zlacker

[parent] [thread] 68 comments
1. orbita+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-12-15 21:46:07
Artists have all my sympathy. I'm also a hobbyist painter. But I have very little sympathy for those perpetuating this tiresome moral panic (a small amount of actual artists, whatever the word "artist" means), because I think that:

a) the panic is entirely misguided and based on two wrong assumptions. The first is that textual input and treating the model as a function (command in -> result out) are sufficient for anything. No, this is a fundamentally deficient way to give artistic directions, which is further handicapped by primitive models and weak compute. Text alone is a toy; the field will just become more and more complex and technically involved, just like 3D CGI did, because if you don't use every trick available, you're missing out. The second wrong assumption is that it's going to replace anyone, instead of making many people re-learn a new tool and produce what was previously unfeasible due to the amount of mechanistic work involved. This second assumption stems from the fundamental misunderstanding of the value artists provide, which is conceptualization, even in a seemingly routine job.

b) the panic is entirely blown out of proportion by the social media. Most people have neither time nor desire to actually dive into this tech and find out what works and what doesn't. They just believe that a magical machine steals their works to replace them, because that's what everyone reposts on Twitter endlessly.

replies(6): >>thorde+Q2 >>dtn+r9 >>jacque+0f >>slimeb+cs >>vl+ky >>dubya+WB
2. thorde+Q2[view] [source] 2022-12-15 21:59:13
>>orbita+(OP)
You are demonstrating that lack of empathy. Artist's works are being stolen and used to train AI, that then produces work that will affect that artist's career. The advancement of this tech in the past 6 months, if it maintains this trajectory, demonstrates this.
replies(7): >>Permit+L4 >>pfisch+A6 >>_0ffh+Ra >>blinco+Db >>idiots+Nb >>bernie+Wb >>NL807+vq
◧◩
3. Permit+L4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:11:13
>>thorde+Q2
> Artist's works are being stolen

It has been fascinating to watch “copyright infringement is not theft” morph into “actually yes it’s stealing” over the last few years.

It used to be incredibly rare to find copyright maximalists on HackerNews, but with GitHub Co-pilot and StableDiffusion it seems to have created a new generation of them.

replies(4): >>keving+r7 >>blames+s8 >>wahnfr+W8 >>blinco+kd
◧◩
4. pfisch+A6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:20:44
>>thorde+Q2
So I employ quite a few artists, and I don't see the problem. This whole thing basically seems more like a filter on photoshop then something that will take a persons job.

If artists I employ want to incorporate this stuff into their workflow, that sounds great. They can get more done. There won't be less artists on payroll, just more and better art will be produced. I don't even think it is at the point of incorporating it into a workflow yet though, so this really seems like a nothing burger to me.

At least github copilot is useful. This stuff is really not useful in a professional context, and the idea that it is going to take artists jobs really doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, if there aren't any artists then who exactly do I have that is using these AI tools to make new designs? If you think the answer to that is just some intern, then you really don't know what you're talking about.

replies(1): >>keving+I7
◧◩◪
5. keving+r7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:26:08
>>Permit+L4
"copyright infringement is not theft" is not an especially common view among artists or musicians, since copyright infringement threatens their livelihood. I don't think there's anything inconsistent about this. Yes, techies tend to hold the opposite view.

Personally, I think "copyright infringement is not theft" but I also think that using artists' work without their permission for profit is never OK, and that's what's happening here.

replies(1): >>sdiupI+4Z
◧◩◪
6. keving+I7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:28:15
>>pfisch+A6
With respect, you need to pay more attention to how and why these networks are used. People write complex prompts containing things like "trending on artstation" or "<skilled artist's name>" then use unmodified AI output in places like blog articles, profile headers, etc where you normally would have put art made by an artist.

Yes, artists can also utilize AI as a photoshop filter, and some artists have started using it to fill in backgrounds in drawings, etc. Inpainting can also be used to do unimportant textures for 3d models. But that doesn't mean that AI art is no threat to artists' livelihoods, especially for scenarios like "I need a dozen illustrations to go with these articles" where quality isn't so important to the commissioner that they are willing to spend an extra few hundred bucks instead of spending 15 minutes in midjourney or stable diffusion.

