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1. infota+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-05-20 22:51:19
It’s definitely sketchy (classic OpenAI) But my question is: is what they did actually illegal? Can someone copyright their own voice?
replies(9): >>automa+S >>foota+o1 >>duskwu+K1 >>emmp+R1 >>aaronh+Y1 >>crazyg+D2 >>kcplat+fj >>simons+5n >>bl4ker+wP
2. automa+S[view] [source] 2024-05-20 22:56:45
>>infota+(OP)
In the United States, likeness rights vary by state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights
3. foota+o1[view] [source] 2024-05-20 22:58:58
>>infota+(OP)
I think this will fall under what are termed personality rights, and the answer varies by state within the US.
4. duskwu+K1[view] [source] 2024-05-20 23:00:52
>>infota+(OP)
It's not precisely copyright, but most states recognize some form of personality rights, which encompass a person's voice just as much as the person's name or visual appearance.
replies(1): >>bhhask+c5
5. emmp+R1[view] [source] 2024-05-20 23:01:08
>>infota+(OP)
There are two similar famous cases I know offhand. Probably there are more.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midler_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

Bette Middler successfully sued Ford for impersonating her likeness in a commercial.

Then also:

https://casetext.com/case/waits-v-frito-lay-inc

Tom Waits successfully sued Frito Lay for using an imitator without approval in a radio commercial.

The key seems to be that if someone is famous and their voice is distinctly attributeable to them, there is a case. In both of these cases, the artists in question were also solicited first and refused.

replies(5): >>npunt+C5 >>dralle+Ua >>hooloo+Xa >>kcplat+Kj >>yread+601
6. aaronh+Y1[view] [source] 2024-05-20 23:02:14
>>infota+(OP)
I’m not a lawyer and don’t have any deep background this area of IP, but there is at least some precedent apparently:

> In a novel case of voice theft, a Los Angeles federal court jury Tuesday awarded gravel-throated recording artist Tom Waits $2.475 million in damages from Frito-Lay Inc. and its advertising agency.

> The U.S. District Court jury found that the corn chip giant unlawfully appropriated Waits’ distinctive voice, tarring his reputation by employing an impersonator to record a radio ad for a new brand of spicy Doritos corn chips.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-05-09-me-238-st...

7. crazyg+D2[view] [source] 2024-05-20 23:04:20
>>infota+(OP)
Yes, absolutely illegal. You don't need to copyright anything, you simply own the rights your own likeness -- your visual appearance and your voice.

A company can't take a photo from your Facebook and plaster it across an advertisement for their product without you giving them the rights to do that.

And if you're a known public figure, this includes lookalikes and soundalikes as well. You can't hire a ScarJo impersonator that people will think is ScarJo.

This is clearly a ScarJo soundalike. It doesn't matter whether it's an AI voice or clone or if they hired someone to sound just like her. Because she's a known public figure, that's illegal if she hasn't given them the rights.

(However, if you generate a synthetic voice that just happens to sound exactly like a random Joe Schmo, it's allowed because Joe Schmo isn't a public figure, so there's no value in the association.)

replies(3): >>zooq_a+o3 >>nickth+v4 >>howbad+Ed
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8. zooq_a+o3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-20 23:09:09
>>crazyg+D2
But is that Scarlett Jo or Producers of Her that own the copyright?

If you imitate Darth Vader, I don't think James Earl Jones has as much case for likeliness as Star Wars franchise

replies(2): >>cerule+v5 >>crazyg+D5
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9. nickth+v4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-20 23:13:48
>>crazyg+D2
If they didn’t use her actual voice for the training, didn’t hire voice talent to imitate her, didnt pursue her for a voice contract, didn’t make a reference to the movie in which she voices an AI, I feel OpenAI would have been on more stable legal footing. But they aren’t playing with a strong hand now and folded fast.
replies(2): >>rockem+Pd >>GuB-42+oo
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10. bhhask+c5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-20 23:17:54
>>duskwu+K1
But where it will get murky is people sound like other people. Most voices are hardly unique. It will be interesting to see where this lands.
replies(2): >>ocdtre+d9 >>tivert+zM
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11. cerule+v5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-20 23:20:03
>>zooq_a+o3
James Earl Jones sold his voice rights to Disney a couple of years ago, so they can continue to use an AI likeness of his voice for future movies. https://ambadar.com/insights/james-earl-jones-signs-off-his-...
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12. npunt+C5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-20 23:20:49
>>emmp+R1
Also Crispin Glover's case in Back to the Future II

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/bac...

