zlacker

[parent] [thread] 144 comments
1. _qulr+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-02-08 11:49:03
It's painfully clear at this point that we need a consumer "bill of rights" to protect us from these giant tech companies. At the very least, companies must be legally required to present you in writing with the so-called violation of terms they're accusing you of, evidence of the violation, and a phone # or other immediate contact so that you can dispute the accusations. It's insane that these basic legal rights don't even exist.

You could of course sue Google, but that's an extremely expensive and time-consuming option, rarely worth it for a mere consumer. Going to court certainly won't make your suspended account become unsuspended any quicker.

replies(14): >>Hamuko+t >>anthon+Z >>nvahal+U8 >>comeon+W9 >>VLM+ca >>Mister+fd >>michae+jj >>prepen+nm >>hertzr+nC >>arrose+zW >>maclur+0Y >>pavon+Si1 >>jsmith+Fy1 >>arendt+nN1
2. Hamuko+t[view] [source] 2021-02-08 11:54:47
>>_qulr+(OP)
>You could of course sue Google

Unless you've waived that right when you agreed to the Terms of Service.

replies(2): >>Semaph+u1 >>KMag+Hs
3. anthon+Z[view] [source] 2021-02-08 11:59:40
>>_qulr+(OP)
You're not seeing the other side of the coin - the huge amount of spam and abuse that such systems correctly identify and remove. If every abuser requests those explanations (which they will) there will be far more spam going around the Internet.

Just think about the army of "Facebook content moderators" who were a popular topic on HN recently due to the concerns over their mental health.

(I am offering no solutions here, for I know none)

replies(10): >>fredgr+c1 >>_qulr+o1 >>_pmf_+B3 >>paulsu+V4 >>khawki+X6 >>syshum+S8 >>ballen+j9 >>mschus+0w >>jlmb+By1 >>Chris2+aq2
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4. fredgr+c1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:02:06
>>anthon+Z
no if the AI can be used to automate the banning it can be used to provide the electronic news email of the rule violated.
replies(1): >>gambit+S5
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5. _qulr+o1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:04:34
>>anthon+Z
> If every abuser requests those explanations (which they will)

It's not a request, it's a requirement. If your account is suspended, you deserve an explanation. You should get one without having to request it.

I'm not saying that companies shouldn't be able to suspend accounts temporarily. I'm simply saying that there needs to be a way to get your account unsuspended if you're innocent. The way it "works" now is that innocent consumers are without any recourse whatsoever.

replies(3): >>daemin+92 >>Ashame+S4 >>rukshn+Y7
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6. Semaph+u1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:05:58
>>Hamuko+t
> Unless you've waived that right when you agreed to the Terms of Service.

Which would be meaningless in the EU (I think. Possibly just Germany) as you can’t waive that right.

replies(1): >>greatp+K7
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7. daemin+92[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:11:58
>>_qulr+o1
I heard on a podcast recently that a trading system needs to keep logs of why a particular trade was executed for several years just in case the authority wants it. So it isn't too much effort to build a similar report or log of behaviour to explain why someone was banned.

Obviously this will also help the spammers who will use this information to get around the filters.

replies(2): >>daemin+y6 >>gibspa+na
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8. _pmf_+B3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:22:04
>>anthon+Z
> the huge amount of spam and abuse that such systems correctly identify and remove.

Maybe allowing single service providers to capture several billions of users is the problem here.

replies(1): >>jeegsy+E5
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9. Ashame+S4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:32:06
>>_qulr+o1
For the record, they don't give away these explanations because such explanation would hint the spammer to what they should _not_ do next time, to avoid getting caught. Same as with anticheat software.
replies(6): >>_qulr+B5 >>donatj+a6 >>Macha+w6 >>AlfeG+58 >>kalleb+u8 >>falcor+f9
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10. paulsu+V4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:32:28
>>anthon+Z
Perhaps the process should cost $100 or $500, so that actual spammers can’t use it

Maybe they really just need to offer a paid account option with real support, since that has much better incentives

replies(3): >>wcoene+n6 >>tartor+h7 >>AlfeG+p8
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11. _qulr+B5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:36:48
>>Ashame+S4
> they don't give away these explanations because such explanation would hint the spammer to what they should _not_ do next time

We've heard this excuse countless times, but it's simply not acceptable. The foundation of our legal system is that it's better to let a criminal go than to punish an innocent person. How many innocents have to get caught in the crossfire before we start protecting them?

replies(2): >>PaulHo+S7 >>gabipu+C8
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12. jeegsy+E5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:37:10
>>_pmf_+B3
Ding Ding Ding!!!
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13. gambit+S5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:39:04
>>fredgr+c1
Well their main argument against it is that if you don't tell scammers which rule exactly they are breaking they can't improve until the app is approved. But of course that hits normal customers too. It's the equivalent of arresting random people on the street and not telling them why - surely, innocent people will just get their lawyer to free them.
replies(1): >>bildun+5a
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14. donatj+a6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:41:53
>>Ashame+S4
It would also give non-spammers a better understanding of why they were banned and teach them to be better humans. It’s this lack of empathy that’s leading to more and more anger online.
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15. wcoene+n6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:43:46
>>paulsu+V4
There is a paid option: for $6/month you can use gmail with your own domain name. It's targeted at businesses but you can use it as an individual.

https://workspace.google.com/pricing.html

It includes support, but I'm not sure if that helps in cases where google thinks you have abused the service. I just use it because I like having my own domain, and so that I don't lose access to my email if google locks me out. The idea is that I can update my domain's MTX records and use another email service.

replies(2): >>sam_go+z9 >>wcoene+np2
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16. Macha+w6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:44:55
>>Ashame+S4
When someone is in court on charges of child abuse, maybe we don't want them to know in case they (After serving their sentence) or their friends go for reprisals. Maybe the next child abuser might know their likely avenue of getting caught. Yet still we tell them the charges and evidence and give them a chance to defend themselves. Often in my country, given the damage such allegations could cause to both the victim and alleged (but not yet proven) perpetrator, we don't even reveal the identities of culprits until there's a guilty verdict.

