minimizing what you’re giving the customer and maximizing what you’re getting from them.

The free market check on this is competition. But competition only works if it’s a genuinely competitive market, and there are clear signals to the customer who is educated in understanding and valuing those signals, regarding the quality of products.

This used to be much easier earlier where products were simpler, but it’s much harder now. The vast majority of the market will have no ability to evaluate the risk of needing an online account to switch on your light bulb. And so a company which provides the no login option will be less competitive because it won’t be able to make money off your data and it will have to support an additional workflow.

In the absence of customer knowledge and visibility we only really have standards.

Ideally you start with standards provided by industry trade bodies. However, those are ripe for corruption and as a result there’s hardly any such successful standards.

Which leads you to the final option which is govt standards that are either highly encouraged by the threat of possibly instituting firmer regulations or just plain and simple regulated with the threat of fines and jail.

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99. autoex+Xi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:57:04
>>weikju+qi
I've managed to come up with a few app free options, more limited, but still effective and less abusive than an app. I'd make do with a string of Christmas lights if I had to.
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100. callal+7j[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:58:26
>>JumpCr+sh
Philips is a Dutch multinational conglomerate. You cannot make any sincere argument about how this is the fault of Silicon Vally, or even the United States.

(Opinion) the only common denominator remaining is the underlying economic system.

replies(1): >>JumpCr+Ju
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101. tedivm+Pj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 03:04:21
>>hacker+Wg
It's completely open source, so you can run it yourself. I've read through a lot of the code and have contributed to it- it's pretty well organized.
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102. autoex+Ok[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 03:11:16
>>hacker+hh
> Define "getting screwed over". For instance, I do not care about Google Maps using my location data in aggregate to improve traffic predictions.

This guy didn't care about his location data going to google either: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/google-tracked-his-bike...

He got screwed over big time. Thousands of dollars, just to avoid a jail cell.

There are uses of personal data that can be harmless, but once that data is in the hands of someone else you don't have any say in how it is used (harmless or otherwise) and even if the people using your data today aren't doing anything abusive with it, that data will live forever and you never know who will end up with it in the future or what they will do with it.

If the alternative is a subscription (assuming that actually means your data is not handed over to someone else) then at least you'll know what the cost of a product/service is, and you'll only pay for it while you're subscribed.

If you pay with your data, once it's out of your hands it can be used against you again and again at any time so you never get to stop "paying" and can never know what it will ultimately cost you.

As another example of getting screwed over, I've got a family member who bought a bluray of some movie in a shop, and then when she got home to play it found that her player refused because of DRM. The player wasn't connected to the internet and it needed to connect to a remote server in order to get permission to play her legally purchased media on her legally purchased player. She didn't understand what was happening and called me. The player didn't have wifi. The company sold a special USB wifi adapter at an insane price, otherwise she'd either have to move her furniture to take the player upstairs next to her modem and connect it physically, or run a very very long cable across her entire house.

The next time she needed a bluray player, she avoided the old brand, but didn't even check to see if it had wifi capability before buying (she got lucky and it did).

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103. Flammy+Uq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 03:53:14
>>inetkn+51
Fair enough, I've generally gone with cheaper lower end products and some of them EoL, some die, but I write that off as a nature of playing with more little computers than my ancestors could have ever imagined.

It probably is important to note that like many modern tech systems, they aren't "hands free" automation. Patches come out, things desync from the network, etc.

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104. Flammy+vr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 03:57:26
>>fragme+h1
That is one thing Wyze doesn't have: A dimmer.

I use: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N106YN7 then connect the Leviton dimmer to Google Assistant for voice routines crossing different app gardens.

I don't use colored lights, but you could use smart bulbs or fixed colored lights controlled via smart plugs depending on your use case. Or just get something with built in multi color, like LED strips.

There are some LED strips that maintain programming thru powering off, just like how oil radiators with physical switches maintain settings thru powering off. These devices work great with smart plugs, and in the case of an oil radiator can be hooked up to a smart thermostat for a cheap man's smart home, fully portable for moving or apartment swapping.

I can do a longer write up if you're curious.

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105. JumpCr+Ju[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 04:24:02
>>callal+7j
> Philips is a Dutch multinational conglomerate. You cannot make any sincere argument about how this is the fault of Silicon Vally

I never said it’s Silicon Valley’s fault. It’s the fault of managers emulating Silicon Valley in businesses that lack the underlying growth drivers.

> only common denominator remaining is the underlying economic system

If you ignore the corpus of counterfactuals I mentioned, sure. Blaming the entire economic system is a great way to stop marginal reforms. Perfect is the enemy of the good. (And in this case, it’s not perfection—it’s a utopia borne out of misreading the current economy as well as its history.)

replies(1): >>callal+rw
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106. callal+rw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 04:36:10
>>JumpCr+Ju
>Blaming the entire economic system is a great way to stop marginal reforms. Perfect is the enemy of the good.

