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[parent] [thread] 97 comments
1. breadw+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-19 21:18:34
The key question in my mind is not who is going to be on the new board, but whether Ilya Sutskever will stay if Altman comes back. I worry that OpenAI without Ilya is not going to produce groundbreaking innovations at the same pace. Hopefully Sam Altman and Ilya Sutskever can patch things up. That's more important than who they add or remove to the board.
replies(11): >>trasht+87 >>sashan+e9 >>mrtksn+ba >>foobar+Ja >>siva7+bb >>ioulau+sd >>yumraj+Ui >>chucke+Rn >>ptero+bO >>az226+cO >>felipe+A01
2. trasht+87[view] [source] 2023-11-19 21:51:52
>>breadw+(OP)
A rough guess is that Elon will pick up Ilya, with a promise to really aim for safe AGI.
replies(5): >>apppli+x7 >>alecco+d8 >>mcmcmc+Re >>whyeno+xl >>optima+Wv
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3. apppli+x7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 21:53:48
>>trasht+87
If Ilya’s problem with Sam was that he was acting out on his own and deviating from founding principles, he’s not going to have a good time under Elon.
replies(3): >>CSMast+98 >>somepe+Rg >>icelan+9j
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4. CSMast+98[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 21:56:47
>>apppli+x7
From everything I can piece together the underlying problem is that Sam defunded Ilya's alignment research because they only have so much compute and they needed all of it to keep up with the demand for ChatGPT and the APIs, especially after dev day.

Ilya losing access to the GPUs he needs to do his research so that the company can service a few more customers seemed like a fundamental betrayal to him and a sign that Sam was ignoring safety in order to grow marketshare.

If Elon is able to promise him the resources he needs to do his research then I think it could work out.

replies(3): >>dchich+99 >>tw04+2d >>dwaltr+Zm
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5. alecco+d8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 21:57:09
>>trasht+87
I'm starting to suspect this was all orchestrated by Google. Win-win. Google has the hardware, the data, and the models. Google only lacks OpenAI's secret refining sauce. Getting back Ilya would be the best outcome for them.
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6. dchich+99[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:01:18
>>CSMast+98
More likely that the WorldCoin project is doing poorly. With crypto and NFTs going down it could be a house of cards. And in a need of an urgent injection of money.
replies(1): >>spookt+N9
7. sashan+e9[view] [source] 2023-11-19 22:01:41
>>breadw+(OP)
I don’t know if Ilya contributed anything technically to OpenAI in the recent 2-3 years. He is broadly thanked along with Sam in GPT4 List of contributors, he is not mentioned in ChatGPT list of contributors, he is again thanked for advice in the GPT-3 list of contributors. The folks who resigned upon Sams ouster, Jacub Pachocki is credited as lead of GPT-4 , Greg Brockmann is credited for multiple things in GPT-4 ( he was the lead for training infra setup).

All of them would have left if Sam left, if anything letting Sam go would significantly hamstring OpenAI than letting Ilya go.

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8. spookt+N9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:04:24
>>dchich+99
The worldcoin thing really bugs me too. Any time there is crypto, somebody is scamming somebody else. Worldcoin is no different in this regard.
replies(1): >>capabl+8d
9. mrtksn+ba[view] [source] 2023-11-19 22:06:42
>>breadw+(OP)
Currently, it’s very unclear who operates under what motives. How much is it about ego? How much is it about money and how much is it due to intellectual positions? Maybe there’re are no heroes and maybe there’re no antiheroes? With the recent news about other investments and deals, the facade doesn’t seem to even resemble the OpenAI’s reality.

