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[parent] [thread] 36 comments
1. jp57+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-05-17 23:02:50
The only way I can see this being a valid contract is if the equity grant that they get to keep is a new grant offered the time of signing the exit contract. Any vested equity given as compensation for work could not then be offered again as consideration for signing a new agreement.

Maybe the agreement is "we will accelerate vesting of your unvested equity if you sign this new agreement"? If that's the case then it doesn't sound nearly so coercive to me.

replies(2): >>apsec1+b >>DebtDe+v9
2. apsec1+b[view] [source] 2024-05-17 23:04:22
>>jp57+(OP)
It's not. The earlier tweets explain: the initial agreement says the employee must sign a "general release" or forfeit the equity, and then the general release they are asked to sign includes a lifetime no-criticism clause.
replies(7): >>ethbr1+w >>w10-1+02 >>Melato+D2 >>Animat+85 >>beastm+06 >>bradle+P7 >>DesiLu+89
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3. ethbr1+w[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-17 23:07:40
>>apsec1+b
IOW, this is burying the illegal part in a tangential document, in hopes of avoiding legal scrutiny and/or judgement.

They're really lending employees equity, subject to the company's later feelings as to whether the employee should be allowed to keep or sell it.

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4. w10-1+02[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-17 23:21:51
>>apsec1+b
But a general release is not a non-criticism clause.

They're not required to sign anything other than a general release of liability when they leave to preserve their rights. They don't have to sign a non-disparagement clause.

But they'd need a very good lawyer to be confident at that time.

replies(1): >>User23+F3
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5. Melato+D2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-17 23:28:53
>>apsec1+b
I'm no lawyer but this sounds like something that would not go well for OpenAI if strongly litigated
replies(2): >>mrj+e5 >>fuzzte+zk
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6. User23+F3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-17 23:37:16
>>w10-1+02
And they won’t have that equity available to borrow against to pay for that lawyer either.
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7. Animat+85[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-17 23:51:44
>>apsec1+b
That's when you need a lawyer.

In general, an agreement to agree is not an agreement. A requirement for a "general release" to be signed at some time in the future is iffy. And that's before labor law issues.

Someone with a copy of that contract should run it through OpenAI's contract analyzer.

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8. mrj+e5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-17 23:52:25
>>Melato+D2
Yeah, courts have generally found that this is "under duress" and not enforceable.
replies(1): >>single+i6
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9. beastm+06[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-17 23:59:36
>>apsec1+b
ITT: a bunch of laymen thinking their 2 second proposal will outlawyer the team of lawyers who drafted these.
replies(3): >>throwa+I6 >>jprete+J7 >>mminer+8a
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10. single+i6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 00:02:48
>>mrj+e5
Under duress in the contractual world is generally interpreted as “you are about to be killed or maimed.” Economic duress is distinct.
replies(1): >>to11mt+gb
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11. throwa+I6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 00:07:45
>>beastm+06
You haven't worked with many contracts, have you? Unenforceable clauses are the norm, most people are willing to follow them rather than risk having to fight them in court.
replies(1): >>to11mt+sb
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12. jprete+J7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 00:18:25
>>beastm+06
Lawyers are 100% capable of knowingly crafting unenforceable agreements.
replies(1): >>riwsky+o9
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13. bradle+P7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 00:20:08
>>apsec1+b
The earlier tweets explain …

What a horrific medium of communication. Why anyone uses it is beyond me.

