WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth?
Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal.
Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in mind.
I dont need to drive my car a lot, because my city is fully walkable/bikeable, and thats not a super rare thing here. There are a lot of factors.
I feel vacation days are just a basic requirement for happiness, whereas being rich maybe isnt
Does this include public holidays? Or do you have public holidays?
Depending on the state there are ten to thirteen public holidays (but some invariably fall on the weekend).
Retail, service industry, and blue collar work is very different, though. Time off is not always guaranteed, and sick days are not always paid.
I live in a big European city. You basically don't need a car - pretty much anything within the city is reachable in about 30min, and public transit is comfy.
Also, I have a public transit ticket that allows me to travel the entire country for a year, which only cost about 1000€.
Yes, salaries are lower, but I also don't have to save anything to get my kids through university, or keep emergency funds for health issues.
Also, I can't just get fired without cause. And if I do get laid off, I have 3 months of grace period, plus potentially years of unemployment money.
Also, the government even pays for certain courses so I can find employment again.
The social system in Europe is amazing.
Also, vacation days are not always used for fancy instagram post holiday. As random as life is, there are non-medical emergencies that one needs to attend to occasionally. Being able to see family is another one. Not everyone has their parents located within 1 hour driving distance.
My personal preference is to work as contractor and charge only for the days when I work. It takes away the feeling that the employer (or client) has a full control of your life and can dictate whether you will take 4 or 5 days off within a year or try to guilt trip you into working over weekends for no proper reason.
For context UK can commonly have 20 to 30 working days and that won't count public holidays (which depend on the country, and should be around 9-11 days which includes new year's, xmas).
edit: In Germany. I‘m German and I have studied there. I should know.
edit2: Someone said this comment could be interpreted as the cost per year which is not the case. This is the total cost.
If you live with your parents, and the university is free, where does that number come from?
And if you don't live with your parents, you live with others students, spending 600-1000 euro month for living, how do you reach that numbers?
We have a similar issue in Germany when it comes to the time between calling in sick and when you need a doctors notice. A lot of companies want a sick note from the doctor from day one. Means if you feel just not great you have to haul your ass to a doctor. Others and my employer counts in wants a sicknote after or on the 3rd day. That is great as it gives you the ability to just rest etc. But that system could be misused. So if it is better to count in that some might misuse it but overall the health of the workforce stays in balance or to employ a strict system where workers are compelled to get into work until they feel really sick … I tend to preference the system with trust. But I can see that that might not work everywhere.
Sick days are fairly normal, but "30 vacation days" is not. Only bigCo/large places offer 30(some offered 35 days too). Usual is 25(state normal) with +1-2 days extra at most places. However, sick leave is godsend, no denying.
Overall, I estimate that my university education cost my parents around 7000 EUR. And this wasn't even educational costs, but mostly living expenses.
I am also there and I didn't pay any monies anywhere for university(unless you mean fancy private university?). All state universities are free and we only paid some misely amount every 6 months for the city-ticket(free access to all public transport in the city, cool stuff). Also, state pays each child ~125/month until they are 25.
I believe you are in some different parallel universe entirely O.o
[0] https://sfs.mit.edu/undergraduate-students/the-cost-of-atten...
I'm too lazy to look up the details, but here in Spain the rules are something like no pay for the first 1–3 days of continued sick leave (if not a work accident, in which case you are paid from day 1), followed by a partial payment per day off (40% of base rate?) with gradual increase as the sick leave is prolonged (15 days maybe?) with the payment being gradually reimbursed to the employer by Social Security, I think up to 75% of the employee's base rate. Businesses may of course choose to top it up from their own purse.
Other than the business legitimately suspecting abuse of sick leave, the only special case breaks into effect when sick leave exceeds 365 continuous days, at which point long-term disability may be considered.
I cannot say how dystopic the idea of having limited sick days sounds to me. I am someone who very rarely gets sick, so I very rarely need to call in sick, but I simply know I am protected if I need to as a basic right. And some years ago I did have to make use of it unexpectedly (of course!).