If we can extend that courtesy to people accused of child abuse, surely we should extend it to people accused of internet spam?

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17. daemin+y6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:45:19
>>daemin+92
Podcast link: https://www.twoscomplement.org/, I think it was the latest episode.
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18. khawki+X6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:47:32
>>anthon+Z
I think this is a convenient narrative for an abusive pattern of behavior by Google. The company is infamous for having non-existent customer service. It's not a matter of their AI having too many false positives, it's that when there is a false positive you have literally no recourse even if you're a well known business partner.

Are we really going to believe that Google, one of the highest grossing companies in the world, doesn't have the money to provide even basic level customer service? If it were really a matter of not being able to afford it, certainly they could offer it for a fee. No, they're stubbornly refusing to address the issues, relying on this lie, and using their market dominance to avoid having to answer for it.

replies(1): >>criley+R8
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19. tartor+h7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:50:32
>>paulsu+V4
Yes, refundable if the company ban proved in the wrong. Sounds like a great solution IMO
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20. greatp+K7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:54:12
>>Semaph+u1
It's the same in France and I think most of EU as the highest french court ruled that forced arbitration was against EU law.
replies(1): >>vaduz+7p
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21. PaulHo+S7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:54:59
>>_qulr+B5
This isnt criminal law. This is the right a private property owner (say the owner of a bar) has to kick you out. There are some limits on that (e.g. a restaurant can't kick black people out) but for the most part a business that doesnt want your business doesnt have to serve you, right or wrong.
replies(5): >>ethbr0+79 >>_qulr+M9 >>syshum+X9 >>msh+Sa >>Majrom+Sf
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22. rukshn+Y7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:55:22
>>_qulr+o1
I think we give up on that when we agree to the rule

Google has the right to suspend, remove your account without prior notice

I'm sure there should be a clause like that in their TOS

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23. AlfeG+58[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:56:15
>>Ashame+S4
I imagine if that happen in real courts. And You got jail without any info on why on how to evade - or You will behave properly on not go in jail
replies(1): >>_flux+Yf
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24. AlfeG+p8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:58:40
>>paulsu+V4
No need in charges. Strong person identification via Passport or Bank. Limit those request per identified person or throttle them.
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25. kalleb+u8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 12:58:47
>>Ashame+S4
You don't have to tell them how you detected them but you can tell them what they did wrong. A lot of times when these cases come up there is nothing in the reason you got banned that would help you avoid the ban. It's purely to avoid any kind of accountability (if they say you got banned for a reason that is plainly not true because their algorithms suck)
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26. gabipu+C8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:00:07
>>_qulr+B5
the legal system deals with a finite number of people; the internet enables that finite number of people to act as a potentially infinite number of entities, without a great way of disaggregating them into people.

E.g. if a spammer can pretend they're 10 million different people, and each of those "people" requests an explanation, the whole system grinds to a halt.

This is the reason behind a push for more KYC-like verification on these platforms (e.g. asking for IDs). But this comes at a huge privacy cost for legitimate users. So one way or another people who are real, legitimate and with good intentions somehow pay the cost of the harm that is being done on the internet. This is a hard problem.

Source: am thinking/working on this sort of stuff; not representing my employer, my opinions are my own etc. etc.

replies(3): >>ethbr0+y9 >>Majrom+Ne >>_qulr+Vv
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27. criley+R8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:01:42
>>khawki+X6
Technically they do offer customer service if you pay them with their Google One product. I have phone numbers and human access very quickly, because I pay for it.

Although obviously if they banned me, I wouldn't have access to my direct support line anymore.

replies(1): >>oauea+w9
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28. syshum+S8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:01:46
>>anthon+Z
So what is the proper Blackstone's ratio for you in these situation?

Is 1000 innocents ok to punish as long as 1 spam message is stopped?

29. nvahal+U8[view] [source] 2021-02-08 13:01:50
>>_qulr+(OP)
> It's painfully clear at this point that we need a consumer "bill of rights" to protect us from these giant tech companies

I get where you're going, but I think far more costly to them and advantageous for us is to simply show them that they are unnecessary.

If we can drop them so easily, they can't pull stuff like this anymore. It is possible to drop Google and Facebook.

They do this stuff because people _need_ them and they know that people won't just drop them en mass.

replies(5): >>vonwoo+tc >>ryanbr+Eg >>newswa+Ro >>whimsi+KH >>thw0rt+07k
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30. ethbr0+79[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:04:34
>>PaulHo+S7
The reason people are incensed about FAANGMP doing so is because, in their respective markets, they're monopolies.

No one would care if Google banning a developer meant they could list their app through a non-Play app store with decent exposure, or a non-App Store at all.

But that's not the reality we live in.

So it's more like if Walmart moved into my podunk town, put all the local shops out of business, and then banned me.

replies(1): >>PaulHo+G9
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31. falcor+f9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:05:34
>>Ashame+S4
Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/810/
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32. ballen+j9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:05:48
>>anthon+Z
This is an age old problem in the criminal justice system. A solved problem.

After a lot of trials with various approaches, we settled on letting some criminals go free over convicting someone on weak evidence. Second we decided that trials should be open and evidence viewable by default.

Finally you generally have the option to give some security to stay out of jail during trial.

Closing a google account is a punishment worse than many criminal convictions. And will only get more important as we progress to an all digital existence.

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33. oauea+w9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:07:38
>>criley+R8
> Although obviously if they banned me, I wouldn't have access to my direct support line anymore.

Which they will do literally on a whim. Who are you going to call then?

replies(1): >>a_pass+5d
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34. ethbr0+y9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:07:41
>>gabipu+C8
Out of curiosity, what's current thinking (broad strokes) on methods to address this?

My first guess would be third-party attestation of identity, with stored credential disposal on a short schedule? Essentially normal-user-verification-as-a-service?

replies(2): >>gabipu+ks >>throwa+IO
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35. sam_go+z9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:07:41
>>wcoene+n6
Support does not include if your account gets suspended or if you lose access.

