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[parent] [thread] 86 comments
1. crhull+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-06-27 15:18:24
I'd encourage a bit more skepticism to this article. While this accusation could possibly be true, there are two things to keep in mind, which I am sharing having experience as a founder/CEO who has gone from startup to IPO:

1) This is taken from a complaint in a class action lawsuit. Class action lawyers are very similar to patent trolls whereby they can spin almost any story they want. And journalists go for clicks, so they amplify the sensationalism. It doesn't mean this is one of those, but a class action complaint should not just blindly be trusted.

2) There is a strong theme of "of course execs lie cheat steal at every turn" and I also think this narrative should be questioned. Ethics aside, the level of compliance in a public company is insanely high. Execs are already rich. To risk jailtime, which fraud can lead to, you'd need to see something more existential than slightly increasing margins on used van sales.

I felt inclined to comment as I've been on the other end of articles like this, and it is astounding the level of mind reading people have done into my intent and actions on things that were factually just not true at all. I also truly would find it very difficult to commit a broad organizational fraud even if I wanted to and my company is only 500 people.

If I had to make a prediction, the case is less black and white than it appears, and if there was fraud, it was probably committed at a non-executive level by the person whose P&L was directly tied to these resales. Or, it was done independently by the much smaller leasing company where this was more existential to them. It is highly unlikely to be a Fed Ex executive-level conspiracy.

I'm sure there are a few counter examples, such as say the VW emissions scandal, but I would counter these were the exceptions that proved the rule and in general when the C-level was involved was much higher stakes.

replies(18): >>zucked+z2 >>kevinv+N3 >>anigbr+se >>Frost1+ph >>delfin+Kh >>delfin+Mh >>burkam+Zh >>dghlsa+ej >>MarkMa+Ij >>hinkle+gk >>Alupis+ls >>curiou+5H >>sashan+eK >>johndh+hT >>freeja+3X >>WheatM+qY >>NoMore+0t1 >>scrubs+VY1
2. zucked+z2[view] [source] 2023-06-27 15:28:53
>>crhull+(OP)
Even if you turn out to be flat wrong, I still appreciate the level-headedness to consider how we got to this point and the urging we all slow down a bit before we all march on FedEx headquarters.
replies(1): >>fundad+Sl
3. kevinv+N3[view] [source] 2023-06-27 15:34:04
>>crhull+(OP)
I understand your defensiveness, but the article did not even imply that the CEO was directly implicated. That said, I think it is still at some level their responsibility if this fraud turns out to be true; “the person whose P&L was directly tied to these resales” still had ever stricter OKR’s they had to answer for, and apparently no double-checking or auditing was done because that person’s boss didn’t want to know. They were rewarded for numbers going up and to the right, as was their boss, as was their boss, up to the CEO.

Sorry, I just tire of narratives where when a corporation does something morally wrong, it’s the fault of nebulous capitalist hyper-optimization and no individuals are held accountable.

replies(2): >>koheri+M6 >>nine_z+Sd
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4. koheri+M6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:48:26
>>kevinv+N3
We need to make evidence based judgements, not accusation based judgements.

I'm tired of the outage-clickbait.

I'm here to learn, not to be emotionally manipulated.

replies(2): >>anigbr+jf >>Alexan+dw
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5. nine_z+Sd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 16:20:36
>>kevinv+N3
This is really the crux of the failure of organizations. The execs might not want fraud (or other problems) to happen.

But, upper and middle management don't care about the company as much as the execs. They would much rather show the numbers, earn their comp and fuck off, than worry about long term sustainability of the company or of their reports.

Has anyone really complained about middle management yet?

replies(1): >>salawa+4t
6. anigbr+se[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:23:00
>>crhull+(OP)
astounding the level of mind reading people have done

In this case, though, Fedex has just denied the allegations but not proffered any alternative explanation. Nature abhors a vacuum, and human nature abhors an information vacuum. Corporations habitually refuse to share information unless they are forced to do so legally, so they have only themselves to blame for the subsequent distrust by the public.

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7. anigbr+jf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 16:26:06
>>koheri+M6
There's evidence from one side in the lawsuits, while the defendants have so far declined to submit any for scrutiny. In any case, the title of this submission says that Fedex is 'accused' of fraud rather than having been found guilty of it, so you knew what you were getting before you clicked; you could have just ignored it.
replies(1): >>single+Wv
8. Frost1+ph[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:34:13
>>crhull+(OP)
>...if there was fraud, it was probably committed at a non-executive level by the person whose P&L was directly tied to these resales. Or, it was done independently by the much smaller leasing company where this was more existential to them.

I think most high-level executives are competent enough to create legal incentives and disincentives to their organization which typically are legal. The "lie, cheat, and steal" narrative is about functional outcomes and not so much about explicit follow through.

Executives are in positions they can craft goals and to some degree pass responsibility of details of those goals off to others. I can set unrealistic targets that are only attainable by cutting corners and be sure to make it clear I'll drop people who don't meet those targets or reward people who do. I can leave in-depth questioning about the approach (the potentially dirty details) to create a layer of plausible deniability.

It's as if I hire a driver to take me from point A to point B. That distance may be impossible to cover without violating an array of traffic laws. My goal as the passenger though is to traverse the space safely at some price. I don't really care about how it's done, I'll leave that to the driver. I can create pressure on a driver and/or apply selection bias to choosing a driver willing to take on my impossible request. At no point did I say: violate traffic laws, speed, etc. but I know that's what's going to happen to attain my goal. I never incriminate myself by making the goal generalized and as a passenger, I take on no legal risks for my driver violating traffic laws. Suddenly, using a crafted goal, careful selection, and money, I've created a situation for something illegal to happen. Should I be at fault? What if I even added to criteria of transporting me from A to B not to violate traffic laws but I give a wink wink, shove a little more money (incentive) at the problem, or turn the cheek when it occurs so I don't witness it. Am I still not at fault?