I can’t wait to read the autobiography of involved parties.

replies(6): >>jessen+Ea >>resour+Rc >>thepas+Gd >>ioulau+ze >>zyang+Ei >>YeBanK+kw
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10. jessen+Ea[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:08:45
>>mrtksn+ba
Sam Altman by Walter Isaacson

Releasing 2037...

replies(1): >>spking+1d
11. foobar+Ja[view] [source] 2023-11-19 22:08:59
>>breadw+(OP)
The other question is what happens to the pretense of "safety". The CEO explicitly said multiple times that he does not have unilateral control, that he is subordinate to the board and that the board's job was to remove him if it he was pursuing an unsafe course. Assuming he gets re-instated that would all be shown to be false.
replies(1): >>lucubr+nl
12. siva7+bb[view] [source] 2023-11-19 22:11:12
>>breadw+(OP)
Ilya will do just fine after openai but there is zero chance that he will stay there as too many bridges are burned.
replies(2): >>ioulau+Ve >>jacque+q31
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13. resour+Rc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:18:47
>>mrtksn+ba
Are you sure they will be "consistently candid" in their autobiographies? :-)
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14. spking+1d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:19:41
>>jessen+Ea
Shouldn't it be written by ChatGPT?
replies(2): >>dboreh+Yh >>mickda+Q11
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15. tw04+2d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:19:51
>>CSMast+98
> If Elon is able to promise him the resources he needs to do his research then I think it could work out.

Who on earth would ever trust an Elon promise at this point? The guy literally can’t open his mouth without making a promise he can’t keep.

Unless Ilya is getting something in a bulletproof contract and is willing to spend a decade fighting for it in court, he’s an idiot doing anything with Elon.

replies(3): >>static+9h >>comfys+KT >>unsupp+921
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16. capabl+8d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:20:18
>>spookt+N9
Did you figure out the motives behind Bitcoin too while doing your research?
replies(1): >>jazzyj+Mp
17. ioulau+sd[view] [source] 2023-11-19 22:22:10
>>breadw+(OP)
I think Sam could "potentially" be the bigger man in this.

Ilya may still be someone who should be on the board... Especially given his role as head of alignment research. He deserves a say on key issues related to OpenAI.

People get excited. Stupid things happen. Especially in startups.

ChatGPT having become so successful doesn't change the fact that the company as a whole, is fairly immature still.

They should seriously just laugh about it and move on.

Let's just say that Ilya had a bad couple of days, and probably needs a couple of weeks of vacation.

replies(2): >>gizmo+Ae >>Davidz+2n
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18. thepas+Gd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:23:08
>>mrtksn+ba
>Ego

I can absolutely empathize with Ilya here, though. As far as I know the tech making openai function is largely his life’s work. It would be extremely frustrating to have Sam be the face of it, and be given the credit for it.

Sam is clearly a very accomplished businessman and networker. Those people are super important, I wish I had a person like him on my team.

I’ve had the experience of other people tacitly taking credit for my work. Giving talks about it, receiving praise for their vision. It’s incredibly demoralizing.

I’m not necessarily saying Sam did this, since I don’t know any of these people. Just speculating on how it might feel to ge Ilya watching Sam go on a world tour meeting heads of state to talk about what is largely Ilya’s work.

replies(8): >>buggle+2e >>kwant_+sg >>slavet+Rk >>loboch+9p >>danena+sp >>deevia+gz >>TheCon+UJ >>kernal+nO
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19. buggle+2e[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:25:03
>>thepas+Gd
…and yet a very familiar story in the industry.
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20. ioulau+ze[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:27:47
>>mrtksn+ba
Given that nothing criminal happened, canning Sam with no chance for discussion was just overkill.

It's probably more of an intellectual / philosophical position, given that they just did not think through the real impact on the business (and thus the mission itself)

I'm inclined to assume that something stupid was done. It happens. They should resolve it, fix the rules for how the board can behave, and move on.