We had a paid Google App account. One of our workers would only login from their computer. It died, and she tried to login from the new computer. It gave a unrecognized machine error, and we had to hire someone to resuscitate the old computer for her.

I know of a company that had the entire companies' accounts suspended without warning because one user did something that violated their terms, but they could not figure out what. The company lost three months of revenue from it and I am not sure if it caused bankruptcy. No help at all from G.

replies(1): >>KMag+Gx
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36. PaulHo+G9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:08:52
>>ethbr0+79
Hmmmm. I thought it was Apple that banned sideloading.

Maybe Google kicked this guy out for the same reason they fired off their own Stadia devs.

replies(2): >>ethbr0+zd >>Medite+Qj
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37. _qulr+M9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:09:19
>>PaulHo+S7
> This isnt criminal law.

Not yet, but that's my whole point, it needs to be: It's painfully clear at this point that we need a consumer "bill of rights" to protect us from these giant tech companies.

You can't really compare getting kicked out of a bar with losing access to your gmail. There are no "algorithms" automatically kicking innocent people out of bars. Getting kicked out of a bar is a direct human interaction, which is exactly what I'm demanding.

38. comeon+W9[view] [source] 2021-02-08 13:10:39
>>_qulr+(OP)
>It's painfully clear at this point that we need a consumer "bill of rights"...

Maybe? But I worry that politicians will use that as a tool. Look what DeSantis is trying down here in Florida. He wants to fine "Big Tech" for banning politicians during an election. Personally, I'm tired of the lies and provocations and hate speech of some politicians and I don't think any company should be compelled to share those messages.

replies(1): >>Yizahi+Qn
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39. syshum+X9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:10:41
>>PaulHo+S7
>>e.g. a restaurant can't kick black people out

Well they can, just not for the sole reason of being black...

>>This isnt criminal law.

No it is Civil Tort law, but that does not mean your rights are completely removed, nor that principle does not apply

>>This is the right a private property owner (say the owner of a bar) has to kick you out. There are some limits on that

Absolutely, and those limits are normally set either by over riding civil / businessl law passed the government, or a contract entered into by 2 parties

The problem with Google and many other online platforms is their ToS (their contract) is sooooooo one side that IMO it should be considered an unconscionable contract thus void and unenforeable.

Also we have things like Truth in Advertising laws, many times these platforms Public messaging, and advertisement in no way match their terms of service

I am fully in support of the right of a private business to choose who they want to do business with. I am not however in favor of allowing business to use marketing manipulation, false advertisement, and unconscionable contracts in the form of ClickWrapped Terms of Service to abuse the public

the "mah private business" defense is a weak one, very weak, and it is telling that people defending the large companies with this defense often times do not support it in other contexts.

Google has every right to choose who it does business with, but it need to make those choices in transparent, and public manner.

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40. bildun+5a[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:11:15
>>gambit+S5
aka due process
41. VLM+ca[view] [source] 2021-02-08 13:11:57
>>_qulr+(OP)
The Kafka solution to this will be our terms of service prohibit single spacing after periods and you are in violation. Therefore we can terminate your account at any time of our choosing.

Alternately we could prohibit posting in any language other than Latin and Klingon, or using the letter e, or accessing our services using any unapproved operating system (and our only approved OS is windows 3.11 with winsock drivers).

Anyway the point is now the company can ban you for any reason at all. Being the wrong religion, voting for the wrong candidate, being the wrong race, etc.

replies(1): >>Concep+7j
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42. gibspa+na[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:13:04
>>daemin+92
Complete speculation because I don't actually know how this works, but I wonder if the explanation would be something like this:

"You've been banned because our black box ML algorithm says your usage patterns share similar traits to those of known spammers."

replies(2): >>p410n3+Xh >>BlueTe+Zs
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43. msh+Sa[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:16:52
>>PaulHo+S7
But then they should be required to refund your purchases, fx in the app store or their movie store.
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44. vonwoo+tc[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:26:49
>>nvahal+U8
> drop them en mass

The libertarian in me wants to believe that reputation is enough to make business act in the interests of the consumers and that personal responsibility would prevent customers from acting in their best interests: but we all know this is not true.

And, I know enough to know that any public policy that essentially says “Everything will be fine if everyone just does [X]” is bad policy, regardless of what ‘X’ is.

replies(1): >>pietro+mj
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45. a_pass+5d[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:29:10
>>oauea+w9
Ghost busters
replies(1): >>Person+He1
46. Mister+fd[view] [source] 2021-02-08 13:30:11
>>_qulr+(OP)
> It's painfully clear at this point that we need a consumer "bill of rights" to protect us from these giant tech companies.

Google is a private company who offers free internet services in exchange for your privacy being violated. They have no customer service because you are not a customer as customers pay. You have no rights on their platform because again, you are not a paying customer. And you agreed to their terms of service when you signed up. They don't owe you anything at that pont.

So stop expecting "paying customer" treatment from a shady adware dealer who gives you "free" "integrated platform" stuff to get you hooked. That's an old drug dealer tactic anyway.

Want to be treated like a person? You have to pay for that. Otherwise stop whining about the tyranny of "free" platforms such as google, twitter, facebook, etc.

The only thing the government should do is fund PSA's to warn people of the rights and privacy hazards of free internet platforms.

replies(3): >>paulry+9e >>Sayrus+he >>_qulr+kg
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47. ethbr0+zd[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:31:49
>>PaulHo+G9
I don't think the "but you can" rounding error alternate Android app stores and side-loading constitute a viable developer alternative. *

* Except in China, in which case it's only true for their domestic Android market

replies(1): >>BlueTe+Ct
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48. paulry+9e[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:34:20
>>Mister+fd
> The only thing the government should do is fund PSA's ...

Should governments allow caller ID spoofing, spam bordering on harassment, or lazy oligopolies to be negligent?

Governments should do whatever we agree they should. Both governments and companies serve the humans.