A caricature of this behavior in my opinion is Donald Trump who operates completely in the grey areas wherever possible, pushing or promoting questionable behavior but avoiding the provable cases where he's responsible. From my interaction with various executives over the years, this strategy isn't unique. It's certainly not everyone but impossible environments and requests are made on the daily. It happens from the highest levels and gets passed down and down.

9. delfin+Kh[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:35:36
>>crhull+(OP)
>1) This is taken from a complaint in a class action lawsuit. Class action lawyers are very similar to patent trolls whereby they can spin almost any story they want.

The complaint has 4 cited individuals and follows up on an already ongoing lawsuit with a used vehicle dealer that filed a lawsuit in 2017 over being scammed as well.

10. delfin+Mh[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:36:01
>>crhull+(OP)
>1) This is taken from a complaint in a class action lawsuit. Class action lawyers are very similar to patent trolls whereby they can spin almost any story they want.

The complaint class action references 4 affected independent individuals as victims.

But, this entire thing is in parallel with an already ongoing lawsuit by a used vehicle broker that filed a lawsuit in 2017 over being scammed as well.

https://cdllife.com/2021/fedex-battles-lawsuit-over-millions...

11. burkam+Zh[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:36:40
>>crhull+(OP)
> Execs are already rich. To risk jailtime, which fraud can lead to, you'd need to see something more existential than slightly increasing margins on used van sales.

This seems incredibly naive. You'd have to be willfully ignorant to think that a) rich people won't break the law to make a tiny bit more money, and b) fraud committed by large corporations often results in jail time.

I agree with you that this article isn't worth very much, but that's only because lawsuits in general shouldn't be trusted without corroborating evidence, not because a rich executive would never do this.

replies(3): >>hinkle+Nk >>ordu+WB >>ftxbro+SC
12. dghlsa+ej[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:41:55
>>crhull+(OP)
Misrepresenting an odometer reading as true is a federal offense, and it seems clear that this happened in at least one of the cases in the article. I’ve never seen a car title that doesn’t have a field for noting an in accurate odometer. Federal rules also makes the seller sign an acknowledgement that the odometer reading is true, rolled over, or unknown.

Maybe there was no conspiracy involved, and the fleet mechanics were just swapping out defective gauge clusters (somehow always swapping in a lower mileage cluster).

So the best defense they have is that this was an accident of sloppy record keeping leading to a failure to make legally required disclosures… which is not a great defense.

replies(2): >>hinkle+nm >>20afte+0u
13. MarkMa+Ij[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:43:21
>>crhull+(OP)
A few counter examples. Lol.

Asbestos in talcum powder. PFAS exposure and dumping into public water supplies. Monsanto and roundup. Cigarettes health effects. Climate change from burning hydrocarbons. Norfolk southern and the controlled burn in east palistine. I could literally go on and on about the history of execs poisoning people and the planet while knowing full well about it. All to keep the profit margin, but you know this stuff you’re just willfully ignoring it.

If you’re an ethical executive, you’re a unicorn.

replies(3): >>fkyour+up >>playin+MK >>jdm221+CL
14. hinkle+gk[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:45:09
>>crhull+(OP)
I don’t think the VW situation is at all unique, just the handling of it. I understood Deiselgate because I’ve worked for managers who just wanted checkboxes checked, and I’ve seen people who reward monetarily or with praise for solving problems but who don’t check for dead bodies before doing so. Too many coworkers who get promoted for making messes others had to clean up. What if the cleaners don’t exist in sufficient numbers? Or get laid off?

When you combine a mercenary mind with oversight from a person who doesn’t believe in “if it seems too good to be true, it probably is” that’s when the bad stuff starts to happen.

There’s also a machismo school of business that lionizes force of will. Telling employees you want something that seems impossible and expecting them to get it. Nevermind that by far the easiest way to cross an impossible finish line is to cheat your ass off.

How many products do we need class action suits on? How many exposes on child or captive labor? How many superfund sites? How many companies going bankrupt ten years later when the truth comes out, before we hold people accountable and call bullshit on the “aw shucks” response to tough questions?

Or maybe a Bachelor of Arts from a business school is not enough rigorous education to run a multinational company.

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15. hinkle+Nk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 16:46:52
>>burkam+Zh
At some point it’s like an addiction.

“No one becomes a billionaire without hurting a lot of people” is still true, though inflation will eventually make us have to change that to “multi-billionaire”.

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16. fundad+Sl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 16:49:40
>>zucked+z2
> before we all march on FedEx headquarters

It's a good thing the ownership class doesn't get away with literally everything because that would drive people to vigilante violence.

replies(1): >>tracke+iy
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17. hinkle+nm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 16:51:08
>>dghlsa+ej
I am willing to believe that if you shuffle a problem around enough you create a situation where nobody knows the truth and we’ve made it punishingly difficult to go get it.

It would be easy in a delivery business for an odometer to roll over one or even twice, and if you assign the new kid to get rid of the old trucks he might assume things.

That is not to absolve anyone. The truth can be a liability or an asset, and has to be managed not unlike inventory.

But that’s not what happened here:

> The lawsuit accuses FedEx of replacing the odometers in many of its vans with new ones that read zero miles, using the vans for a bit longer after that, and then selling them at auction with 100,000 miles or less on the new odometers.

That stretches credulity. But also, if you buy a FedEx truck or a police cruiser thinking you got a good deal on a low mileage vehicle, you’re a fucking idiot. Of course they’re going to drive them into the ground before selling them.

replies(1): >>dghlsa+it
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18. fkyour+up[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:01:57
>>MarkMa+Ij
> but you know this stuff you’re just willfully ignoring it.

That sure is what it seems like. C-level solidarity, even managed to blame the peons with just as little evidence as everyone else blaming the execs...

replies(1): >>salawa+uu
19. Alupis+ls[view] [source] 2023-06-27 17:14:30
>>crhull+(OP)
> VW emissions scandal

VW is in the business of selling vehicles, and has a real interest there to push the envelope as much as possible.

FedEx is not in the business of selling used vehicles. These vehicle sales likely don't impact their core business in the slightest - making an organization-wide scandal just silly to even think about.