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13. crazyg+D5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-20 23:20:53
>>zooq_a+o3
It's both.

If you just want ScarJo's (or James Earl Jones') voice, you need the rights from them. Period.

If you want to reuse the character of her AI bot from the movie (her name, overall personality, tone, rhythm, catchphrases, etc.), or the character of Darth Vader, you also need to license that from the producers.

And also from ScarJo/Jones if you want the same voice to accompany the character. (Unless they've sold all rights for future re-use to the producers, which won't usually be the case, because they want to be paid for sequels.)

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14. ocdtre+d9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-20 23:44:49
>>bhhask+c5
It isn't murky, because law is about intent more than result. It doesn't matter if they hired someone who sounds like Scarlett, it matters if they intended to do so.

If they accidentally hired someone who sounds identical, that's not illegal. But if they intended to, even if it is a pretty poor imitation, it would be illegal because the intent to do it was there.

A court of law would be looking for things like emails about what sort of actress they were looking for, how they described that requirement, how they evaluated the candidate and selected her, and of course, how the CEO announced it alongside a movie title Scarlett starred in.

replies(1): >>howbad+fm
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15. dralle+Ua[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-20 23:53:02
>>emmp+R1
What if the imitator is clearly an imitator? e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvF0l8RUGQ8
replies(1): >>gcanyo+re
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16. hooloo+Xa[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-20 23:53:21
>>emmp+R1
Both cases seem to have also borrowed from the artists’ songs too however. That could perhaps make a difference.
replies(1): >>pseuda+5f
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17. howbad+Ed[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 00:11:23
>>crazyg+D2
Scarlet owns the voice of a stranger that happens to sound like her? That seems absurd.

Just find someone who sounds like her, then hire them for the rights to their voice.

replies(2): >>callal+3f >>planed+c91
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18. rockem+Pd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 00:12:19
>>nickth+v4
You're 100% correct and there's precedent

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midler_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

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19. gcanyo+re[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 00:15:53
>>dralle+Ua
That's weird -- I would think Morgan Freeman would be able to sue over that, but I Am Not An Intellectual Property Lawyer.
replies(1): >>kelnos+cM
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20. callal+3f[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 00:20:19
>>howbad+Ed
It’s really hard to assume in good faith that you are unfamiliar with the concept of impersonation. Just in case: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impersonator

There is no doubt that the hired actor was an impersonator, this was explicitly stated by scama himself.

replies(4): >>howbad+Ql >>sneak+aq >>warche+At >>tivert+FL
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21. pseuda+5f[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 00:20:23
>>hooloo+Xa
Bette Midler and Tom Waits didn't control their songs when they sued the companies.
replies(1): >>hooloo+Ah
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22. hooloo+Ah[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 00:34:58
>>pseuda+5f
But it makes it more likely that the listener will associate the commercial with the artist than just using the voice.
replies(2): >>deprec+rC >>pseuda+1E
23. kcplat+fj[view] [source] 2024-05-21 00:45:29
>>infota+(OP)
The problem is they pursued, was rejected, then approximated. Had they just approximated and made no references to the movie…then I bet social marketing would have made the connection organically and neither Ms Johansson or the Her producers would have much ground because they could reasonably claim that it was just a relatively generic woman’s voice with a faint NY/NJ accent.
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24. kcplat+Kj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 00:48:57
>>emmp+R1
You would have to argue the distinctiveness of the voice (if they hadn’t already pursued her to do it). Tom Waits…that’s pretty distinct voice. Scarlett Johansson…not so much
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25. howbad+Ql[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 01:02:21
>>callal+3f
The variance in voice is not that great. Just find someone who is very close to her voice naturally.
replies(1): >>airstr+Gp
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26. howbad+fm[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 01:07:07
>>ocdtre+d9
Under what legal theory is intending to do something which is legal (hiring a person that has a voice you want) becomes illegal because there is another person who has a similar voice?
replies(1): >>ocdtre+gn
27. simons+5n[view] [source] 2024-05-21 01:13:31
>>infota+(OP)
This is known as personality rights or right to publicity. Impersonating someone famous (eg faking their likeness or voice for an ad) is often illegal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights

