But I've been amazed at how many programmers don't like to have them. Why?
[^1]: Completely off topic, but I love when there are words that capture a feeling in one language for which there isn't a suitable analogue in another. For non-Thai speakers, this word means burdensome, but depending on context covers the whole span of "inconvenient" to "distressing". In general, though, I find English has more individual words that express an entire concept vs. Thai which has to use compound words to explain its meaning.
In Polish we have 9 such characters and most people use just so called "programmers keyboard layout" which uses left-alt + letter to do the accent.
E.g. alt + e = ę, alt + l = ł (with a one case where we have two different accents for a single letter: z, so we use alt+z = ż and alt+x = ź, the second letter is less commonly used then the first one)
20-30 years ago there were some strange keyboard layouts that didn't use alt, but hopefully they were forgotten.
Even on normal keyboards I don't use it, and they are annoying because they make the mouse position awkwardly more to the right than it should be healthy for the arm (I really envy left handed people, they don't have to deal with this).
And it is next to impossible to get a keyboard without the numpad, fortunately I found two such keyboards and I have one at work and one at home (Logitech K310 and Microsoft Sculpt).
And I haven't seen in live any person that uses numpad, I always thought it is used by accountants only (and those that don't want to use two hands to enter numbers).
Some people move to BÉPO or something like that, I use QWERTY with Xcompose.
on the right of the keyboard: ù
but that's enough to want accents and symbols on the number row by default (&é"'(-è_çà) and numbers when pressing shift.
I think that's the reason that bépo (a French variant of dvorak which allows easy access of both common accentuated keys and numbers) is more popular among French speakers than dvorak is for English speakers, proportionally.
BTW don't get me started on Ctrl/Fn confusion. Every other laptop I have switches these keys around.
WSL is for the folks that buy macOS instead of giving money to Linux OEMs, and now are looking elsewhere but still not for Linux OEMs.
Aside from making it much faster to enter numbers, I also really like it for gaming - instead of using WASD, I use the numpad 4,8,6,2). This means a whole bunch of other keys are right there for use by the same hand, e.g. 7/9 for jump, "/" for throw, 1 for crouch, 3 for prone etc. I realise this is controversial tho!
Anyway, I still do use the separate numpad every time I need to input numeric PINs or monetary values.
- It's own tactile identifier
- Easy access to numeric operators
- plus without shift
- Diminished use of the pinky finger
- The only actual 'enter' key on the keyboard
I admit that it's subjective. 'Tenkeyless' is a standard mechanical keyboard trope for a reason.
Not a problem on desktops since they don't have optimus but on laptops without a proper optimus implementation for linux you'll end up with your 1660TI or whatever running at full blast with just your terminal opened, killing your battery in no-time and turning your laptop into a frying pan.
That's why linux devs prefer no nvidia dGPUs on their laptops.
Search for "keyboard TKL", easy peasy.
What can you actually do faster on the numpad if the starting position is your right index finger resting on J?
Because that's where it should always be.
It's also terrible if you're French.
Using that laptop in Linux was the bane of my life, Optimus is hell and if you want to switch between Intel/AMD you need to reboot, no thanks.
You can't use it for VR if you have the type of Optimus I had, where if the display was connected to the Intel rather than to the Nvidia, it wouldn't work. If you left Nvidia on, and tried to use it as a laptop, you'd be lucky to get 20 minutes battery life (not exaggerating), so it was neither great for gaming nor useful for productivity.
> And it is next to impossible to get a keyboard without the numpad
Every single keyboard in my home, would like to disagree with you. I have at least a dozen, not one with a numpad.
A lot of them are mechanical, Tenkeyless (TKL) which is my favourite size, and is _literally_ a numpadless form factor.
You might say, that they don't count because they're mechanical, or expensive, or loud, or some other argument, non of which are unavoidable, but, if you want to argue concern about comfort of keyboards and long term use, I think you should seriously consider investing in a half decent mechanical. There are ergonomic form factors, and variety of sizes and key counts from 40% to over 100% (of standard).