As long as these networks continue being trained on artists' work without permission or compensation, they will continue to improve in output quality and muscle the actual artists out of work.

replies(2): >>pfisch+59 >>orbita+Md
◧◩◪
7. blames+s8[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:33:15
>>Permit+L4
Individual humans copying corporate products vs corporations copying the work of individual humans they didn't pay.

The confusion is that “copyright infringement is not theft” really was about being against corporate abuse of individuals. It's still the same situation here.

replies(1): >>scarfa+1d
◧◩◪
8. wahnfr+W8[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:37:04
>>Permit+L4
Copyright should not exist, but artists do need support somehow and doing away with copyright without other radical changes to economy/society leaves them high and dry. Copyright not existing should pair with other forms of support such as UBI or worker councilization, instead of ridding it while clutching capitalist pearls and ultimately only accelerating capitalism at their expense
◧◩◪◨
9. pfisch+59[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:38:05
>>keving+I7
If you are looking for a bunch of low quality art there are tons of free sources for that already. If this is what you mean when you say "putting artists out of work" you are really talking about less than 1% of where artist money is spent.
replies(1): >>keving+1l
10. dtn+r9[view] [source] 2022-12-15 22:40:08
>>orbita+(OP)
> But I have very little sympathy for those perpetuating this tiresome moral panic (a small amount of actual artists, whatever the word "artist" means)

> A small amount of actual artists

It's extremely funny that you say this, because taking a look at the Trending on Artstation page tells a different story.

https://www.artstation.com/?sort_by=trending

replies(1): >>orbita+1h
◧◩
11. _0ffh+Ra[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:49:39
>>thorde+Q2
So who's that mythical artist that hasn't seen and learned from the works of other artists? After all, these works will have left an imprint in their neural connections, so by the same argument their works are just as derivative, or "stolen".
replies(1): >>jacque+lf
◧◩
12. blinco+Db[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:53:28
>>thorde+Q2
As someone who's shifted careers twice because disruptive technologies made some other options impractical, I can definitely appreciate that some artists are very upset about the idea of maybe having to change their plans for the future (or maybe not, depending on the kind of art they make), but all art is built on art that came before.

How is training AI on imagery from the internet without permission different than decades of film and game artists borrowing H. R. Giger's style for alien technology?[1]

How is it different from decades of professional and amateur artists using the characteristic big-eyed manga/anime look without getting permission from Osamu Tezuka?

Copyright law doesn't cover general "style". Try to imagine the minefield that would exist if it were changed to work that way.

[1] No, I don't mean Alien, or other works that actually involved Giger himself.

replies(1): >>bigiai+Qv
◧◩
13. idiots+Nb[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:54:44
>>thorde+Q2
Is 'looking at something' equivalent to stealing it? The use by all these diffusion networks is pretty much the definition of transformative. If a person was doing this it wouldn't even be interesting enough to talk about it. When a machine does it somehow that is morally distinct?
◧◩
14. bernie+Wb[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:55:18
>>thorde+Q2
Existing art trains the neural nets in human artists as well. All art is derivative. No art is wholly unique.

Will human artists be able to compete with artificial artists commercially? If not, is that bad or is it progress, like Photoshop or Autotune?

◧◩◪◨
15. scarfa+1d[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 23:01:03
>>blames+s8
So it’s okay to infringe on copyright against a group of people getting paid by a corporation. But not individual artists and you should definitely not break open source copyright rules?
replies(1): >>blames+Bm
◧◩◪
16. blinco+kd[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 23:02:47
>>Permit+L4
But it's not even copyright. Copyright does not protect general styles. It protects specific works, or specific designs (e.g. Mickey Mouse). It doesn't allow someone to claim ownership over a general concept like "a painting of a knight with a castle and a dragon in the background".

Are there any documented cases where copyright law didn't seem to offer sufficient protection against something that really did seem like copyright infringement but done using AI tooling? I started looking for some a few weeks ago because of this debate and still haven't seen anything conclusive.

replies(1): >>weq+7T
◧◩◪◨
17. orbita+Md[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 23:05:56
>>keving+I7
That's only one side of a coin. If a tool is so advanced that it takes away the easy applications, then it's also advanced enough to create novel fields.