Looking online, these types of "vans" sell for anywhere between $5,000 and $30,000 (with 4 digit miles)[1]. Seriously... FedEx isn't going to blink at any of this.

These class actions are always brought by bottom-feeding lawyers that use serial-plaintiffs. The reality is the class action bit will be retracted, and the lawyers, err, plaintiff will receive a "go the hell away please" payment. That's the game here...

[1] https://www.auctiontime.com/listings/trucks/auction-results/...

replies(4): >>MikeHo+OF >>CWuest+yG >>guywit+PV >>_s+il1
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20. salawa+4t[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:17:06
>>nine_z+Sd
The only thing a frustrated middle manager can do to deal with sociopathic upper management that turns a blind eye to departmental suffering is to candidly look at the bullshit you have to put up with, then make the decision on whether you've got the life left for this bullshit.

Unironically, earn the comp, and fuck off to let the next person up the totem pole deal with the consequences of their decisions.

Shit may roll downhill, but sometimes, nothing changes til the guy at the top gets a swift boot to the ass in the form of a dose of Real Life (TM).

replies(1): >>nine_z+9u
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21. dghlsa+it[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:17:52
>>hinkle+nm
Right, but my point is that the truth is actually pretty easy in this case.

There's a federal law that requires you to either swear that you know the odometer reading is accurate, that the odometer has rolled over, or that the true odometer reading is unknown. This disclosure is made on every vehicle sale, and there's a standard form.

If you can't swear to the first two, you swear to the last one.

I wouldn't assume that a low mileage fleet vehicle is necessarily beat. Maybe it was assigned to a short route (There's a FedEx route on Lopez Island in Washington, half his day is spent on the ferry), maybe it is being phased out early due to a change to electric. There's a lot of reasons FedEx might sell a low mileage vehicle, and if you have a legal document from a major corporation stating that the mileage is accurate, most people would trust that.

replies(1): >>kevinp+CV
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22. 20afte+0u[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:21:46
>>dghlsa+ej
AFAIK the odometer reading is only relevant if it's less than 100,000 miles. After that the odometer reading doesn't have to be included on the bill of sale and actual milage doesn't need to be disclosed accurately, by law. Maybe that's not the case in other states but I'm relatively sure it is in Missouri and the law is probably similar in a lot of other states if not identical. So at least in some places, this might be technically legal even if completely unethical.
replies(3): >>20afte+eu >>olyjoh+xv >>dghlsa+Tz
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23. nine_z+9u[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:22:22
>>salawa+4t
Yes, a decent middle manager doesn't have too many choices either.

It is getting clearer to everyone (from execs to ICs) that the command structure with layers and layers of management gives rise to pathological behaviors in the organization.

Perhaps this round of recession will bring some change to organization structures - ideally with less middle management.

replies(2): >>jkaplo+BI >>eastbo+FN
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24. 20afte+eu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:22:51
>>20afte+0u
BTW this is probably an outdated law from the time when vehicles odometers "rolled over" to zero after 99,999 miles.
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25. salawa+uu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:24:11
>>fkyour+up
There:s a difference between strategic "say no evil, see no evil,..." Which is rampant in C-level management, and the public having difficulty leveraging legal discovery processes against corporations with far more budget to throw at defanging or maliciously complying with such request, and there "being no evidence".

Evil exists. Stop shoving your head in the sand and realize it's an uphill fight.

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26. olyjoh+xv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:29:20
>>20afte+0u
In some states there's a cut off after so many years. In Washington, it's a very low threshold, like a few years. I've owned something like 25+ cars and I have never filled out the odometer disclosure, since I've never owned a new-ish car.
replies(1): >>dghlsa+vA
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27. single+Wv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:31:32
>>anigbr+jf
When someone files a complaint against you with a court of appropriate jurisdiction to start a lawsuit, your only sane option is to file an answer. The complaint lists their allegations point by point. The answer either admits or denies each allegation, point by point.

It is not surprising that FedEx has declined to submit evidence for scrutiny. It’s not time for that yet. They will be required to do so in discovery and they better hope they can at trial but right now we should not expect to hear anything from them other than “admit, deny, insufficient basis to form a belief and therefore deny.”

It’s just too early for an evidence based discussion. This is the nature of the civil action.

replies(1): >>anigbr+lx
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28. Alexan+dw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:32:48
>>koheri+M6
Isn't this an example of an "accusation based judgement"?

> This is taken from a complaint in a class action lawsuit. Class action lawyers are very similar to patent trolls whereby they can spin almost any story they want. And journalists go for clicks, so they amplify the sensationalism. It doesn't mean this is one of those, but a class action complaint should not just blindly be trusted.

This amounts to "class action lawyers and journalists are bad so we can ignore what they're saying".

replies(1): >>sokolo+Cx
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29. anigbr+lx[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:38:17
>>single+Wv
There's absolutely nothing preventing them asserting their version of events and following up with evidentiary filings within a reasonable timeframe. Just like there's nothing preventing corporations from admitting liability and apologizing, but they generally prefer to settle instead and never ever admit fault, thanks to the pernicious doctrine of maximizing shareholder value.
replies(2): >>sokolo+JF >>single+bw1
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30. sokolo+Cx[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:39:59
>>Alexan+dw
I don’t think you have to conclude that was shared for that reason. It could be shared simply as “this is what a plaintiff alleges, and we don’t have any data or anything further to verify that these claims are true.”
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31. tracke+iy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:43:08
>>fundad+Sl
I'd be lying if I said I'd never thought about it. Given how many dejected people there are in society, including those who have had military training, I'm surprised there hasn't been more of it at this point.
replies(1): >>jstarf+2H
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32. dghlsa+Tz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:52:32
>>20afte+0u
It’s a federal law.

The only exemption is for vehicles older than 10 years. In that case you don’t need to make a declaration, but you still can.

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33. dghlsa+vA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:55:28
>>olyjoh+xv
10 years according to federal law.
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34. ordu+WB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:02:06
>>burkam+Zh
> This seems incredibly naive.

I personally see nothing naive in the parent post. It brings arguments based on knowledge how organization works and appeals to a game theory (stakes do not match). I'm not saying the reasoning is necessarily valid, but it is not naive.