You can get a cheap TKL for as little as £30, or hand build one like some of mine for £500-700+ and everything in between.
Also, numerical operations / form filling while consuming liquid or holding a pet. It's surprising the number of times the ability to perform even a subset of tasks while not having both hands to dedicate has allowed me to maintain focus and interest instead of stopping dead and having to spool back up slowly.
> Because that's where it should always be.
I must admit, I have yet to figure out how to maintain this discipline while whiteboarding, let alone walking, or sleeping.
I've learned from Thai speakers that there are multiple words that mean multiple things depending on the context. Where as English (and Dutch) do have this sometimes, but less often than Thai words. I am pretty sure (but correct me if I'm wrong) that both Chinese, Japanese and Korean have this too.
Dutch also has some interesting words that cannot be directly translated to English. In Dutch we don't have 'siblings', we have 'broers en zussen' where 'broers' are your brothers and 'sisters' are your sisters. There is no word that we use for both of them. Same with the word 'gezin', it means the family you are living with.
Another one is 'giftig' which has 2 english words too. Poisonous and venomous, but in Dutch it is the same thing.
I have never seen anyone use an Alt+number to get these, I personally default to EN layout and switch only when I write in local language.
Edit: people who say numbers without shift: do you realize you can switch the keyboard layout using Alt+Shift ?
In short research, I found they are hundreds of them available on Amazon, Aliexpress. However, most of them have mechanical switches[0][1], some of them have conducted switches (like Topre[2]) and it is very rarely to see cheap, typical office-use TKL keyboards made by companies like Microsoft or Logitech but Matias have at least sell one model [3].
It might be handy to read a short guide [4] of keyboard naming by their sizes, whether you will look for new keyboard in future.
[0]: https://www.amazon.com/10-keyless-keyboard/s?k=10+keyless+ke...
[1]: https://www.keyboardco.com/category.asp?path=Mechanical%20Ke...
[2]: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=topre&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
[3]: https://www.keyboardco.com/category.asp?path=Mac/Standard/Te...
[4]: https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-...
We've retained x y q (no purpose in our alphabet), making it quite convenient to just type using the native keyboard layout, regardless if I'm writing in my native language or in English.
All typing machines used it, but it was awful for programming obviously, so the "Polish programmer's layout" was added, and because it was exactly the same as standard american QWERTY (except for Left Alt + some letters) it won almost overnight.
Windows still shipped with both layouts enabled for Polish locale for decades, and nobody used the typis one, but there was a shortcut that changed between them.
When you accidentally used that shortcut - if you had Y or Z or Polish letters in your password - you couldn't log in (because you typed "yeti" but got "zeti" but it still looked like * * * * :) )
I think there must have been millions of USD lost on support calls because of that little shortcut :)
Even then, plenty french programmers use a qwerty layout of some sort. I saw people using the Canadian layout, and the international layout is I think the most efficient for IT stuff, even if it requires getting used to composing accentuated characters.
If you're looking for something more phonetic possible as a stepping stone, Lao, despite having less content to consume, is much, much easier to learn where the abugidas look about the same if you squint; you could look at Lao as simplified Thai (with a 6th tone). Lao had a spelling reform recently that dropped all the duplicate letters for Pali/Sanskrit words, there's no implied vowel (and they change form less), there's no การันต์ (◌์), and the final consonants are normalized to the sound it makes. Lao and Thai are asymmetrically intelligible where Lao people understand Thai but not the other way around. That said, the Northeastern Thai dialect, อีสาน, is almost identical with small dialectal differences. Grammatically they are the same so anything you learn in one will almost certainly transfer to the other with just a different vocabulary set for common words (to do, to work, I, you, man, woman, etc.).
Good luck and สู้ๆ นะ!
