zlacker

[parent] [thread] 35 comments
1. slibhb+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-06-25 19:55:47
We've come a long way since Vera Lynn.

Whether it's for the military or not, I find these women's behavior gross and their followers pathetic. It feels like we're veering into post-feminist territory where attractive, charismatic women can market themselves on the internet and society can't offer a reasonable objection without resorting to social conservatism.

replies(4): >>NoZebr+D1 >>raluse+43 >>predic+Xq >>throwa+RD
2. NoZebr+D1[view] [source] 2023-06-25 20:06:00
>>slibhb+(OP)
Ironically, the widespread use of contraception and abortion means that women are much more likely to be used and abused, treated as objects, and discarded as disposable, rather than loved, respected, and cherished by men who are attracted to them.

They've claimed that this is their choice, that this is empowering, that the alternative was slavery and oppression, but I'm not sure how many sincerely believe those slogans.

This was all foreseen and predicted. The world was warned, but the world pressed on blindly.

replies(5): >>cbg0+A3 >>Larrik+79 >>mock-p+261 >>HeyLau+tG2 >>softso+AJ4
3. raluse+43[view] [source] 2023-06-25 20:16:57
>>slibhb+(OP)
IMO the only serious problem with social conservatism is when it's legislated. Accordingly, feminism was at its best when it was about liberation. Touting sex positivity vs touting traditional gender roles are on equal moral ground, and it seems to me as though you're looking to make a case against unmitigated sex positivity, while feeling as though this means you're necessarily looking to roll back liberation efforts. So long as the case is about "oughts" rather than "musts," I don't see the problem with you making whatever case you want.
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4. cbg0+A3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 20:20:40
>>NoZebr+D1
You forgot to add a bunch of [citation needed]
replies(1): >>NoZebr+V7
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5. NoZebr+V7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 20:50:09
>>cbg0+A3
> You forgot to add a bunch of [citation needed]

Well if you're the one who needs citations, no problem.

https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docume...

Casti connubii, Pope Pius XI, 12/31/1930: released to coincide with the Anglican Lambeth Conference. Paragraphs 45-48, 51, 63-67, 71, 75, 106.

https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/docume...

Humanae vitae, Pope Saint Paul VI, 7/25/1968: released in response to the hormonal contraceptive pill (not to mention the "sexual revolution" while the Vietnam War raged on). HV is remarkably short, and I recommend reading it in full if you have a few minutes. But you want citations: Paragraphs 3, 7, 10, 13, 14, 16, and finally, the predictions and anticipation are laid bare in paragraph 17.

"Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection."

replies(3): >>CyberD+6r >>predic+br >>cbg0+f41
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6. Larrik+79[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 20:58:39
>>NoZebr+D1
So you believe women would be better off without access to abortions and contraceptives because men have to be shitty to women if the women choose to have sex? Not every guy feels the need to shame a woman for having a sex drive.

Why would a woman, forced into viewing sex as inherently risky, want to get married to a guy with those views? Wouldn't it be better to be dumped after a few dates instead of being married to someone who doesn't respect you.

In this world are married couple, also forced to only have sex for procreation or have their family size explode to levels where they can't afford their children. Why would men or women want that? Kids survive childhood far more often and most people don't need a bunch of free labor for the fields anymore.

This is also completely ignoring the huge health issues we are seeing now in states banning abortions, with women being forced to bring dead fetuses to term, doctors afraid of running afoul of the law to save a woman's life when there is an issue with the pregnancy, and raped children and women being forced to flee their state or have their rapist's baby.

It's a pretty sick future if we eventually encourage these mass shooters to rape someone on their way to the crime because they know their lineage will live on.

replies(1): >>NoZebr+W9
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7. NoZebr+W9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 21:04:53
>>Larrik+79
> forced into viewing sex as inherently risky

I don't understand what you mean by "forced" and "inherently risky". What risks are you talking about? Sex isn't ever "inherently risky" and I don't know anyone who would reason like that if they just thought about it for a few moments. There are circumstances and behaviors which may increase risk of certain outcomes when having sex. There is nothing "inherent" about these elements. You don't make any sense.

Sex is inherently exciting, enjoyable, holy, and very good. Sex is designed that way so that humans and other creatures will engage in it often. Christians understand this, and we promote that view.

Your comments draw a bleak landscape of discord and strife over sex, and nobody wants that. We want a Culture of Life, where human dignity is respected and upheld at every stage of life, for every person, equally.

replies(2): >>Larrik+ob >>kowbel+rw
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8. Larrik+ob[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 21:15:19
>>NoZebr+W9
If you were responding in good faith you would respond to my full post, instead of part of a single sentence, where many of the risk without abortion and contraceptive access are listed.

