zlacker

[parent] [thread] 46 comments
1. Press2+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-01 17:55:08
I think the real problem is that those two political parties represent factions of the population with incompatible values.

We don't need more political parties, we need solutions to manage the incompatibility.

replies(4): >>Consul+n >>sidibe+K1 >>Aviceb+U1 >>austin+FF
2. Consul+n[view] [source] 2020-06-01 17:56:41
>>Press2+(OP)
There was nothing incompatible about our values regarding what we saw in that video. The idea that there was a political divide about this incident is a myth. Even the openly racist people I know were saying it was fucked up.
replies(5): >>throwa+P7 >>Press2+7n >>makomk+qC >>rayine+8I >>scarfa+Ng1
3. sidibe+K1[view] [source] 2020-06-01 18:02:42
>>Press2+(OP)
I wonder if things would be better if there was some mandatory thing like jury duty where you had to go meet and hang out for an hour with a different randomly picked person every a month at some center where they'd have something for you to do so it's not 100% awkward.

I realize that's a terrible idea, but not sure of any way of changing people's attitudes towards each other when they'd rather stick to their little groups and believe the worst about everyone else.

replies(2): >>Aviceb+R2 >>Press2+Q3
4. Aviceb+U1[view] [source] 2020-06-01 18:03:26
>>Press2+(OP)
I think labeling the two sides as fundamentally incompatible is a real danger and quite possible a symptom of the two parties and not it's cause. I see enough similarity between the actions of both parties (maybe not as much their rhetoric) that I think if there is incompatibility, there is a deeper reason for it then "muh beliefs".
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5. Aviceb+R2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:07:19
>>sidibe+K1
My co-worker who once worked in an Amazon fulfillment center, said that it was the most diverse place in terms of groups represented that he had ever worked. Conversely he said it was the most segregated environment he had ever been in, with different groups strictly regulating their interaction with other groups, say at lunch, to what they were required to do by work. I know it's anecdota, but I still don't know where I can square this information with the interactions and conversations we are having today. Maybe one-on-one interactions are the way to go, no group tribalism going on.
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6. Press2+Q3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:12:02
>>sidibe+K1
I tend to think people's attitudes come from too much diversity rather than too little.

The most diverse places I've ever been are also the most visibly segregated and racially aware (but not in a good way). Meanwhile, I see the most tolerance for others in homogeneous places.

I wonder if this is borne out in any studies.

replies(1): >>sender+bV
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7. throwa+P7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:32:48
>>Consul+n
Even the police unions condemned it. It's literally the only thing we agree on, but certain people keep holding up this obviously false dichotomy that we can only care about this political violence or the Floyd murder.
replies(2): >>selimt+221 >>scarfa+Wg1
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8. Press2+7n[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:52:10
>>Consul+n
No, but there is a predictable political divide about the fallout.
replies(1): >>spagin+UD
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9. makomk+qC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 21:12:31
>>Consul+n
Yeah, pretty much everyone was on the same page about that. What was incredibly and predictably divisive is burning down cities as a response to it, and naturally the American media have been spending a lot of effort fanning those flames.
replies(1): >>Consul+UF
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10. spagin+UD[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 21:19:59
>>Press2+7n
Everyone has pretty much universally agreed that what the officers did was unacceptable. Even other Police. The officer was arrested, why things didn't move sooner was a local matter to take up with that mayor and that department. It should have been handled locally, not all departments are the same.

But you end up in a situation of further tragedy where people start destroying property and assaulting others, and they screwed up by doing so. The message has been diluted, lost in all the noise. Expanding it nationwide hasn't broadcast the message positively.

It's juvenile and short sighted, the people are on their side, saying yes this was wrong, yes this has to stop, murder is unacceptable, etc. They are now looking at the situation with a different viewpoint, asking themselves if the police violence may be justified with this group, look at what they did to our community when WE AGREED with them and were willing to help.

That isn't a political thought, that is a rational thought. Destroying communities, rioting, looting, killing people, it never brings more people into your corner. America is a civil society that respects law and order. Much of America now is just happy they don't have to live around anywhere where this is happening, that is going to be the only takeaway from this tragedy now. The chorus on social media doesn't reflect that. The riots turned average Americans against this event.

A barrier, metaphorically, was quickly slammed up between people, and now it's just noise and chaos.

replies(1): >>standa+gS
11. austin+FF[view] [source] 2020-06-01 21:27:07
>>Press2+(OP)
I disagree. I have never voted along party lines. I know there are stupid and insecure people who feel the need for echo chambers, like minded social groups, and other diversity destroying functions. That isn’t me or most people I know.