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49. Sayrus+he[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:35:00
>>Mister+fd
To be fair, even as a paying customer, you don't get much more "customer service".

The same also applies for Google Play Store where without a doubt you paid at least once and continue for every in-app purchase.

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50. Majrom+Ne[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:37:32
>>gabipu+C8
> This is the reason behind a push for more KYC-like verification on these platforms (e.g. asking for IDs). But this comes at a huge privacy cost for legitimate users.

A way to square this circle is to have rights engage at the point of payment.

A truly pseudonymous account with no monetization (going either way) has little intrinsic value, and less need for KYC-like identification.

On the other hand, an account with some sort of payment history (either giving money in the case of purchases or receiving money in the case of developers/website hosts placing advertising) faces a higher standard. There's a reasonable probability of real economic harm if the account is nuked arbitrarily, and at the same time any money flow is open to theft or money laundering concerns, triggering moral if not legal KYC obligations.

The latter should also help prevent the proliferation of straw bad actors, since providing payment imposes a direct cost, while the KYC rules open up the possibility of more direct action for flagrant breaches of contract / use of the platform for other abuses.

The "spammer" can only pretend to be 10 million different people because e-mail is free. Paying a tenth of a penny per e-mail has been one of those long-standing impossible anti-spam measures, but walled gardens can implement something like this at their whim.

replies(1): >>gabipu+Or
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51. Majrom+Sf[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:43:43
>>PaulHo+S7
> This is the right a private property owner (say the owner of a bar) has to kick you out.

Not exactly?

It's certainly not criminal law. Proof beyond reasonable doubt has no place here.

But it's also not exactly the relationship between a host and guest, where the guest has no rights save what the host grants. Website terms of service purport to be contracts, so there is a contractual rather than ex gratia basis for the relationship.

So, begin interpreting website terms of service as contracts of adhesion, and read in a duty for website operators to enforce those terms fairly, with a reasonable basis (on the balance of probabilities) for harmful decisions.

This isn't the current law, of course, but it's not hard to imagine the law reaching that place from here.

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52. _flux+Yf[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:44:11
>>AlfeG+58
Well it would still be better, because it's at least documented what kind of activity will lead into that.
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53. _qulr+kg[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:46:24
>>Mister+fd
> Want to be treated like a person? You have to pay for that.

Andrew Spinks, the author of the linked tweet, was a business partner of Google's. That didn't save him.

replies(1): >>Mister+Ow
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54. ryanbr+Eg[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:47:50
>>nvahal+U8
What's stopping the next Google from doing the same? Providing poor justification for bans and removal from platforms is by no means limited to the big companies - it's endemic throughout tech - we just hear about Google and Facebook more because they're higher visibility and are considered more essential.
replies(2): >>zitter+9j >>geofft+en
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55. p410n3+Xh[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 13:54:22
>>gibspa+na
Thats kinda what the PayPal support told me when I asked why half of my in-store payments via Google Pay get rejected.

Most were payments of about 2€ in the same store next to work.

Whatever I dont use it anymore

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56. Concep+7j[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:00:01
>>VLM+ca
Not just "can", but "will". And given how effectively these companies are using their size and power (and m-word) to crush the competition, it's long past time for some anti-trust action.
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57. zitter+9j[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:00:08
>>ryanbr+Eg
Dropping Google / Facebook is not just signing up with another service. You could self host your own email and just quit Facebook entirely.
replies(3): >>falcol+Vr >>newswa+hs >>whimsi+DI
58. michae+jj[view] [source] 2021-02-08 14:01:08
>>_qulr+(OP)
This is in part what the GDPR mandates - that companies provide reasoning for how an automatic process works and also that there is a means to dispute that (Section 4 / Article 22) https://www.varonis.com/blog/gdpr-requirements-list-in-plain...
replies(1): >>conrad+Yo
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59. pietro+mj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:01:24
>>vonwoo+tc
> The libertarian in me wants to believe that reputation is enough to make business act in the interests of the consumers and that personal responsibility would prevent customers from acting in their best interests: but we all know this is not true.

And that's also why monopolies and giant corporations can and will always form in the current economic system. Crony capitalism is not a bug, it's a feature.

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60. Medite+Qj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:03:27
>>PaulHo+G9
There is speculation that Google will ban sideloading in the near future, too. That is, it will extend its Advanced Protection model to mass-market Android. Then, sideloading will only be possible for that tiny minority of nerds like us who know how to use ADB and install an .apk over the command line.
replies(1): >>badjea+ww
61. prepen+nm[view] [source] 2021-02-08 14:15:22
>>_qulr+(OP)
You know it’s funny that lots of the basic functions of business with consumers (eg, ability to return items) were set and codified in the US as the Uniform Commercial Code [0] that was established in 1952. Before then it was wild and variable.

What’s really interesting is that it seems like of hacker-like in how it was implemented. It was published as a guide and then states passed laws to implement.

Reminds me of a de facto standard that is then implemented by vendors.

I suppose we could start up some form of Uniform Consumer Commercial Code (UC3) that set up practices that are good that could then be passed by states.

I shudder to think through all the arguments about how it would specify some “don’t be evil on social cause X” that it almost smarts my conspiracy brain that the “corporations” started this trend to bikeshed/scissor statement society so they can’t make meaningful economic and commercial policy.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Commercial_Code

replies(1): >>Spooky+Kz
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62. geofft+en[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:20:28
>>ryanbr+Eg
Antitrust regulation.

Seriously, the only reason Google is unaccountable is its scale. Otherwise "Google but with customer support" would be an obvious market opportunity. And the only reason losing your Google account is so impactful is that it controls everything from access to apps on your phone to your email to your calendar to being able to chat with friends. It's theoretically possible to vote with your wallet against Google, but far harder than against, say, Chick-fil-A, which means no boycott gets further than an HN comment.

No startup can compete with Google for those services because Google can artificially offer them for free, and for very high quality, because it's all funded by their advertising business. (Not to mention that a startup would have to "do things that don't scale" and offer real customer support... which also costs money.)