Edit: It's also poor form to stealthily edit your comment after someone has already replied to it and you've been down voted for it.

replies(1): >>NoZebr+kd
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9. NoZebr+kd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 21:30:41
>>Larrik+ob
Well you're not posting in good faith; it's evident from your using emotive false equivalencies like "forced" and "inherently risky". If you weren't starting from false premises then we may have a chance at honest debate.
10. predic+Xq[view] [source] 2023-06-25 23:13:37
>>slibhb+(OP)
Hi. I'm a feminist and I support women doing whatever they want of their own autonomous will. Including marketing dumb horny men that can't seem to keep their porn addiction out of every corner of their life.
replies(1): >>rngnam+n62
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11. CyberD+6r[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 23:14:57
>>NoZebr+V7
I think you are confusing science and statistics with made up 55 year old nonsense written by people living lives completely without women but pretending to have something worthwhile to say.
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12. predic+br[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 23:15:20
>>NoZebr+V7
Do you actually expect anyone, anywhere to believe that men would start treating women better if the pill went away? Good lord almighty.
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13. kowbel+rw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 23:58:18
>>NoZebr+W9
> What risks are you talking about? Sex isn't ever "inherently risky"

Sex is very often inherently risky. Before protection became commonplace it was almost always inherently risky.

You seemed to be disappointed in the “widespread use of contraception” in your original post - without contraception there’s even more risk.

14. throwa+RD[view] [source] 2023-06-26 01:06:04
>>slibhb+(OP)
I agree with you, but I'm surprised that you then go on to write off conservatism seemingly flippantly.

There is no reason to believe that social norms can only change for the better, and in fact a lot of evidence that they aren't moving in a positive direction.

The US right may be overreacting to this by rolling back too many changes and throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

But that doesn't mean that conservatism in general is a bad idea. There is certainly something to be said for assessing the outcomes of a change before running many experiments in parallel without a control group.

replies(5): >>kelips+VX >>somedu+AG1 >>slibhb+lZ1 >>nradov+Rz2 >>namari+7S4
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15. kelips+VX[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 04:15:29
>>throwa+RD
People here talk a whole lot about Chesterton's Fence when it comes to engineering topics and promptly forget it all when switching over to sociopolitical topics.
replies(1): >>WHYLEE+cL1
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16. cbg0+f41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 05:35:38
>>NoZebr+V7
I was looking for some actual science, not fiction.
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17. mock-p+261[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 05:55:17
>>NoZebr+D1
I’m having difficulty believing that you’re saying what I think you’re saying.

Are you really suggesting that the option of contraception and abortion should be removed, to ensure that women are loved, respected, and cherished by men?

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18. somedu+AG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 11:43:12
>>throwa+RD
> But that doesn't mean that conservatism in general is a bad idea.

It's crazy to me that conservatism has become a dirty word. And I wasn't immune to that either when I was younger. It's only as I've matured that I realized what the word actually means and that conservatism is actually the center on the reactionary-conservative-progressive axis. I also learned that progressivism is mainly ideologies driven from academic circles who consider themselves an intellectual elite that should decide where society is headed and that those circles have been catastrophically wrong in the past with things like eugenics and communism.

replies(1): >>hotpot+tH1
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19. hotpot+tH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 11:48:52
>>somedu+AG1
In my experience, conservatism means tax cuts for the wealthy and whatever it takes to sell them. "Family values" were the sales pitch when I was a kid and they could use that against a president who liked to diddle the interns. Nowadays, they seem to be taking a different direction since the leader of their party is a genital-grabbing philanderer, but he did get them their tax cuts.
replies(1): >>throwa+aJ1
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20. throwa+aJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 12:02:30
>>hotpot+tH1
You're equating conservatism with the US republican party.

I've often thought that if I moved to the US I'd have no-one to vote for. Both sides seem to have some insane, out there policy.

replies(1): >>Shawnj+982
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21. WHYLEE+cL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 12:17:28
>>kelips+VX
at the same time many here seem to think "not understanding a system" can involve totally good faith arguments like "sticking your head in the sand" and "putting a blindfold and earplugs in and saying LALALALALALALA!"
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22. slibhb+lZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 13:46:29
>>throwa+RD
I didn't mean to write off social conservatism. I just meant that it's unappealing to roughly half the country and it's unclear what liberals are supposed to tell men and women to discourage this behavior.
replies(1): >>throwa+z52
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23. throwa+z52[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 14:23:30
>>slibhb+lZ1
Ah, fair enough.

I don't really know the situation on the ground in the US. In the UK I feel like we're a fairly conservative country in general, the majority of the population are socially conservative (if perhaps not fiscally), but then the political parties are split in a way that makes this complicated.

Put simply - in the UK, half of the country are capital C Conservative, but probably >80% are conservative.