The more institutions gravitate towards factionalism, populism, or consolidation the less I trust them. I don’t need political parties to represent me. I am fully capable of forming my own opinions. I only need political parties to represent a diverse candidate pool and put pressure on other political parties.

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12. Consul+UF[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 21:28:25
>>makomk+qC
The worst part is not going to be the brutality that is coming when police/military put a stop to this. That will be horrific, but temporary.

Six months from now, is the average white American small business owner going to be more or less likely to hire a black person? That's the fucked up shit that is going to last another decade. That's the stuff that maintains generational poverty. And there's a thousand other subtle, unspoken things like that which are going to broaden our divide.

replies(2): >>makomk+8J >>mydong+Vb1
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13. rayine+8I[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 21:38:34
>>Consul+n
Yes, but the immediate aftermath of that showed deep disagreement about “what to do about that problem.” Leftists want to dismantle the “systems of oppression” they perceive produces that result. Libertarians want to get rid of qualified immunity and police unions. Conservatives are taken aback by the rioting and violence and for them the immediate need maintaining social order has overtaken the more long term desire to correct these abuses.
replies(2): >>mister+4M >>syshum+LT
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14. makomk+8J[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 21:44:21
>>Consul+UF
As far as I can tell, the people burning everything down aren't even particularly likely to be black, efforts to spin this as some kind of necessary fight back against racism by people who've been suffering not withstanding. The folks cheering it on and advocating for this to their audiences definitely aren't - they're largely white, middle-class techies and journos and other well-off educated folks who aren't worried about their own communities burning.

The real pain - at least on the inter-generational poverty and deprivation side - is that in six months, the average American small business isn't going to exist in heavily-black neighbourhoods, and that probably won't change much in six years, and other businesses are probably going to be pretty thin on the ground there too. Apparently some places never recovered what they lost in the sixties race riots.

Though I expect that the consequences of the police actions to stop this will also be anything but temporary. It seems to take years of careful work to rebuild trust between police and the community they serve, and to restructure policing to be less hostile and dangerous.

replies(2): >>Consul+hK >>austin+ZX
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15. Consul+hK[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 21:50:29
>>makomk+8J
I agree with you that it seems the people sparking the looting/fires/etc seem to be mostly white. I just don't think that will matter in the minds of the average person who barely watches the news. To the extent that they are watching anything, they will see tons of videos of black people committing crimes on social media.
replies(1): >>mydong+e71
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16. mister+4M[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 22:00:23
>>rayine+8I
I wonder how accurate these old standby run-of-the mill memes we repeat ad nauseum really are. What data are they based on, really? And even if they are true, might it be possible that people that hold these opinions hold them because they've never been involved in any serious in-depth analysis & discussion on the topics? There's not even that much serious, accurate, unbiased material out there to base such conversations on, and I sure as hell don't know of too many people who'd be interested in getting involved in such things if purely left up to their own volition.

Perhaps if we had some serious, organized, factual discussions on some of these matters (as opposed to the all propaganda all the time approach we've become so accustomed to), people wouldn't continue to hold the same opinions they (supposedly) hold at the moment.

replies(1): >>mister+nd1
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17. standa+gS[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 22:38:04
>>spagin+UD
Noise and chaos gets heard. You know what gets completely ignored in this country? Peaceful protest. The actions of the last week are far, far more likely to result in change than any mass protest. Just look at the anti-Iraq war protests - the largest protests in US history held in dozens of cities over months and accomplished precisely nothing at all. Civil rights, gay rights, women's right were all won with a lot more than voting and peaceful protest. A lot more.
replies(3): >>austin+h91 >>yaj54+kc1 >>spagin+tW3
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18. syshum+LT[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 22:45:24
>>rayine+8I
As normal, libertarians have the correct and rational solution to the problem :)
replies(3): >>Aviceb+4W >>rayine+uY >>harryh+KZ
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19. sender+bV[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 22:55:47
>>Press2+Q3
I've observed that racial stereotypes seem to be borne out more often than not in the urban environments I've lived in, because minorities there tend to be disproportionately poor and uneducated. So I share your skepticism that "diversity" per se is the answer to prejudice. Canada for example is much more white on the whole compared to the US, and far more tolerant on the whole. Ditto with Scandinavia etc.
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20. Aviceb+4W[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:02:21
>>syshum+LT
Please explain how just dismantling unions is the correct and rational solution? I'm less inclined to believe in qualified immunity, but I can see that it is based on a legitimate concern.
replies(1): >>syshum+pX
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21. syshum+pX[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:12:24
>>Aviceb+4W
1. police union contracts in major cities routinely include provisions that erase disciplinary records and obstruct meaningful discipline (let alone prosecution) of police officers who abuse their authority. [1]

