zlacker

[parent] [thread] 58 comments
1. PedroB+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-26 12:49:35
Who has been mismanaged for at least a decade and depends on Google to pay their bills..

I'm a FF user since the early 00's and Firefox will mostly not go away because Google has an interest in using it against monopoly accusations but the reality is bleak..

And the reality is these people ( Google in this case ) are so far removed from any moral compass about the Web ( at least what most people here think of "the Web" ) that it's near impossible to do anything about it. These companies are huge and from top to bottom there are certain groups that are hired guns to do a job, no matter what "job" it is, they'll do it, achieve those KPIs, get promoted, get paid. Even for their own detriment in the future, it doesn't matter. Big money now, screw the rest.

Btw, this is how every big company operated since forever, the only "news" here is the disproportionate impact their acts do to the World due to their huge size and influence.

replies(7): >>bee_ri+I1 >>gmerc+L1 >>ChatGT+j4 >>virapt+s8 >>Renaud+Cc >>ddq+zk >>prmous+is
2. bee_ri+I1[view] [source] 2023-07-26 12:58:26
>>PedroB+(OP)
I hear Firefox is mismanaged all the time, but it seems to be a perfectly fine browser for the most part. I hear all about sites that won’t render in comments on this website, but they must all be internal tools or something because I never encounter them.
replies(5): >>wsgeor+u2 >>MildRa+L2 >>gamach+U8 >>oxygen+Sc >>xlix+zw
3. gmerc+L1[view] [source] 2023-07-26 12:58:52
>>PedroB+(OP)
You’re gonna have to swallow your pride and use the best option here. If you are American you already have lifelong training in this dynamic and you know if you don’t, it just gets so much worse.
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4. wsgeor+u2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:01:53
>>bee_ri+I1
Some Google services I regularly depend on (like YouTube and Google Meet) don't work as well on Firefox as they do on Chrome, in ways that actually matter. Besides that I think most websites work fine.
replies(4): >>kristi+r6 >>amjd+79 >>coffee+Ye >>MSFT_E+Qh
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5. MildRa+L2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:03:03
>>bee_ri+I1
I sparingly run into sites that don't render properly on Firefox but they do exist. As an example, Ticketmaster's account page has problems on Firefox that I don't get on Chromium.
replies(3): >>bee_ri+n4 >>pzo+n7 >>everdr+gu
6. ChatGT+j4[view] [source] 2023-07-26 13:10:06
>>PedroB+(OP)
Who has been mismanaged for at least a decade and depends on Google to pay their bills..

I don't see how this matters, it's an open source project, if people find enough value, it will be forked and improved by community or a new organization will form around it. This is the beauty of open source, you must embrace.

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7. bee_ri+n4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:10:25
>>MildRa+L2
Firefox is helping you, Ticketmaster is evil.
replies(1): >>lxgr+kf
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8. kristi+r6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:19:42
>>wsgeor+u2
What's wrong with Youtube? I haven't noticed anything.
replies(1): >>wsgeor+2a
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9. pzo+n7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:22:48
>>MildRa+L2
I have the same - not sure if its related to many privacy plugins in my Firefox but e.g. google maps still doesn't render as sharp as in Chromium browsers - seems like using rasterized tiles.
10. virapt+s8[view] [source] 2023-07-26 13:27:31
>>PedroB+(OP)
I'm not really seeing the dilemma here. Would you choose a browser from a mismanaged organisation, or a browser from a corp actively subverting the very basic idea of having a web client you can control, which has a chance of forever changing how we get to interact with businesses online? (In likely the worst way possible)

Seriously, how is this a question? (Unless you want to go with another independent option, then sure)

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11. gamach+U8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:29:19
>>bee_ri+I1
The Mozilla Foundation is arguably mismanaged. Firefox does ok, but could go further if the Foundation invested more in FF development and less on… other things.
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12. amjd+79[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:29:58
>>wsgeor+u2
I haven't noticed any issues on YouTube after subscribing. Before that it used to glitch once in a while possibly to penalize the ad blocking. But that may have been the behaviour in Chrome too for all I know.

Google Meet does have some key features missing on Firefox such as blurring / changing video background.

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13. wsgeor+2a[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:33:44
>>kristi+r6
TBF YouTube has gotten better (see sibling comment), but Google Meet is really what matters here for me. There's also offline mode in Google Docs, which I use regularly because I'm not guaranteed a good-enough connection wherever I go.

Firefox does some things better (like PiP video playback on most websites, like YouTube!) but others are so poorly done (like Profiles) compared to Chrome that it overall makes Chrome my first choice browser.

replies(1): >>mort96+8k
14. Renaud+Cc[view] [source] 2023-07-26 13:43:44
>>PedroB+(OP)
None of that should prevent anyone from using Firefox. There are no alternatives, nearly all other browsers are built on Chromium.

