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[parent] [thread] 50 comments
1. dkjaud+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-03-01 17:27:57
The replies that say "well the profits go to the non-profit, all's good" miss the reality of these high profit nonprofits: the profits invariably end up in the pockets of management. Most of those are essentially scams, but it doesn't mean that OpenAI isn't just a more subtle scam.

The hype and the credulity of the general public play right into this scam. People will more or less believe anything Sam the Money Gushing Messiah says because the neat demos keep flowing. The question is what's we've lost in all this, which no-one really thinks about.

replies(6): >>emoden+51 >>samsta+61 >>romero+c4 >>matt-p+Uc >>treflo+og >>tehjok+pj
2. emoden+51[view] [source] 2024-03-01 17:32:13
>>dkjaud+(OP)
If your beef with this structure is that executives get paid handsomely I have bad news about the entire category of nonprofits, regardless of whether they have for-profit arms or not.
replies(7): >>nerdpo+z1 >>dkjaud+B3 >>dasil0+C3 >>cobert+K4 >>rvba+f5 >>billyw+eb >>mcint+Rj
3. samsta+61[view] [source] 2024-03-01 17:32:24
>>dkjaud+(OP)
"Why is the NFL a non-profit:

https://www.publicsource.org/why-is-the-nfl-a-nonprofit/

The total revenue of the NFL has been steadily increasing over the years, with a significant drop in 2020 due to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic12. Here are some figures:

    2001: $4 billion

    2010: $8.35 billion

    2019: $15 billion

    2020: $12.2 billion

    2021: $17.19 billion

    2022: $18 billion
replies(5): >>sfmz+E2 >>swashe+g3 >>zelias+u6 >>Solven+Yg >>necove+oi
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4. nerdpo+z1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:35:09
>>emoden+51
I think they're making the same point as you: "nonprofit" is usually a scam to enrich executives anyway.
replies(1): >>Walter+Lh
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5. sfmz+E2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:40:02
>>samsta+61
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-ends-tax-exempt-statu...

Every dollar of income generated through television rights fees, licensing agreements, sponsorships, ticket sales, and other means is earned by the 32 clubs and is taxable there. This will remain the case even when the league office and Management Council file returns as taxable entities, and the change in filing status will make no material difference to our business.

replies(1): >>samsta+co
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6. swashe+g3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:42:51
>>samsta+61
> Update April 28, 2015: In the midst of several National Football League scandals last October, PublicSource asked freelance writer Patrick Doyle to take a look at the nonprofit status of the league. On April 28, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell said the league will no longer be tax exempt, eliminating a “distraction.”

no longer a non-profit but no less hypocritical

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7. dkjaud+B3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:44:55
>>emoden+51
I really wouldn't give a shit how much they were paid if we got something more than vague promises.

They could release the source with a licence that restricted commercial use, anything they wanted, that still allowed them to profit.

Instead we get "AI is too dangerous for anyone else to have." The whole thing doesn't inspire confidence.

replies(1): >>LordDr+ue
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8. dasil0+C3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:45:00
>>emoden+51
GP clearly understands this and said it explicitly, hence “OpenAI more subtle scam” part.
replies(1): >>emoden+E4
9. romero+c4[view] [source] 2024-03-01 17:47:27
>>dkjaud+(OP)
The reality was that nobody could have predicted the A.I breakthroughs when OpenAI first got started. It was a moonshot. Thats why Musk gave $50m dollars without even asking for a seat at the board.

OpenAI had to start as a non profit because there was no clear path forward. It was research. Kind of like doing research with the goal of curing cancer.

The unexpected breakthroughs came a bit quicker than anticipated and everybody was seeing the dollar signs.

I believe OpenAIs intial intention at the beginning was benign. But they just couldn't let go of the dollars.

replies(1): >>burner+1p
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10. emoden+E4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:49:14
>>dasil0+C3
Isn't OpenAI a less subtle scam in that case?
replies(1): >>j16sdi+q7
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11. cobert+K4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:49:51
>>emoden+51
Not many people seem to understand this. Here's an example from a previous rabbit hole.

The Sherman Fairchild Foundation (which manages the post-humous funds of the guy who made Fairchild Semiconductor) pays its president $500k+ and chairman about the same. https://beta.candid.org/profile/6906786?keyword=Sherman+fair... (Click Form 990 and select a form)

I do love IRS Form 990 in this way. It sheds a lot of light into this.

replies(5): >>jdblai+U6 >>doktri+68 >>troupe+n8 >>caturo+ma >>joquar+zh
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12. rvba+f5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:52:16
>>emoden+51
The Mozilla management seems to be disinterested in doing anything to improve Firefox market share (by for example doing what users want: customization), they waste money on various "investments" and half-bake projects that are used by developers to stat-pad their CVs - and at the end of the day, they are paid millions.