Through no fault of my own I was involved in a traffic accident over a weekend which resulted in, among other minor injuries, a severe traumatic brain injury which could have killed me or left me disabled if it weren't for the emergency brain surgery I received. I spent a week in the ICU, another week in the main hospital wing, months of rehabilitation, and around 10 months of "sick leave" until I was able to work again. I was decently paid this whole period and at no point did I have to worry about losing my job (nor about "medical bills" of course!), being able to fully focus on myself and making a full recovery. I can only imagine how awful it could have been had I not had these basic protective rights as a worker and a citizen.
Nobody discusses costs like this.
Not only that, they are a requirement to make a good worker, that consequently make a good company. If you burn out your employees you fall behind schedule pretty quickly, so you have to rely on high turnover, which isn't a great option either.
Take the example of Japan
With a new law taking effect in April 2019 requiring employees who are due 10 days or more of paid vacation to take at least five days off per year
Working too much can have tremendous social consequences
Japan has long had a reputation for being one of the most overworked countries in the world. The term karoshi, or death by overwork, emerged in the 1990s when an increasing number of Japanese professionals were dying from heart attacks and strokes. Recent years have seen an epidemic of suicide, in part because of work-related stress: of 30,000 suicides in 2011, 10,000 were believed to be related to overwork, according to the police.
A room costs minimum 350 Euros or may easily cost 1000.
Food and going out costs at least 100 Euros or healthy food 200-300.
The subway ticket at that time cost 70 per month.
There are some additional costs such as health insurance etc.
Tuition at that time was 500 per semester for me.
Spending a semester abroad as is common is usually far more expensive.
And by law your parents have to pay. You are not required to even work.
On average parents are required to finance housing and food with 930 per month.
Source: https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherunge...
35.000-45.000 for the Bachelor alone.
https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherunge... (Verbraucherzentrale, semi-public consumer protection agency)
10.000 per year:
https://m.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/meine-finanzen/frag-den-m... (one of the top quality newspapers in Germany)
36.000 und 75.000 per child:
https://www.sparkasse.de/pk/ratgeber/bildung/studium/studien... (Sparkasse, pretty much the largest credit union)
Up to 133.000 (1851 per month):
https://www.studis-online.de/studienkosten/
But sure, believe what you want.
Needless to say, I didn't accept the job in the end.
> Tuition at that time was 500 per semester for me
This is the number people talk about when they're talking about tuition costs for Americans. Everyone needs shelter and to eat, whether they're a student or an engineer at a FAANG.
It's $5-10k fo r community college depending on in or out of state. It's $10-$20k per year for a university for most, and if you look at a "top" university, it's significantly more.
University of Boulder which is a top-50-USA-university is just shy of $40k per year for tuition. Stanford is $55k, and UPenn (Which was the most expensive I could find) is $61k per year.
That may be true in theory. In practice, many parents are in an income range which makes the child not eligible for educational support (Bafög), but which also does not allow supporting the child with 1000 EUR/month. The thought of telling my parents "you are required by law to send me more money, do it!" never occurred to me. They had a house to pay off. Both my mother and father worked more hours per week then I did for university (around 4-5 hours per day, at most, and only during the semester - I did nothing for university for around 4 months during the semester vacations). When my father was the same age as I when I started university, he had already worked for 7 years and paid rent and food money to his parents. So I think paying at least the rent, tuition, and food myself was the least I could do.
The fact that some of the best US universities have outrageous tuition is neither new nor surprising nor does it invalidate my claim. I drew no comparison to the US, you are drawing that comparison.
Economic growth is stagnant because energy production and energy import are stagnant. This has little to do with policy. It's 2011 all over again, when we heard all sort of 'southern Europeans are lazy/corrupt' and other shit. I even bought it like a good child. No. Southern Europeans economies used to depend a lot on north sea and Sahara oil and gas, and the reserves (and production) started declining in 2008 and 2010 respectively. Only oil producers, Russian clients and 'nuclear-based' economies managed to avoid crisis.