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28. ocdtre+gn[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 01:14:28
>>howbad+fm
It's not intending to do something legal, it's intending to do something illegal: Stealing their likeness. The fact you used an otherwise legal procedure to do the illegal activity doesn't make it less illegal.
replies(1): >>howbad+fv
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29. GuB-42+oo[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 01:26:23
>>nickth+v4
Not only that but they didn't credit the voice actress who sounds like her. If she was semi-famous and just naturally sounded like Scarlett Johansson, maybe they could have an argument: "it is not Scarlett, it is the famous [C-list actress] who worked in [production some people may know]".
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30. airstr+Gp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 01:36:50
>>howbad+Ql
Doesn't matter if the intent is to make the listener think they're hearing ScarJo
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31. sneak+aq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 01:41:04
>>callal+3f
I missed that; where did he say that?
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32. warche+At[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 02:14:32
>>callal+3f
It’s just that her voice by itself is relatively unremarkable. Someone like say, Morgan freeman, or Barack Obama, someone with a distinctive vocal delivery, that’s one thing. Scarlett Johansson, I couldn’t place her voice out of a lineup. I’m sure it’s pleasant I just can’t think of it.
replies(1): >>llamai+Ru
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33. llamai+Ru[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 02:26:26
>>warche+At
Scarlett Johansson does absolutely have a distinctive and very famous voice. I wouldn’t take your own ignorance (not meant disparagingly) as evidence otherwise.

That’s why she was the voice actor for the AI voice in Her.

replies(2): >>serf+zT >>warche+9h6
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34. howbad+fv[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 02:31:26
>>ocdtre+gn
How can something be illegal if every step towards the objective is legal? This would result in an incoherent legal system where selective prosecution/corruption is trivial.
replies(2): >>ocdtre+Pw >>jcranm+AI
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35. ocdtre+Pw[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 02:48:32
>>howbad+fv
It is legal to buy a gun, and legal to fire a gun, and it can even be legal to fire a gun at someone who is threatening to kill you in the moment, but if you fire a gun at someone with the intention of killing someone that happens to be very, very illegal.
replies(1): >>howbad+oz
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36. howbad+oz[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 03:13:43
>>ocdtre+Pw
Very well. But in this case the end goal is the end of someone's unique life.

In the case of acquiring a likeness, if it's done legally you acquire someone else's likeness that happens to be shared with your target.

The likeness is shared and non-unique.

If you objective is to take someone's life, there is no other pathway to the objective but their life. With likeness that isn't the case.

replies(2): >>kelnos+DM >>tivert+OM
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37. deprec+rC[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 03:45:40
>>hooloo+Ah
True to an extent. I'd argue that celebrity of a certain level would make one's voice recognizable and thus confusion can happen.
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38. pseuda+1E[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 04:00:36
>>hooloo+Ah
The Midler v. Ford decision said her voice was distinctive. Not the song.

OpenAI didn't just use a voice like Scarlett Johansson's. They used it in an AI system they wanted people to associate with AI from movies and the movie where Johansson played an AI particularly.[1][2]

[1] https://blog.samaltman.com/gpt-4o

[2] https://x.com/sama/status/1790075827666796666

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39. jcranm+AI[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 04:47:27
>>howbad+fv
What's illegal, in general, is not the action itself but the intent to do an action and the steps taken in furtherance of that intent.

Hiring someone with a voice you want isn't illegal; hiring someone with a voice you want because it is similar to a voice that someone expressly denied you permission to use is illegal.

Actually, it's so foundational to the common law legal system that there's a specialized Latin term to represent the concept: mens rea (literally 'guilty mind').

