You do not and you cannot. It was written in stone once Chrome dominated the browser market. What Chrome (Google) wants, Chrome (Google) gets. Despite all the good engineering Google wants to sell ads, that's all there is to it. And the result is this proposal.
> The saving grace here might be that Firefox won't implement the proposal.
It's irrelevant and we are an irrelevant minority. Unless people switch to FF in droves the web is Chrome. And they won't because at the end of the day people just want to get home from their shitty jobs and stream a show. As long as that works everything else is a non-issue.
Heh. I was there when it was IE6, and people said the same.
Just doing some quick searching - the first numbers that come up when you search for "how many people used the internet in the year 2000" are on the order of 350 million or so. Comparatively, now, in 2023, Reddit alone has some 450 million users. It would seem right now that Tiktok has about three times the number of active users than there were total Internet users 23 years ago.
Additionally, there are literally hundreds of billions of dollars now resting on Chrome remaining the dominant browser.
Short of government intervention (or absolutely monumental fuckup on Google's part somehow), Chrome is here to stay.
But it still happened, against M$, who was the behemoth of the time, so things are never impossible.
We are the people with the most influence on the tech. We are prescriptors. We are legion.
– Yes but Chrome is a tad faster and I have my bookmarks and my favorites extension and blablablabla…
— Then you are the root cause of the problem. If you are not ready to sacrifice an ounce of comfort to save the web, then you are the one killing the web.
Simple: install Firefox. Now.
(oh, and, by the way, also removes google analytics and all google trackers from the websites under your control. That’s surprizingly easy to do and a huge blow in Google monopoly. There are plenty of alternatives)
Yeah, not for long. Go back and read the proposed changes.
I suppose Apple may object on the grounds of being a "privacy focused" company, but I'll believe that when I see it. I'm not gonna sit here holding my breath for these megacorps to do the right thing.
It is not like you'll be loosing much. This is the time to change, while we still have other players in the market.
The point is that if chrome implements this, netflix, amazon, facebook etc might decide they'll use this feature and only permit browsers who implement this to use this site.
Even if the only browser that does so is chrome, that's fine because chrome's market share is big enough that they can ignore the rest.
Have fun using Firefox if half of the web locks you out or treats you like a second class citizen.
For the uninitiated: Germany's mobile phone network has been ridiculously expensive and unreliable for decades. Everyone else in Europe has done it better, because no one else thought they could extort 60 billion euros from the providers for RF spectrum licenses - we're still paying for that blatant debt-shifting today.
I think the comment you originally replied to is trying to say "use the other browsers, even if they are not good for much".
True. Try to screenshot anything from Apple TV+ content. You'll get a black image.
What, you think taking down the ad industry on the web is going to be painless?
There's a degree of saying no and opting out and controlling your own shit that you can do.
Some, like owning a phone and getting tracked to many degrees is inevitable but others, like software on a computer, is quite easy to think about.
You don't need to be a majority to go a different path. Linux users everywhere know this. We never needed the "year of the Linux desktop".
There's usually ways around the designated box. Obviously, get ready to be called names for not bowing down to authority... But you can ignore them and move on.
You are probably right, but there is one self-interested reason why Apple might resist implementing this - Apple doesn’t like the web competing with apps, and this is basically giving the web a capability that right now only apps (effectively) have.
There's no reason why the same can't happen here. The defeatism attitude helps with nothing and is part of the reason why this happens in the first place.
They considered it enough that Apple had a monopoly on distribution for apps for a device with ~50% marketshare in the US, and even less in Europe.
Imagine what they would do for something that has ~97%
If you do eventually run into a poorly crafted webpage that doesn't work on Firefox you have the wherewithal to decide if you are simply not going to use that site or hop over to chrome just this once.
But the important thing is checking in automatically as a Firefox user in the logs of every other site online. Push Firefox marketshare up and at least some places will be hesitant to write off Firefox as irrelevant.
Is this supposed to be a bad thing? It's almost made to sound like surviving without them would be tantamount to starving, but frankly we might be better served without them.
Almost no users want to be digital hermits. This protest approach has nobody following you up that mountain to the hermitage.
Most users are more comfortable with computers that are toasters, not (hackable) general purpose machines.
The flexibility to hack implies the flexibility to be owned. Users don't want to get owned. They hate that so much they'd voluntary choose an owner
We’re literally in the thread where we’re talking about the anti-consumer moves that are resulting from that consolidation. This is what it looks like when Google flexes that monopoly control and tells you how it’s going to be. EU doesn’t seem to care.