It's not a fair market at that point - you can't say Google is surviving because they offer the best value to customers, simply because the value is so disconnected from the service being offered. And in the other direction, potential customers like me who mostly avoid Google are still "paying" for it in that we're still seeing (and being tracked by) Google ads.

Every incentive mechanism behind the underlying assumptions of a market-based economy - that companies that provide more value are more likely to succeed in the market - is completely broken when you allow trusts like Alphabet to exist.

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63. Yizahi+Qn[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:22:55
>>comeon+W9
So those evil politicians will do what? Force corporations to indiscriminately ban arbitrary people without possibility of appeal? Oh, wait a minute...
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64. newswa+Ro[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:26:55
>>nvahal+U8
> It is possible to drop Google and Facebook.

Its also possible to live without electricity and running water. This disproportionate power model doesn't work there because some people implemented regulations on them. I am beginning to suspect we need similar laws for this.

replies(2): >>nvahal+So1 >>vkou+Nr1
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65. conrad+Yo[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:27:17
>>michae+jj
But then ... https://twitter.com/Cleroth/status/1348036873885806596
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66. vaduz+7p[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:28:03
>>greatp+K7
> It's the same in France and I think most of EU as the highest french court ruled that forced arbitration was against EU law.

For consumers or businesses? Not being nitpicky here: I am not familiar with the French ruling, so I would genuinely want to know - as regulations tend to differ (businesses, even single sole trader ones, do not enjoy consumer protections). Not really relevant for the Terraria dev as it is his personal account that is banned, from the sound of it - but important.

replies(4): >>greatp+Fq >>ohgodp+CS >>Semaph+5R2 >>himinl+8l3
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67. greatp+Fq[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:34:14
>>vaduz+7p
As a consumer, every time the clause is not specifically negotiated, it is considered "abusive" and void (for businesses it may be different). If as a consumer you negotiate a contract with an arbitration clause it will be enforceable however if it is a generic clause in the terms& condition it will not.
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68. gabipu+Or[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:39:52
>>Majrom+Ne
> The "spammer" can only pretend to be 10 million different people because e-mail is free. Paying a tenth of a penny per e-mail has been one of those long-standing impossible anti-spam measures, but walled gardens can implement something like this at their whim.

Maybe. A few problems here:

1. payments come with privacy concerns, unless maybe you're talking about zero-knowledge-based blockchains, but we're a LONG way from such functionality being widespread

2. $0.001/email is actually very reasonable for an attacker; they'd probably gladly pay even up to $1 or more, depending on their exact needs, especially if that comes with an elevated privileges account

3. all of this is easily defeated by fanouts. E.g. if they sign up with bob@gmail.com and then are able to use bob+1@gmail.com, bob+2@gmail.com etc. to sign up for a different service, this defeats the purpose

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69. falcol+Vr[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:40:14
>>zitter+9j
> You could self host your own email

You can. I might be able to (there’s a lot of crap around spam filtering and SPF that I’d have to fight with).

My mother, father, sister, cousins, nieces and nephews? Not a chance in hell.

replies(1): >>FlownS+Bv
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70. newswa+hs[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:41:56
>>zitter+9j
That is a very, very limited scope for Google/Facebook. Almost to the point of me suspecting you are strawmanning it. In fact, google/facebook is so endemic to our infrastructure that you can literally delete you google account. Get it scrubbed from the internet, they will still track you. Identify you. And show you ads. If you try to block their services, some pages stop functioning. It is on the verge of impossible to escape them
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71. gabipu+ks[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:42:13
>>ethbr0+y9
privacy, online safety, no false positives

Pick two.

Different companies do different trade-offs. The optimal solution depends on how the internet community weighs each individual axis

replies(1): >>PixyMi+gy
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72. KMag+Hs[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:43:55
>>Hamuko+t
I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that U.S. courts have found that suing is a right that can't be waived by contract. Certainly an agreement to enter arbitration can be introduced as evidence against you in a a lawsuit, but any decent lawyer should be able to prevent an arbitration agreement from getting your lawsuit thrown out.
replies(2): >>thgawa+hN >>CPLX+0V
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73. BlueTe+Zs[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:44:42
>>gibspa+na
Some government decisions are indirectly forbidden from using black box "algorithms" because they are obligated by law to explain (on demand) the steps that the algorithm took to reach its decision. Maybe something like this should also apply to some private companies ?
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74. BlueTe+Ct[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:47:18
>>ethbr0+zd
It's different for Huawei's app store ?
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75. FlownS+Bv[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:55:43
>>falcol+Vr
The only people who recommend self-hosting email are ones that haven't tried it.

We have an admin who spends a good 40% of his workweek doing just our email servers. They are a massive PITA.

replies(2): >>gowld+VD >>ryandr+kg1
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76. _qulr+Vv[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:56:37
>>gabipu+C8
> E.g. if a spammer can pretend they're 10 million different people, and each of those "people" requests an explanation, the whole system grinds to a halt.

Again, it's not a "request".

If spam detection and account suspension can be automated, then suspension notifications can also be automated.

I'm not sure I understand where the 10 million number is coming from. Are you suggesting that 1 spammer can create 10 million accounts on your system (which appears to be Facebook)?

Regardless, no spammer has the time to get on the phone and personally dispute 10 million account suspensions — disputes which are unlikely to succeed if there is good evidence — so I'm not sure how the system grinds to a halt.

replies(1): >>gabipu+HD
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77. mschus+0w[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:56:55
>>anthon+Z
> Just think about the army of "Facebook content moderators" who were a popular topic on HN recently due to the concerns over their mental health.

Hire them directly instead of via labor farms, pay them an actual living wage, give them full health benefits, and hire enough of them to prevent overload.