Despite the bungling, Ilya is probably still a good voice to have on the board. His key responsibility (super-alignment), is a key part of OpenAI's mission.

replies(3): >>cmdli+If >>jart+el >>belter+Hn
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21. gizmo+Ae[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:27:49
>>ioulau+sd
I agree. As long as Sam has total control over the board it's fine if Iiya doesn't approve of everything Sam does. Not worth losing a top AI researcher over this.
replies(1): >>Bryant+7h
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22. mcmcmc+Re[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:29:12
>>trasht+87
Ah yes, Elon who famously keeps all his promises without needing a court order.
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23. ioulau+Ve[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:29:19
>>siva7+bb
Just because he acted like a goofball, doesn't mean that everyone needs to.

Plus, the other board members supported him, so decent blame to go around for this embarrassment.

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24. cmdli+If[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:32:52
>>ioulau+ze
While we don’t know the whole story, I don’t think Sam is innocent in this matter. It seems likely that this was a recurring disagreement, and perhaps this was simply a step too far where the board had to act. When you fire somebody, typically you don’t give them a heads up.
replies(1): >>Aeolun+DC
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25. kwant_+sg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:37:16
>>thepas+Gd
What makes you think it is 'his' work and not theirs? I remember when OpenAI was just a joke compared to Deepmind. The turning point (as I remember) was when they used [1] deep reinforcement learning on dota2. clearly iyla (also one of the authors) contributed, but so did many others on the team I assume?

[1]: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1912.06680.pdf

replies(2): >>Wander+pp >>mi_lk+Vp
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26. somepe+Rg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:38:58
>>apppli+x7
Elon Musk has been very critical of OpenAI's switch from a non-profit focused on AI safety to a for-profit competing with Tesla.

It's why he fell out and left OpenAI despite investing $100 million to start it.

I'd say he's well aligned with Ilya's position. Early on I wondered if he was an instigator of the entire board coup.

replies(2): >>Rivier+gj >>Tenoke+rl
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27. Bryant+7h[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:40:19
>>gizmo+Ae
That defeats the purpose of having a board. Which is sometimes the desired outcome, of course, but if I were Microsoft I am not sure I’d want Sam in there with zero checks and balances.

I also wouldn’t want Ilya in there without checks and balances, to be clear. So the challenge is identifying the right adults.

I don’t think it’s realistic to expect that negotiation to complete successfully in the eyes of all parties by 5 PM today. It’s possible that Ilya will give up on having his requirements satisfied and leave.

replies(2): >>gizmo+5q >>prawn+Tu
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28. static+9h[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:40:24
>>tw04+2d
Contract wherein Musk pays all legal fees would be pretty trustworthy
replies(1): >>eganis+vl
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29. dboreh+Yh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:44:39
>>spking+1d
ChatGPT "with Walter Isaacson".
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30. zyang+Ei[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:47:54
>>mrtksn+ba
Musk recruited Ilya from Google to start OpenAI. Musk was ousted by Altman. Now Altman is ousted by Ilya.
31. yumraj+Ui[view] [source] 2023-11-19 22:48:58
>>breadw+(OP)
It seems somewhat clear that at the end of the day there are two camps, Ilya and Sam.

Sam is backed by investors who are looking for returns, and are not sure if Ilya will get them the same juicy 100X.

So, if Sam comes back, then I’m pretty sure Ilya will go on his own. Whether he will focus on GPT or AGI or ?, is anyone’s guess, as is how many from OpenAI will follow him as everyone loves money.

EDIT: Ilya should have no trouble finding benefactors of his own, whether they are one of the FAANGs or VCs is TBD.