IMO you could cut the CEOs salary from 6 million to 300k and get a new CEO - and we probably wouldnt see any difference in Firefox results. Perhaps improvement even. Since the poorly paid CEO would try to demonstrate value - and this best is done by bringing back firefox market share.

replies(1): >>psycho+h9
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13. zelias+u6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:57:42
>>samsta+61
Does this mean that I can deduct my overpriced Jets tickets as a charitable donation? That's certainly what it feels like in any case...
replies(1): >>vonmol+Nb
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14. jdblai+U6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:59:32
>>cobert+K4
That salary for managing $1B in assets doesn't seem high to me. Am I missing something?
replies(2): >>smalln+Bb >>buggle+Ke
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15. j16sdi+q7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:01:40
>>emoden+E4
It's more.

It give empty promise.

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16. doktri+68[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:04:26
>>cobert+K4
So basically the same as a faang staff engineer?
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17. troupe+n8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:05:52
>>cobert+K4
Getting paid $500k, while it is a lot of money, is not at all the same as someone benefiting from the profit of a company and making 100s of millions of dollars. $500k doesn't at all seem like an unreasonable salary for someone who is a really good executive and could be managing a for-profit company instead.
replies(1): >>Walter+dh
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18. psycho+h9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:09:46
>>rvba+f5
>300k [...] poorly paid

The median annual wage in 2021 in the US was $45,760,

https://usafacts.org/data/topics/economy/jobs-and-income/job...

Just to put bit of perspective...

replies(1): >>rvba+zS
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19. caturo+ma[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:15:14
>>cobert+K4
I am a lot more offended or pleased by whether the leader manages a 60MM budget and a 1B endowment than their 500k salary.

There's this weird thing where charities are judged by how much they cost to run and pay their employees to even a greater degree than other organizations, and even by people who would resist that strategy for businesses. It's easy to imagine a good leader executing the mission way more than 500k better than a meh one, and even more dramatically so for 'overhead' in general (as though a nonprofit would consistently be doing their job better by cutting down staffing for vetting grants or improving shipping logistics or whatever).

replies(1): >>caturo+Yn
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20. billyw+eb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:19:43
>>emoden+51
the way openai structure their pay is dubious to say the least. maybe they will find a way to make money someday but rn everything they are doing is setting my alarm bells off.

"In conversations with recruiters we’ve heard from some candidates that OpenAI is communicating that they don’t expect to turn a profit until they reach their mission of Artificial General Intelligence" https://www.levels.fyi/blog/openai-compensation.html

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21. smalln+Bb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:21:29
>>jdblai+U6
$1bn in assets isn’t much, at the high end you can charge maybe $20mm a year (hedge fund), at the low end a few million (public equity fund). That needs to pay not just execs but accountants, etc.

Put another way, a $1bn hedge fund is considered a small boutique that typically only employs a handful of people.

replies(1): >>tomp+Nk
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22. vonmol+Nb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:22:21
>>zelias+u6
I know this is a joke (like the Jets), but the NFL was a 501(c)(6) organization. You can't deduct donations to those.
23. matt-p+Uc[view] [source] 2024-03-01 18:26:25
>>dkjaud+(OP)
Also it /doesn't/ all go back to openAI. Microsoft for example will make 100X ROI.
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24. LordDr+ue[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:33:17
>>dkjaud+B3
>I really wouldn't give a shit how much they were paid if we got something more than vague promises.

"We" got a free-as-in-beer general knowledge chat system leagues better than anything at the time, suitable for most low-impact general knowledge and creative work (easily operable by non-technical users), a ridiculously cheap api for it, and the papers detailing how to replicate it.

The same SOTA with image generation, just hosted by Microsoft/Bing.

Like, not to defend OpenAI, but if the goal was improving the state of general AI, they've done a hell of a lot - much of which your average tech-literate person would not have believed was even possible. Not single-handedly, obviously, but they were major contributors to almost all of the current SOTA. The only thing they haven't done is release the weights, and I feel like everything else they've done has been lost in the discussion, here.

replies(2): >>kaoD+Mf >>whaleo+Qg
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25. buggle+Ke[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:34:31
>>jdblai+U6
One cool thing is that the these funds don’t actually need active management and that in itself is a form of predatory graft. You could stick them all in a diverse array of index funds and call it a day, as pretty much no fund managers outperform those.
replies(2): >>Walter+ph >>jdblai+Xh
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26. kaoD+Mf[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:40:00
>>LordDr+ue
> The only thing they haven't done is release the weights.

Not at all. With GPT-3 they only released a paper roughly describing it but in no way it allowed replication (and obviously no source code, nor the actual NN model, with or without weights).