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14. DesiLu+89[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 00:32:00
>>apsec1+b
somebody explained to me early on that you cannot have a contract to have a contract. either initial agreement must state this condition clearly or they are signing another contract at employment termination which is bringing these new terms. IDK why would anyone sign that at termination unless they dangle additional equity. I dont think this BS they are trying to pull would be enforceable at least in California. though IANAL obviously.

all this said, in bigger picture I can understand not divulging trade secrets but not being allowed to discuss company culture towards AI safety essentially tells me that all the Sama talk about the 'for the good of humanity' is total BS. at the end of day its about market share and bottom line.

replies(1): >>hughes+oc
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15. riwsky+o9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 00:36:05
>>jprete+J7
You don’t need to out-litigate the bear,
16. DebtDe+v9[view] [source] 2024-05-18 00:36:30
>>jp57+(OP)
My initial reaction was "Hold up - your RSUs vest, you sell the shares and pocket the cash, you quit OpenAI, a few years later you disparage them, and then when? They somehow try and claw back the equity? How? At what value? There's no way this can work." Then I remembered that OpenAI "equity" doesn't take the form of an RSU or option or anything else that can be converted into an actual share ever. What they call "equity" is a "Profit Participation Unit (PPU)" that once vested entitles you to a share of their profits. They don't share the equivalent of a Cap Table with employees, so there's no way to tell what sort of ownership interest a PPU represents. And of course, it's unlikely OpenAI will ever turn a profit (which if they did would be capped anyway). So this is all just play money anyway.
replies(3): >>cdchn+wa >>whimsi+od >>ec1096+lg
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17. mminer+8a[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 00:42:38
>>beastm+06
I am a lawyer. This is not just a general release, and I have no idea how OpenAI's lawyers expect this to be legal.
replies(2): >>listen+hd >>ethbr1+Lh
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18. cdchn+wa[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 00:48:10
>>DebtDe+v9
Wow. Smart for them. Former employees are behooved to the company for an actual perpetuity. Sounds like a raw deal but when the potential gains are that big, I guess you'll agree to pretty much anything.
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19. to11mt+gb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 00:59:02
>>single+i6
Duress can take other forms, unless we are really trying to differentiate general 'coercion' here.

Perhaps as an example of the blurred line; Pre-nup agreements sprung the day of the wedding, will not hold up in a US court with a competent lawyer challenging them.

You can try to call it 'economic' duress but any non-sociopath sees there are other factors at play.

replies(1): >>single+tk1
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20. to11mt+sb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 01:00:45
>>throwa+I6
Bingo.

I have seen a lot of companies put unenforceable stuff into their employment agreements, separation agreements, etc.

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21. hughes+oc[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 01:10:55
>>DesiLu+89
Canceling my openai subscription as we speak, this is too much. I don't care how good it is relative to other offerings. Not worth it.
replies(2): >>lansti+1e >>DesiLu+gy
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22. listen+hd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 01:23:11
>>mminer+8a
Have you read the actual document or contracts? Opining on stuff you haven't actually read seems premature. Read the contract, then tell us which clause violates which statute, that's useful.
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23. whimsi+od[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 01:25:11
>>DebtDe+v9
This is wrong on multiple levels. (to be clear I don't work at OAI)

> They don't share the equivalent of a Cap Table with employees, so there's no way to tell what sort of ownership interest a PPU represents

It is known - it represents 0 ownership share. They do not want to sell any ownership because their deal with MS gives MS 49% ownership and they don't want MS to be able to buy up additional stake and control the company.

> And of course, it's unlikely OpenAI will ever turn a profit (which if they did would be capped anyway). So this is all just play money anyway.

Putting aside your unreasonable confidence that OAI will never be profitable, the PPUs are tender offered so they can be sold to institutional investors up to a very high limit, OAIs current tender offer round values them at ~$80b iirc

replies(2): >>almost+Bk >>DebtDe+Hs1
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24. lansti+1e[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 01:32:09
>>hughes+oc
Claude is better anyways (at least for math classes.
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25. ec1096+lg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 02:05:19
>>DebtDe+v9
Their profit is capped at $1T, which is amount no company has ever achieved.
replies(1): >>arthur+0k
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26. ethbr1+Lh[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 02:25:02
>>mminer+8a
Out of curiosity, what are the penalties for putting unenforceable stuff in an employment contract?