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78. badjea+ww[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 14:59:26
>>Medite+Qj
Well, and Huawei users.
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79. Mister+Ow[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:00:50
>>_qulr+kg
Partner is not a customer. They don't care about any human on their platform because their platform is not designed to care about humans, only exploit them.
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80. KMag+Gx[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:05:03
>>sam_go+z9
About a year ago, I started migrating to a vanity domain, currently hosted at Google, for this reason. If I get locked out of Google, I lose my history, but at least I can move to another provider and avoid being locked out of my life for the indefinite future.
replies(1): >>thw0rt+O7k
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81. PixyMi+gy[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:06:57
>>gabipu+ks
Two would be amazing. One would be nice. Currently we get zero.
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82. Spooky+Kz[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:11:53
>>prepen+nm
The problem with this sort of thing is that because it's interstate commerce, states usually do not have standing to regulate effectively.

The Federal government struggles to implement new regulatory authority because of political challenges. Various groups of stakeholders will declare any such regulation an infringement on free speech (ie. "The constitution gives me the right to sell fake penis pills to fund my radical political agenda!"), biased against marginalized minority or cultural groups ("My marginalized constituency of blind, alcoholic yak herders have a religious prohibition against reading contracts"), or a unfair mandate restraint of trade ("The Chamber of Meme Commerce believes that this rule will cost 10,000,000 jobs in the meme industry and kill puppies."), etc.

replies(4): >>R0b0t1+8I >>ISL+7J >>thauma+BY >>prepen+991
83. hertzr+nC[view] [source] 2021-02-08 15:22:28
>>_qulr+(OP)
I think we’re in a post consumer lawsuit era. Almost every terms of service on earth requires arbitration, or else absolves the vendor of any liability whatsoever
replies(1): >>gowld+zD
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84. gowld+zD[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:27:34
>>hertzr+nC
Arbitration isn't so bad. It still costs the company every time they have to deal with a case. Mass/automated arbitration claims can turn the tables, and lawsuits can be filled to challenge the neutrality of arbitrators.
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85. gabipu+HD[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:27:58
>>_qulr+Vv
> How many innocents have to get caught in the crossfire before we start protecting them?

> Again, it's not a "request" [..] suspension notifications can also be automated.

Can you clarify what you mean by "protecting" them? I'm not sure suspension notifications qualify as meaningful protection

replies(1): >>_qulr+tG
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86. gowld+VD[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:29:09
>>FlownS+Bv
No, also people who host themselves and enjoy the hobby time and don't understand how the general public lives.
replies(1): >>FlownS+1V
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87. _qulr+tG[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:40:27
>>gabipu+HD
This was specified in my original comment: "At the very least, companies must be legally required to present you in writing with the so-called violation of terms they're accusing you of, evidence of the violation, and a phone # or other immediate contact so that you can dispute the accusations." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26063313

Except for the part where someone has to answer phone calls, it could be automated if the account suspension itself is automated.

I'll also point out my later comment: "I'm not saying that companies shouldn't be able to suspend accounts temporarily. I'm simply saying that there needs to be a way to get your account unsuspended if you're innocent. The way it "works" now is that innocent consumers are without any recourse whatsoever." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26063399

And to forestall any replies that providing information to suspended accounts would help the spammers, I've already responded to that point: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26063660

Temporary account suspensions that you can quickly reverse on appeal are annoying but could be justified to fight abuse, as long as they don't happen too often. On the other hand, indefinite account suspensions that are impossible to reverse, such as the case of Andrew Spinks of Terraria, are simply indefensible, there's no justification whatsoever for that.

replies(1): >>gabipu+eI
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88. whimsi+KH[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:46:00
>>nvahal+U8
Oh yeah, far more easy than the government taking regulatory action is coordinating a massive consumer choice boycott.

Sometimes, it is so abundantly clear to me that this site is full of former teenage libertarians who grew up and still haven't shed all of those ideals.

replies(2): >>Negiti+Mf1 >>nvahal+Ap1
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89. R0b0t1+8I[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:47:55
>>Spooky+Kz
If it was sold to a resident in some state online currently that resident can sue in the local courts. The business is considered to operate in all states.

The alternative is all suits under ~$75k(?) don't get heard because they don't meet the requirements for federal court, which obviously can't be right.

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90. gabipu+eI[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:48:17
>>_qulr+tG
> I'm not saying that companies shouldn't be able to suspend accounts temporarily. I'm simply saying that there needs to be a way to get your account unsuspended if you're innocent. The way it "works" now is that innocent consumers are without any recourse whatsoever.

This is absolutely spot on, with the caveat that you do need to disaggregate from accounts to people, which is the hard problem. Having people call a phone number is definitely not going to work as a way of achieving this disaggregation. I'm pretty sure I could create a system to bring that call center to a halt with fairly minimal cost in less than a week of coding.

As an attacker, you can also hire people in call centers to make phone calls at scale for you.

replies(1): >>_qulr+3N
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91. whimsi+DI[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:49:57
>>zitter+9j
OK, you can lead your "resistance" to big tech your way.

Meanwhile, I'll be pushing my representative for regulatory action.

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92. ISL+7J[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 15:52:18
>>Spooky+Kz
I suspect that the major tech providers are so pervasive that the impacts of account-locking span all party lines.
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93. _qulr+3N[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 16:09:52
>>gabipu+eI
> As an attacker, you can also hire people in call centers to make phone calls at scale for you.

I think we may be talking about different things? I was just talking about a scaling problem of providing legal notifications of account suspensions and providing a means on getting them unsuspended. I wasn't talking about DoS attacks.

Lots of companies have call centers, so I'm not sure what you're envisioning here, or what financial gain there would be for spammers to DoS the call center. After all, their accounts are already getting suspended by the algorithms, regardless of whether innocent consumers have any appeal to this, and DoSing the call center won't help spammers get their accounts unsuspended.