replies(1): >>felipe+p11
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32. icelan+9j[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:50:50
>>apppli+x7
Ilya has worked for Elon in the past without incident. I doubt it would be a problem.
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33. Rivier+gj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:51:23
>>somepe+Rg
He left because they didn't allow him to be in charge.
replies(1): >>somena+B21
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34. slavet+Rk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:59:39
>>thepas+Gd
I can personally understand this, and am currently struggling with it. It's hard that the world works this way.
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35. jart+el[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:01:23
>>ioulau+ze
Is this the kind of alignment we can expect from superintelligence? Gossiping, surprise trials, and purges?
replies(1): >>frabcu+hn
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36. lucubr+nl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:02:27
>>foobar+Ja
Yeah, a $2.8Tn tech company and a venture capitalist's network managing to overturn the non-profit Board's completely legal action (legally required of the Board, even) they took in furtherance of their Charter would be the ultimate practical demonstration that no legal structure, not even those specifically designed to do so, is above what capital wants. It's their world, we're just living in it, and they want to make sure they make the next world subservient to them too.
replies(2): >>Aeolun+CD >>peyton+6E
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37. Tenoke+rl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:02:41
>>somepe+Rg
The problem is Elon's approach to alignment as presented during x.ai launch is pretty different to what Ilya says and as far as I can tell pretty naive on top of that.
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38. eganis+vl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:03:14
>>static+9h
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/24/musks-twitter-has-been-sued-...

He's pretty bad at honoring contracts too

replies(1): >>static+Z51
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39. whyeno+xl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:03:33
>>trasht+87
I apologize in advance for this snarky comment, but with Elon’s track record when it comes to safety at Twitter and Tesla, I would doubt his sincerity or follow-through on AI safety.
replies(1): >>trasht+H42
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40. dwaltr+Zm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:11:48
>>CSMast+98
Interesting, where did you hear that?
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41. Davidz+2n[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:11:57
>>ioulau+sd
So you think Ilya will stay while getting none of what he wanted because he still wants to have a job at openai? Do you think he did it with no real grievances?
replies(1): >>danena+5r
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42. frabcu+hn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:12:35
>>jart+el
Worse. Which is exactly why superintelligence is scary - it'll make the humans around it go wild for power, and then it will be impossible (by definition) to predict.
replies(1): >>TeMPOr+6q
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43. belter+Hn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:15:21
>>ioulau+ze
Sounds clear what he was not candid about to the Board: The promises to Microsoft...
44. chucke+Rn[view] [source] 2023-11-19 23:16:04
>>breadw+(OP)
I doubt about Ilya's involvement at this point.
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45. loboch+9p[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:24:46
>>thepas+Gd
Ideas are like children. You don't just need to give birth to them; you also need to raise them, teach them, challenge them, and show them the world.

Giving birth to an idea is a necessary condition and sets the boundaries for so much of what it can achieve. But if you're unable to raise it to become a world champion, it isn't worth anything.

I've been on the raising ideas side way more in my 20+ career in tech. I know some people became bitter and scornful of me because I pushed their ideas to become something big and received a lot of credit for that. And I try to give credit where credit is due. But often enough, when I try to share the spotlight (in front of a customer or when presenting at BoD, for example), the brilliant engineer withers under pressure or actively harms his idea by pointing out its flaws excessively. It's a delicate balance.

replies(1): >>sahila+cz
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46. Wander+pp[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:26:06
>>kwant_+sg
The robotic hand Rubiks cube manipulation using RL was no joke either!
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47. danena+sp[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:26:26
>>thepas+Gd
I think Sam has been given credit for being a good CEO and leader, which clearly is deserved. I've never heard him take credit for technical accomplishments. Ilya has been doing plenty of talks, podcasts, etc.--if anyone's the technical face of OpenAI, it's him. There's no lack of praise or credit given to him.

"Just speculating on how it might feel to Ilya watching Sam go on a world tour meeting heads of state to talk about what is largely Ilya’s work."

The whole point of a CEO is to do this kind of stuff. If your best engineers are going on world tours, talking to politicians, and preparing for keynotes, that's a pretty terrible use of their time. Not to mention that most of them would hate doing it.

replies(1): >>jjeaff+au
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48. jazzyj+Mp[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:28:39
>>capabl+8d
despite being invented for non-scam purposes, it turns out to be a productivity multipler for scammers more than anyone else.

and also Bitcoin might be the exception that proves the rule - every other chain or token is managed by a few insiders taking get-rich-quick marks for a ride.

replies(1): >>ocdtre+ct
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49. mi_lk+Vp[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:29:36
>>kwant_+sg
It for sure doesn't have sama's name on it. The point stands
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50. gizmo+5q[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:30:48
>>Bryant+7h
If Sam returns he doesn't want to risk getting ousted again? So presumably he'll appoint people 100% loyal to him.