à â ç é è ê î ï ô ö ù
If I remember correctly shortcuts to change layout/language are by default Ctrl+Shift and Alt+Shift respectively (correct me if I'm wrong). These are incredibly annoying, especially in some games. Luckily though you can disable them from the settings. Instead there's Win+Space, which is a Godsend and should've always been the only default.
Fun fact: on Windows Polish programmer's keyboard you can use the Tilde key (Shift+Grave) to input Polish characters as well, e.g. press Shift+Grave (it won't put in any symbol at this point), release and then press 's' to input 'ś'. However it makes it problematic to input the tilde symbol itself, so I've modified my layout with the MS Keyboard Layout Creator to get rid of that functionality/flaw (aside from other minor improvements) https://www.microsoft.com/download/details.aspx?id=22339
I only use keyboards that have low-key travel and are silent - basically anything that resembles laptop keyboard.
EDIT: Sorry for sounding a bit harsh, but keyboard-without-numpad != mechanical keyboard, which are quite niche, I wasn't aware that a niche product has a also niche variation - lack of numpad :)
For me mechanical switches are a no-go :(
The shortcut to change was definitely something with Ctrl and Shift because I remember accidently switching layout when I was selecting text by whole words with Ctrl+Shift+Left/Right.
Tilde works funny on linux - it makes alternative version of every letter, not only from the current locale. I was accused of being a Russian pretending to be Polish on some Polish forum long ago because I wrote something with a Greek (or cyrylic?) letter by accident because I did something with home directory in the background and only pressed ~ once instead of twice :)
But it wasn't obvious when I was looking for one, i used "no numpad" or similar, and to complicate it I searched for one in Poland.
It is a bit harder to find non-mechanical (I love low key travel and silence) one and one that is wireless, which I prefer but I see there are ones :)
What line of work are you in? A cross between hardware and software?
If one is in pure software it seems extremely error-prone to be typing in numbers all the time manually.
Numbers on the top of qwerty are good for incidental numbers when entering text, but around 5 consecutive digits is enough for me to move.
Are they useful enough to add to a laptop keyboard? Probably not.
If your mouse is right-hand specific, try getting a ambidextrous one next time. Most of the ambidextrous mice these days are gaming mice, but they work fine for pushing cursors around too.
Laptop manufactures who don't offer keyboards without numpads, to me, care so little about their customers that their laptops aren't worth shit. I'm looking specifically are all laptops > 14" from system 76. If they want to be taken seriously as a manufacturer, they should consider a line of 15" or 16" laptops that aren't going to leave people in pain, considering changing careers. Of course, I only use the internal keyboard when absolutely necessary and can't use an external with an external display, and it still makes that big of a difference.
Ergonomics matter.
The strength of the mechanical market, the reason why it's getting bigger, is not that it's mechanical and "clicky"(that's the stereotype), but that it's customizable. All of it. Case, PCB, keyswitches, keycaps, stabilizers. If you don't like the switches stock, they can be relubricated and modded with rubber O-rings. If you want a dampened response the stabilizers and keycaps can be heavier. The hobby has developed from that over the last decade - being able to take the platform and "own" it.
Yes, you can get a low-profile scissor switch design and it'll be quiet and function for years. But it will also be unmaintainable and resist even basic cleaning.
I have to say low profile blue switches offer quite a nice typing experience though, quite comparable with scissor switches.
I am typing this on an old USB one that greatly resembles the keyboard on an X200 or T400 laptop. This old thing even has the little touchpad from those days and therefore identical palm rest areas. I also have a newer bluetooth unit that is just like my T495, minus the touchpad. I miss the touchpad even though I use the trackpoint for all pointer movement. I like to keep edge-scrolling enabled on the touchpad on my old keyboard as well as on my actual laptop.
One caveat is that the trackpoint acceleration profile seems different for these external devices, so switching back end forth between these and the built-in Thinkpad controls can feel clumsy while your fingers and eyes readjust.