Are there any?

replies(1): >>sangno+tp
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27. arthur+0k[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 03:04:56
>>ec1096+lg
No company? Are you sure? Aramco?
replies(1): >>saalwe+ok
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28. saalwe+ok[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 03:13:40
>>arthur+0k
Apple has spent $650 billion on stock buybacks in the last decade.

Granted, that might be most of the profit they have made, but still, they're probably at at least 0.7T$ so far. I bet they'll break $1T eventually.

replies(1): >>oblio+iq
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29. fuzzte+zk[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 03:18:39
>>Melato+D2
>I'm no lawyer

Have any (startup or other) lawyers chimed in here?

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30. almost+Bk[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 03:18:41
>>whimsi+od
> Note at offer time candidates do not know how many PPUs they will be receiving or how many exist in total. This is important because it’s not clear to candidates if they are receiving 1% or 0.001% of profits for instance. Even when giving options, some startups are often unclear or simply do not share the total number of outstanding shares. That said, this is generally considered bad practice and unfavorable for employees. Additionally, tender offers are not guaranteed to happen and the cadence may also not be known.

> PPUs also are restricted by a 2-year lock, meaning that if there’s a liquidation event, a new hire can’t sell their units within their first 2 years. Another key difference is that the growth is currently capped at 10x. Similar to their overall company structure, the PPUs are capped at a growth of 10 times the original value. So in the offer example above, the candidate received $2M worth of PPUs, which means that their capped amount they could sell them for would be $20M

> The most recent liquidation event we’re aware of happened during a tender offer earlier this year. It was during this event that some early employees were able to sell their profit participation units. It’s difficult to know how often these events happen and who is allowed to sell, though, as it’s on company discretion.

This NDA wrinkle is another negative. Honestly I think the entire OpenAI compensation model is smoke and mirrors which is normal for startups and obviously inferior to RSUs.

https://www.levels.fyi/blog/openai-compensation.html

replies(1): >>whimsi+gm
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31. whimsi+gm[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 03:53:01
>>almost+Bk
> Additionally, tender offers are not guaranteed to happen and the cadence may also not be known. > PPUs also are restricted by a 2-year lock, meaning that if there’s a liquidation event, a new hire can’t sell their units within their first 2 years.

i know for a fact that these bits are inaccurate, but i don't want to go into the details.

the profit share is not known but you are told what the PPUs were valued at the most recent tender offer

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32. sangno+tp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 04:58:14
>>ethbr1+Lh
Typically there is no penalty - and contracts explicitly declare that all clauses are severable so that the rest of the contract remains valid even if one of the scare-clauses is found to be invalid. IANAL
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33. oblio+iq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 05:16:19
>>saalwe+ok
Based on this they've had $1tn profits since 2009: https://companiesmarketcap.com/apple/earnings/
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34. DesiLu+gy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 07:25:08
>>hughes+oc
same I cancelled mine months ago. Claude is much better for coding anyway.
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35. single+tk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 16:09:37
>>to11mt+gb
That’s a really good point. Was this a prenuptial agreement? If it wasn’t May take is section 174 would apply and we would be talking about physical compulsion — and not “it’s a preferable economic situation to sign.”

Not a sociopath, just know the law.

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36. DebtDe+Hs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 17:41:12
>>whimsi+od
You're not saying anything that in any way contradicts my original post. Here, I'll simplify it - OpenAI's PPUs are not in any sense of the word "equity" in OpenAI, they are simply a subordinated claim to an unknown % of a hypothetical future profit.
replies(1): >>whimsi+zu1
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37. whimsi+zu1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 17:55:52
>>DebtDe+Hs1
> there's no way to tell what sort of ownership interest a PPU represents

Wrong. We know - it is 0, this directly contradicts your claim.

> this is all just play money anyway.

Again, wrong - because it is sellable so employees can take home millions. Play money in the startup world means illiquid options that can't be tender offered.

You're making it sound like this is a terrible deal for employees but I personally know people who are able to sell $1m+ in OAI PPUs to institutional investors as part of the tender offer.

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