Making FF more prominent will not give Google more power, it will give Mozilla more power to negotiate better deals with Google and Bing to become the default search engine, because in the world of browsers, that's what pays the bills.

Giving more power to Mozilla hinges on them having a larger user-base so their voice is heard on these technical issues.

I'm tired of people complaining about how much better they could do "if only" this, or that FF was % slower on some tasks 10 years ago.

Firefox is a better alternative. It's the only alternative, and we can make more demand on its direction if we actually use it.

It doesn't mean that we shouldn't hold Mozilla to higher standards, but if we keep waiting for them to be perfect before we will consider using and pushing FF, we're just going to lose the only alternative not controlled by Google or Microsoft.

It's Firefox here and now. There probably won't be a tomorrow otherwise. Google is making that very clear.

replies(2): >>lxgr+le >>Utopia+fn
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15. oxygen+Sc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:44:24
>>bee_ri+I1
I'm surprised not to see more love for Librewolf here on HN.

It's just the latest Firefox release, recompiled without all the Mozilla telemetry, and with all the settings flipped to more secure/private defaults so all the tracking features are opt-in instead of opt-out.

replies(2): >>jwells+ti >>replet+C71
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16. lxgr+le[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:50:08
>>Renaud+Cc
Exactly. Also, if some anecdata can help change a mind: Firefox is a really good browser these days. I use it quite heavily, and it hasn’t disappointed in the last three or so years since I switched from Chrome.

About the only use case I still need Chrome for is for sites requiring experimental web APIs not supported by Firefox, such as Web USB or Web Bluetooth. Site compatibility for everything else, including very heavy web apps, is just fine.

History sync is encrypted, which is what made me switch over in the first place (Chrome deactivates history sync when activating end-to-end encryption – go figure…)

replies(1): >>rkange+yk
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17. coffee+Ye[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:52:24
>>wsgeor+u2
Yes. Google uses chrome-only APIs in a few of its own products and falls back not so gracefully.

Which sort of underscores the monopoly point. There’s no universal free/cheap alternative to Meet, further entrenching Chromium.

replies(1): >>notpus+6q
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18. lxgr+kf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:54:13
>>bee_ri+n4
Maybe so, but asking somebody to not go to shows of their favorite bands anymore as a form of protest against Ticketmaster and/or Google is a bit much. Unfortunately, some venues seem to be Ticketmaster only at this point. Sometimes you’ve got to choose your battles.
replies(2): >>martin+Lo >>prmous+Os
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19. MSFT_E+Qh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:03:19
>>wsgeor+u2
I believe google has intentionally made google maps near unusable in firefox. It's been consistently working worse and worse every year. I feel like about 8 years ago there used to be parity between them.
replies(3): >>timeon+uk >>prmous+7t >>bee_ri+fp1
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20. jwells+ti[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:05:08
>>oxygen+Sc
Honestly I think the name of the project might be limiting its adoption. It’s sometimes annoying for the more technically inclined among us, but branding matters a lot. You need a name that’s snappy and memorable, which “Librewolf” is not.

Firefox is actually a pretty good example of good branding. It’s short, rolls off the tongue, has pleasant alliteration, and evokes mental imagery.

replies(2): >>HeckFe+Bj >>prox+Do
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21. HeckFe+Bj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:09:38
>>jwells+ti
I wonder how those ‘use GNU IceCat’ conversations went, if they ever happened.
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22. mort96+8k[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:12:17
>>wsgeor+2a
I never used Firefox profiles, but Firefox container tabs work really well IMO. I much prefer them to Chrome's profiles for managing work vs personal logins.
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23. timeon+uk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:13:40
>>MSFT_E+Qh
I rarely use google maps so haven't noticed. Only thing I really miss from OSM based services is street-view.
replies(1): >>MSFT_E+ym
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24. rkange+yk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:14:01
>>lxgr+le
I switched to Firefox for the idealogical reasons above and was pleasantly surprised to find that it was a net improvement.

The only site I have compatibility issues with on desktop is MS Teams and even then it's only for voice/video calls, everything else works fine.

Firefox Android is a slightly less happy place. The password manager doesn't work very well (am moving away from the built-in one) and I can't log in on Amazon (which is important because I can't buy Kindle books in the app because of the Play Store).

replies(2): >>Pawger+tq >>FooBar+mu
25. ddq+zk[view] [source] 2023-07-26 14:14:04
>>PedroB+(OP)
Sad that the broader message of this post was ignored in favor of “but you should use Firefox” replies.
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26. MSFT_E+ym[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:20:50
>>timeon+uk
Its really bad, it takes almost a minute for the site to "stabilize", and even then, default text in the search bar is overlaid with whatever you're typing, a good 30 seconds to load a destination.