Plenty of precedent for tech founders to have total board control. It will take a little while for Sam to consolidate power, but he won't forget what happened this weekend and he'll play the long game accordingly.

replies(2): >>abraae+Ms >>Bryant+Zs
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51. TeMPOr+6q[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:30:48
>>frabcu+hn
Huh. I imagined many scenarios, including the more obvious and dangerous one, "AI manipulating people unaware of its existence" - but I never considered a scenario in which the AI makes its existence widely known, and perhaps presents itself as more dangerous than it is, and then it just starts slightly nudging all the people racing to take control over it.
replies(1): >>hotnfr+FQ
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52. danena+5r[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:37:33
>>Davidz+2n
He has succeeded in forcing a negotiation on the issues he's unhappy about. If he felt his concerns were being ignored previously, well, that is certainly no longer the case. I wouldn't assume necessarily that he's not going to get any of what he wanted.
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53. abraae+Ms[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:47:04
>>gizmo+5q
Big investors like Microsoft won't want a board that is utterly subservient to the CEO.
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54. Bryant+Zs[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:49:01
>>gizmo+5q
Sam isn’t the only person who has to agree to the members of the new board. Sam also has not displayed a mastery of board politics in the past, either at OpenAI or at Y Combinator. Of course he has a strong hand to play here, but then again so does Microsoft.
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55. ocdtre+ct[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:49:56
>>jazzyj+Mp
I think it'd be really funny if Bitcoin was originally supposed to also be a rug pull but Satoshi died suddenly or something, and so Bitcoin was just the scam that never managed to complete itself or something.
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56. jjeaff+au[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 23:55:51
>>danena+sp
I'm a developer and have used Open AI as a beta user from before their public launch and been interested in the structure and business side of AI and had never heard of Ilya until this recent blowup. I'm just one data point, but my guess is that the vast, vast majority of the public that knows anything about AI has also never heard of Ilya.
replies(2): >>machom+tF >>jatins+Z21
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57. prawn+Tu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 00:00:35
>>Bryant+7h
Is it assumed that Sam would be more aligned with Microsoft than not? From a vague awareness only, I'd guess that Microsoft wants to wield OpenAI against rivals, and SamA wouldn't find it unappealing to be bigger than Zuckerberg?
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58. optima+Wv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 00:06:21
>>trasht+87
Don't do it, Ilya.
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59. YeBanK+kw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 00:08:46
>>mrtksn+ba
Initially I thought it iwas about money. Now it seems to be about intellectual position: Sama wants to move fast and break things, Ilya does not. I don’t want my bank to replace customer support with LLM agent, that has access to internal APIs or LLM driving a medical decision just yet.

As an example, couple years ago Crisis Text Line decided to sell data to a for profit spin off. Their justification was that data was anonymized, which was bs for it’s unstructured text data, and that it’s not against terms of service, which users had agreed to. Mind you, these users were people in crisis maybe even on a brink of a suicide. This was highly unethical and caused a backlash. Then one of the bod members wrote a half assed “reflection” post [1]. If some core employees of CTL did a “coup” to stop this decision, because they believed it’s unethical and dangerous, wouldn’t it be justifies?

