zlacker

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1. gramma+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-11-11 01:01:24
> Los Angeles and San Diego Unified — the state’s two largest school districts, with some 660,000 students combined — have recently directed teachers to base academic grades on whether students have learned what was expected of them during a course — and not penalize them for behavior, work habits and missed deadlines.

That lesson is going to serve them well in the workplace.

Teach students that they are entitled to bad behavior, bad work habits, and deadlines? Fuck deadlines

The next generation is going to have a hard time competing in the global workplace against cultures that do enforce reasonable consequences for fucking up.

replies(5): >>skyde+66 >>bthesh+v6 >>bodhia+I6 >>zem+M7 >>tayo42+K9
2. skyde+66[view] [source] 2021-11-11 01:53:30
>>gramma+(OP)
you got to understand where this new guidelines are coming from.

If a 5 years old student already can do algebra and calculus but his teacher give him 100 page of simple addition to do as homework and he decide to not do them…

Should he fail the class ? I don’t think so, the class is already too easy for him!

His grade should only be based on his score on exams!

Why force student to waste hours at home doing busy work on something they already master? this sound like torture!

replies(2): >>bodhia+V6 >>remark+9z
3. bthesh+v6[view] [source] 2021-11-11 01:56:41
>>gramma+(OP)
When I fucked up in middle/high school, it wasn't because I was lazy. It was because I had no idea how to deal with stress/anxiety/deadlines. I had teachers who luckily were empathetic and I grew up eventually. I was lucky - I have fantastic parents in a loving, stable marriage and my mental health on the whole was not extraordinarily bad.

Many kids are not that lucky. In my experience, the kids (my peers) who were doing drastically badly weren't lazy. They had something else going on - a bad home life, or serious mental health issues.

replies(1): >>lmm+Na
4. bodhia+I6[view] [source] 2021-11-11 01:59:25
>>gramma+(OP)
School really doesn't mimic the workplace very well. For one thing, work doesn't usually give homework! (with some exceptions like the law). Docking students for bad behavior is problematic, because it requires the teacher to be extremely honest, to avoid unequal standards. Late penalties almost certainly impede learning since they cause the give up effect, where students give up on something they can't hope to finish, instead of actually trying. The issue ultimately is that if you want grades to be a measure of student performance, they should actually measure student performance, and not other aspects of what students do in a class.
replies(2): >>anonfo+0s >>gramma+x71
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5. bodhia+V6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 02:02:13
>>skyde+66
The problem is that exams are often an extremely poor assessment of actual student learning, since they're such an unnatural format (no checking of oneself, strong time limits, extremely "easy" problems that can be done in those time limits). The other problem is that the only way to actually learn something is often to practice it. Attaching grades to "homework" is a method of forcing students to actually do the practice. Otherwise, there has to be some other reward mechanism, because frankly, its very hard for children to have the self discipline to study on their own.
replies(2): >>skyde+x7 >>lmm+wa
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6. skyde+x7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 02:08:45
>>bodhia+V6
in this case maybe force the student to complete homework during school hours. instead of expecting kid to do it at home.
replies(1): >>bodhia+S7
7. zem+M7[view] [source] 2021-11-11 02:12:20
>>gramma+(OP)
the point of school is to give you a basic educational foundation, not to prepare you for the workplace
replies(3): >>bodhia+Y7 >>Burnaf+5x >>gramma+D51
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8. bodhia+S7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 02:13:25
>>skyde+x7
There are a finite number of school hours! Teachers have to be paid! That being said, America is extremely unusual in the small number of explicit classroom hours students have, and the large amount of homework students are expected to do.
replies(2): >>coredo+Ib >>skyde+6p
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9. bodhia+Y7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 02:14:01
>>zem+M7
I agree! Also "prepare for the workplace" is meaningless. There are many many different kinds of workplaces!
replies(1): >>crehn+bv
10. tayo42+K9[view] [source] 2021-11-11 02:35:30
>>gramma+(OP)
I think one of my most important work lessons was deadlines are almost always not real.
replies(4): >>b9a2ca+Kk >>zsmi+Sl >>Walter+xp >>asdff+Pq
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11. lmm+wa[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 02:42:27
>>bodhia+V6
Typical homework does not enhance learning at all. It's given out because parents think seeing their kids suffering through drills means they're learning.
replies(2): >>bodhia+7f >>b9a2ca+Rk
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12. lmm+Na[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 02:44:09
>>bthesh+v6
Dealing with stress/anxiety/deadlines is a vital life skill. At some point people have to face failures and consequences (even if the failure was "not their fault"!) and learn to handle them; if they don't do it in school they'll be doing it for the first time in college, or in the workplace, or with governmental requirements.
replies(4): >>lostdo+Jm >>denimn+Vp >>kqr+ts >>bthesh+7k2
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13. coredo+Ib[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 02:51:36
>>bodhia+S7
Students from France are absolutely laughing at this. Wednesdays are half days and the homework load at the lower grade levels is mind boggling.
replies(1): >>bodhia+Ne
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14. bodhia+Ne[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 03:18:03
>>coredo+Ib
Students in France go to school 6 days a week and have a longer school year.
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15. bodhia+7f[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 03:23:01
>>lmm+wa
Who knows? Studies show relatively little influence of homework on achievement. But education studies are as a rule terrible. https://www.almendron.com/tribuna/wp-content/uploads/2016/02...
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16. b9a2ca+Kk[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 04:37:59
>>tayo42+K9
But some level of work ethic is certainly important. You don't need to work 80 hour weeks but you need to actually get your work done within a ballpark of when you said you'd get it done.
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17. b9a2ca+Rk[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 04:39:20
>>lmm+wa
Retrieval practice and attempting to solve problems before you know the solution to them _does_ improve retention [1]. At least in my high school, those drills definitely exercised these two ideas. In college I copied half my homeworks from answers or exercised the option to make my grade entirely dependent on exams and I definitely retained less information than if I had done the homework.

