zlacker

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1. xiphia+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-01-24 11:03:51
,,In addition, Apple has been underfunding Safari for the past decade leading to missing critical functionality and a buggy experience for Web App developers thus ensuring that Native Apps, another Apple revenue source, are the only viable solution.''

It's not just funding. Apple changed webapps to delete indexedDB periodically even if they are inatalled on the home screen.

There's no way to have a great experience if you can't store data permanently.

replies(6): >>mtomwe+q >>msh+V >>pprota+m1 >>spiffy+4b >>skrowl+5D >>jefftk+2X
2. mtomwe+q[view] [source] 2023-01-24 11:08:01
>>xiphia+(OP)
xiphias2: Are you sure about it deleting IDB data even if they are installed on the homescreen? We've not come across that before.

If so this is something we really need to follow up.

replies(2): >>xiphia+K >>saurik+62
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3. xiphia+K[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 11:11:27
>>mtomwe+q
I'm not sure, I just read it somewhere some time ago, somewhere I read that iOS deletes it weekly or something like that. But I'm happy that I was wrong about it.
replies(1): >>mtomwe+92
4. msh+V[view] [source] 2023-01-24 11:13:13
>>xiphia+(OP)
Why should a browser app be allowed to store data permanently? I think that breaks normal ideas about how browser apps work, except for cookies everything is stored server side.
replies(4): >>mtomwe+Q1 >>samwil+T1 >>michae+Wi >>intras+Xk1
5. pprota+m1[view] [source] 2023-01-24 11:16:32
>>xiphia+(OP)
What if you store the data in a back-end, just like native mobile apps?
replies(2): >>mtomwe+12 >>martin+L6
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6. mtomwe+Q1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 11:20:42
>>msh+V
We're talking about for installed Web Apps here.

Ask yourself the same question about Native Apps. Why should any Native App be allowed to store data permanently. The answer to that question is the same for Web Apps.

replies(3): >>msh+X2 >>intras+Pj1 >>nmcela+WG1
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7. samwil+T1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 11:21:17
>>msh+V
Browser apps (particularly the concept of PWAs) are the only alternative to the App Store on iOS. Having a way to store data indefinitely is essential, even if that is behind a "install as app" banner.
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8. mtomwe+12[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 11:21:59
>>pprota+m1
Many (most?) native apps also have a local store which is essential to how they function. Having to rely on stable internet for your app to work is annoying for lots of types of apps.
replies(2): >>pprota+f61 >>intras+ml1
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9. saurik+62[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 11:23:07
>>mtomwe+q
https://webkit.org/blog/10218/full-third-party-cookie-blocki...

> As mentioned, the seven-day cap on script-writable storage is gated on “after seven days of Safari use without user interaction on the site.” That is the case in Safari. Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted.

> If your web application does experience website data deletion, please let us know since we would consider it a serious bug. It is not the intention of Intelligent Tracking Prevention to delete website data for first parties in web applications.

So, while adding it to the home screen still involves this mechanism, the "first-party"--which I understand to be the website which was actually added to the home screen, differentiating it from all of the third-party websites that it might link you to--is presumably going to be used every time you use that icon on the home screen and since that icon also has its own usage counter it won't ever be counting up when you aren't using it, so you are "good" (unless the user manages to use your home screen added app for seven days without ever ending up back at the "first-party" site somehow, which seems like an oddity and maybe one they mitigated directly).

replies(1): >>djxfad+na
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10. mtomwe+92[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 11:23:34
>>xiphia+K
Oh right, yeah, I think there's an exception for home screen apps. Now it's worse for Web Apps to have the data deleted, but I do understand the privacy reasons why Apple is deleting the IDB data.
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11. msh+X2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 11:32:02
>>mtomwe+Q1
I (and many others I suspect) like web apps exactly because they cannot do what native apps can. If a web app was allowed to do what a native app why would I use a web app? It would just bring the bad sides of native apps to web apps.
replies(1): >>mtomwe+f5
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12. mtomwe+f5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 11:52:32
>>msh+X2
1. Interoperable between all operating systems (mobile and desktop) 2. Does not lock you into proprietary ecosystems 3. Is built on free and open technology, and investing in that technology helps make it available to others 4. Is not subject to the whims, taxes and control of the gatekeepers

Web Apps can be every bit as capable as Native Apps except with security and privacy built in. For consumers, businesses and competition, Native Apps need to be relegated to to apps that require cutting edge use cases

replies(2): >>Conan_+C6 >>msh+Ja
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13. Conan_+C6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 12:02:16
>>mtomwe+f5
1. Web Apps are not interoperable across browsers. It's largely a Chrome world.

2. You (as a user) lack autonomy or control over them.

3. While built on "free and open technology", they are not by design.

4. Is totally subject to the whems, taxes, and control of the gatekeeper (the app developer)

Web applications have demonstratively made the experience worse for users without them knowing it. And web app developers know this intrinsically and refuse to acknowledge it.

replies(2): >>kristi+18 >>mtomwe+s9
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14. martin+L6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 12:03:25
>>pprota+m1
Somebody has to pay for that backend, making it hard to build free apps.