The only part of the parent comment I do not approve from a methodology standpoint is an appeal to "exception that proves the rule". Exceptions do not prove rules, they disprove them.

replies(2): >>Negiti+9N >>taeric+UX
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35. ftxbro+SC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:06:53
>>burkam+Zh
> you'd need to see something more existential than slightly increasing margins

in worlds where existence is related to health care which costs money which is related to margins, tampering with margins can be existential

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36. sokolo+JF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:20:45
>>anigbr+lx
There’s no value in presenting your evidence in the court of public opinion and intrigue. Argue your position in an actual court, where and when it matters. If a bunch of impatient people over-react to hearing only one side’s argument, so be it; you’ll exhaust yourself trying to convince them anyway and, in general, their opinion isn’t worth swaying.
replies(1): >>anigbr+KX
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37. MikeHo+OF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:20:57
>>Alupis+ls
I'm sure this isn't something at the exec level, but it seems possible someone somewhere in middle management who oversaw used van sales wanted to increase their revenue numbers and thought cheating the odometer would be an easy way to boost their numbers.
replies(2): >>Alupis+hK >>Cthulh+n51
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38. CWuest+yG[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:24:19
>>Alupis+ls
> VW is in the business of selling vehicles, and has a real interest there to push the envelope as much as possible.

As I understand it (sorry, I don't have a citation handy) was that VW was gaming the tests, but in order to make their vehicles' operations MORE efficient. That is, the tests are dumb because they concentrate on start-up emissions with less attention to warm running. VW wanted to also optimize the warm running, but to do that they had to game the software to still appear to optimize only for the cold start.

That is, aside from the ethical problem of cheating the regulation (a big aside to be sure), they were acting more responsibly than most.

replies(2): >>toast0+zK >>humani+NM
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39. jstarf+2H[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:26:23
>>tracke+iy
We had a lot more vigilante justice in the 70s. It went away with the rise of tough-on-crime laws in the 80s (vicarious punishment) and eventual counter-domestic terrorism (suppression) in the 90s. Bernie Goetz would be crucified these days.

00s just became mob rule via social mechanisms and manipulation; cliquish behavior is not something you can shoot or detonate, so we're stuck with people taking out their frustrations on children at school and anybody unsuspecting. The dejected are only going after targets they can reach (a tragic, but logical outcome).

There was one aspiring vigilante in the last few years who drove across the country to assassinate some scummy judge or something and was immediately caught while doing recon. His mistake was going after someone afforded protection. Everything is political and treated as terrorism. It's too risky to vote from the rooftops these days; there are an increasingly-infinite number of ways to fail.

40. curiou+5H[view] [source] 2023-06-27 18:26:52
>>crhull+(OP)
I think what you may be missing is the effect of compounding organizational incentives in big, old companies. I wonder - how much experience have you had in large legacy companies? (think "F100 company's subsidiary, based in Dubuque" type company)

I once helped fix up a manufacturing co that materially overstated net income by >10% for a decade. And it was just a mix of honest mistakes, miscommunications, some incompetence, and a shockingly small amount of fraud (though not 0).

I learned it's really easy for sr execs to run the company badly, one or two junior execs to push the limits, and a everyone else to just be a biiiit lazy - and bam, there's a big fraud.

That said 0 stock is up 5% w/w, so this can't be THAT big

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41. jkaplo+BI[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:34:03
>>nine_z+9u
A flatter hierarchy isn't a great solution to an excess middle management when it means that one manager has 15-20 direct reports, as opposed to a healthier target number of 6-8 or maybe 10-12 at maximum. It is important that each manager has adequate time to manage each of their people in a way that enables the kind of proper relationship that supports their team members when they need it.

The current round of recession will probably temporarily shrink some companies or cut off some lines of business, thereby flattening the hierarchy in a less harmful way than what I described. But overworking managers is a different bad thing.

Maybe you're advocating for a smaller maximum company size overall, so that a relatively flat hierarchy doesn't overwhelm those managers who do remain? Or for some right of participation by non-executive managers in collective worker action, as exists in Germany and as acted in the original version of the US National Labor Relations Act before the Taft-Hartley amendments, so that some kinds of large-company pathologies can be addressed better?

replies(1): >>nine_z+Ja1
42. sashan+eK[view] [source] 2023-06-27 18:41:01
>>crhull+(OP)
Very well said. Let’s bring a few salient points:

All of us here work at jobs, possibly in very large corporates. Do we see anything illegal going on? I would reckon that >90% of us have gone through our corporate life without ever being a part of anything close to even illegal, at worst we forward something to legal to be extra sure. So if we think corporations are regularly behaving illegally, we all have simultaneously seemed to have lucked out to be in the one the one ethical and legally compliant organization.

If some part of your worldview is that the world is being filled with greedy, selfish and unethical people, constantly trying to screw over others but you are the exception most likely your worldview is completely off (Most people view themselves as the good guy/ hero of their world). In my experience it is very unlikely for anyone in C Suite to ever risk any actual fraud in their dealings (or anyone in the organization really), however lawyers are essentially parasites on society who feed on productive work to make a living while gaslighting rest of society into believing that they’re playing an important role in protecting it.

replies(1): >>ncalla+4Z
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43. Alupis+hK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:41:10
>>MikeHo+OF
It's not even clear if FedEx has anything to do with this. The other named defendant is "Holman Fleet Leasing", which seems to imply these vehicles were leased to FedEx.

If that's the case, then any possible scandal here would be squarely on the company selling the vehicles - not FedEx.

FedEx might just be a tacked-on name. You see that quite often with Prop 65 cases. The plaintiff attorneys add anyone even remotely related to the case, just to drive up pressure and chaos, hoping for quicker/larger settlement offers.

In this situation, even if FedEx has nothing to do with vehicles sales, they might opt to settle and write a check just to make the bad publicity go away. If you think that sounds like a shakedown, you'd be right.

replies(3): >>fatfin+vR >>joshAg+Fq1 >>KennyB+pZ1
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44. toast0+zK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:42:22
>>CWuest+yG
> VW was gaming the tests, but in order to make their vehicles' operations MORE efficient.