[1]: https://www.retrievalpractice.org/make-it-stick

replies(1): >>bodhia+IF
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18. zsmi+Sl[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 04:53:13
>>tayo42+K9
For many of us in manufacturing the deadlines are very real. I actually like them. I do my best work under deadline as it forces me to focus.
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19. lostdo+Jm[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 05:03:04
>>lmm+Na
The point still stands. School doesn't teach you to handle stress and anxiety. It just creates some for you.
replies(1): >>lmm+0q
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20. skyde+6p[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 05:27:10
>>bodhia+S7
I believe homework are useless. but if you think they are a more effective way of learning then why not replace lecture with exercise?

Or are you simply saying student need to dedicate more hours per day than only school hours to not get behind ?

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21. Walter+xp[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 05:34:49
>>tayo42+K9
Without deadlines most people won't accomplish anything.
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22. denimn+Vp[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 05:39:27
>>lmm+Na
dealing with stress and anxiety while your brain is still developing doesn't always go as you would want and the public school system surely isn't going to help them cope if they do react poorly.
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23. lmm+0q[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 05:40:11
>>lostdo+Jm
It's a relatively low-stakes environment (in the long term, even though it doesn't feel like it at the time) where you have to deal with it. That's valuable.
replies(1): >>lostdo+Kz
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24. asdff+Pq[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 05:49:12
>>tayo42+K9
Tell that to the client
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25. anonfo+0s[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 06:02:33
>>bodhia+I6
Work does give you homework, it's just the self-selected kind. The people who excel and get ahead at work are the ones who recognize this and do the extra work. Whether that's educating themselves so they can make a career move, or taking on extra tasks (which often requires self-edification) to show they are worth promoting.

I think what school fails to do is teach the difference between internal motivation and external motivation. Mandated homework is external motivation for those who don't get it, and for those who do the mandate isn't necessary.

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26. kqr+ts[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 06:07:36
>>lmm+Na
Sure, but are you really arguing that getting bad grades is a good way to learn how to deal with anxiety? Do you have evidence for that statement?
replies(2): >>Crypto+Jv >>lmm+nw
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27. crehn+bv[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 06:41:07
>>bodhia+Y7
Regardless of the "workplace", I think what it really means is an aptitude to be productive despite ambiguity and less-than-ideal conditions. Those skills apply everywhere.
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28. Crypto+Jv[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 06:47:22
>>kqr+ts
The grading holds you accountable, and places pressure to do better.
replies(1): >>kqr+Ry
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29. lmm+nw[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 06:53:41
>>kqr+ts
If you were starting from scratch and looking for a way to teach people to deal with stress/anxiety/deadlines, what would you do? Setting up a realistic, consequential-feeling but ultimately not too consequential, environment with stress/anxiety/deadlines where they would practice and learn seems like the common-sense way to do it to me. Even if you had specific things to teach (coping techniques etc.), you'd probably still want to have that kind of environment to test them out in practice.
replies(1): >>kqr+oz
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30. Burnaf+5x[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 07:00:22
>>zem+M7
David Graeber in "Bullshit Jobs":

"Once time was money, it became possible to speak of “spending time,” rather than just “passing” it—also of wasting time, killing time, saving time, losing time, racing against time, and so forth. Puritan, Methodist, and evangelical preachers soon began instructing their flocks about the “husbandry of time,” proposing that the careful budgeting of time was the essence of morality. Factories began employing time clocks; workers came to be expected to punch the clock upon entering and leaving; charity schools designed to teach the poor discipline and punctuality gave way to public school systems where students of all social classes were made to get up and march from room to room each hour at the sound of a bell, an arrangement self-consciously designed to train children for future lives of paid factory labor.25"

"25.:Those who designed modern universal education systems were quite explicit about all this: Thompson himself cites a number of them. I remember reading that someone once surveyed American employers about what it was they actually expected when they specified in a job ad that a worker must have a high school degree: a certain level of literacy? Or numeracy? The vast majority said no, a high school education, they found, did not guarantee such things—they mainly expected the worker would be able to show up on time. Interestingly, the more advanced the level of education, however, the more autonomous the students and the more the old episodic pattern of work tends to reemerge."

Of course it's not just getting up and shuffling from class to class, but also waking up regularly, meeting deadlines, managing time efficiently. All of these things combined with the "basic educational foundation" which is in fact largely preparatory for later education and workplace fundamentals does seem to point against your assertions. And, frankly I think it's all harmful.