Take for example video games. They distracted many people from movies, but also created a huge new field, hungry for talents. Or another one, quite a few genres calcified into distinctive boring styles over the years (see anything related to manga/anime as an example) simply because those styles require less mechanical work and are cheaper to produce. They could use a deep refresh. This tech will also lead to novel applications, created by those who embraced it and are willing to learn the increasingly complex toolset. That's what been happening the last several decades, which have seen several tech revolutions.

>As long as these networks continue being trained on artists' work

This misses the point. The real power of those things is not in the collection of styles baked into it. It's in the ability to learn new stuff. Finetuning and style transfer is what all the wizards do. Construct your own visual style by hand, make it produce more of that. And that's not just about static 2D images; neither do 2D illustrators represent all artists in the broad sense. Everyone who types "blah blah in the style of Ilya Kuvshinov" or is using img2img or whatever is just missing out, because the same stuff is going to be everywhere real soon.

18. jacque+0f[view] [source] 2022-12-15 23:14:42
>>orbita+(OP)
That's exactly that lack of empathy the OP was on about: if you don't see that there is something wrong by a bunch of programmers feeding everybody's work into the meatgrinder and then to start spitting out stuff that they claim is original work when they probably couldn't draw a stick figure themselves then it is clear that something isn't quite right. At least, to me.
replies(2): >>Nursie+XJ >>msmena+723
◧◩◪
19. jacque+lf[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 23:16:39
>>_0ffh+Ra
These are not artists being inspired by the works of other artists, these are programmers taking the work of artists and then claiming to create original works when in fact they are automatically generated derivatives.

Try telling one of the programmers to produce a work of art based on a review of all of the works that went into training the models and see how it works out.

replies(3): >>brian_+3p >>chrisc+lw >>moth-f+DI
◧◩
20. orbita+1h[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 23:25:37
>>dtn+r9
That's what the b) was about, yes.

And ironically, the overwhelming majority of knowledge used by these models to produce pictures that superficially look like their work (usually not at all), is not coming from any artworks at all. It's as simple as that. They are mostly trained on photos which constitute the bulk of models' knowledge about the real world. They are the main source of coherency. Artist names and keywords like "trending on artstation" are just easily discoverable and very rough handles for pieces of the memory of the models.

replies(1): >>dtn+fo
◧◩◪◨⬒
21. keving+1l[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 23:50:54
>>pfisch+59
OK, so your argument here is "it doesn't matter because the art being replaced by AI is cheap and/or mass-produced"? What happens once the quality of the network-generated art goes up and it's able to displace more expensive works? What is the basis for your argument that this is "less than 1%"?
replies(1): >>pfisch+Cm
◧◩◪◨⬒
22. blames+Bm[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:02:02
>>scarfa+1d
"group of people getting paid by a corporation" they are not involved at all. Corporations are their own person's, remember.

It's almost like the real problem is asymmetry and abuse of power.

replies(1): >>scarfa+6q
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
23. pfisch+Cm[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:02:39
>>keving+1l
Art will get better and we will have artists that use AI tools to produce a lot more of it faster and entirely new professions will emerge as an evolution in art occurs and the world gets better.

This is like saying that photoshop is going to put all the artists out of work because one artist can now do the work of a team of people drawing by hand. So far these AIs are just tools. Tools help humans to produce more and the economy keeps chugging ever upwards.

There is no upper limit of how much art we need. Marvel movies and videogames will just keep looking better and better as our artists increase their capabilities using AI tools to assist them.

Daz3d didn't put modelers and artists out of work, and what Daz and iClone can do is way way more impressive(and useful in a professional setting) than AI Art.

◧◩◪
24. dtn+fo[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:15:47
>>orbita+1h
I don't think the fact that photos are making up the vast majority of the training set is of any particular significance.

Can SD create artistic renderings without actual art being incorporated? Just from photos alone? I don't believe so, unless someone shows me evidence to the contrary.

