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[parent] [thread] 13 comments
1. NoZebr+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-06-25 20:06:00
Ironically, the widespread use of contraception and abortion means that women are much more likely to be used and abused, treated as objects, and discarded as disposable, rather than loved, respected, and cherished by men who are attracted to them.

They've claimed that this is their choice, that this is empowering, that the alternative was slavery and oppression, but I'm not sure how many sincerely believe those slogans.

This was all foreseen and predicted. The world was warned, but the world pressed on blindly.

replies(5): >>cbg0+X1 >>Larrik+u7 >>mock-p+p41 >>HeyLau+QE2 >>softso+XH4
2. cbg0+X1[view] [source] 2023-06-25 20:20:40
>>NoZebr+(OP)
You forgot to add a bunch of [citation needed]
replies(1): >>NoZebr+i6
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3. NoZebr+i6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 20:50:09
>>cbg0+X1
> You forgot to add a bunch of [citation needed]

Well if you're the one who needs citations, no problem.

https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docume...

Casti connubii, Pope Pius XI, 12/31/1930: released to coincide with the Anglican Lambeth Conference. Paragraphs 45-48, 51, 63-67, 71, 75, 106.

https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/docume...

Humanae vitae, Pope Saint Paul VI, 7/25/1968: released in response to the hormonal contraceptive pill (not to mention the "sexual revolution" while the Vietnam War raged on). HV is remarkably short, and I recommend reading it in full if you have a few minutes. But you want citations: Paragraphs 3, 7, 10, 13, 14, 16, and finally, the predictions and anticipation are laid bare in paragraph 17.

"Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection."

replies(3): >>CyberD+tp >>predic+yp >>cbg0+C21
4. Larrik+u7[view] [source] 2023-06-25 20:58:39
>>NoZebr+(OP)
So you believe women would be better off without access to abortions and contraceptives because men have to be shitty to women if the women choose to have sex? Not every guy feels the need to shame a woman for having a sex drive.

Why would a woman, forced into viewing sex as inherently risky, want to get married to a guy with those views? Wouldn't it be better to be dumped after a few dates instead of being married to someone who doesn't respect you.

In this world are married couple, also forced to only have sex for procreation or have their family size explode to levels where they can't afford their children. Why would men or women want that? Kids survive childhood far more often and most people don't need a bunch of free labor for the fields anymore.

This is also completely ignoring the huge health issues we are seeing now in states banning abortions, with women being forced to bring dead fetuses to term, doctors afraid of running afoul of the law to save a woman's life when there is an issue with the pregnancy, and raped children and women being forced to flee their state or have their rapist's baby.

It's a pretty sick future if we eventually encourage these mass shooters to rape someone on their way to the crime because they know their lineage will live on.

replies(1): >>NoZebr+j8
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5. NoZebr+j8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 21:04:53
>>Larrik+u7
> forced into viewing sex as inherently risky

I don't understand what you mean by "forced" and "inherently risky". What risks are you talking about? Sex isn't ever "inherently risky" and I don't know anyone who would reason like that if they just thought about it for a few moments. There are circumstances and behaviors which may increase risk of certain outcomes when having sex. There is nothing "inherent" about these elements. You don't make any sense.

Sex is inherently exciting, enjoyable, holy, and very good. Sex is designed that way so that humans and other creatures will engage in it often. Christians understand this, and we promote that view.

Your comments draw a bleak landscape of discord and strife over sex, and nobody wants that. We want a Culture of Life, where human dignity is respected and upheld at every stage of life, for every person, equally.

replies(2): >>Larrik+L9 >>kowbel+Ou
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6. Larrik+L9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 21:15:19
>>NoZebr+j8
If you were responding in good faith you would respond to my full post, instead of part of a single sentence, where many of the risk without abortion and contraceptive access are listed.

Edit: It's also poor form to stealthily edit your comment after someone has already replied to it and you've been down voted for it.

replies(1): >>NoZebr+Hb
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7. NoZebr+Hb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 21:30:41
>>Larrik+L9
Well you're not posting in good faith; it's evident from your using emotive false equivalencies like "forced" and "inherently risky". If you weren't starting from false premises then we may have a chance at honest debate.
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8. CyberD+tp[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 23:14:57
>>NoZebr+i6
I think you are confusing science and statistics with made up 55 year old nonsense written by people living lives completely without women but pretending to have something worthwhile to say.
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9. predic+yp[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 23:15:20
>>NoZebr+i6
Do you actually expect anyone, anywhere to believe that men would start treating women better if the pill went away? Good lord almighty.
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10. kowbel+Ou[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 23:58:18
>>NoZebr+j8
> What risks are you talking about? Sex isn't ever "inherently risky"

Sex is very often inherently risky. Before protection became commonplace it was almost always inherently risky.

You seemed to be disappointed in the “widespread use of contraception” in your original post - without contraception there’s even more risk.

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11. cbg0+C21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-26 05:35:38
>>NoZebr+i6
I was looking for some actual science, not fiction.
12. mock-p+p41[view] [source] 2023-06-26 05:55:17
>>NoZebr+(OP)
I’m having difficulty believing that you’re saying what I think you’re saying.

Are you really suggesting that the option of contraception and abortion should be removed, to ensure that women are loved, respected, and cherished by men?

13. HeyLau+QE2[view] [source] 2023-06-26 16:49:27
>>NoZebr+(OP)
And what's the woman's perspective in all this?
14. softso+XH4[view] [source] 2023-06-27 08:04:29
>>NoZebr+(OP)
Historically, I don't exactly think women were loved, respected or cherished by men, at least not all the time, nor how we think of it in modern terms and I don't think contraception is the cause of it.

Women in many cultures and times were just seen as baby machines and failing to have children often led to intense shame especially if the women failed to produce the right gender. And for those with unwanted pregnancy - suicide was a common option either by failed abortion, or trying to make ends meet in other ways, or just straight suicide I read quite a lot of stories of it. People made things work or just didn't and finished it quickly, they were expected to and I'd say that the concept of love was a lot different then how we think of it now. People did things because they were supposed to (or were forced too), not always because they wanted to. You can look at any time in history and see this, the Bible has a ton of examples of poor women in bad situations (Leah & Rachel, Hagar, Bathsheba, etc). It also even brings up when to abort a child as a way to prove guilt or innocence of sleeping around (Ordeal of the bitter water.) But you find concubine stories, slave stories, multiple wives all over the world, ... Women historical were often treated more like children or objects then treasure. The Bible also shows cases of women in power too (Deborah, Miriam, etc) and the love of them is mixed. I'm just saying you might think it's a 'modern problem' but it's always been a part of history. Conception has always been around too even if not well understood, the rich having the best access.

I do agree that relationships nowadays can be much cheaper though but for particular generations like millennials for example sex in general is at an all time historical low. I'd say in general more people are afraid of relationships then anything due to money, family trauma or many other cases be it America, Europe and Asian countries. It's more stress and fear related then anything I'd say besides the devaluing of children (in cities they are an expense, on a farm an asset). Plus with many families separated because of work, it's harder to rise children with lack of community in many places.

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