Edit:

Should probably also indicate that socialization in a hierarchical setting with various modes of authority being assumed while also dealing with virtual strangers at all points in the day is also not unlike work.

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31. kqr+Ry[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 07:21:15
>>Crypto+Jv
A person who is stressed or anxious is already feeling pressure. What makes you think they need more?
replies(1): >>Crypto+L41
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32. remark+9z[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 07:24:24
>>skyde+66
The same people who are arguing for "no homework" are also the ones arguing for "no tracking." So, in your hypothetical, this kid who can do algebra at age 5 would fail his math class but also not get placed in an advanced math track doing calculus at age 6 where he/she belongs.

It's a lose-lose.

replies(1): >>skyde+SN4
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33. kqr+oz[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 07:27:06
>>lmm+nw
Well, if I'd start from scratch I'd try to run experiments in different classes and see what works out best. Perhaps with a slight bias toward no grades because of the people in my life, there's a strong correlation between "cares a lot about grades" and "stress is psychologically harmful".

But fortunately I'm not starting out from scratch. People have made those experiments already. Grades suck.

Among other things that do work, guided retrospectives are one idea I would be tempted to implement. (Hell, we software developers know that too: when we want to get better, we hold retrospectives, we don't ask the scrum master to assign a letter grade!)

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34. lostdo+Kz[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 07:31:39
>>lmm+0q
Unfortunately it only helps your anxiety if you KNOW that it's low stakes.
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35. bodhia+IF[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 08:32:17
>>b9a2ca+Rk
That's the real problem with the studies saying homework does nothing. Drill does improve learning! But that's not showing up in these studies for some reason...
replies(1): >>skyde+yN4
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36. Crypto+L41[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 12:48:31
>>kqr+Ry
Well you learn to deal with it by being subjected to it. If you treat people like they're fragile, and don't apply this kind of pressure, they will grow up as fragile.
replies(1): >>kqr+751
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37. kqr+751[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 12:51:43
>>Crypto+L41
This is fascinating and new to me. What's your evidence?
replies(1): >>lmm+vj3
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38. gramma+D51[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 12:54:59
>>zem+M7
> the point of school is to give you a basic educational foundation, not to prepare you for the workplace

Why do you think that?

The point of life is to teach you how to deal with life.

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39. gramma+x71[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 13:11:30
>>bodhia+I6
> School really doesn't mimic the workplace very well.

That irrelevant.

The point is that in any given relationship, expectations are established and how well an expectation is met greatly determines the outcome.

If a student, employer, son, friend, mate agrees to completing a 1-hour task within a week and they fail to deliver, that's a problem. There are consequences.

The gist of the article is that the student is really the victim and should be pandered to.

That might work for a student or a someone's kid, but any other relationship is going to end badly. Friends, partners and employers get to choose their relationships. If you're irresponsible and disrespectful, they get to chose someone else.

> Late penalties almost certainly impede learning since they cause the give up effect,

You're confusing causation with correlation. Late penalties do not impede learning. Chosing not to learn by not doing the work impedes learning.

If a student isn't mature enough to meet expectations, the underlying cause should be addressed: the student's imaturity, irresponsibiltiy, home environment, learning disablity, lesson plan, whatever...

Removing consquenses for failing, making excuses, and giving the student a victim identity isn't doing the him/her any favors.

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40. bthesh+7k2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 19:34:32
>>lmm+Na
It comes with age.
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41. lmm+vj3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-12 03:03:44
>>kqr+751
In practically every sphere of human activity people are unskilled and get better through practice. Why would handling stress/anxiety be any different?
replies(1): >>kqr+kx3
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42. kqr+kx3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-12 06:21:27
>>lmm+vj3
That one is easy! Stress/anxiety is a condition that makes all kinds of learning significantly more difficult.

A small amount of urgency can be helpful, but ideally it should be intrinsic (i.e. someone screaming at you or giving you letter grades is nowhere near as motivating as feeling that you can almost do it) and it's very easy to overshoot.

replies(1): >>lmm+WG3
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43. lmm+WG3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-12 08:40:05
>>kqr+kx3
OK, but that doesn't answer the question of how to teach kids to deal with stress/anxiety. I agree that placing them under stress/anxiety probably damages their learning. I still think it's vital life experience to gain before adulthood.
replies(1): >>Crypto+Yq6
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44. skyde+yN4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-12 17:02:16
>>bodhia+IF
drill improve short term memorization! But unless the exam are focused on memorization instead of on understanding and mastery this will not make a significant impact on exams score.
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45. skyde+SN4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-12 17:03:53
>>remark+9z
I never said there should be no tracking. I am just saying if you want to measure my kid skill do it during school hours instead of forcing him to do an enormous amount of useless work outside school hours
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46. Crypto+Yq6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-13 06:36:26
>>lmm+WG3
Moreover, with no pressure, many kids will simply not put in effort to learn. That something so common sense is now neglected is bizarre.

Good scholastic performance by students in East Asian is not because schools in East Asian countries are low-pressure academic environments.

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