2. the strong majority of these 656 contracts have a similar disciplinary appeals process. Around 73% provide for appeal to an arbitrator or comparable procedure and nearly 70% provide that an arbitrator or comparable third party makes a final binding decision. About 54% of the contracts give officers or unions the power to select that arbitrator. About 70% of the jurisdictions give these arbitrators extensive review power, including the ability to revisit disciplinary matters with little or no deference to the decisions made by supervisors, civilian review boards or politically accountable officials. [2]

3. We look at the roll-out of collective bargaining rights for police officers at the state level from the 1950s to the 1980s. The introduction of access to collective bargaining drives a modest decline in policy employment and increase in compensation with no meaningful impacts on total crime, violent crime, property crime or officers killed in the line of duty. What does change? We find a substantial increase in police killings of civilians over the medium to long run (likely after unions are established) with an additional 0.026 to 0.029 civilians killed in a county each year of whom the overwhelming majority are non-white. [3]

4. Recent academic research further demonstrates that police disciplinary procedures established through union contracts obstruct accountability and (as I noted in this post) collective bargaining for police officers appears to increase police misconduct. This is not surprising. Through collective bargaining, police unions demand protections from disciplinary procedures that would not otherwise be approved, oppose consent decrees and other measures to increase police accountability, and (given the power of police unions in state and local politics) they receive relatively little pushback. [4]

[1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-poli...

[2] https://crim.jotwell.com/the-power-of-police-unions/

[3] https://twitter.com/robgillezeau/status/1266834185055956997

[4] https://reason.com/2020/05/30/police-unions-and-the-problem-...

I could provide more as well, that was just a real quick look up of my bookmarks

Edit: 1 more source for good measure

[5] https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article...

  This  Article  empirically  demonstrates  that  police  departments’  internal   disciplinary   procedures,   often   established   through   the   collective   bargaining   process,   can   serve   as   barriers   to   officer   accountability.
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22. austin+ZX[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:16:37
>>makomk+8J
I have noticed only one common demographic among rioters: age.
replies(1): >>ativzz+Dp1
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23. rayine+uY[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:21:33
>>syshum+LT
I think the libertarians are basically right in this instance. Apart from systemic racism (which I believe is a very real thing, but an abstract and not directly unactionable one), I see two problems:

1) The people with the power over the police have almost no contact with the people being policed. Neighborhood schooling reinforces that problem. It ensures that ability to afford housing segregates black people from white people. (Note: it’s not a question of funding. Here in DC, most of the shiny new LEED Gold schools are 99% black. Therefore, white parents won’t send their kids there, notwithstanding the gleaming facilities and lower housing prices in the surrounding area.) School choice gives black people the power to create integrated schools, instead of waiting for statistically wealthier whites/Asians to get woke enough to want to do it. I think people would be much more sensitive to policing issues if they didn’t just hear about these things a couple of times a year on the news, but were faced with people in their PTA suffering the consequences of police brutality. I would add that, unsurprisingly, a decisive majority of black people support school choice.

2) With notion of black people being “the other” rooted since childhood, qualified immunity and police unions eliminate the near term, immediate consequences of acting on those instincts.

The two things that make people think before they act are empathy and self preservation. The libertarian approach is a double-barreled solution that could hit both.

replies(2): >>harryh+K01 >>selimt+i21
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24. harryh+KZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:31:02
>>syshum+LT
I think the libertarian suggestions are certainly part of the solution but I don't think they're sufficient on their own. History shows us that racism is remarkably resistant to market forces.
replies(2): >>Consul+y01 >>syshum+w11
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25. Consul+y01[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:36:04
>>harryh+KZ
It's not necessary to eliminate racism. Imagine if the citizens of a community had the power to pull some of their money away from ineffective police departments to hold them accountable. There could be competing police forces, all run by the government, and the citizens could fund the ones they prefer, not unlike charter schools allow parents to fund the schools they prefer, and food stamps allow the poor to buy the food they want from the grocery store they prefer.