[1] http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2022/01/31/crisis-...

replies(1): >>s3p+w51
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60. sahila+cz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 00:25:08
>>loboch+9p
This isn’t a given and not everyone’s view. Doing a thing and choosing what to do with said thing is that person’s prerogative. The specifics will matter but I don’t agree that someone else’s idea is something someone else must push and profit of if they don’t. The idea of patents also agree with this too.
replies(1): >>xwolfi+XZ
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61. deevia+gz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 00:25:46
>>thepas+Gd
I was under the impression that the transformer is the tech making openai function, and that Ilya's name is not on the 2017 paper introducing the idea.
replies(1): >>numeri+xH
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62. Aeolun+DC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 00:44:32
>>cmdli+If
You don’t typically do it this quickly either.
replies(2): >>tempes+A51 >>rblatz+D71
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63. Aeolun+CD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 00:51:03
>>lucubr+nl
Just because something is legal does not mean it is right. If they’d spent a week talking with him and ultimately couldn’t resolve their differences and then fired him that would be one thing.
replies(1): >>lucubr+OB1
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64. peyton+6E[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 00:54:09
>>lucubr+nl
You have evidence Sam lied, like their statement implies? How do you know the action was in furtherance of their charter instead of over petty grievances?
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65. machom+tF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 01:04:33
>>jjeaff+au
Yes, you are only one data point. Check the views on Ilya's interviews on youtube. E.g. his interview on Lex (which he did years before Sam Altman) has 400k views, which demonstrated that he is a very well known entity in tech/AI space.
replies(1): >>thepas+GO
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66. numeri+xH[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 01:18:32
>>deevia+gz
I believe you're underestimating how key RLHF seems to be to getting a functioning chatbot with human-like behaviors.
replies(1): >>p1esk+QT
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67. TheCon+UJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 01:35:26
>>thepas+Gd
A LOT of people have put a ton of energy in to OpenAI, and a lot have put A LOT of money into it. If it was as petty as credit, then screw them all as they just don’t get it. It’s all on the shoulders of others too….
68. ptero+bO[view] [source] 2023-11-20 02:07:27
>>breadw+(OP)
I doubt it is fixable. Firing aside (which will be hard, but not impossible to make peace on), they have fundamental differences in goals. Even if you force a shotgun marriage to save the company, I would bet this will be a short term reprieve. Both goals can be successfully pursued, just not at the same company. My 2c.
69. az226+cO[view] [source] 2023-11-20 02:07:32
>>breadw+(OP)
No way Ilya gets to stay. The trust is broken far beyond repair.
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70. kernal+nO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 02:08:25
>>thepas+Gd
Ilya doesn’t want to be known as the Steve Wozniak in this relationship while Sam is perceived as the Steve Jobs. Unless you’re technically inclined no one remembers or praises the contributions of the Woz.
replies(1): >>jacque+331
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71. thepas+GO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 02:11:37
>>machom+tF
Lex has over 3M subs and most of his videos get way over 400k views. I think this makes the opposite point you’re trying to use it for.

Sama also went on Lex and got over 5M views. The title was: OpenAi ceo on, ChatGPT, GPT4, and the future of AI.

replies(1): >>machom+mV
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72. hotnfr+FQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 02:27:03
>>TeMPOr+6q
Both are too complicated. All a true AI has to do to get control of everything is promise 10% annual returns and guaranteed victory in battle. Limited-time offer, sign up today.

Done.

Any actual AI takeover will be boring and largely voluntary. For certain definitions of voluntary.

replies(1): >>jacque+h31
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73. comfys+KT[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 02:49:04
>>tw04+2d
Yeah, I imagine Karpathy had his fill of Musk and left. Probably with a stiff non disparagement agreement.
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74. p1esk+QT[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 02:49:24
>>numeri+xH
Ilya’s name is not on RLHF papers.
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75. machom+mV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 03:00:06
>>thepas+GO
Ilya's podcast was over 3 years ago and Lex's average IT podcasts had 50-100k views. Ilya got 400k. For reference, the absolute legend Jim Keller got 600k at the same time.

So yeah, Ilya is a very known entity. No, ordinary folks don't need to know him, but if you are in IT and especially if you have anything to do with AI, then not knowing about Ilya tells more about your informational bubble than about Ilya's alleged lack of recognition.