A chrome browser on the same device has maps behave almost instantaneously.

replies(1): >>timeon+rp
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27. Utopia+fn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:23:24
>>Renaud+Cc
In addition to just using Firefox, people can donate to the Mozilla Foundation. I give a few bucks every month.

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/who-we-are/

replies(1): >>gkbrk+4o
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28. gkbrk+4o[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:26:23
>>Utopia+fn
Almost none of that money goes to the development of Firefox though.
replies(2): >>Bizarr+yJ >>asadot+ir1
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29. prox+Do[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:28:36
>>jwells+ti
Unfortunately on the whole techies are absolutely poor at marketing, which is a skill all by itself.
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30. martin+Lo[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:29:15
>>lxgr+kf
Yes, because the ones who owns the venues also own Ticketmaster.

Live Nation is the name.

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31. timeon+rp[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:32:41
>>MSFT_E+ym
That really sounds like intentional.
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32. notpus+6q[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:35:14
>>coffee+Ye
How about Jitsi? https://meet.jit.si/

It's free and open source, works everywhere, has stuff like background replacement, and doesn't require signup at all.

replies(1): >>FooBar+Zu
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33. Pawger+tq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:37:05
>>rkange+yk
Interesting. Firefox android works great for me, but Firefox windows gets very slow on my machine. I don't use their password manager on either, though, so I can't attest to that.
replies(2): >>JohnFe+Nv >>teddyh+AN
34. prmous+is[view] [source] 2023-07-26 14:44:08
>>PedroB+(OP)
> Who has been mismanaged for at least a decade

Do you think Google is better managed?

replies(1): >>PedroB+U12
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35. prmous+Os[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:45:52
>>lxgr+kf
I never used ticketmaster and it is not a monopoly. Choose the right company to sell you tickets.
replies(2): >>lxgr+sx >>yencab+5J
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36. prmous+7t[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:47:23
>>MSFT_E+Qh
I am using it regularly without issues on firefox so I am not sure what you are talking about and definitely not in the "unusable realm". Can you be more specific?
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37. everdr+gu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:51:37
>>MildRa+L2
This is going to be a problem which compounds more as Google gains more ground. “Oh, I love internet freedom, but I really need to visit website X.” As more and more websites adopt Chrome’s standards, Chrome will be the only browser that works.
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38. FooBar+mu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:51:50
>>rkange+yk
Firefox Android OOMs whenever it sees an article from The Guardian.
replies(1): >>atq211+LA
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39. FooBar+Zu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:54:16
>>notpus+6q
Jitsi is super easy to use, and I still can't get older people to use it. They just hear "Zoom" on CNN so they think, "I'm supposed to use Zoom. Other things are weird." So much behavior is just driven by anxiety and habituation.
replies(2): >>yjftsj+nJ >>notpus+LE3
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40. JohnFe+Nv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:57:28
>>Pawger+tq
> but Firefox windows gets very slow on my machine.

This is why I don't use FF (although I'm on Linux). It's unusably slow for me. My experience is not the most common one (indicating that there's something about my ecosystem that FF hates), but I haven't been able to make FF work in any of the releases starting a couple of years back, I think.

I don't browse on my phone at all, so I won't be using FF there purely for that reason.

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41. xlix+zw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:00:13
>>bee_ri+I1
I've been using FF as my default browser on desktop and mobile for at least 4 years. I've had zero issues. In fact, if I need to use their dev tools, I find them superior to chrome. I don't understand the shade Mozilla gets thrown at them.
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42. lxgr+sx[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:03:17
>>prmous+Os
Surely you've been to shows at every possible venue to be able to extrapolate that bold of a claim from your personal experience?
replies(1): >>prmous+1K
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43. atq211+LA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:13:46
>>FooBar+mu
This is just more anecdata, but I'm exclusively using Firefox on Android and have never had issues with The Guardian. In fact, at this very moment there is a Guardian article linked on the front page, and I've visited it without an issue.

I don't doubt your experience, but it's clearly not universal.

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44. yencab+5J[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:40:47
>>prmous+Os
Ticketmaster is the only company selling tickets to several venues, there is no choice of who to buy from available there.

The only choice is to boycott your favorite artist because their record label made a deal with the wrong company. That's too many layers of indirection, for many fans.

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45. yjftsj+nJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:41:42
>>FooBar+Zu
Well Zoom also isn't Meet, so for the purposes of this conversation that seems like an advantage actually?
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46. Bizarr+yJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:42:14
>>gkbrk+4o
That which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without analysis.
replies(1): >>saurik+NQ
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47. prmous+1K[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:43:38
>>lxgr+sx
No but appart from festivals (which were not relying on ticket master) I haven't seen tickets sold by only one company. Usually there are different ones and also some plain old in person in ticket office of department stores.
replies(1): >>MildRa+jn1
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48. teddyh+AN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:56:12
>>Pawger+tq
Is it still slow for you? Have you tested it recently?