What is funny now that everybody speak about how Germany economy is in crisis. Well yeah. Same causes, same consequences.
I really don't see how it seems no one gets it. I understand politics wanting to grandstand and explain how growth is caused their policies, but I mean, the data is available. And we have panda. Look at oil import data from Italy then look at growth, from 2010 to 2012,its obvious one of the two is driving the other. Check the other 'PIGS', it's the same.
Burn out in Europe is still omnipresent and rising these days. This includes Germany, the 'chosen child' every proponent points at in these discussions. A few weeks off barely makes a dent in this and vacation days / time off hasn't been that noticeably different since the 70s/80s.
>Japan
That's just a law that pushes them to use it and keeps companies from going 'ah yeah difficult'. It's barely anything when work culture chains employees down to the whims of employers, or risking to be seen as dysfunctional for trying to get out of that 'I belong to my company' trap.
Surprise, that's the same culture that exists in most EU-countries. Just less hardcore.
Now what I wouldn't like to deal with is with lack of paid holidays, having to deal with masses of insurance paperwork and co-payments in case I need healthcare assistance, or deal with running out of sick days over the course of a year if I'm unlucky.
I suppose with enough wealth I wouldn't need to worry about the problems above, but I believe very few Americans have succeeded in that regard under their system. So, I prefer to stick to the generally European approach of protecting the basic rights and wellbeing of all our citizens, and will strike to defend it if necessary.
You are basically saying that living in Europe in a university city cost anything between 6000 and 20000 euros each year.
Maybe a bit high, but I think I can agree.
But living is a cost all around the world, and universities in Europe add a very low overhead on top of it, while universities in US can easily triple your cost of living, so I still don't see your point
In Germany students receive no grant (other than the regular Kindergeld for children) unless their parents together earn less than 40k before taxes.
My point is that the statement that salaries can be low because university has no cost is wrong. The cost is significant even without tuition and therefore salaries absolutely matter.
And without even a shred of doubt, a US tech salary of supposedly around 150k compared to perhaps 80k in Germany more than balances the extra costs for university over a time of 20 years that the kids grow up.
If they don’t know, that’s a red flag. Id expect it to be about 20-25 if it also includes sick leave. 30-40 means people really take the policy seriously.
> you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age
As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. Health insurance for a couple (assuming you can get it and it covers anything that you might have wrong) is about the same cost as my mortage here in the UK.
It's also not a government mandated retirement age, it's the age that the government will provide financial support to you. It's feasible for someone on a median income in the UK (where I live) to retire before they hit 66, as long as they prepare. Someone making a median income in the US is unlikely to be able to.
> which is increasing
Again, technically true but also misleading. It's not just steadily increasing, there's only so far it can go. The equivalent age in the US is already 70, fwiw.
> Our economic growth across the EU is stagnant
The horror. Personally, I'll take stagnant economic growth over statistics that get pumped by tech firms that are richer than entire countries in europe - Microsoft and Apple are individually worth more than Italy.
> These are not things to be celebrated.
US cost of living is skyrocketing (they're behind us at the moment, but their COL was already higher so the comparison is tough). Inequality levels in the US are still wildly higher than anywhere in europe (even the UK), the US has massive social problems that don't exist on the same scale here, etc.
These are not things to be celebrated either.
I studied at university and my parents paid nothing. Even as an adult student could I go back and get the grant part. In Sweden the state pays for you to study.
[1] https://www.csn.se/languages/english/student-grants-and-loan...
The point of vacation days is that they are fully paid by the employer. Unpaid time off usually isn't a problem (depends on the type of work of course), as long as the employer can plan around it (e.g. I currently work 4 days a week at 20% pay cut at a German company).
But then again, you don't blow half your salary in health care, don't risk having to claim for bankruptcy every time you get in an ambulance, you have access to the highest quality of education for basically free, and many others. You are also in an incredibly privileged job. In the real world, the US has a higher poverty rate than Germany does.