Hence, SD necessitates having artwork in it's training corpus in order to emulate style, no matter how little it's represented in the training data.

replies(1): >>orbita+bt
◧◩◪◨
25. brian_+3p[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:22:56
>>jacque+lf
What distinguishes a derivative from an original work? What is it about AI-generated art which makes it so clearly derivative, in your mind?
replies(1): >>jacque+Rt
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
26. scarfa+6q[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:31:38
>>blames+Bm
Who is being “abused” by you not having access to other people’s content in the way you want?
replies(1): >>blames+1w
◧◩
27. NL807+vq[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:34:41
>>thorde+Q2
> stolen

Is it though? What if I were to look at your art style and replicate that style manually in my own works? I see no difference whether it's done by a machine, or done by hand. The reality is that every art is a derivative of some other art. Interestingly, the music industry has been doing this for years. Ever since samplers became a thing, musicians spliced and diced loops into their own tracks for donkeys years, and created an explosion of new genres and sound. Hip-hop, techno, dark ambient, EDM, ..., all fall into the same category. Machine learning is just another new tool to create something.

replies(4): >>melago+Vr >>pcthro+es >>random+os >>noober+Vw
◧◩◪
28. melago+Vr[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:44:31
>>NL807+vq
last time this happened on human, people are so angry. the guy who copy other artwork even got cancelled by company. but actually not in music region, you are right.
29. slimeb+cs[view] [source] 2022-12-16 00:46:04
>>orbita+(OP)
> "The first is that textual input and treating the model as a function (command in -> result out) are sufficient for anything. No, this is a fundamentally deficient way to give artistic directions, which is further handicapped by primitive models and weak compute."

This is the first wave of half decent AI.

But more importantly, you are vastly underestimating the millions of small jobs out there that artists use as a stepping stone.

Think of the millions of managers who would happily be presented with a choice of 10 artistic interpretations, and pick one for the sake of getting a quick job done.

No way on earth this isn't going to make a major impact. Empathy absolutely required.

replies(3): >>dmix+Qu >>chrisc+Xu >>steve1+yz
◧◩◪
30. pcthro+es[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:46:09
>>NL807+vq
I'd say it's more similar to an artist drawing influence from another artist, and there is a difference in that the machines can do it much more efficiently.

Personally, I'm all for AI training and using human artwork. I think telling it not to prevents progress/innovation, and that innovation is going to happen somewhere.

If it happens somewhere, humans who live in that somewhere will just use those tools to launder the AI-generated artwork, and companies will hire those offshore humans and reap the benefits, all the while, the effect on local artists' wages is even more negative because now they don't have access to the tools to compete in this ar(tificial intelligence)ms race.

◧◩◪
31. random+os[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:46:43
>>NL807+vq
It’s not stolen. If I create a work mimicking the style of whomever, I’ve not taken anything from them besides an idea. Ideas are not protected. Ideas are the point. If you don’t want to share your ideas, feel free not to.

Most people do not understand the purpose of copyright. Copyright is a bargain between society and the creator. The creator receives limited protection of the work for a limited time. Why is this the deal?

The purpose of copyright is to advance the progress of science and the useful arts. It is to benefit humanity as a whole.

AI takes nothing more than an idea. It does not take a “creative expression fixed in a tangible media”.

◧◩◪◨
32. orbita+bt[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:52:25
>>dtn+fo
SD has several separate parts. In the most simplistic sense (not entirely accurate to how it functions), one translates English into a semantic address inside the "main memory", and another one extracts the contents of the memory that the address refers to. If you prevent the first one (CLIP) from understanding artists names by removing the correspondence between names and addresses, the data will still be there and can be addressed in any other way, for example custom trained embeddings. Even if you remove artworks from the dataset entirely, you can easily finetune it on anything you want using various techniques, because the bulk of the training ($$$!) has already been done for you, and the coherency, knowledge of how things look in general, shapes, lighting, poses, etc is already there. You only need to skew it towards your desired style a bit.

Style transfer combined with the overall coherency of pre-trained models is the real power of these. "Country house in the style of Picasso" is generally not how you use this at full power, because "Picasso" is a poor descriptor for particular memory coordinates. You type "Country house" (a generic descriptor it knows very well) and provide your own embedding or any kind of finetuned addon to precisely lean the result towards the desired style, whether constructed by you or anyone else.