It also impacts the UX of the app with more complex caching or having to load things over the network as you use it.

replies(1): >>xiphia+ny
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15. kristi+18[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 12:13:37
>>Conan_+C6
1. Not in my experience. I use Firefox and with very few execptions, everything works the way I expect it to.

2. Not any more than native apps.

3. I guess.. Not sure that matters though..

4. Not any more than native apps. But what mtomweb refers to is obviously the app stores which act as gate keepers, which web apps are not subject to.

>Web applications have demonstratively made the experience worse for users without them knowing it. And web app developers know this intrinsically and refuse to acknowledge it.

What? Not in my opinion, they haven't.

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16. mtomwe+s9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 12:23:19
>>Conan_+C6
1. They largely are, the effort to build so they run in Firefox is small and if Safari is forced to compete and then fixes the bugs + adds critical functionality then they will be interoperable on iOS as well

2. You have far more control over Web Apps than Native Apps. The permissions are more granular + via your user agent (browser) you can change privacy and security settings and install extensions to change the behaviour further.

This is not available on native.

3. We're not advocating for "free" apps (App Developers need to make a living too), We're advocating for free and open web tech.

4. Having hundreds of thousands of competing App Developers is not an issue, having 2/3 gatekeepers controlling and extracting rents is.

5. Web Applications only have to be written once, which will result in BETTER products. There's a reason Adobe, Microsoft and many other companies are all investing in Web Apps.

replies(1): >>msh+uf
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17. djxfad+na[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 12:31:28
>>saurik+62
Couldn't you get around this by e.g. having a JWT auth token be a part of the webapps insalled url? And then if local data is missing, use the token to fetch it from a backend store? That's how I would solve it at least.
replies(2): >>happym+N61 >>saurik+KQ1
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18. msh+Ja[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 12:33:52
>>mtomwe+f5
I would say that a web app is worse than a stand alone native app from a open perspective.

Unless the app is open source why would it matter to me if it is build on free and open technology?

I would say per definition a webapp is less free than a native app as its under the control of the server operator and not running locally. I know iOS have somewhat webified apps to let them control if people can run them but the old idea of the native app would be entirely under the control of the user, even if its closed source.

I also dont think a web app can do privacy as well as a native app. A native app you can firewalled off from network access while with a web app you are at the mercy of the developer and server operator.

replies(1): >>pmontr+Yl
19. spiffy+4b[view] [source] 2023-01-24 12:36:20
>>xiphia+(OP)
Safari deletes all of a site's local data after a week of inactivity, including cookies.

This makes users feel like they're never logged into a website when they need it, unless they're using it almost daily.

That high-friction experience pushes users towards apps, which of course are always ready to go.

EDIT: source: https://webkit.org/blog/10218/full-third-party-cookie-blocki...

> Back in February 2019, we announced that ITP would cap the expiry of client-side cookies to seven days

> ...

> Now ITP has aligned the remaining script-writable storage forms with the existing client-side cookie restriction, deleting all of a website’s script-writable storage after seven days of Safari use without user interaction on the site. These are the script-writable storage forms affected (excluding some legacy website data types):

> Indexed DB

> LocalStorage

> Media keys

> SessionStorage

> Service Worker registrations and cache

EDIT 2: That page indicates web apps on the home screen get some variation for this behavior, but the difference isn't clear to me.

replies(2): >>DaiPlu+Xf >>zimpen+Ay
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20. msh+uf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 13:07:37
>>mtomwe+s9
> Web Applications only have to be written once, which will result in BETTER products. There's a reason Adobe, Microsoft and many other companies are all investing in Web Apps.

No, its so they can better get money out of the end users. A user cant keep using their 5 year old copy of XYZ, they have to pay every month or they will be cut off from the application.

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21. DaiPlu+Xf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 13:11:54
>>spiffy+4b
> Safari deletes all of a site's local data after a week of inactivity, including cookies.

That’s a gross misrepresentation of how Safari ITP works.

replies(1): >>tehlik+9w
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22. michae+Wi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 13:31:48
>>msh+V
Some users would like to, for example, dismiss the beg banner on Wikipedia and have it stay gone.

How to balance that desire with advertisers' desire to track users is of course a difficult question.

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23. pmontr+Yl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 13:50:26
>>msh+Ja
With a web app there is a direct relationship between the site owner (let's say HN) and me. There is no Apple middleman in between, making rules about what the service can do or can't do, taking a cut of the profits, shutting down the service at their whim, deciding which updates are good and which are not. Same for Google on Android.
replies(1): >>Spivak+UR
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24. tehlik+9w[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 14:41:26
>>DaiPlu+Xf
What's the correct version?
replies(1): >>DaiPlu+dK1
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25. xiphia+ny[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 14:51:19
>>martin+L6
I'm excited because if Nostr for this reason: it can be used as a general storage for small data.

It's not good for storing media, but for other things it can be used as a backup and communication tool for web apps.

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26. zimpen+Ay[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 14:52:25
>>spiffy+4b
> apps, which of course are always ready to go.

I wish that were true. But since many apps these days are just slapdash shims over web portals, they time out login sessions and forget things anyway.