<>>35458746 >

replies(1): >>Pawger+kt1
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49. saurik+NQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 16:06:40
>>Bizarr+yJ
The same thing can be said about the opposite stance you are taking. The question is: do we already know things, and how easy are the things we don't already know to look up?

Regardless, I have Googled this for you: please return the favor by helping others learn to use search engines in the future before leaving comments insinuating that they are lying.

The tldr (as you'll probably insist on that also) is that Firefox finds Mozilla, not the other way around, as the latter is a non-profit while the former is a FOR-profit, so Mozilla actually can't directly fund Firefox.

https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/ow9k0y/is_there_a_...

https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/a98gmi/donations_t...

>>24200395

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50. replet+C71[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:08:34
>>oxygen+Sc
It's behind by some weeks on major, contributing new features is difficult because most dev effort seems to be on integrating upstream. It is a great easy path for the less technical to 'more privacy', but pretty much if you are a developer just harden it yourself IMO.
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51. MildRa+jn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 18:00:47
>>prmous+1K
There are venues that are Ticketmaster specific because Ticketmaster's parent company owns the venue and some acts just use Ticketmaster because they are the most popular ticketing service. If I want to go to UFC 292 for example, I have to get my tickets through Ticketmaster. UFC isn't using some service that shows up on indiehacker
replies(1): >>prmous+RF3
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52. bee_ri+fp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 18:07:20
>>MSFT_E+Qh
I think this example is weirdly informative to me.

I mostly use maps via an app (Apple or Google, they seem to be the same for basic use). Usually if I’m using a map, I’ll be using it in my car for navigation, so Firefox doesn’t even come to mind.

I suspect, on top of the “maybe it is internal apps” thing I mentioned at first, some of the really bad sites are the really interactive ones, I probably just use the app without even thinking of it.

replies(1): >>MSFT_E+pw1
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53. asadot+ir1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 18:15:00
>>gkbrk+4o
Much of it goes to policy issues like this very one, and to government education about these kinds of things, and to other important efforts closely aligned with this exact issue. Mozilla does both "advocacy" and "product" and that two pronged fork exists to serve people and the web, not massive ad companies.
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54. Pawger+kt1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 18:22:47
>>teddyh+AN
Yes, it's still my default browser -- work and home. I put up with it because I browse far more on my phone than on my computer.
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55. MSFT_E+pw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 18:33:16
>>bee_ri+fp1
I like to explore maps a lot, and its simply better on a full desktop screen compared to a phone.

So its a regular drag for me. If I really need to move quick to find something, I'll begrudgingly open chrome.

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56. PedroB+U12[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 20:36:27
>>prmous+is
One has a browser that has +60% market share, the other went from ~55% to 3%.

One company dominates "the Web" and pulls these shenanigans all every other year, the other one is totally dependent of the former to pay their bills.

So yeah, Google has been better managed than Mozilla. That doesn't invalidate Google's execs are a bunch of lizards on the now common SV ego trip and screw up all the time, but they can and ensure they can continue to do so, Mozilla is not in the same position and part of blame must be attributed to them.

replies(1): >>prmous+PB3
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57. prmous+PB3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 08:41:43
>>PedroB+U12
Dwindling market share of firefox is pretty much not related to how the mozilla foundation is managed. They had 55% of the market when the only competition was:

- ie6 which was a security nightmare for everybody

- browsers like Opera developed by very small companies against which competition was more based on merit

The only way for Mozilla have been able to maintain its market share against chrome would have to manage to reach both these requirements:

- build the #1 smartphone OS in the market in term of market share to have it preinstalled everywhere

- build the #1 search engine in term of market share to advertise using it everytime the user search for something.

Both feats requiring:

- financial means that were out of reach from the Mozilla foundation at any moment in time regardless of its management.

- giving up on mozilla ethics and values to be on same level as the definitely evil competitor.

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58. notpus+LE3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 09:03:24
>>FooBar+Zu
I've watched Louis Rossmann's video on Jitsi a couple weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzt0tzsaWDE

He provides a nice piece of anecdata there: for one-on-one meetings, you can just send people a link and usually they just join. Even if they've sent a link to Zoom or Meet or whatever, you still can say “hey, join this instead” and it will work. I haven't tried this yet, but sounds plausible to me.

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59. prmous+RF3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 09:14:15
>>MildRa+jn1
A fraction of a fraction of a fraction of all tickets/venues available. So hard to boycott.
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