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94. thgawa+hN[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 16:11:10
>>KMag+Hs
You are 99.5% wrong. See Federal Arbitration Act and ATT v Concepcion.
replies(1): >>KMag+Zl2
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95. throwa+IO[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 16:17:15
>>ethbr0+y9
Self-sovereign identities (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sovereign_identity) are one attempt to address this issue.
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96. ohgodp+CS[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 16:34:21
>>vaduz+7p
Forced arbitration is against French law. Google cannot force you to go to a specific company for arbitration (that, conveniently enough, happens to always rule in their favor). It has to be explicitly negotiated between the two parties. This also holds true for companies. It has to be explicitly negotatied.
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97. CPLX+0V[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 16:43:33
>>KMag+Hs
That's not an accurate description of current consumer arbitration precedent in the US.
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98. FlownS+1V[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 16:43:34
>>gowld+VD
I'm one of those people, generally, but even I'm not signing up to host an email server. Screw that.
99. arrose+zW[view] [source] 2021-02-08 16:50:21
>>_qulr+(OP)
> It's painfully clear at this point that we need a consumer "bill of rights" to protect us from these giant tech companies.

Nope. That gives players like Google a platform to negotiate from now and in the future, and it won't curb abuses long term. These abuses are a symptom of economic concentration and a lack of competitive markets. The only resolution guaranteed to work is to break up these companies down to smaller parts until they no longer act like quasi-governments.

replies(1): >>_qulr+RX
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100. _qulr+RX[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 16:56:07
>>arrose+zW
> The only resolution guaranteed to work is to break up these companies down to smaller parts until they no longer act like quasi-governments.

Why not both?

A consumer bill of rights and breaking up Google are not mutually exclusive. Consumer protection laws protect consumers from all companies big and small, present and future. Breaking up Google won't do anything about the "next Google".

It's a bit strange to think that antitrust is a long-term solution when the successful antitrust case against Microsoft didn't prevent Google, Facebook, and Apple from arising.

replies(1): >>arrose+F11
101. maclur+0Y[view] [source] 2021-02-08 16:56:49
>>_qulr+(OP)
Its not fair when you have to get attention on twitter before getting issues like this resolved. Some of us don't use twitter for one thing
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102. thauma+BY[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 16:59:44
>>Spooky+Kz
> Various groups of stakeholders will declare any such regulation an infringement on free speech (ie. "The constitution gives me the right to sell fake penis pills to fund my radical political agenda!")

This is just an awful example. There is not a free speech right to pay for your own speech by committing crimes, and nobody claims or would claim that there is. Similarly, you don't see the argument made that vendors enjoy the constitutional right to sell fake pills. What spammers want to do, and what anti-spammers want to stop them from doing, is to advertise real pills, and yes, there are extensive free speech implications there.

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103. arrose+F11[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 17:13:11
>>_qulr+RX
It's a bit strange to think a nebulous "consumer bill of rights" is going to protect you when the actual Bill of Rights is routinely violated. We have utility designations for instances where it makes sense, and even then you see customer abuses. Forcing companies to focus on competition and survival is the best way to make sure they treat their customers well. Abuses pop up when customers don't have the choice to take their business elsewhere.

> Breaking up Google won't do anything about the "next Google".

The same regulator that has the power to break them up also has the power to prevent the next Google. Good pricing regulations have the power to prevent the next Google. These are solved problems, we just don't enforce the laws on the books or modernize them appropriately.

> It's a bit strange to think that antitrust is a long-term solution when the successful antitrust case against Microsoft didn't prevent Google, Facebook, and Apple from arising.

That's probably because it wasn't successful in the classical sense. Geroge Bush won the 2000 election and settled the case before it went to judgment. If it had, and Microsoft had been forced to break up, we may not be in the current situation.

replies(1): >>_qulr+461
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104. _qulr+461[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 17:34:56
>>arrose+F11
> It's a bit strange to think a nebulous "consumer bill of rights" is going to protect you when the actual Bill of Rights is routinely violated.

The Bill of Rights were written over 200 years ago and could really use a rewrite for modern times, but passing constitutional amendments is much more difficult than passing laws. Moreover, the issues involved in the Bill of Rights are much more contentious, whereas pretty much everyone is annoyed by Google's complete lack of customer service.

I also find this statement to be somewhat at odds with your later statement: "These are solved problems, we just don't enforce the laws on the books or modernize them appropriately." How does your Bill of Rights analogy not also apply to your own argument about antitrust?

I would say that consumer protection laws that can be applied in an ongoing, daily basis are better than antitrust laws, because antitrust enforcement is a monumental task that at best can take years to achieve, only comes into play when problems have already gotten out of hand, and may not have the desired results, as you mentioned. Better to try to prevent some of the problems from occurring in the first place, with laws that apply to all companies without exception, instead of trying to just go after a few of the current biggest troublemakers.

And Google is far from the only company who pulls this crap, so at the very least we would need multiple successful antitrust actions.

Right to repair is a similar issue. So, breaking up Google and Facebook might help somewhat with the account suspension issue, but then we also have to break up Apple. And John Deere! And other companies. Or... we could pass right to repair laws. Antitrust feels a lot like Whac-A-Mole to me. Not that antitrust is bad, but you knock down one BigCo, and another arises. Why not more directly address the abuses caused by the BigCos?

replies(1): >>arrose+6b1
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105. prepen+991[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 17:49:12
>>Spooky+Kz
This was addressed in the UCC and is pretty simple actually as each state implements laws to saw who has jurisdiction and how to handle.

It also bypasses the federal government in that the code is established by some big council and implemented in (most) states.

That’s why when I live in Missouri and buy something from a vendor in New York, they still have to accept returns, issue refunds, provide for basic warranties, etc. and if I have problems I can easily get remediation in state courts.

There’s 50+ years of where this works ok. Not perfect and lots of room for improvement. But better than the current shitshow that exists like this article describes. If we had the minimum level of legal structure, it would be so helpful.

Because of UCC, if I give away a product for free, I have to support it through its commercial life. So if I hand out knives, for free, and they explode after 20 years, I must still support it. Even if they come with a form that users have to click that says “I will not sue PrependCo if these free knives explode.”

Google’s free (and even non-free) services are causing harm to people and aren’t being supported.

replies(1): >>MockOb+Gb1
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106. arrose+6b1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 18:01:14
>>_qulr+461
The abuse is economic concentration, everything else is treating symptoms. Antitrust, price regulations, fair competition laws and the like are the remedy to that abuse. Obviously we would need to do more than one action - I'm talking about restructuring the economy. It's only whack-a-mole if you go one at a time. Knock-off a few big ones and the rest will settle to get the best deal possible.