It is akin to claiming to be into crypto on development side and not knowing the name of Vitalik Buterin.

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76. xwolfi+XZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 03:41:23
>>sahila+cz
Patents are a compromise: you keep your prerogative, yes, but for a limited amount of time and you agree to publicly publish it so that everyone can access it. Eventually, if you do nothing with it, why would we limit humanity from benefitting from it ?

It's like imagine a guy has a nice idea to cure cancer, but plays the princess with it and refuses to industrialize it, while people are dying left and right. Surely, it becomes indefensible, and at some point, someone brave will do the right thing and implement the idea. You have a right to reap the benefit of your ideas but you have a duty not to deprive humanity of any benefit just because you thought of it first, I feel ?

77. felipe+A01[view] [source] 2023-11-20 03:49:14
>>breadw+(OP)
This is a terrible take. Ilya staying is the only thing that is basically guaranteed. Everything else isn’t. In addition, no one is irreplaceable.
replies(1): >>breadw+C41
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78. felipe+p11[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 03:59:42
>>yumraj+Ui
Who would invest in Ilya, though, when he very publicly tried to oust one of his oldest allies and failed? Trust can’t be built that way
replies(1): >>code_b+te1
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79. mickda+Q11[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 04:04:45
>>spking+1d
I had ChatGPT give me some proposals for screenplays.

My favorite was Rainbow MosAIc, a Rashomon style film taking place mainly from Friday to Monday. It played with all the different potential motivations and theories. It did a half decent metaphor with representing the different points of view via the different video conferencing cameras.

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80. unsupp+921[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 04:08:31
>>tw04+2d
It would take a rocket scientist to trust Elon Musk
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81. somena+B21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 04:13:52
>>Rivier+gj
Musk left in 2018 after disagreements over the future of the company. In 2019 OpenAI started their 'OpenAI LP' for-profit entity. It seems entirely reasonable that the profit vs mission motive that seems to be driving this issue, is also what drove Musk to leave.
replies(2): >>totall+Ha1 >>Rivier+UD1
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82. jatins+Z21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 04:17:20
>>jjeaff+au
Obviously Ilya will not be as famous as Sam since Sam is doing world tours and talking to who's who of world politics. But Ilya, Karpathy, gdb all are well respected and know in dev circles.

Even the recent OpenAI profile in one of prominent publications covered Mira, Ilya and gdb in addition to Sam.

But the fundamental question is why would a researcher expect (if they do) that they will be as well known as the CEO who is the face of organisation?

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83. jacque+331[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 04:17:46
>>kernal+nO
I think there is a lot to be said for being remembered as the Steve Wozniak. I'd much rather be remembered as Wozniak than as Jobs.
replies(1): >>OJFord+SI1
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84. jacque+h31[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 04:20:12
>>hotnfr+FQ
That's the playbook of any dictator. Hitch your horse to my wagon and we'll go places. But stray from the wagon and I'll have you shot by someone who is loyal to me. And it works. Without their henchmen little creeps wouldn't get out of the gate because they are invariably complete cowards.
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85. jacque+q31[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 04:21:39
>>siva7+bb
Finding co-founders might be a bit harder than it was before.
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86. breadw+C41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 04:34:35
>>felipe+A01
> Ilya staying is the only thing that is basically guaranteed.

How is that guaranteed? If investors remove him from board of directors, he may get pissed off and quit, no?

> In addition, no one is irreplaceable.

In theory, maybe. In practice, it is not always easy. Nearly a year after ChatGPT came out Google hasn't been able to catch up. If it was easy to replace Ilya after he left Google, they would have caught up by now.

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87. s3p+w51[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 04:44:30
>>YeBanK+kw
>I don’t want my bank to replace customer support with LLM agent, that has access to internal APIs

If it weren't for the mentality you are rallying against we wouldn't have ChatGPT. Google, Meta, everyone had these LLMs sitting around. OpenAI was the only company with the balls to release it to the public.