If your police department sucks, but the one neighboring one is good, you could choose to move your funding to the other police department who would expand their operations to cover more territory.

replies(1): >>kasey_+U21
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26. harryh+K01[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:37:41
>>rayine+uY
I think that school choice can certainly help but there are limits. District 1 in NYC has a form of school choice but segregation persists and is even driven by minorities in some ways. This article is really interesting:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/07/nyregion/a-manhattan-dist...

It touches on two NYC schools that share a building (The Earth School & PS64) but have remarkably different racial and socioeconomic makeups. I found it fascinating after touring Earth School earlier this year.

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27. syshum+w11[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:42:58
>>harryh+KZ
Racism is not something that could even be solved with market forces, nor would any libertarian claim such a thing. At best we would say the market gives non-racists the best chance to isolate the push back against racists

History shows that if a society is racist the absolute WORST thing you can do is have a strong government, as that government will likely be filled with racists who will pass racist laws. (See The War on Drugs and/or Jim Crow Laws)

The idea that more government is the solution to racism denies the entire history of this nation. Government is not now, nor has it ever been the solution to the problem of racism (nor any other problem), Government is like it always has been and always will be the problem...

the Classic Libertarian saying "Government: If you think you have problems, wait until you see our [government] solutions"

replies(1): >>harryh+i61
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28. selimt+221[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:45:42
>>throwa+P7
Well, the Minneapolis police union president has just gone off the rails.
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29. selimt+i21[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:48:03
>>rayine+uY
We can all take a moment of silence to curse at Justice Burger, who while he may have done a good thing in Lemon v. Kurtzman, really screwed the pooch in Milliken v. Bradley
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30. kasey_+U21[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:53:52
>>Consul+y01
We had this with fire departments for thousands of years. It didn’t go well.
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31. harryh+i61[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 00:23:57
>>syshum+w11
How do you reconcile the fact that the US government is as big as it has ever been while at the same time we have made significant progress on racial issues? Further much of that progress was driven by government mandate: The Civil Rights acts, anti-discrimination laws for employment, affirmative action, etc.
replies(1): >>syshum+sf2
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32. mydong+e71[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 00:31:28
>>Consul+hK
What makes you believe that the looters are mostly white? I mean, the people you are talking against, they have all the video evidence they need of black people and others looting and causing destruction that they need. What do you have?

I'd really like to see some. I've been having some cognitive dissonance lately. Some portions of the media are telling me that the looters are white supremacists, but unless there are substantial amount of black/brown white supremacists in this country, the video evidence says otherwise...

replies(2): >>Consul+Sh1 >>mister+2j1
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33. austin+h91[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 00:47:18
>>standa+gS
There is no evidence of this. Disruption doesn’t work solely for the sake of being disruptive. If anything it just disenfranchises people resulting in opposite outcomes.
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34. mydong+Vb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 01:11:13
>>Consul+UF
I don't know why you single out white business owners. ALL business owners should be looking into social media history and criminal history of every person they want to hire. There's nothing racist about figuring out if your potential employee has previously taken part of riots and looting to make a hiring decision. It's fucked up indeed, but hey...they made their choices. Jordans and gucci now, future on hold.
replies(1): >>scarfa+fh1
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35. yaj54+kc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 01:14:31
>>standa+gS
@austincheney - Speaking as an American -- those in this country with the privilege of freedom have it because people have fought and died for it [0]. There actually aren't very many examples of people that have basic freedoms that have not at some point fought for it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

replies(1): >>austin+Xi1
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36. mister+nd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 01:22:13
>>mister+4M
It's quite amazing how unpopular facts and fact based discussions are.
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37. scarfa+Ng1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 01:51:40
>>Consul+n
After citing statistics right here on HN about how racial profiling and traffic stops and tickets targets minorities , people were making excuses because it didn’t affect them.

Right here on HN posts about the protests were being flagged left and right because people are more concerned about the freedom to side load apps on iOS than minorities getting harassed.