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24. rngnam+n62[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 14:28:31
>>predic+Xq
Hi. I'm a feminist and I support women doing whatever they want of their own autonomous will. Including marketing dumb weak men that can't seem to keep their crystal meth addiction out of every corner of their life.
replies(1): >>predic+Ok2
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25. Shawnj+982[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 14:35:43
>>throwa+aJ1
Yeah conservatism as in tax cuts for the middle class and poor and less government services as a result is not a policy in the US lol
replies(1): >>throwa+Jp2
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26. predic+Ok2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 15:26:39
>>rngnam+n62
Lol wat. I guess that would be responsive if the e-girls were marketing to men with free meth but in fact that's not what were discussing. Afaict it's "omg booba I my tv, booba in my vida game, booba in the military", and contrary to what some here (hopefully jokingly) assert, not all men operate in such a way.

Which reminds me were just ignoring the true grossness of this marketing given the military's extreme issues with sexual assault.

replies(1): >>rngnam+Mn2
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27. rngnam+Mn2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 15:36:02
>>predic+Ok2
My argument would be that as someone who is not addicted to porn/"booba", you might see it simply a decision to "operate in such a way", but for others they might struggle with addiction.
replies(1): >>predic+jp2
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28. predic+jp2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 15:41:17
>>rngnam+Mn2
Huh, I got out empathied today, here. I think that's a useful take and does make me reconsider my gut reaction. Hm. Thanks for the thought and elaboration.

Hmm, lots of power dynamics and angles, especially given this all happening under the auspice of the state building their war machine.

Anyway, thanks again.

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29. throwa+Jp2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 15:42:20
>>Shawnj+982
I'm talking about the social policy.

Simplified, republicans seem to have an issue with abortion. Democrats seem to think there are eleven genders.

Both just seem super out there to me as a Brit.

Financial policies aren't really something I care about to the same degree.

replies(1): >>Shawnj+wC2
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30. nradov+Rz2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 16:23:24
>>throwa+RD
Conservatism offers no solutions here so we can safely write it off for this particular issue. There is no way to prevent content creators and media companies from running uncontrolled experiments to maximize advertising revenue or user engagement or whatever metric. In the USA we have the rule of law and constitutionally guaranteed freedom of expression. The potential benefits of pushing right up to the line are so huge that there will be no voluntary restraint in the general case. Even if YouTube or Instagram were to restrict risque content the creators and consumers would eventually move on to a new service.
replies(1): >>Kokoua+xy5
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31. Shawnj+wC2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 16:33:58
>>throwa+Jp2
I will say that the left leaning social policy in the US seemed silly to me at first until I became better friends with people who are in those groups and a bit of it is still silly but it does make a lot more sense from their perspective.
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32. HeyLau+tG2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 16:49:27
>>NoZebr+D1
And what's the woman's perspective in all this?
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33. softso+AJ4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 08:04:29
>>NoZebr+D1
Historically, I don't exactly think women were loved, respected or cherished by men, at least not all the time, nor how we think of it in modern terms and I don't think contraception is the cause of it.

Women in many cultures and times were just seen as baby machines and failing to have children often led to intense shame especially if the women failed to produce the right gender. And for those with unwanted pregnancy - suicide was a common option either by failed abortion, or trying to make ends meet in other ways, or just straight suicide I read quite a lot of stories of it. People made things work or just didn't and finished it quickly, they were expected to and I'd say that the concept of love was a lot different then how we think of it now. People did things because they were supposed to (or were forced too), not always because they wanted to. You can look at any time in history and see this, the Bible has a ton of examples of poor women in bad situations (Leah & Rachel, Hagar, Bathsheba, etc). It also even brings up when to abort a child as a way to prove guilt or innocence of sleeping around (Ordeal of the bitter water.) But you find concubine stories, slave stories, multiple wives all over the world, ... Women historical were often treated more like children or objects then treasure. The Bible also shows cases of women in power too (Deborah, Miriam, etc) and the love of them is mixed. I'm just saying you might think it's a 'modern problem' but it's always been a part of history. Conception has always been around too even if not well understood, the rich having the best access.

I do agree that relationships nowadays can be much cheaper though but for particular generations like millennials for example sex in general is at an all time historical low. I'd say in general more people are afraid of relationships then anything due to money, family trauma or many other cases be it America, Europe and Asian countries. It's more stress and fear related then anything I'd say besides the devaluing of children (in cities they are an expense, on a farm an asset). Plus with many families separated because of work, it's harder to rise children with lack of community in many places.

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34. namari+7S4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 09:23:39
>>throwa+RD
People have been denouncing prostitution as debasing, demoralizing, and distracting for as long as writing has been available, maybe longer.

Manipulating people with sex is nothing new, and we will keep finding new ways to do it with every new technological innovation.

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35. Kokoua+xy5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:28:02
>>nradov+Rz2
I agree that there is not a regulatory measure capable of curbing content creators from carrying out these kind of videos.

However, the previous comments were suggesting that a broader adoption of social conservatism could potentially influence the algorithm's function, mainly due to the increased likelihood of individuals shunning such videos.

replies(1): >>nradov+wM5
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36. nradov+wM5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:22:26
>>Kokoua+xy5
Conservative individuals still watch those videos in private while virtue signaling against them in public. They're all hypocrites.
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