It took roughly 15 years for the EU to react to Apple's practices, and they have been anticompetitive from day one.
Chrome has caused no competitive damage to consumers or competitors (yet), give it time.
OAuth sites will let you change your OAuth provider or even better switch to a local account on their site and use a password manager so you don't tie everything to an OAuth provider unless the site will accept a self hosted one.
You only have to look at how they're (still) restricting PWAs to see they also have their own goals to preserve their walled garden and market share (as they should, it's a publicly listed company, but it's not the same as an open source alternative)
Put another way, my site is unappealing to bots, and frankly I don't care about bot traffic, because I don't have ads. So I don't feel the need to support this server-side.
Equally Amazon makes money selling goods, not ads. They don't need to know if its human or bot, they just need a credit card. [1] Netflix is subscription based, again doesn't care if its a "trusted device" or not. They want you make sure their content is available not blocked because my TV is "untrusted".
Sure, you'll end up using Chrome to use Google properties. But I don't really see the incentive for the non-ad-based Web to bother implementing this.
[1] it won't move the needle for fraud, fraud is easily done via trusted devices.
Then the game will switch to encrypted proxied traffic that you cannot block.
Then the adblocking software will switch to the GPU layer, and use machine learning and AI to wipe the region of memory in the GPU containing the ads (and replace it with something benign).
Then the next logical step from likes of google is a fully trusted computing environment - aka, you as an end user no longer control your own machine.
This is entirely predicted by Richard Stallman.
Sadly, Chrome is substantially more secure than Firefox.
we as tech early adopters and "leaders" in this space, we need to be telling family and friends to complain to those sites about such required support. If enough people complain to amazon that they don't want to use this google branded browser, i think there will be some pushback and the companies would be hesitant to drop support for firefox.
If you subscribe to Apple TV, you are literally voting with your dollars for more of this crap. Stop giving them money!
That includes password databases.
I can assure you most people don't think about their tech choices long enough to conclude anything like this.
The only way in which Chrome is more secure at anything appears to be securely forcing you to view ads via this API. And a shocking amount of malware fails to work when you use a running environment that 95% of society are not using.
You are far safer on Firefox than Chrome.
https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/how-to-bypass-website-captc...
That would accomplish nothing.
> But the important thing is checking in automatically as a Firefox user in the logs of every other site online.
No, that's not important. HN users are a tiny minority compared to the billions of people that use the web daily.
I'm sorry, there's no easy way to say this: Firefox is never coming back. The web of old is never coming back. It's over. Even if this particular proposal gets defeated somehow, a future similar proposal will make it through. There is nothing you or I can do about it. Google is more powerful than most governments, and they are vastly more powerful than any random group of like-minded people who get together on the Internet in the belief that they can accomplish something.
For example, they threaten to remove FaceTime and iMessage from UK iPhones if the government there changes the law on encryption [1].
[1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2023/07/20/apple-threatens-to-pull...
No. Firefox, beyond being slower, also keeps constantly displaying ads… for itself. Want to open a new tab? “Big Browser cares about your privacy, read how!” I just want to open a new tab!!! I’m working! Restarting? “Discover what’s new with Firefox”, “Hohoho, we care about your privacy, LOOK HOW MUCH WE CARE! ALSO WE HAVE NO ADS!” Worse, they suggest to solve privacy that I use Mozilla VPN. VPNs don’t solve privacy. Also, it’s a paid ad for a paid product.
Mozilla had also a staunch political slant, going as far as firing a CEO for a donation he made to the opposing group years ago. There is nothing neutral here, if you are not a leftist, it’s dangerous to use or even give your participation to that ecosystem.
Mozilla has failed to become the no-ads, better-ethics, privacy-aware navigator (pun intended). They keep performing worse actions than Google all the time.
Perhaps you haven’t been paying attention but macOS Sonoma—currently in beta, shipping this fall—has the best web app support we’ve seen in a mainstream operating system.
You can put a web app on the Dock using the Finder’s “Save to Dock” command for virtually any website or web app.
Not only do you get service workers, push notification, web app manifest support, etc. web apps have first class support in the Finder, Spotlight, Spaces, Mission Control, etc. [1].
[1]: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10120/
As the other commenter said, there's zero risk giving a dodgy site a randomly generated password used only for that site, the randomly generated password gives them no information or pathway to any other web site.
"Who owns Waterfox?"