GPT-4 was even worse since they didn't even release a paper, just a "system card" that amounted to describing that its outputs were good.

27. treflo+og[view] [source] 2024-03-01 18:42:33
>>dkjaud+(OP)
Not to speak about OpenAI specifically, but people who know what they’re doing still cost a buttload of $$$$.

Even I as a software engineer have a minimum salary I expect because I’m good at my job.

Just because it’s a non-profit doesn’t mean I’m going to demand a smaller salary.

And if the non-profit can’t afford me and gets a more junior dev and they’re not very good and their shit breaks… well, they should have paid full price.

That said, there ARE a lot of dirty non-profits that exist just to pay their executives.

replies(1): >>y_gy+pi
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28. whaleo+Qg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:44:45
>>LordDr+ue
> "We" got a free-as-in-beer general knowledge chat system leagues better than anything at the time

Where can I go get or drink from my free as in beer chat system from them then?

replies(1): >>LordDr+ai
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29. Solven+Yg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:45:08
>>samsta+61
Because a non-profit is just a class of business structure no different from an LLC or S-Corp and every company will incorporate based on which is the most advantageous to their business goals. It's average people who have conflated this idea that NPs only exist to serve as charitable heroes for humanity.
replies(1): >>samsta+In3
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30. Walter+dh[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:46:15
>>troupe+n8
Nadella increased the value of MSFT 10x since he took over MSFT. He's worth a heluva lot more than $500k to MSFT shareholders.
replies(1): >>fakeda+7k
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31. Walter+ph[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:47:12
>>buggle+Ke
So don't invest in them. (Actually, I agree with you. I don't invest in them.)
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32. joquar+zh[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:48:30
>>cobert+K4
I once did an elastic search project that indexed the 990 data, and there is a lot of shady shit going on.

I remember one org had so many money pipes going in/out of it that I had to modify my code to make a special case for them.

replies(1): >>cobert+YC
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33. Walter+Lh[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:49:32
>>nerdpo+z1
The D Language Foundation is a non-profit. We formed it so that businesses could have a proper legal entity to donate to. The executives don't get any compensation.
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34. jdblai+Xh[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:50:05
>>buggle+Ke
I have no idea if the fund is actively managed. I assume the president is mostly fundraising, deciding how to spend the proceeds, and dealing with administration. That's a job, right? Or should we just have robo-foundations?
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35. LordDr+ai[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:51:17
>>whaleo+Qg
https://chat.openai.com/

(No, having to create an account does not mean it's "not free")

replies(1): >>remote+Qk
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36. necove+oi[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:52:10
>>samsta+61
A non-profit simply has to spend all of the earnings, and it makes sense as a joint org for a number of for-profit enterprises (clubs) who all take part in the earnings.

Even if it was for profit company and it paid out all the surplus earnings to shareholders (owning clubs), it would be taxed zero on zero earnings (they'd just have to ensure all payouts happen within the calendar year).

replies(1): >>samsta+ip
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37. y_gy+pi[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:52:18
>>treflo+og
You're thinking about the wrong thing. It's not about salaries for staff. The fact that it's a non-profit means no corporate taxes. That's where the profits go into the pockets of management, practically.
38. tehjok+pj[view] [source] 2024-03-01 18:57:05
>>dkjaud+(OP)
Non-profits, the big ones at least, are a scam by rich people to privatize what should essentially be nationalized government services. They get to pretend they're helping the public at a fraction of their capability to paper over their ill gotten gains elsewhere. It's like a drug lord buying a church, but they get to take the spend out of their taxes. Alternatively, they are a way to create a tax free pool of money for their children to play with by putting them on the board.

Non-profits weren't really as much of a thing until the neoliberal era of privatizing everything.

Of course, there are "real" non-profits, those kinds of activities are a real thing, such as organizing solely member funded organizations to serve the people, but in America, this is a marginal amount of the money in the system.

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39. mcint+Rj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 18:59:31
>>emoden+51
It has mattered in other cases, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSP_Vision_Care

> In 2003 the Internal Revenue Service revoked VSP's tax exempt status citing exclusionary, members-only practices, and high compensation to executives.[3]

Or later in the article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSP_Vision_Care#Non-profit_sta...

> In 2005, a federal district judge in Sacramento, California found that VSP failed to prove that it was not organized for profit nor for the promotion of the greater social welfare, as is required of a 501(c)(4). Instead, the district court found, VSP operates much like a for-profit (with, for example, its executives getting bonuses tied to net income) and primarily for the benefit of its own member/subscribers, not for some greater social good and, thereafter, concluded it was not entitled to tax-exempt status under 501(c)(4).[16]

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40. fakeda+7k[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 19:00:12
>>Walter+dh
Microsoft isn't a non profit, and didn't begin as a non profit. Like how even?
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41. tomp+Nk[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 19:03:24
>>smalln+Bb
Those $20m are literally to keep the lights on (base salary, law firm, prime brokers, data feeds, exchange connectivity).