27. skrowl+5D[view] [source] 2023-01-24 15:14:42
>>xiphia+(OP)
They're intentionally making Safari a bad experience so that you have to use apps for everything. Apps where they can rake 30% on your purchases, of course.
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28. Spivak+UR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 16:11:27
>>pmontr+Yl
I think it's bold of you to assume that in a world where Apple decides to have 1st class support PWA's that it won't also come with the same restrictions as native apps.

They'll make you submit your PWA for app store review, sign your asset and JS bundles so all other's won't load, make you support "Web IAP", and go through review again every time you want to update your bundle.

Hitching your "I want to be be free of Apple's platform control" to "I want PWA's" is a recipe for disappointment.

29. jefftk+2X[view] [source] 2023-01-24 16:27:23
>>xiphia+(OP)
> Apple changed webapps to delete indexedDB periodically even if they are inatalled on the home screen.

Source? I had thought the usage counter ignored days when you didn't open the webapp.

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30. pprota+f61[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 16:59:19
>>mtomwe+12
Do you really believe most apps rely on local storage? What if I remove the app from my phone and reinstall it later? All my data is gone?

I am pretty sure most apps use AT LEAST iCloud to store data

replies(1): >>rejhga+su1
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31. happym+N61[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 17:01:09
>>djxfad+na
This doesn't feel like it's a great idea but considering the implication of your webapp forgetting stuff, I'm not sure of a better option.
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32. intras+Pj1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 17:50:14
>>mtomwe+Q1
Yes, the answer is the same. I also don't want apps to use my local storage.
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33. intras+Xk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 17:54:48
>>msh+V
I largely agree. I'd also say Why should a native app be allowed to store data permanently?

But it would be nice if the user could make this setting on a per-webapp basis.

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34. intras+ml1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 17:56:41
>>mtomwe+12
Example?
replies(1): >>rejhga+Ou1
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35. rejhga+su1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 18:33:04
>>pprota+f61
Oh come on, relying on local storage is not the same as not having a backup.

Modern web apps can cache all the files they need to function. They can work offline. So when iOS deletes a web app's data, it doesn't just delete some content and maybe a few settings. It's basically like it deletes the entire app and you have to reinstall it (by opening the web app and re-download all assets that make it work). Sure, the icon is still on your home screen, but the entire app behind it is gone.

It'll also delete things like your login status/tokens/etc, so you have to log in again, maybe the web app has settings that it doesn't want to sync across devices, etc.

I assume that when Web Push hits iOS, notifications will only work as long as you open the web app often enough.

replies(1): >>pprota+0F1
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36. rejhga+Ou1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 18:33:52
>>intras+ml1
Any app you install downloads megabytes worth of code, assets, etc. That's all local storage.
replies(1): >>intras+Zy9
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37. pprota+0F1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 19:10:30
>>rejhga+su1
Oh okay I didn’t realize we were talking about the actual application code being stored in local data. I thought they meant stuff like user data or application state, which is often handled by the back-end instead of client-side. Makes sense now, and I can see how removing that ability from webapps makes offline functionality impossible.
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38. nmcela+WG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 19:16:48
>>mtomwe+Q1
Exactly.

So much of the software industry has been consolidated into the hands of a few monopolies. Web, with all of its horrible problems, is pretty much the only democratic platform we have left, and even it is constantly being eaten away by these monopolies.

It's your device. If you want a website to be able to store data permanently on it, it is your choice. Not apple's. Not google's. Fucking yours.

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39. DaiPlu+dK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 19:28:44
>>tehlik+9w
The parent has since updated their post with updated details that I wasn't previously aware-of - I thought they were referring to a news story from 2012 when Apple first introduced clearing of client-side-cookies (i.e. cookies set by JavaScript, not cookies in general) after inactivity but was commonly misinterpreted as Apple saying they'd just delete all cookies after a week willy-nilly.

However I note that contrary the parent-poster's implication that Apple is using tricks like these to steer users towards native apps, the same linked article talks about how pinned web-apps (i.e. PWAs) _don't_ have their local content deleted after inactivity, which contradicts the claim that Apple is using this in particular to sabotage PWAs:

> That is the case in Safari. Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted. > > If your web application does experience website data deletion, please let us know since we would consider it a serious bug. It is not the intention of Intelligent Tracking Prevention to delete website data for first parties in web applications.

But I do agree that Apple very likely has internal orders from the top-down to de-prioritise PWAs because Apple definitely wants to see users (and devs) go native (or least via the App Store) instead of being PWAs - but I don't believe it goes as far as _actively_ sabotaging PWAs (i.e. just merely "passively-sabotaging", I guess?).

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40. saurik+KQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-24 19:53:01
>>djxfad+na
1) The people who are really caring about this are trying to avoid having the data be stored on some server also, and 2) so are you claiming Apple got this wrong?... Like, their mechanism here sounded pretty sufficient to me.
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41. intras+Zy9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-01-26 21:10:25
>>rejhga+Ou1
And your browser will cache those assets. I, for one, prefer that approach. And I can clear my cache when I want.
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