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38. scarfa+Wg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 01:52:43
>>throwa+P7
They don’t have any choice once it is filmed. They weren’t condemning all the misconduct by the same officer that wasn’t filmed.
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39. scarfa+fh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 01:54:50
>>mydong+Vb1
Looking into “criminal history” might be fine if the justice system didn’t systematically make sure minorities get harsher sentences than Whites.
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40. Consul+Sh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 01:59:01
>>mydong+e71
The operative word in what I said was "sparking". It was a white guy who broke the glass at autozone, which kicked off the looting in Minneapolis. It was a white guy who was breaking up the sidewalk so people had rocks to throw before other protesters tackled him and handed him over to police. It was white guys who "stumbled upon" a bunch of bricks in one video and unwrapped them. Those are just the examples off the top of my head.
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41. austin+Xi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 02:06:51
>>yaj54+kc1
I am aware more than most. I am a warrant officer in the US Army entering my 5th overseas deployment.
replies(1): >>User23+hB1
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42. mister+2j1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 02:07:31
>>mydong+e71
Small but important distinction: the people sparking the looting/fires/etc seem to be mostly white.

And the only place you're going to have a chance to see the truth on this is in conspiracy forums and on Twitter. How trustworthy is it? Well, it is typically video footage, and it is highly unlikely to be coordinated reporting, so judge for yourself how seriously you want to trust it. But I have watched and read lots on this, and anything I have seen is that the people stirring up shit and instigating violence or destruction, are white, and the people trying to stop them verbally or physically, are black or white.

Here is a good livestream that typically shows 5 to 9 streams simultaneously, depending on where the action is. This is as close to knowing reality as you are going to get. If you watch the "trustworthy" news media, you are maybe going to get some very small amount of truth, but you also run a very big chance of getting a framed version of reality that is often the opposite of what is true.

Look for yourself, think for yourself. Do not outsource these things to authorities who have well demonstrated that they are untrustworthy.

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43. ativzz+Dp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 03:04:52
>>austin+ZX
Rioters are almost always young. Especially now, when many young people are unemployed (Corona) or out of school for the summer.
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44. User23+hB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 05:07:44
>>austin+Xi1
I thought that was mostly a navy thing these days. If you don't mind my asking, what kind of jobs does the Army have warrant officers do?
replies(1): >>austin+ob2
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45. austin+ob2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 11:30:43
>>User23+hB1
I am a signal (telecommunications) officer.

First deployment (Dec 2003-Dec 2004, E6) I ran the operations floor during night shift in 335th Theater Signal Command, which put me in charge of up time and status for all voice and digital communications in Kuwait, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

Second (Jul 2009-Jul 2010, E6) I travel across Afghanistan performing information security audits of major and minor US Army bases. I was able to pick up my CISSP at the end of this.

Third (Dec 2012-Jan 2013, E7) I was NCOIC of Knowledge Management for 311th Sustainment Command in Afghanistan where I trained and coordinated with 24 staff sections to increase their information transparency and produce common/integrated products.

Fourth (Oct 2018-July 2019, CW2) I was chief of network operations for the 300th Sustainment Brigade in Kuwait.

Fifth, I will be there soon.

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46. syshum+sf2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 12:15:30
>>harryh+i61
>> same time we have made significant progress on racial issues?

Have we? the current riots / protest seem to indicate not.

>Further much of that progress was driven by government mandate: The Civil Rights acts, anti-discrimination laws for employment, affirmative action, etc.

There is / was a double edge sword to many of those issues. For example more than 50% of the civil rights act was rolling back and repealing racist government laws and regulations. People seem to have this perception that the population was racist and the government saved the day when in reality the government was racist and then rolled back some (not all) of their racist policies.

So the 60's you have the Civil Rights acts, then what do we see in the 70's and 80's? The War on Drugs, and "Tough on Crime" laws that were disproportionately enforced and impacted poor and minority communities. This trend continues to today with continues sentencing disparity, mandatory minimums, and various other things that at a minimum are Class based enforcement if not outright racist enforcement of law

So I can easily reconcile my position that government is the problem because that is a factually accurate analysis of the history of law in this nation

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47. spagin+tW3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 21:40:06
>>standa+gS
My child screams at me that he wants candy for dinner.

He throws a tantrum, screams, yell, slams his hand against the counter. Throws his toys, tells me he hates me.

It's noise and chaos. It doesn't go ignored, but it also isn't allowed. It isn't a compelling way to get me to give them what they want, unless I'm a bad parent with no direction and structure. Civility, good behavior, that gets noticed positively.

You don't understand the problem, you are emotionally invested in this, which is why you think harming innocent people is an avenue to positive change. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

In our system, you protest to raise awareness, to gain positive traction in the public awareness, you then vote and work within the system to enact the real mechanisms of change. When done with compassion, it brings everyone on board to your cause, even if a few bitch and moan about it.

Martin Luther King Jr. knew this. If you think physically harming others and their property, street mob justice, if you think this is an avenue to positive change, you don't understand our system.

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