Nobody in the hedge fund world works for salary.

They work for bonuses. Which for $1bn fund should be another $20m or so (20% profit share of 10% returns), otherwise you suck.

If bonuses aren’t available in non-profits, the base salaries should be much higher.

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42. remote+Qk[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 19:03:36
>>LordDr+ai
I have to login? Sorry but that's not free, as they want my PII to be able to use it. Yes, I'm from the EU.
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43. caturo+Yn[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 19:17:07
>>caturo+ma
*offended or pleased by _how well_ the leader manages...
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44. samsta+co[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 19:18:36
>>sfmz+E2
Gee... I wonder if that had anything to do with the internet and so many people becoming aware of their Mega Church Model due to the Information SuperHighway?
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45. burner+1p[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 19:23:51
>>romero+c4
I have a slightly more cynical take:

Training LLMs requires a lot of text, and, as a practical matter, essentially all LLMs have committed copyright infringement on an industrial scale to collect training data.

The US has a fair-use exception with a four-part test:

The second and third parts (nature of the work (creative) and how much of the work is used (all of it)) strongly favor copyright owners. The fourth part (which SCOTUS previous said is the most important part, but has since walked back) is neutral to slightly favoring the copiers: Most LLMs are trained to not simply regurgitate the input, so a colorable argument exists that an LLM has no impact on the market for, say, NY Times articles.

Taken together, parts 2 through 4 are leaning towards impermissible use. That leaves us with the first part: Could it make the difference? The first part really has two subparts: How and what are you using it for?

"How" they are using it is clearly transformational (it defeats the purpose of an LLM if it just regurgitates the input), so that argues in favor of copiers like OpenAI.

But where I think Altman had a brilliant/evil flash of genius is that the "what" test: OpenAI is officially a non-profit, dedicated to helping humanity: That means the usage is non-commercial. Being non-commercial doesn't automatically make the use fair use, but it might make the difference when considering parts 2 through 4, plus the transformativity of the usage.

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46. samsta+ip[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 19:25:48
>>necove+oi
Hi, im SEC reality.

Guess, what - you missed the loophole.

Take a look at Sarah Palin's Daughter's' charity foundation Against Teen Pregnacy - founded after she, herself, was impregnated as a teen and it was a scandal on Sarah Palin's political shenanigans.... (much like boabert - his Drug/Thievery ~~guild~~ Addiction Foundation, soon to follow)....

Sarah Palins daughter got pregnant as a team, caused shame on the campaign - and started a foundation to help "stop teen pregnancy"

Then when the 503 filed, it was revealed that the Daughter was being paid ~$450,000 a year plus expenses from "managing the foundation" for the donations they solicited.

---

If you dont know how "foundation" is the Secret Financial Handshake For "Yep, Ill launder money for you, and you launder money for me!... donate to my TAX DEDUCTABLE FOUNDATION/CHARITY... and Ill do the SAME to yours with the Money you "donated" to me! (excluding my fee of course)

This is literally what Foundations do.

(if you have never looked into the SEC filings for the Salvation Army (I have read some of their filings cover to cover.... biggest financial scam charity in the country, whos finances are available...)

money laundering is a game. Like Polo.

---

>>>The company remains governed by the nonprofit and its original charter today. "

https://i.imgur.com/I2K4XF5.png

-

https://www.weforum.org/people/sam-altman/

replies(1): >>necove+MM
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47. cobert+YC[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 20:43:58
>>joquar+zh
This sounds absolutely fascinating. Did you write about it/share it anywhere?
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48. necove+MM[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 21:49:41
>>samsta+ip
Sure, I was mostly referring to NFL case and profit taxation, not to how non-profit foundations are abused in general.

NFL can achieve the same taxation level as a for-profit if it's more careful about distributing all surplus earnings before the end of the year.

Someone could certainly abuse the non-profit status there too, but nobody brought those cases up.

replies(1): >>samsta+IT
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49. rvba+zS[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 22:27:27
>>psycho+h9
300 thousand is a "poor" pay for a CEO

Current CEO earns 20 times more -> 6 million per year

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50. samsta+IT[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 22:36:12
>>necove+MM
Fair, and I love to discourse - it sucks when people are thinking they are being attacked...

tone is the one thing AI has yet to solve.

(plus intoning and atoning... AI has yet on these little Jungians)

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51. samsta+In3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-03 00:28:12
>>Solven+Yg
NO DIFFERENT?

How do I form my own Church of Sam. Why would I pay taxes when people believe in me?

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