>you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age
So will most americans. And many of them will keep working past that age, because their pensions does not afford them basic living conditions. Just because you work in an extremely privileged sector where some of us can retire at 40 and do cocaine all day long doesn't mean the rest of the world can. Have some empathy.
>Our economic growth across the EU is stagnant.
growth growth growth must growth growth good growth necessary. This is the behaviour of cancer, not of an organised society.
>These are not things to be celebrated.
If you are unable to see anywhere past 5 meters in front of you and half an hour in time, indeed. For anyone with an inkling of reason an empathy, Germany is, objectively, a better place to live in in average than the US. And this is coming from a neighbour that can find plenty of reasons to shit on Germany.
The US government requires that women who have been at their job for more than one year get 12 weeks of unpaid time off. But many people can't afford to not be paid, so they don't take the full amount.
Women who have been at their job for less than one year legally get 0 days off.
Less than 25% of US women have any type of paid maternity leave.
You mean the ones that are getting ignored and violently repressed with police behavior that Iran considers overly violent ? Don't worry, we're getting to the American approach of a job market: work, or die.
> little ability to build wealth.
France is the third country in the world with the most millionaires.
Uh, no, France follows the European-wide bachelor's master's doctorate system when it comes to granting european credits. Which means that, yes, you can follow the normal cycle of 3 years (license/bachelor's), 5 years (masters), 7 years (doctorage), and these will basically count if you're looking to study abroad.
Some of my coworkers have 2 years of studies (IUT/BTS). Some have 4 (M1). Some of the PhDs in my company have 9 years, other 11, others are both working and researching at the same time. There's no mandatory 3 years.
In the US if things go as planned, you have a house, two cars, health insurance, and you can pay for college for your kids. If they don't go well you can be in real trouble depending on what exactly went wrong.
In Europe if they don't go as planned, you still have access to housing and healthcare, and your kids can still get a degree. If things go as planned, you are paying for the people who weren't so lucky.
In the US, most highly-skilled senior engineers will be multi-millionaires in their 40s which means that they can immediately retire and pay out of pocket for private health insurance covering the entire family without even making a dent on their principal. Even if that wasn't an option, one can get health insurance via one's spouse or work a few hours part-time for an employer that provides it.
I retired in my 40s and spent the last 10 years living in both the US and multiple European countries (with a lot of time spent in Germany as I have family there). While I've so far enjoyed living in Europe, the worsening downward slope in quality of life is more obvious here than in the US. Unrestrained immigration is a big problem that's going to get a lot worse in the next decades and is already rapidly eroding the much praised European social safety nets.
Ultimately, US offers optionality which means that one isn't chained like a slave to a grossly inefficient disintegrating socialist state for the rest of one's life.
Have you ever been personally affected by something as abstract as "low GDP growth"? Or public strikes except maybe a bit of inconvenience? And what do you need "wealth" for except to reduce financial risks that are much lower in a civilized country to begin with?
Before that, 70 euros? Where were you living, Freising?
Two external rings were around 50 euros at the time, and many students rent inside the (old) 4 inner rings, or the first external one if you study in Garching
What about the less capable though? Do we just forget they exist?
Munich is the most expensive Germany city, just saying...
I don't think this conversation is worth continuing if you consider the US a bastion of freedom and the entirety of europe being entrapped to socialism.
From what I know, I work for a very large insurance company, it's mostly healthcare department due to consequences of COVID. Which shouldn't have happened, but it id.
> This include Germany, the 'chosen child' every proponent points at in these discussions
I'm not German and I do not particularly trust Germany, in fact I think it's one of the worst Western European country to live and work.
> A few weeks off barely makes a dent
But it makes a difference, that's the point.
I was simply pointing out that paid vacation it's a tool that's very useful for companies too, as for the 70s and th 80s, I was there, it was much worse than today.
My parents worked for the national healthcare in my Country, in 12 hours shift, 5 consecutive nights. Now it's 8 hour shifts for a maximum of two consecutive nights and then you get mandatory 36 hours off and morning shifts for a week.