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40. tivert+FL[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 05:18:47
>>callal+3f
> There is no doubt that the hired actor was an impersonator, this was explicitly stated by scama himself.

And here's some caselaw where another major corporation got smacked down for doing the exact same thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midler_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

But given how unscrupulous Sam Altman appears to be, I wouldn't be surprised if OpenAI hired an impersonator as some kind half-ass legal cover, and went about using Johansson's voice anyway. Tech people do stupid shut sometimes because they assume they're so much cleverer than everyone else.

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41. kelnos+cM[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 05:23:10
>>gcanyo+re
I feel like that's a little different. In the cases of Midler, Waits, and Johansson, the companies involved wanted to use their voices, were turned down, and then went with an imitator to make it seem to the audience that the celebrity was actually performing. In the case of this "Morgan Freeman" video, Freeman himself is very obviously not performing: the imitator appears on screen, so it's explicitly acknowledged in the ad.

But I'm not a lawyer of any sort either, so... ::shrug::

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42. tivert+zM[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 05:26:30
>>bhhask+c5
> But where it will get murky is people sound like other people. Most voices are hardly unique. It will be interesting to see where this lands.

Yes, it will be interesting in June 1988 when we will find out "where this lands": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midler_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

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43. kelnos+DM[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 05:27:11
>>howbad+oz
So? You're merely (correctly) pointing out that the acts have consequences that are of wildly differing severity. Not that one is a legal and the other is not.
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44. tivert+OM[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 05:29:05
>>howbad+oz
OpenAI should hire you as their lawyer.
45. bl4ker+wP[view] [source] 2024-05-21 06:00:47
>>infota+(OP)
Not here to weigh in on the answers to these questions. But it certainly feels pretty scary to have to ask such questions about a company leading the LLM space, considering the U.S. currently has little to no legal infrastructure to reign in these companies.

Plus the tone of the voice is likely an unimportant detail to theor success. So pushing up against the legal boundaries in this specific domain is at best strange and at worst a huge red flag for their ethics and how they operate.

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46. serf+zT[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 06:44:13
>>llamai+Ru
>That’s why she was the voice actor for the AI voice in Her.

She was used in Her because she has a dry/monotone/lifeless form of diction that at the time seemed like a decent stand-in for an non-human AI.

IMDB is riddled with complaints about his vocal-style/diction/dead-pan on every one of her movies. Ghost World, Ghost in the Shell, Lost in Translation, Comic-Book-Movie-1-100 -- take a line from one movie and dub it across the character of another and most people would be fooled, that's impressive given the breadth of quality/style/age across the movies.

When she was first on the scene I thought it was bad acting, but then it continued -- now I tend to think that it's an effort to cultivate a character personality similar to Steven Wright or Tom Waits; the fact that she's now litigating towards protection of her character and likeness reinforces that fact for me.

It's unique to her though , that's for sure.

replies(1): >>kristi+Oh1
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47. yread+601[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 07:57:26
>>emmp+R1
The Tom Waits case had a payout of 2.6 million for services with fair market cost of 100k. What would it cost openai to train chatgpt using her voice? Is she also going to get a payout 26 times that? That GPU budget is starting to look inexpensive...
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48. planed+c91[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 09:09:24
>>howbad+Ed
Impersonating is defined by intent. "Just find someone who sounds like her" implies intent.
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49. kristi+Oh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-21 10:13:56
>>serf+zT
>She was used in Her because she has a dry/monotone/lifeless form of diction that at the time seemed like a decent stand-in for an non-human AI

Do you have a source for this?

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50. warche+9h6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-22 19:57:07
>>llamai+Ru
You know I took some time to compare versus just reading the analysis and in particular I listened to the OpenAI demo and a scene from “her”.

Yeah not moving from my position at all. Just a very generic featureless female voice. I suppose I hear some similarities in timbre, but it’s such an unremarkable voice and diction that it’s hard to put your finger on anything past “generic low affect American alto”.

It’s a great computer voice. Taking it down is for sure the right call PR wise, regardless of whether they may have done.

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