So, if anyone believes that this thing would drive the artists out of their jobs, then removing their works from the training set will change very little as it will still be able to generate anything given a few examples, on a consumer GPU. And that's only the current generation of such models and tools. (which admittedly doesn't pass the quality/controllability threshold required for serious work, just yet)

◧◩◪◨⬒
33. jacque+Rt[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:58:39
>>brian_+3p
That the process is automated. That is one of the important tests of originality, that something is not created in a mechanical fashion.
replies(2): >>bigiai+Bw >>_0ffh+Lw
◧◩
34. dmix+Qu[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:05:30
>>slimeb+cs
So empathy as in being considerate they are losing their jobs right? Not that AI art generation is inherently a bad thing? Or that they or I can doing anything about it?
◧◩
35. chrisc+Xu[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:06:38
>>slimeb+cs
If small pointless jobs able to be done by machines are so great then lets get rid of computers, power tools, and automation so we can get those unemployment numbers down… why can’t we find a solution that doesn’t hamper progress? At the end of the day progress saves lives.
replies(1): >>Nursie+HI
◧◩◪
36. bigiai+Qv[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:12:10
>>blinco+Db
> Copyright law doesn't cover general "style". Try to imagine the minefield that would exist if it were changed to work that way.

We don’t need to “try to imagine”, we just need to wait a bit and watch Walt’s reanimated corpse and army of undead lawyers come out swinging for those “mice in the general style of Mickey Mouse”.

replies(1): >>tidenl+Lv1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
37. blames+1w[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:13:09
>>scarfa+6q
I think we miscommunicated somewhere. I was being sarcastic when I said cooperations were people. If we had a model of capitalism dominated by collective employee ownership I think your ethical argument might work. We don't.
◧◩◪◨
38. chrisc+lw[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:15:57
>>jacque+lf
Modern artists use photoshop and benefit from a lot of computational tools already. There isn’t much difference between a computational or AI-assisted tool such as a “paint style digital brush” or “inpainting” and a tool such as a physical brush, paint knife, or toothbrush when used by the artist to achieve an effect. There is no universal rule that says only me mechanically made art is real art. Collage artists who literally copy and paste other people’s photos are also making art. In fact Photoshop already incorporates many AI assisted tools to add to the artist’s repertoire, and being able to generate unique images from a statistical merging of all the art styles online is just another tool in this fashion. Automation is the foundation of all our progress, as it is just the enhancement of another tool that replaces our hands and makes them bigger (metaphorically) so that we can build bigger and better things constantly.

Ok so now many more people can generate cool looking photos now in an automatic fashion. So what? It just means we’ve raised the bar… for what can be considered cool.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
39. bigiai+Bw[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:18:26
>>jacque+Rt
> that something is not created in a mechanical fashion.

I wonder if the nerds have shot themselves in the foot here with terminology? I suspect the nerd’s lawyers would have been much happier if the entire field was named “automated mechanical creativity” instead of “artificial intelligence”. It’d be kinda amusing to see the whole field of study lose in court because of their own persistent claims that what they’re doing is not just “creating in a mechanical fashion” but creating “intelligence” which can therefore be held to account for copyright infringement. Shades of Al Capone getting busted for taxes…

replies(1): >>jacque+az
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
40. _0ffh+Lw[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:19:32
>>jacque+Rt
I submit that human artists are, at the most fundamental level, no less "mechanical". They're just more complex.

Also, should a human artist creating a pastiche count as copyright infringement as well?

◧◩◪
41. noober+Vw[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:20:22
>>NL807+vq
If I take your source code, copy it and then change the variable names, did I take inspiration or copy it?
replies(1): >>NL807+4y
◧◩◪◨
42. NL807+4y[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:28:17
>>noober+Vw
That's a false analogy. Variable renames does not change anything, it's still the exact replica of the algorithm in question. Also, in engineering and computer science circles, cloning designs or code is often regarded as an acceptable practice, even encouraged (within the bounds of licensing). And for good reason, if there is a good solution to a problem, then why reinvent the wheel?
replies(1): >>numpad+kH
43. vl+ky[view] [source] 2022-12-16 01:29:56
>>orbita+(OP)
>Artists have all my sympathy.

Humans have my sympathy. We are literally at the brink of the multiple major industries being wiped out. What was only theoretical for the last 10-15 years started to happen right now.