Try working 6 days a week for a month and then 5 days a week for a month and see how much those "only few days" make a dent in your well being.
> Surprise, that's the same culture that exists in most EU-countries. Just less hardcore.
I work 220 days/year and I'm off 145 days, it's pretty standard here if you have a standard contract, so no freelance, no contractor, no off the books, etc. (230 work days might be closer to the average, I got +10 days of holidays for thermal treatment, to cure my chronic sinusitis, yes, we have that too and the State also pays for the treatments)
Which is not exactly a "few weeks".
Could be better, but could be US style or Japan style.
p.s. the law in japan just forces employers out of work at least for a few days to counter their extreme workaholic culture, which is nothing like what we have here in Europe.
From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...)
Minimum mandatory paid vacation days, normalized for a five-day workweek:
Japan: 6–10 days
My Country: 23–28 days
I don't think workers' rights movements and government policies that promote said rights are really centered around uplifting highly-skilled senior engineers. Certainly if you have in-demand talent, migrate to whatever country pays the most for it. You have that luxury
Which causes companies to be very slow in hiring people, because if business turns they have less flexibility. European countries have some of the highest (youth) unemployment rates in the OECD:
* https://data.oecd.org/unemp/youth-unemployment-rate.htm
* https://www.oecd.org/employment/unemployment-rates-oecd-upda...
You just run out of paid sick days. The employer will just drop you.
Cost of living is skyrocketing where in the US and to what degree higher than its EU equivalent? The EU has borne the brunt of inflation so I'm having a hard time seeing where EU citizens are paying less to live than Americans.
> The horror. Personally, I'll take stagnant economic growth over statistics that get pumped by tech firms that are richer than entire countries in europe - Microsoft and Apple are individually worth more than Italy.
Ok. Economic growth is not a vanity metric for pumped up tech firms to move the needle on. Economic growth has direct effects on comparative quality of life. Trying to make some other, vaguely conspiratorial, equivalence is ignorant at the least.
Alright, very small proportion of the population
>senior engineers
even smaller
>highly-skilled senior engineers
I cannot even begin to tell you how small of a proportion it is. By the way, you forgot a factor:
>highly-skilled senior engineers that happen to live in the right area (read: SF or NYC) and that are in the right domain
cool cool cool, so a few thousand people per generation can retire comfortably at 40. I'm sure the other 300 million of americans are happy to hear about that. Anything as long as you got yours, right ?
Where is that, that you get 145 days of vacation?
You just give them their notice period whenever you feel like it and you're done with them, no need to PIP them or look for reasons to let them go.
This is not entirely true. They are more considerate in hiring which means layoffs, including mass layoffs, happen more rarely as they have consequences.
But they can fire people (and they do) when things go bad. This is one of most common reasons for firing people. What they cannot do is to fire me today and tomorrow hire someone else to exactly the same things that I was doing unless I was doing something wrong and they justify it.
It includes weekends (52 of them), sick leave (paid), thermal treatments (paid), national holidays (paid, unless on a non-working day) and vacation (24 days, paid)
I also get 8 hours of paid permits per month, but I can take at max 4 consecutive hours per day. They are valid for a year, if I haven't used them after that, they get paid and the counter resets.
all of that in Italy.
My current company gives me 20 days (combined vacation and sick) but we only get 6 paid holidays.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-...
I can't think of an area of the economy anywhere that is more policy based than energy.
Both sound bad to me, but I can to a certain extent understand the logic behind the first option in terms of the financial interests of the company. I can definitely see a "Sorry Ashley, you're out of paid sick days so we won't be paying your salary this month, we can't afford paying for nothing. I hope you recover and can come back to work with us soon!". The way we make up for this in Spain (and I'm assuming in varying similar ways in other countries) is by having the Social Security start taking charge of growing percentages of the employee's salary during sick leave as it prolongs in time, so as to reduce the impact on the business.
