zlacker

[parent] [thread] 10 comments
1. dghlsa+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:41:55
Misrepresenting an odometer reading as true is a federal offense, and it seems clear that this happened in at least one of the cases in the article. I’ve never seen a car title that doesn’t have a field for noting an in accurate odometer. Federal rules also makes the seller sign an acknowledgement that the odometer reading is true, rolled over, or unknown.

Maybe there was no conspiracy involved, and the fleet mechanics were just swapping out defective gauge clusters (somehow always swapping in a lower mileage cluster).

So the best defense they have is that this was an accident of sloppy record keeping leading to a failure to make legally required disclosures… which is not a great defense.

replies(2): >>hinkle+93 >>20afte+Ma
2. hinkle+93[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:51:08
>>dghlsa+(OP)
I am willing to believe that if you shuffle a problem around enough you create a situation where nobody knows the truth and we’ve made it punishingly difficult to go get it.

It would be easy in a delivery business for an odometer to roll over one or even twice, and if you assign the new kid to get rid of the old trucks he might assume things.

That is not to absolve anyone. The truth can be a liability or an asset, and has to be managed not unlike inventory.

But that’s not what happened here:

> The lawsuit accuses FedEx of replacing the odometers in many of its vans with new ones that read zero miles, using the vans for a bit longer after that, and then selling them at auction with 100,000 miles or less on the new odometers.

That stretches credulity. But also, if you buy a FedEx truck or a police cruiser thinking you got a good deal on a low mileage vehicle, you’re a fucking idiot. Of course they’re going to drive them into the ground before selling them.

replies(1): >>dghlsa+4a
◧◩
3. dghlsa+4a[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:17:52
>>hinkle+93
Right, but my point is that the truth is actually pretty easy in this case.

There's a federal law that requires you to either swear that you know the odometer reading is accurate, that the odometer has rolled over, or that the true odometer reading is unknown. This disclosure is made on every vehicle sale, and there's a standard form.

If you can't swear to the first two, you swear to the last one.

I wouldn't assume that a low mileage fleet vehicle is necessarily beat. Maybe it was assigned to a short route (There's a FedEx route on Lopez Island in Washington, half his day is spent on the ferry), maybe it is being phased out early due to a change to electric. There's a lot of reasons FedEx might sell a low mileage vehicle, and if you have a legal document from a major corporation stating that the mileage is accurate, most people would trust that.

replies(1): >>kevinp+oC
4. 20afte+Ma[view] [source] 2023-06-27 17:21:46
>>dghlsa+(OP)
AFAIK the odometer reading is only relevant if it's less than 100,000 miles. After that the odometer reading doesn't have to be included on the bill of sale and actual milage doesn't need to be disclosed accurately, by law. Maybe that's not the case in other states but I'm relatively sure it is in Missouri and the law is probably similar in a lot of other states if not identical. So at least in some places, this might be technically legal even if completely unethical.
replies(3): >>20afte+0b >>olyjoh+jc >>dghlsa+Fg
◧◩
5. 20afte+0b[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:22:51
>>20afte+Ma
BTW this is probably an outdated law from the time when vehicles odometers "rolled over" to zero after 99,999 miles.
◧◩
6. olyjoh+jc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:29:20
>>20afte+Ma
In some states there's a cut off after so many years. In Washington, it's a very low threshold, like a few years. I've owned something like 25+ cars and I have never filled out the odometer disclosure, since I've never owned a new-ish car.
replies(1): >>dghlsa+hh
◧◩
7. dghlsa+Fg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:52:32
>>20afte+Ma
It’s a federal law.

The only exemption is for vehicles older than 10 years. In that case you don’t need to make a declaration, but you still can.

◧◩◪
8. dghlsa+hh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:55:28
>>olyjoh+jc
10 years according to federal law.
◧◩◪
9. kevinp+oC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:42:59
>>dghlsa+4a
This is incorrect. It's easy to find the actual statement required: https://eforms.com/images/2017/06/Federal-Odometer-Disclosur...

> I, ______________________ (SELLER’S NAME, PRINT) state that the odometer now reads ______________________ miles (NO TENTHS) and to the best of my knowledge that it reflects the actual mileage of the vehicle described below, unless one of the following statements is checked.

The seller is only strongly asserting what the odometer reads. If the seller doesn't know anything about that vehicle, then "to the best of [their] knowledge", that reflects the actual mileage.

Also to clarify, none of this is sworn, or "under penalty of perjury"

replies(2): >>hinkle+851 >>dghlsa+1h3
◧◩◪◨
10. hinkle+851[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 22:19:28
>>kevinp+oC
Places like CarFax collect data from maintenance done on the vehicle. In which case you may be able to detect mileage rollback because the number goes negative between two visits.

But a private vehicle fleet may use private mechanics, who probably do not report information like that (there's no financial incentive to do so, and there's probably no mechanism to make it easy).

I might be able to tell that this Dodge Dart has had the frame straightened twice and the engine doesn't match the VIN number. But a private fleet vehicle is probably a black box.

◧◩◪◨
11. dghlsa+1h3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 15:28:26
>>kevinp+oC
I don’t think I misrepresented that. You have to include the “following statements” that the form mentions, which are exactly what I caveated.

If you are a representative of a company that has written records indicating that an odometer was replaced (there is no possible way that fedex doesn’t keep maintenance records), I would argue that “the best of your knowledge” means accessing all those records and ascertaining that the odometer reading is true.

It’s not penalty of perjury, it’s penalty of federal law. Lying there is breaking a federal law specifically written to prevent this sort of odometer fraud.

[go to top]