In few short years most humans will not be able to find any employment because machine will be more efficient and cheaper. Society will transform beyond any previous transformations in history. Most likely it's going to be very rough. But we just argue that of course our specific jobs are going to stay.

replies(2): >>depole+vz >>gwbroo+PA
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
44. jacque+az[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:35:20
>>bigiai+Bw
Good point, I had not thought of that, but terminology really matters with stuff like this and you may well be right.
◧◩
45. depole+vz[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:37:17
>>vl+ky
You literally just did what the parent just argued against.
replies(1): >>vl+aB
◧◩
46. steve1+yz[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:37:34
>>slimeb+cs
Also those millions of managers will soon be redundant, what they do is often quite trivial.
◧◩
47. gwbroo+PA[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:46:40
>>vl+ky
If we take your vision at face value, what do you think should be done?
replies(2): >>vl+8C >>apatil+F51
◧◩◪
48. vl+aB[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:48:33
>>depole+vz
That is the point of my comment :) I argue that coming changes are underestimated, there is not enough awareness, and as such discussion and preparedness for them. I would rather have stable societal transition than hunger, riots, civil or world war.
49. dubya+WB[view] [source] 2022-12-16 01:53:34
>>orbita+(OP)
> The first is that textual input and treating the model as a function (command in -> result out) are sufficient for anything. No, this is a fundamentally deficient way to give artistic directions, which is further handicapped by primitive models and weak compute. Text alone is a toy

Some artists just do the descriptive part though, right? The name I can think of is Sol LeWitt, but I'm sure there are others. A lot of it looks like it could be programmed, but might be tricky.

◧◩◪
50. vl+8C[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:55:01
>>gwbroo+PA
Honestly, I don't know. I spent last few days thinking about all this more seriously than in the last 20 years.

Essentially we are going to get away from market economy, money, private property. The problem is that once these things go personal freedom goes as well. So either accept the inevitable totalitarian society, or something else? But what?

replies(1): >>Nursie+qL
◧◩◪◨⬒
51. numpad+kH[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 02:30:53
>>NL807+4y
This discussion hinges solely on whether it’s a false or a true analogy, therefore necessitating a copyright cleared training dataset or not.
◧◩◪◨
52. moth-f+DI[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 02:38:03
>>jacque+lf
Your division of 'artists' and 'programmers' into separate tribes is almost too telling.
◧◩◪
53. Nursie+HI[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 02:38:21
>>chrisc+Xu
This is very black and white thinking.

One can see AI tools as progress here while also recognising that this is likely to have a huge impact on a lot of lives.

replies(1): >>chrisc+bB1
◧◩
54. Nursie+XJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 02:44:58
>>jacque+0f
As someone who has always had a huge gap between what I can imagine and what I can manifest, outside of text anyway, I find the whole thing amazing and massively enabling. And I think it is possible to come up with original images, even though the styles are usually derivative.

At the same time I recognise that this is a massive threat to artists, both low-visibility folks who throw out concepts and logos for companies, and people who may sell their art to the public. Because I can spend a couple of dollars and half an hour to come up with an image I’d be happy to put on my wall.

I’m not sure what the answer is here, but I don’t think a sort of “human origin art” Puritanism is going to hold back the flood, though it may secure a niche like handmade craft goods and organic food…

replies(1): >>jacque+sP
◧◩◪◨
55. Nursie+qL[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 02:51:54
>>vl+8C
This sort of thing was thought about 20 years ago in the story “manna” by Marshall Brain - https://marshallbrain.com/manna1

I have no idea how well it holds up to modern reading, but I found it interesting at the time.

He posits two outcomes - in the fictionalised US the ownership class owns more and more of everything, because automation and intelligence remove the need for workers and even most technicians over time. Everyone else is basically a prisoner given the minimum needed to maintain life.

Or we can become “socialist” in a sort of techno-utopian way, realising that the economy and our laws should work for us and that a post-labor society should be one in which humans are free from dependence on work rather than defined by it.

Does this latter one imply a total lack of freedom? It certainly implies dependence on the state, but for most people (more or less by definition) an equal share would be a better share than they can get now, and they would be free to pursue art or learning or just leisure.

replies(1): >>ElFitz+dT
◧◩◪
56. jacque+sP[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 03:11:13
>>Nursie+XJ
What will happen is exactly the same thing that happened when email made mass mailings possible: a torrent of very low quality art will begin to drown out the better stuff because there is no skill required to produce a flood of trash whereas to produce original work takes talent and time.