"System1 now own Waterfox, but Alex Kontos is still leading the direction of Waterfox and will be for the foreseeable future."
And who's owner, System1, states at the top of their page[1]:
"System1 operates the most dynamic Responsive Acquisition Marketing Platform
Connecting high intent customers with advertisers at scale"
[0]: https://www.waterfox.net/docs/faq#5-who-owns-waterfox [1]: https://system1.com
See that's where I disagree. Rich governments like the EU or the US can and do have power to push regulations if they wanted to. Pretending we the people (in a broad sense), i.e. the state, have no power whatsoever to control the terms under which these companies operate within the state, is defeatist.
And then there's stuff like banks, government services, school services. You might not even be able to escape those ones.
One tab with an ad opening when the browser has updated every few weeks or so is not what I would call "keeps constantly displaying ads".
Amazon is one of the biggest ad networks on earth. They made $40bn from advertising last year using all the personal data they get from their paying customers.
>Netflix is subscription based, again doesn't care if its a "trusted device" or not.
Oh but they do care very much. Netflix requires DRM in desktop browsers and its own app on mobile platforms. And they launched and ad based plan recently.
It's a mistake to believe that advertising is the main problem and direct payments are the solution. Making a payment takes away more privacy than advertising alone ever could and hands personal data to payment schemes and banks on top of everything.
Of course, if you know a better browser (that is not Chromium-based), I'll be happy to hear your suggestions!
(1) Understands what this is about
(2) cares about its citizens' freedom
(3) has enough coherence to actually do something about it
It's not obvious to me that any of these apply. The EU is pushing -- in fits and starts -- towards self-reliance in its computing infrastructure, but at a slow pace.
It's the old twin airplane principal from the hacker's dictionary: the virtue of putting all your eggs in one basket if the basket is built very well.
Works for me. I don't need those sites/services. If they want to be actively hostile to me, I can vote with my feet/wallet.
I can't (nor do I wish to) control what other people do. Just what I do.
As it stands now, I block the bulk of scripts/ads/trackers/other spyware on my devices, and those who don't like that are free to block me from accessing their sites.
Maybe I'm missing something important here, but I don't need anything from Alphabet, Netflix, Meta or any other rapacious corporation. They can do what they like, and I will do the same.
>Have fun using Firefox if half of the web locks you out or treats you like a second class citizen.
If the above folks are who you consider "half the web" then, at least for me, nothing of value would be lost, as I don't use that garbage anyway.
The problem is that the web standards have now grown so much that it is impossible to write a complete new web browser from scratch. Firefox is not coming back, because Mozilla seems to prioritize other things than code quality and the actual usability of their software.
And yes, I know that the SerenityOS developers are trying to do it, but while some very advanced things work "good enough" in their browser so that Twitter and Discord's web client works to some extent, the more basic things are so broken that their browser cannot even render basic HTML 3.2 sites properly.
Google's end goal is probably to "deprecate" HTTP 1.x and force everyone into using their own replacement for the protocol. Their protocol is going to be like the thing they call "HTTP2", an insanely complex protocol that is impossible to implement by a small developer team. In the end their own protocol becomes a "rolling release" protocol that only works with Google's own app, at which point they can completely stop releasing RFCs for it.
Firefox came into the mainstream because of power-user recommendations and the browser ballots.
It should be illegal for a significan platform (say 10mln users) to make its own browser, or any really, the unquestioned default. Users should be prompted on first use, giving a randomly ordered selection of any capable browser. If users can just click through it the choice should be random.
This is the only way to maintain healthy competition and ensure independent yet functional standards. Otherwise incentives will continue to centralize power.
But it was a completely different situation.
- There was a huge influx of new internet users who were all asking their techy friends which browser to use. This is not the case now. People mostly stick with what they know.
- FF was the better product for pretty much all use cases. If this proposal does go through, this will not be the case. It's nice that FF can block ads, but it's ultimately useless if the average user won't be able to access Netflix/Youtube/Facebook/their bank account. It will be an objectively worse browser.
And as I said, the sustainable solution is browser ballots back by the force of law. It's worked where it's been tried.
Anti-trust based solely on narrow definitions of consumer harm on the other hand, serve only the capital owners. And they'll leverage and co-opt any and every popular and useful innovation: open source, community contributions, open standards, patterns light or dark, etc.
My personal phone, and my personal laptop and PC, run open source OSes and are as privacy-focused as I can make thrm. They're the ones I use to browse and talk to people, both on public and private platforms. They're the ones that have my photos, my books, my passwords, my movies and my music. (I don't use streaming services, except for YouTube via Newpipe.)