VW's cheating is in essence the cars have two modes to run the engine; compliance mode and performance mode, and they run in compliance mode when the car starts up until the steering wheel is turned (more or less).

In compliance mode, the engine control follows the rules to meet the emissions test standards. In performance mode, operating temperature is allowed to increase, which increases performance, increases fuel efficiency, idles better, etc, but increased operating temperature leads to more NOx emissions.

Additional, for models with diesel emissions fluid, performance mode injected much less DEF than compliance mode; DEF reduces operating temperature as well as directly reacting withe NOx. This reduced use of DEF allowed a smaller DEF tank to be used; regulations require passenger car DEF tanks to have enough capacity for normal use within the regular service interval; if the vehicle was operating in compliance mode the whole time, you'd need to fill the DEF tank between oil changes (or have a larger tank, which needs to fit somewhere).

In the end, the big tradeoff is fuel efficiency (and therefore CO2 emissions) vs NOx emissions; which is a fine tradeoff to consider, but you can't give drivers what they want and regulators what they want without cheating.

replies(1): >>Wirele+QO
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45. playin+MK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:43:43
>>MarkMa+Ij
I agree with your first paragraph. The last sentence is a stretch though. The fact that there were multiple execs who were blatantly unethical doesn't mean most execs are unethical.
replies(1): >>MarkMa+5M
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46. jdm221+CL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:46:52
>>MarkMa+Ij
There's a difference between "the executives are bad people doing a bad thing that is _maybe_ tortious" and "the executives are committing a crime".

OP was claiming the latter is rare. You're saying the former is common. They're not the same thing though.

replies(1): >>MarkMa+TO
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47. MarkMa+5M[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:49:06
>>playin+MK
Would it be better if I listed every instance of executives choosing to poison people, willfully put them in dangerous working conditions to save some money against the law, releasing products they knew would maim people or kill people… all for marginal increases in share price? It’s a long freaking list.

This is the way this system is setup. Executives pursue profit at the expense of everything else. This is the cornerstone of capitalism.

replies(1): >>cj+Ho1
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48. humani+NM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:52:47
>>CWuest+yG
> As I understand it (sorry, I don't have a citation handy)

This is so irresponsible of you to just assert without evidence, and is so out of context to portray VW as the good guys here. They did not break the rules and flaunt regulations to make their system more efficient. They did so to cover up their failure to deliver on a new generation of "clean diesel" tech. VW thought they could do it, they invested billions in it, and they couldn't figure out how to do it without emitting way too many other pollutants. So they built their cars to lie to regulators.

The tests cover an extensive range of use cases, mostly warm running. There were two modes, one that was more fuel efficient but emitted NOx above regulations, and one that was less fuel efficient but was within NOx regulations. They detected when the tires were on suspension that simulates real-world driving for testing. They got caught by academics who wanted to test real-world vs simulated suspension.

Here is actual source, Bloomberg, which isn't some kind of environmentalist or anti-business publication: (https://web.archive.org/web/20160312181801/https://www.bloom...):

"The road tests captured a variety of conditions: high elevations up Mt. Baldy; stop-and-go urban errand-running in San Diego; freeway driving around Los Angeles. The two Volkswagens’ emissions exceeded standards by 5 to 35 times. The BMW’s didn’t. [...] The Lean NOx Trap is a system of concessions. To get cleaner exhaust, you’d need to use a squirt of fuel every few seconds to burn up nitrogen oxide. Or, in the other direction, to get better fuel efficiency, you’d need to spew out dirtier exhaust. Managing this trade-off requires a complex calibration of the onboard computer, the engine control unit, so it can adjust constantly to variables like temperature and speed and optimize both emissions and fuel usage. The trouble was, Volkswagen hadn’t been able to get its new engines to comply with the stringent U.S. standards."

The reason is they had invested in a "clean diesel" engine tech that was supposed to be their market differentiator. VW invested billions into it. Yes, it was more fuel efficient, but it was supposed to also stay within existing pollution emissions regulations. Nobody else made such big investments in clean diesel because they couldn't figure out how to make it more efficient without also emitting pollutants at much higher levels. But everybody was so bought into it that they felt they had to cover it up.

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49. Negiti+9N[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:54:53
>>ordu+WB
“No parking on Sundays” is an exception that proves the rule. The implied rule is that parking is allowed on Monday through Saturday.

I almost never see this phrase used correctly however.

replies(1): >>burkam+GQ
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50. eastbo+FN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:57:53
>>nine_z+9u
Fast growing startups have little middle management. Bloated pathologic orgs dying in a recession have a lot of management. To have fewer management, we need to only have young companies and let older ones collapse sooner.
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51. Wirele+QO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:03:03
>>toast0+zK
In Europe there was a shift around 2010 from CO2 to NOx.

Before the shift there was an influx of tiny cars with tiny diesel engines which had emissions <= 99grams CO2 / km.

Now it's NOx all around. In fact, The Netherlands has limited daytime speeds on highways to 100km/h vs 120/130km/h just for this purpose.

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52. MarkMa+TO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:03:14
>>jdm221+CL
Just because it isn’t prosecuted in our system doesn’t mean that the execs choosing to poison people isn’t a crime.

Maybe I have a naive view of the law, but when you read a report that says your chemicals are poisoning people, and you choose to dump it in public waterways, you’re guilty of a crime personally.

replies(1): >>jdm221+l01
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53. burkam+GQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:13:53
>>Negiti+9N
I don't think there's a single "correct" way to use that phrase, different people understand it differently. The meaning I'm most familiar with is an obscure exception demonstrating that your rule of thumb is usually reliable. For example:

"Street parking is always allowed"

"Not always! Three years ago there was a marathon that went through this street and you weren't allowed to park here that morning."