As the price of a bit dropped the quality of the comms dropped. It is inevitable that the price of the creation of (crappy) art will do the same thing if only because it will drag down the average.

replies(1): >>tremon+2B5
◧◩◪◨
57. weq+7T[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 03:30:15
>>blinco+kd
The problem with "AI" here is that it copies like no other. It copies everything and learns everything like a master because it is fed off a us.
◧◩◪◨⬒
58. ElFitz+dT[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 03:30:48
>>Nursie+qL
Thank you for that fascinating read!
◧◩◪◨
59. sdiupI+4Z[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:07:33
>>keving+r7
> I don't think there's anything inconsistent about this.

It amounts to saying that anything that benefits me is good and anything to my detriment is bad. Sure, there's a consistency to that. However, if that's the foundation of one's positions, it leads to all manner of other logical inconsistencies and hypocrisies.

◧◩◪
60. apatil+F51[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:50:23
>>gwbroo+PA
We should start having a conversation about what the new social contract will look like and when and how it should be phased in.
◧◩◪◨
61. tidenl+Lv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 08:04:28
>>bigiai+Qv
Intellectual property and copyright are entirely different, and you'd be come after by Disney for making those kinds of images with or without AI. I wish people in the fight against AI would stop trotting this argument out, it muddies stronger arguments against it.
replies(1): >>dredmo+U62
◧◩◪◨
62. chrisc+bB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 08:56:51
>>Nursie+HI
Actually all progress will definitely will have a huge impact on a lot of lives—otherwise it is not progress. By definition it will impact many, by displacing those who were doing it the old way by doing it better and faster. The trouble is when people hold back progress just to prevent the impact. No one should be disagreeing that the impact shouldn't be prevented, but it should not be at the cost of progress.
replies(1): >>Nursie+9H1
◧◩◪◨⬒
63. Nursie+9H1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 09:58:29
>>chrisc+bB1
I very much agree, and I feel the campaigns to stop AI image generation in its tracks are misguided.

I do wonder what happens as the market for the “old way” dries up, because it implies that there is no career path to lead to doing things better - any fool (I include myself) can be an AI jockey, but without people that need the skills of average designers, from what pool will the greats spring?

replies(1): >>chrisc+5t4
◧◩◪◨⬒
64. dredmo+U62[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 13:38:13
>>tidenl+Lv1
Copyright is a subset of intellectual property.

Intellectual property generally includes copyright, patents, trademark, and trade secrets, though there are broader claims such as likeness, celebrity rights, moral rights (e.g., droit d'auteur in French/EU law), and probably a few others since I began writing this comment (the scope seems to be increasing, generally).

I suspect you intended to distinguish trademark and copyright.

◧◩
65. msmena+723[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 18:05:11
>>jacque+0f
The goal of programming as a discipline is to create tools that allow problems to be solved. Art is a problem - how do I express myself to others? The entire industry is designed for moments like this.
replies(1): >>evolve+vD3
◧◩◪
66. evolve+vD3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 20:53:33
>>msmena+723
Unlike many other professions, I don’t think there is much crictical thought from the tech community as to what tech and programming is and isn’t for.

A few people engaged in “hand ringing” but not deep, regular discourse on the evolving nature of what we want “tech” and “programming” to be going forward.

Despite delivering transformative social shifts, even this last decade, where is the collective reflection?

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
67. chrisc+5t4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 01:50:40
>>Nursie+9H1
The gun made it so that even a dainty person could kill a strong person. However, some people are better shooters than others. It will just shift the goal post so that a new skill is required. Being strong is still a thing… just maybe not the most important when in a gun fight.
replies(1): >>Nursie+xD4
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
68. Nursie+xD4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:10:28
>>chrisc+5t4
I don’t see this situation as analogous or even particularly useful - we’re not talking about gun fights, we’re talking about art and design, and whether we will see fewer great artists and designers as the market for moderate or learner artists and designers dries up.

It doesn’t really matter to humanity if strong people can still win fights, but it might matter if artists and designers who do produce great, original work stop being produced. It probably even matters to the AI models because that forms part of their input.

◧◩◪◨
69. tremon+2B5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 13:55:30
>>jacque+sP
a torrent of very low quality art will begin to drown out the better stuff because there is no skill required to produce a flood of trash

Case in point: https://stackoverflow.com/help/gpt-policy

> This trust is broken when users copy and paste information into answers without validating that the answer provided by GPT is correct, ensuring that the sources used in the answer are properly cited (a service GPT does not provide), and verifying that the answer provided by GPT clearly and concisely answers the question asked.

[go to top]