You have my interest: what marginal reforms would prevent a multinational conglomerate from enshittifying lightbulbs? Would you change the management structure? The ownership structure? You’d think an huge institution with the momentum Philips has would be able to resist the kind of “growth hacking” this article is complaining about, but that’s empirically not the case. If you were god for a day how would you restructure Philips Hue? (I’m digging for a heartfelt rant because I really don’t have a good answer here.)

replies(1): >>JumpCr+9s2
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107. solard+Gw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 04:38:34
>>hnrepo+Fd
There are a bunch of like $10 rando lights that come with a remote, including hue and brightness (not contrast or saturation though).
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108. Taylor+nA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 05:11:10
>>GuB-42+hb
The Philips Hue system has been a simple and reliable system for years. And now they are enshittifying this service. "Home Automation" perhaps has always been shit, but this specific system used to be great and now it is being made shittier in the name of short term profits. That is enshittification IMO.
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109. ncalla+NG[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 06:16:25
>>no_wiz+Ja
There’s two questions:

“Could get away with it” in terms of “would he be liable for a lawsuit for failing to meet the duty to shareholders”, probably not as long as he could article a reasonably justifiable reason his actions were in the shareholder interests, that isn’t directly contradicted by evidence.

“Could he get away with it” in terms of “would shareholders fire him?” maybe not. Depends on the shareholders, I guess.

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110. akira2+vM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 07:11:36
>>mlucie+Qc
This isn't always a state level issue. It's often established county by county. There are lots of counties in the US where there is no zoning law. The only state business you need to do there is report any improvements to the appraiser for tax purposes.

Some of these districts _do_ have inspectors anyways, and they will issue permits, but the county itself does not require you to do this. As I said though, you will certainly be unable to insure anything you've built without a permit in these places. Aside from that, you can build what you want however you want.

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111. clnq+pV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 08:27:28
>>cowsan+Kc
Don’t be so surprised. McLaren, Shelby, Ferrari, Pagani Automobili, etc were founded and lead by career drivers.
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112. clnq+gW[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 08:35:23
>>Bizarr+cd
No need to be so cynical. Regular people are investing in publicly traded companies and they do care. Activist investing is on the rise. Private investors in the tech sector now do much more rigorous vetting of companies (especially after series B) than a decade ago, many people are already talking about the end of cheap money. Also, the phenomenon called techlash affects investors as well.

It might not be happening at a large scale, but we are moving in that direction in recent years.

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113. taneq+iH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 13:57:07
>>dghlsa+od
Power delivery is the worst, but for a long time it was super random whether you'd get USB2 or USB3 speed, wait sorry USB3 High Speed or USB3 Full Speed or whatever they renamed it to. And then there's the confusion between USB 1/2/3/etc. and A/B/mini-A/mini-B/micro-A/micro-B/C connectors, and the fact that it requires a half-page infographic to just sum up the latter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Connector_type_quick_refer...). Overall I feel that the USB Working Group, wait the USB Promoter Group, wait- who even are they? should take a vow of penance and refer to themselves as the SB Group until they sort this out.
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114. taneq+1L1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 14:13:09
>>ArnoVW+Gh
No, you be that guy. As many gripes as I have with USB, the EU forcing all phone manufacturers to use a common charging standard was huge. This is the kind of thing where government action really can improve on a Nash equilibrium.
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115. JumpCr+9s2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 16:59:34
>>callal+rw
> what marginal reforms would prevent a multinational conglomerate from enshittifying lightbulbs? Would you change the management structure? The ownership structure?

I’d remove sovereignty over the system from Philips. Consider mp3 or Arm. A balance of power. There the balance is between suppliers.

But let’s take the toughest case: you want to launch a system that users can trust long term, but you don’t have peer-level partners. (You also have executive authority at Philips.) First: divide standards writing from your corporate interests. You still want significant influence over the standard. But you want to remove the ability to make further changes unilaterally from your reports and successors. Universities are a natural partner in this; perhaps, also, a consumer-advocacy group. Second: give users clearly-defined and easily-marketed legal rights in respect of their devices.

The first added a public component to a limited section of your architecture. You’re not giving up profit, just control. (And future control, at that.) The second does threaten profits, but only in the long term; you’re leaning into management’s short-term profit incentives in both cases. Finally, to guard against the legal rights being curtailed by a future executive, build in a poison pill: if they’re reduced within certain parameters, certain IP becomes freely licenseable for repairs, et cetera. (I’d also add in engineering representation at the subsidiary’s Board level, perhaps with a separate ESOP package or whatever, but that’s likely more trouble than it’s worth.)

The above recapitulates the history of enlightened despots. Using absolute power to limit successors while giving balancing voices at the table. In Philips case, there was no ecosystem. No third-party developers of note. Users in insufficient numbers and organisation to pressure management. Betting on humans being good for goodness’ sake is a terrible philosophy, irrespective of how they’re organised.

And dare I say, had they done the above and created an ecosystem where they were a major—but not the dominant—player, there is a good chance I’d have their product in my house right now. By choosing a non-aligned model, Philips lost long-term value, both by sacrificing revenue and assuming the entire network’s development cost.

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116. Jamiso+5r4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-28 04:28:59
>>ArnoVW+Gh
Right, but that is entirely unrelated to USB working -- the regulation exists long after USB had proven itself.. because it had proven itself.
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