This exception is so specific and obscure that it "proves" (in a casual conversational sense) that "you can always park here" is a good rule. Not all exceptions prove the rule: if the exception is "except on weekends and holidays and overnight", that's so significant and obvious that it actually disproves the rule.

replies(1): >>rhino3+If1
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54. fatfin+vR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:18:58
>>Alupis+hK
In a civil case this is the right thing to do. Chances are good that a company as large as FedEx very closely met with leasing providers and discussed how they were going to get those costs down, better than if FedEx didn't lease. The lawyers would be silly not to fish for signs that FedEx knew a bit about why it could get the leasing rates it wanted.
replies(1): >>Alupis+fU
55. johndh+hT[view] [source] 2023-06-27 19:29:05
>>crhull+(OP)
Helpful perspective. As a lawyer who has worked on both sides of class actions, I generally classify these cases in four categories:

-Legit cases that describe (or at least ultimately lead to finding) clear and meaningful wrongdoing. There's always some room for arguing one way or the other but ultimately there's some clarity that something meaningfully wrong happened. I think these are probably ~3-5 percent of cases filed. These cases tend to settle relatively early for high dollar figures.

-Cases of clear but unimportant wrongdoing. Technically a statute was violated, but no one was really hurt at all. These tend to settle for small $ figures. Perhaps 20% of cases.

-Important but unclear wrongdoing (evidence supports either finding; among one million documents, some look really bad, while others look very exculpatory). These stick around for a long time and ultimately earn lawyers a lot but cost the parties, on average, a lot of money to litigate. Perhaps 30% of cases.

-Complete/fabricated nonsense and/or fishing expeditions. Cost defendants a fair amount (and brutal for small defendants), but not the end of the world for big defendants. Perhaps 50% of cases.

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56. Alupis+fU[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:35:38
>>fatfin+vR
I have no doubt the leasing company would factor in re-sale value of the vehicles... that's how all vehicle leases work.

I do doubt FedEx would be in any way involved in the details of selling leased vehicles. I can say with a high degree of confidence there never was a meeting with FedEx execs where they pitched the idea of increasing residuals by swapping odometers...

replies(1): >>fatfin+Uh1
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57. kevinp+CV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:42:59
>>dghlsa+it
This is incorrect. It's easy to find the actual statement required: https://eforms.com/images/2017/06/Federal-Odometer-Disclosur...

> I, ______________________ (SELLER’S NAME, PRINT) state that the odometer now reads ______________________ miles (NO TENTHS) and to the best of my knowledge that it reflects the actual mileage of the vehicle described below, unless one of the following statements is checked.

The seller is only strongly asserting what the odometer reads. If the seller doesn't know anything about that vehicle, then "to the best of [their] knowledge", that reflects the actual mileage.

Also to clarify, none of this is sworn, or "under penalty of perjury"

replies(2): >>hinkle+mo1 >>dghlsa+fA3
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58. guywit+PV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:44:00
>>Alupis+ls
Although I know this might get met with pushback, I think it's reasonable to argue some of the regulations pushing back against VW were only there because domestic manufacturers didn't want to have to compete. You could argue the emissions scandal wasn't just about money, it had a government corruption component to it as well.
replies(2): >>adolph+wi1 >>rainbo+y22
59. freeja+3X[view] [source] 2023-06-27 19:50:54
>>crhull+(OP)
>1) This is taken from a complaint in a class action lawsuit. Class action lawyers are very similar to patent trolls whereby they can spin almost any story they want. And journalists go for clicks, so they amplify the sensationalism. It doesn't mean this is one of those, but a class action complaint should not just blindly be trusted.

Do you think the rules that apply to patent litigators and class action litigators are different than the rules that apply to other litigators? I really don't understand what you seem to think is going on here, it's a bit naive imo (all the lawyers that I don't like are the bad ones and they lie!)

and I didn't even make it to your next part of your post, where you think that business executives are the honest ones! They aren't. They don't have their own personal license and livelihoods at risk most of the time, unlike attorneys.

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60. anigbr+KX[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:54:08
>>sokolo+JF
Of course there is, perception matters or companies wouldn't have PR departments. They shove their brands in the public's face 24/7 with messages about how great they are but when they look bad they put on an air of injured dignity and cite platitudes about the legal system. The reality is that corporations usually just hope to exhaust plaintiffs in the legal system instead.

I went to law school and am married to someone who works in litigation at a top 10 law firm, I understand very well how the legal process works both technically and in economic/strategic terms.

replies(1): >>sokolo+h11
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61. taeric+UX[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:54:33
>>ordu+WB
If it helps, you can rephrase it to "the exceptional nature of these examples proves the general rule that it is not the case."

This is, as I recall, literally the origin of the term?

replies(1): >>saalwe+Gn1
62. WheatM+qY[view] [source] 2023-06-27 19:57:08
>>crhull+(OP)
Fantastic comment and insight, thank you.
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63. ncalla+4Z[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:59:41
>>sashan+eK
> All of us here work at jobs, possibly in very large corporates. Do we see anything illegal going on? I would reckon that >90% of us have gone through our corporate life without ever being a part of anything close to even illegal, at worst we forward something to legal to be extra sure. So if we think corporations are regularly behaving illegally, we all have simultaneously seemed to have lucked out to be in the one the one ethical and legally compliant organization.

This line of argument only works if the majority of a company is exposed to illegal behavior.

If a large company can commit (or attempt to commit) illegal behavior, while making that behavior only visible to a small fraction of people, then this argument falls apart.

For example, how many people were involved and aware of the VW emissions scandal? 200? 400? Out if 200,000 worldwide employees. So >99% of VW employees would have likely reported not having observed illegal behavior. That does not mean that those employees “lucked out” into working for an ethical legally-compliant company. It means the company is smart enough to hide its unethical and disreputable behavior from its employees as much as possible.