I do make sure that I always have at least one bank account with a bank that doesn't require SafetyNet or similar, and can therefore be accessed without needing the "official" phone. So far, all but one of my financial service providers work fine from my personal devices.
I think the dual-device approach will quickly become the only realistic one for individuals who want privacy in their computer use (which will remain a minority). I will even say that, although Google is doing this purely for the sake of ads and profits, it is not unreasonable to expect citizens to have an "official" online presence in the form of a highly standardised Internet client, without prejudicing their ability to use other ones. In the same way that you have an official residential address, without prejudicing your ability to have other mailboxes or live on the road.
He wasn't on the wrong side of a political issue he was on the wrong side of decency and morality. This ought not to be a leftist position nor should we fear that the tyranny of excessive concern for others may be imposed upon us. Should we decide to use Firefox for evil as it were the privacy both endorsed and adhered to by Mozilla precludes them discovering it let alone stopping us.
The position of user of Firefox and public face of Firefox are inherently different positions and come with different reasonable expectations but I think you knew that.
> it’s dangerous to use or even give your participation to that ecosystem.
Please describe precisely the threat model you fill most applicable
> keeps constantly displaying ads
For a definition of constantly redefined to mean rarely when a new major version comes out.
> They keep performing worse actions than Google all the time.
The context here is that google tracks everything you do and regularly shares it with the government including under terms that are obviously abusive of user privacy and including to repressive governments, are in the middle of attempting to destroy ad blocking by pushing locked down environments in the name of security. A move likely to have massive implications that will be impossible to manage or control in repressive dictatorships even if Google themselves do nothing to directly assist with mass surveillance in Orwellian states. Merely building general purpose tools virtually guarantees bad usage by repressive regimes. By contrast Mozilla has? Tried to pimp their VPN to you as part of their new version notification...
It really sounds like the Brenden Eich debacle has colored your perception of the situation and perhaps you need to step back and evaluate the situation objectively.
Essentially this doesn’t work because every email client I tried can’t handle the specific way my work email account does authorization and the login always fails. They also blocked POP/IMAP so that’s not an option either. No one else in a team of software engineers figured out a better way to access email so for now this is the best option
Why do you think that's acceptable?
Otherwise Palemoon is as doomed to obscurity as Firefox, if not moreso.
For number 2, the EU's new regulations above more easily replacable batteries, mandatory USB-C ports and such, in my eyes prove -- though not doubtlessly -- that they do care about walled gardens in tech.
Number 3 though, again, as I've alluded to before, doubtful. But possible in my eyes. Urgency is another thing you've mentioned, and -- let's say it again -- bureaucrats are not particularly known for solving a problem in the right time.
NB: don't misenterpret my use of 'bureaucrat[ic]' as a negative comment, it is just a fact, however boring.
And lot of people here squeal like stuck pigs if you suggest anything other than the Chrome monopoly. HM is a constant barrage of demanding that legislators force the Chrome monopoly to be extended to iOS devices!
Since then, Mozilla/Firefox has largely become irrelevant and absolutely no longer has the same privacy concerns and respects.
He donated money in opposition of a law he didn't want to pass. He didn't take anyone's rights away.
Where I work, we treat Chrome as the malware it is: It's banned both by technical measures and security policy. We deploy Firefox, and begrudgingly deal with Edge when people insist on a Chromium-based browser. (At least Microsoft added some modicum of privacy settings here.)
Here's what I've learned over the past several years: Web developers are lazy. We're commonly told such and such app or service "only works on Chrome" or they'll "only support on Chrome". When we call for support, half the time we'll get told it's because we're not on Chrome, and I have to actually prove to them on an isolated machine that the issue occurs on Chrome so they'll shut the heck up and do their job. "Oh, I found an issue on our server" after I spent two hours trying to convince them their app works fine on Firefox.
In most cases, things "not working on Firefox" entails exempting a site from the popup blocker. In 2023, troubleshooting alternative browsers is usually... roughly that easy. But blaming your web browser is easy and lets them shift blame, so that's what they do.
But enterprise software companies have completely turned Chrome into the modern Internet Explorer: The only browser they'll even deal with. And since a lot of people buy Google's marketing that they know security and aren't completely clueless how security works (they are), people have by and large given in and installed Chrome.
I'm aware Apple implemented similar tech a while ago, but I have infinitely less confidence that Google would use it responsibly.