The second "drop you" sounds much worse though. You have an illness or an accident bad enough that it exhausts your paid sick days, so your employer simply sacks you out of impatience? And what happens to the employment-dependent health insurance which (I assume) was what was covering you on your long sick leave? "Sorry Ashley, you're out of paid sick days so we're firing you. I hope you recover enough from your severe TBE before your savings run out so you can find a new job. Also I hope you weren't depending too much on our health insurance plan for rehab. Good luck!".
Do you ever give a thought to the vast majority of Americans who make less than you? Or even to the vast majority of tech workers who make less than you?
I guess this is what it really boils down to. Here in Europe we don't have to establish college funds, go bankrupt because of a heart disease, become homeless due to being out of work or get our kids shot in a primary school. We prefer to take a less materialistic approach to life and priorities at the cost of not being so fixated on "wealth".
Americans are just built differently
When this happens you lose your insurance too, usually at the end of the month. You can pay around $800-1200 a month to keep it though, more if there’s a spouse or kids
Well, 30k-100k is about right for the annual cost of undergrad in the US and school costs are much more commonly discussed as per year than in total around here.
>My point is that the statement that salaries can be low because university has no cost is wrong. The cost is significant even without tuition and therefore salaries absolutely matter.
That seems a bit misleading as well. Almost all of that cost is unrelated to university attendance. People incur costs for food and rent regardless of whether they're university students.
Comparing economic growth to cancer is extremely incorrect. Cancer grows unchecked causing pain and then death due to a failure of the body's regulatory system. Economic growth happens broadly because your population is growing and you are keeping up production per unit of labor and/or because you develop technology/business improvement that increases production per unit of labor. The latter causes abundance and better life for everyone (even when an outsized portion of the benefit is captured by the creator of the benefit) and the former keeps the standard of living possible for everyone and are very good things. If you want to talk cancer in economic terms that would be market power abuse, not growth. Market power abuse comes in the form of monopoly/oligopoly and the pricing power that situation allows and almost always slows growth (as the monopolist/oligopolist raises prices and decrease production to maximize profits).
In the context of a functioning regulatory system growth is extremely good. Right now governments fail at regulating by regulating both too much (try getting a new drug through the FDA for example) or too little (why hasn't microsoft, google, amazon, facebook, etc. all been broken up by antitrust regulation???). It is correct to lay blame on the regulator and incorrect to lay blame on growth.
Wait until you find out about Prop 13 and how that new 80 year old $1.5m house you bought costs 10x in taxes what everyone else on the block pays because they got there in the 70s and 80s.
It absolutely did:
> Tuition was 500 EUR per semester, so around 80 EUR/month.
Possibly it was edited in after you wrote your comment, but it's there clear as day.
The American obsession with making children pay their own way for everything is counterproductive at a social level and frankly revealing (and sickening) in terms of what it says about us as a people. God forbid someone (a literal child!) “gets something for nothing”.
This is really the core problem with America: a significant chunk of the population is literally mean and cruel and antisocial, in the sense that they oppose the idea of helping others as a concept in itself. People will search for reasons to justify their inherent belief that it should not be done. In fact in many cases they will actively promote cruel and counterproductive policies because it makes them feel better!
And as a result there's really not a single social system in america that is not rotted to the core even if it exists. Social Security is an insane mess to be on. Programs like food stamps are thrown to the states who underfund them in the best of cases, and in many times actually sabotage or deliberately shrink them, even when it results in receiving less money for the programs. That's the goal!
Talent in Australia etc is just as awesome and doesn't burn itself out while being productive. Having sane and "fair" working conditions goes a long way.
I mean they have disposable income measures that account for all that as well as welfare programs. In the end disposable incomes in the US make half of the first world look like third world:
https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm (click table, and pick gross including transfers)
You can also see % of that spent on housing, US is lower than most EU countries
Kinda seems like you're just arguing that being very slow to hire has big advantages.
Area more depending on policy: construction, food production, Healthcare, education, military.
Microsoft, motherfucking Microsoft, starts you off at 15 days of PTO per year. I’m not really sure why people are itching to work there.