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64. jdm221+l01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 20:06:30
>>MarkMa+TO
You're confusing the concepts of "immoral" and "illegal".
replies(1): >>MarkMa+a91
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65. sokolo+h11[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 20:11:28
>>anigbr+KX
Would companies prefer to have their PR departments talking about positive things the company is doing or refreshing and giving voice to an accusation of odometer rollbacks? I read nothing into FedEx’s silence on the topic, other than they are being run by adults taking competent advice.
replies(1): >>ImPost+OW1
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66. Cthulh+n51[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 20:36:01
>>MikeHo+OF
Well yeah there's that, but it can't have been just one person; there's at least dozens of people involved in the trading and maintenance of these things, there's paper trails for the purchase and I presume installing and replacing of the odometers; there's bound to be loads of people that are in the know, and since the true odometer reading can be read from the onboard computer, I find it really hard to believe that nobody caught this before.

It would've taken just one case of a mismatch between the digital and physical odometer without it being mentioned for a huge stink to be thrown up. And it'd also be the auction house's name on the block, because they should check these things themselves. If this is as widespread as they claim it to be, then even the occasional spot checks would show it.

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67. MarkMa+a91[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 20:56:52
>>jdm221+l01
Poisoning people is a crime.
replies(1): >>jdm221+qy1
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68. nine_z+Ja1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 21:03:09
>>jkaplo+BI
The main reason why flatter hierarchies doesn't work is because managers are asked to do work reporting, career management and performance management. But all of these are pathological, BS work.

Reporting can literally be done by an "administrative assistant". You could have an administrative assistant for 50 ICs and it won't make a difference. There is no need for layers.

Career management only exists because there are so many layers in the ladder. If there were only 2 levels, and then VP, there would be no need for career management. There is no need for layers for the actual work to get done.

Performance management is another load of crap because it is something that should only be required for determination of rewards or to completely fire people. But this job doesn't need layers and layers of management.

If you want to see the structure top down, the CEO should have VPs who allocate money to teams. The teams should have pieces of ownership that they are supposed to run and maintain. A team lead/captain can run the team.

But that's it. What is the need for kingdoms of apes that don't really do much except pushing work downwards?

replies(1): >>jkaplo+y72
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69. rhino3+If1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 21:30:33
>>burkam+GQ
The person you are replying to used it in the classic sense.

It was commonly mis-used to mean “eh that just a minor exception that you should ignore.” But it’s been mis-used so much that now it has both meaning.

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70. fatfin+Uh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 21:42:58
>>Alupis+fU
That's not really necessary. It sounds unlikely to me that there wouldn't be a paper trail with someone in FedEx's procurement about such a project, particularly if this really included FedEx racking the miles on the new odometer.

A project to cut an ongoing vendors costs is about the only way for a large cap procurement specialist to meet and exceed targets with no possibility of additional valid free market bids. That opens them right up to questions of liability, with managers knowing or avoiding knowledge, workarounds, special advice to other divisions, etc.

You don't have to go to jail to lose a lawsuit.. I worked for a company that put together a whole system for reporting these kinds of ethics irregularities in the companies favor. I don't think that was a charity, they act as a defense or at least lower punitive damages a judge is likely to award when violations still occur.

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71. adolph+wi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 21:46:44
>>guywit+PV
It may have been somewhat more easy to regulate nitrogen oxide emissions in the US, but it isn't primarily a protectionist move and VW was also cheating in the EU.

Underlying U.S. and EU emission standards

The Volkswagen and Audi cars identified as violators had been certified to meet either the US EPA Tier 2 / Bin 5 emissions standard or the California LEV-II ULEV standard. Either standard requires that nitrogen oxide emissions not exceed 0.043 grams per kilometre (0.07 g/mi) for engines at full useful life which is defined as either 190,000 kilometres (120,000 mi) or 240,000 kilometres (150,000 mi) depending on the vehicle and optional certification choices.

This standard for nitrogen oxide emissions is among the most stringent in the world. For comparison, the contemporary European standards known as Euro 5 (2008 "EU5 compliant", 2009[5]–2014 models) and Euro 6 (2015 models) only limit nitrogen oxide emissions to 0.18 grams per kilometre (0.29 g/mi) and 0.08 grams per kilometre (0.13 g/mi) respectively. Defeat devices are forbidden in the EU. The use of a defeat device is subject to a penalty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

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72. _s+il1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 22:02:29
>>Alupis+ls
For a company that has its own relatively large fleet of aircraft ... $5,000-$30,000 is a few screws and some grease on an airframe.

While the some book keepers will care, in its grand scheme of operations that amount is negligible to the point where it may cost them more in man power than what they recoup from doing so.

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73. saalwe+Gn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 22:15:53
>>taeric+UX
I thought it was more along the lines of prove = test; the exceptions clarify the rule. Or in AI training terms, you need negative test cases as well as positive test cases to adequately define a rule.

Thou shalt not kill, except all the times thou shalt.

replies(1): >>taeric+8p1
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74. hinkle+mo1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 22:19:28
>>kevinp+CV
Places like CarFax collect data from maintenance done on the vehicle. In which case you may be able to detect mileage rollback because the number goes negative between two visits.

But a private vehicle fleet may use private mechanics, who probably do not report information like that (there's no financial incentive to do so, and there's probably no mechanism to make it easy).

I might be able to tell that this Dodge Dart has had the frame straightened twice and the engine doesn't match the VIN number. But a private fleet vehicle is probably a black box.

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75. cj+Ho1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 22:21:06
>>MarkMa+5M
This is like listing a few well known black hat hackers and using that to conclude that all engineers are therefore hackers.

There are tens of thousands of companies in the US. The vast majority of them aren’t run by horrible people.

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76. taeric+8p1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 22:23:57
>>saalwe+Gn1
Words being what they are, and us not speaking the language that created this saying, I'm guessing both general ideas can be true. :D

My memory is this came from Cicero and was about a place excluding women by rule, as they pointed to the exception of a woman that was allowed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule seems to support both interpretations, and at least shows I got the speaker right. Not seeing that my specifics are good, though. I would not be shocked to know that I am wrong there.

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77. joshAg+Fq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 22:33:54
>>Alupis+hK
There's actually a legal reason for tacking on anyone who is plausibly liable. The basic idea is to sue everyone in a single case and let the court sort out actual liability for each party as part of that single case.