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88. tempes+A51[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 04:45:31
>>Aeolun+DC
What do you mean? Typically (always?) the firing itself is instantaneous. We have no idea how long the issues that led to the firing went on.

The communication was certainly very poor, and we don't know if the reasons were good, but I don't understand the speed complaint.

replies(1): >>Aeolun+s62
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89. static+Z51[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 04:48:55
>>eganis+vl
That’s my point. If/when he breaches he has to pay your fees for suing him. It’s a contingency lawyer’s dream.
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90. rblatz+D71[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 05:02:06
>>Aeolun+DC
If you do it properly, from the outside it seems sudden.
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91. totall+Ha1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 05:22:20
>>somena+B21
Come on now, does it sound like Musk to you to leave due to the prospect of profit? Surely there was some kind of power struggle there that he couldn't win, and the mission thing was a good story to tell others.
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92. code_b+te1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 05:42:38
>>felipe+p11
Why wouldn't I trust someone who took action to uphold their organizational charter, knowing there would be intense pressure to do otherwise?

Investment is only partially about trust. I agree Sam's a pretty investable guy. I expect Sam to pursue growth through fundraising, product commercialization, corporate partnerships, etc in exactly the YC mode. He's also clearly ok with letting the momentum of that growth overwhelm the original stated aims of OpenAI, especially given what the original firing press release said about Sam not being entirely forthright. I suspect Microsoft made their investment knowing that something like this might happen. It's not trustworthy that he tried to overwhelm nonprofit aims under for-profit momentum, but if you're an investor do you care?

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93. lucubr+OB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 08:07:41
>>Aeolun+CD
This has been going on for months. Sam sidelined Ilya out of his job a month ago, after a long time of Ilya trying to convince him he was going down the wrong course.
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94. Rivier+UD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 08:15:36
>>somena+B21
https://www.semafor.com/article/03/24/2023/the-secret-histor...

> And Musk proposed a possible solution: He would take control of OpenAI and run it himself.

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95. OJFord+SI1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 08:37:57
>>jacque+331
Also Wozniak is relatively known, maybe Gates/Allen works better as an analogy.
replies(1): >>jacque+kO1
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96. jacque+kO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 09:03:54
>>OJFord+SI1
I wouldn't want to be remembered as either Gates or Allen.

For instance:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/paul-allen-goes-after-...

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97. trasht+H42[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 10:51:42
>>whyeno+xl
I suppose "safety" means different things to different people. Elon seems to be of the type that cares about existential risks. One reading of him, is that he sees both Tesla, Twitter and SpaceX as tools to mitigate what he sees as existential risks.

In the case of Tesla, to accelerate the development of electric cars, in the case of Twitter, to reduce the probability of civil war and in the case of SpaceX to eventually have humanity (or our descendants) spread out enough that a single catastrophic event (like a meteor, gray goo or similar) doesn't wipe us out all at once.

His detractors obviously will question both his motives and methods, but if we imagine he's acting out of good faith (whether or not he's wrong), his approach to AI fits the pattern, including his story about why he helped with the startup of OpenAI in the first place.

From someone with an ex-risk approach to AI safety, the first concern is, to quote Ilya from the recent Alignment Workshop "As a bare minimum, let's make it so that if the tech does 'bad things', it's because of its operators, rather than due to some unexpected behavior".

In other words, for someone concerned with existential risk, even intentional "bad use" such as using AI for killer robots at a large scale in war or for a dictator to use AI to suppress a population are secondary concerns.

And it appears to me that Elon and Ilya both have this outlook, while Sam may be more concerned with shorter term social impacts.

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98. Aeolun+s62[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 11:04:12
>>tempes+A51
If it’s not a sudden thing, the person being fired generally writes a ‘no bad feelings’ instead of a ‘WTF’ message.
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