Say the lawsuit is originally against just Holman Fleet Leasing and FedEx is the one legally liable (Maybe FedEx is the one that is doing something naughty. Maybe there's some contractual language around Fedex assuming all legal liabilities for the vehicles sold.). You're going to spend a bunch of time in court arguing with Holman about if they're even the right party to sue, and your case is either going to get thrown out or you're going to lose. Meanwhile, the statute of limitations is still ticking, so if it takes a long enough time to adjudicate the case against Holman, you won't even be able to refile the same case with the correct respondent. Oops. but if the statute of limitations miraculously hasn't run out yet, that's not even considering the possibility that the kind of person who would roll back an odometer would also have a punishingly short document retention policy, so all the documents that still existed at the time you filed against Holman have long since been shredded and destroyed, so your discovery in the new case against Fedex is going to be a single email saying "yeah, we don't have anything going back that far. Oops again.

Now consider the lawsuit filed initially against both Holman and Fedex. Assuming your list of respondents is complete, the case isn't going to get thrown out because you sued the wrong person. Liability will still be adjudicated (and the case amended to drop respondents as the proper liability holder gets determined), but now you don't need to worry about the statute of limitations running out as you wait for the determination of liability against the first respondent. And the document retention clock starts with that lawsuit and covers the time where you're just determining who hold liability, so now they can't delete those documents even if they other wise would be. Both of them are now going to be legally required to retain all the stuff you list in discovery for the duration of at least their involvement in the case. Sure, they could destroy those records anyway, but that sort of thing is regularly used to infer guilt of the respondent with the worst possible inferences when it's destroyed in violation of discovery.

replies(1): >>Alupis+LJ1
78. NoMore+0t1[view] [source] 2023-06-27 22:47:23
>>crhull+(OP)
> There is a strong theme of "of course execs lie cheat steal at every turn" and I also think this narrative should be questioned.

This narrative is "middle-middle management lies, cheats, and steals at every turn and sometimes on other people's turns too".

And while we might question that narrative about execs, we know that it is unfailingly true of middle management. It's not unexpected, that's what happens when perverse incentive is piled on top of perverse incentive. Someone was racing for a bonus. And discovery's going to show that there was some absurd uptick in how many OEM odometers for this model were ordered in the problem years, far in excess of anything that had happened previously.

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79. single+bw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 23:07:54
>>anigbr+lx
Generally I agree with you but there’s also not anything stopping you from writing me a check for fifty grand. Nothing incentivizes them to disclose anything. I’m not too crazy about the state of affairs either.
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80. jdm221+qy1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 23:24:06
>>MarkMa+a91
If you say so, dude.
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81. Alupis+LJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 00:43:57
>>joshAg+Fq1
These things never see the inside of a court room. It'll end up as a settlement check, with none of the involved parties admitting to anything. The lawyers will then move onto the next low hanging fruit.

I've learned over time, it doesn't matter how righteous your defense is - all that matters is the money it'll cost to make the issue go away. Turns out, it's almost always cheaper to write a check than defend yourself.

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82. ImPost+OW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 02:37:55
>>sokolo+h11
competent advice to minimize liability and downplay unflattering news, or competent advice to behave morally and righteously in the eyes of the public?

seems the former, so you can see why the public is unimpressed

83. scrubs+VY1[view] [source] 2023-06-28 03:00:14
>>crhull+(OP)
"To risk jailtime..."

Corporate America unfortunately does not worry about jail time. Instead fines are primarily paid from shareholder cash.

I wish jailtime was an impediment. It's not

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84. KennyB+pZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 03:06:19
>>Alupis+hK
> It's not even clear if FedEx has anything to do with this.

A company the size of FedEx has accountants and actuaries watching leases of this scale like hawks. It's simply not believable that Fedex never "noticed." And if they noticed they were getting much better than normal resale values but didn't ask why, that's very much the definition of complicity.

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85. rainbo+y22[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 03:38:09
>>guywit+PV
This is a pretty great presentation on dieselgate and how it worked.

https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions

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86. jkaplo+y72[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 04:25:25
>>nine_z+Ja1
I see you’ve only had bad managers in your career. I’ve had both. The bad ones sometimes wrecked companies when they were in the C-suite and wrecked individual careers or teams when they were directly running a team. The good ones turned careers around (including my own when I was an immature oblivious junior) and helped get org-wide buy-in for a necessary re-org to fix real problems that ordinary technical employees noticed.

Shoveling around money and work is only a small piece of the job.

A good line manager does things like help resolve interpersonal and inter-team issues, helps address the issues causing underperforming team members to underperform so that they can improve instead of be fired, handles firings and layoffs when necessary but only as a last resort, makes sure team member career goals and skills get considered as opportunities arise, shares concerns and updates both up and down the chain, advocates upwards for necessary staffing and worthwhile raises, oversees hiring for the team in collaboration with the recruiter and tech lead, explains downward for applicable constraints and works with the tech lead how to apply them to the tasks at hand, and so on.

These have all been my goals in my line manager jobs. Notice I said nothing about technical matters or project management or driving execution. That’s tech lead stuff, with some oversight from the manager to make sure business needs are met.

People need management just like computers systems do, but the skill set is totally separate. Computers always do what they’re told, even if software bugs sometimes mean you didn’t tell them you think you told them. People have feelings and needs. Very different.

For a team of more than a few members, management is a full-time nontechnical job. For a 2-4 member team, yeah it can be split.

A good middle manager does the same kind of thing as I said a good line manager does, but managing managers and their teams/orgs instead of individuals.

A bad middle manager does what you think a manager does, and/or several other failure modes.

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87. dghlsa+fA3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 15:28:26
>>kevinp+CV
I don’t think I misrepresented that. You have to include the “following statements” that the form mentions, which are exactly what I caveated.

If you are a representative of a company that has written records indicating that an odometer was replaced (there is no possible way that fedex doesn’t keep maintenance records), I would argue that “the best of your knowledge” means accessing all those records and ascertaining that the odometer reading is true.

It’s not penalty of perjury, it’s penalty of federal law. Lying there is breaking a federal law specifically written to prevent this sort of odometer fraud.

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