I don't believe we are as impotent as your response would imply, and we are certainly capable of putting a stop to these abuses and enforcing laws that create fair, competitive markets. I agree it's a longer term project, but it's the only one that will actually solve the issues. It's a losing proposition to focus our energy on short term fixes.

replies(1): >>_qulr+Yd1
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107. MockOb+Gb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 18:04:40
>>prepen+991
> Because of UCC, if I give away a product for free, I have to support it through its commercial life. So if I hand out knives, for free, and they explode after 20 years, I must still support it. Even if they come with a form that users have to click that says “I will not sue PrependCo if these free knives explode.”

Why does the UCC covers free knives, but not paid Google services?

replies(1): >>Spooky+Rw1
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108. _qulr+Yd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 18:15:20
>>arrose+6b1
> I don't believe we are as impotent as your response would imply

I don't believe we're impotent, which is why I'm suggesting new laws such as a consumer bill of rights and right to repair. I think that antitrust is actually too little too late in addressing problems. After all, you can't take anti-trust action against a company until it's already a trust. ;-)

> It's a losing proposition to focus our energy on short term fixes.

I think we disagree about which is the long term fix and which is the short term fix. I personally consider antitrust action against individual companies to be a short term fix, whereas permanent universal consumer protection laws are a long term fix.

replies(1): >>arrose+Bh1
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109. Person+He1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 18:18:58
>>a_pass+5d
I know HN doesn't like these types of comments, but I genuinely laughed.
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110. Negiti+Mf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 18:24:28
>>whimsi+KH
You are on a site called hacker news. “Former teenage libertarian” is practically in the name.
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111. ryandr+kg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 18:27:37
>>FlownS+Bv
I have self-hosted E-mail for myself and my family for years, probably close to a decade now--I lost count. It's a learning curve at first but once it's dialed in and working, there's really nothing to touch. Occasionally, like once every two years or so, I find my spam filter process crashed and failed to relaunch or something, causing delivery delays.
replies(1): >>gorbac+jo1
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112. arrose+Bh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 18:32:45
>>_qulr+Yd1
> After all, you can't take anti-trust action against a company until it's already a trust. ;-)

That's not what the laws on the books say. It's a colloquial term, and nobody like a pedant.

> I personally consider antitrust action against individual companies to be a short term fix, whereas permanent universal consumer protection laws are a long term fix.

Ralph Nader said the same thing in the 60s and 70s. Consumer protection laws have been used to encourage economic concentration and the abuses of labor and society that always come with it. The American government has never succeeded at compliance regulation — it gets weakened and corrupted, and we always wind up getting the worst version of laissez-faire economics as a result.

Further, how would you make it "permanent"? Constitutional amendments are a non-starter right now, and Congress can't pass laws that have 80%+ popular support. You know what is permanent? Court-ordered break-ups under the Clayton Act.

replies(1): >>_qulr+Dl1
113. pavon+Si1[view] [source] 2021-02-08 18:40:45
>>_qulr+(OP)
Agreed. We generally allow companies to refuse service for nearly any reason, and in most cases this is a good policy. However, there are exceptions to that rule. One extreme are utilities which as both monopolies and essential services are required to do business with nearly any paying customer, and have strict rules processes about shutting of service for lack of payment. Residential rentals are another example. They don't hold a monopoly, but are an essential service, and as such they can generally choose who to do business with (although not quite as freely as your average business), but have strict legal processes they have to follow regarding evictions.

I think there are online business who are essential enough that some consumer protections are applicable. Very few reach the level of monopoly that utilities have in my mind, and even those it isn't clear to me that they are "natural" monopoly like utilities, and as such other antitrust approaches may be more beneficial.

However, I think there are a number of competitive, yet essential services online that deserve a legal protections regarding service termination. Identity providers absolutely fall in that category IMO - it is unacceptable for example for Facebook to lock your account in a manner that prevents you from not only using their services but every other third-party service which you authenticate using "Logon with Facebook". I think email is another that rises to this level. At a minimum email providers should be required to forward mail for a fixed period of time after choosing to stop doing business with a customer.

replies(1): >>saurik+pE1
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114. _qulr+Dl1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 18:55:13
>>arrose+Bh1
> That's not what the laws on the books say. It's a colloquial term, and nobody like a pedant.

It was merely a play on words, but the point was that antitrust only kicks in when significant market power is involved, some kind of restraint on competition, whereas other laws protect consumers from abuses by companies of all sizes, even the smallest "mom and pop shop" companies.

> Ralph Nader said the same thing in the 60s and 70s. Consumer protection laws have been used to encourage economic concentration and the abuses of labor and society that always come with it. The American government has never succeeded at compliance regulation — it gets weakened and corrupted, and we always wind up getting the worst version of laissez-faire economics as a result.

Again, I find it strange how you think one set of laws can't possibly be intelligently and usefully applied by the government, while at the same time thinking another set of laws can, i.e., antitrust.

> Further, how would you make it "permanent"?

What do you mean? Laws are permanent by default, unless the legislators write an expiration date into the law.

> You know what is permanent? Court-ordered break-ups under the Clayton Act.

Tell that to AT&T. ;-)

replies(1): >>arrose+AL1
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115. gorbac+jo1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 19:06:14
>>ryandr+kg1
"...but once it's dialed in and working, there's really nothing to touch"

...until your upstream changes something.

replies(1): >>falcol+Du1
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116. nvahal+So1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 19:08:48
>>newswa+Ro
Yes, but Google and Facebook are not public utilities, nor should they be.
replies(1): >>newswa+Vr1
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117. nvahal+Ap1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 19:12:11
>>whimsi+KH
If all of the latest Facebook news can get my family to start questioning their usage/dependency on Facebook—I think it's fairly possible.

There have been a number of really great projects coming through HN and other sites recently that are aimed at solving some problem that people on Facebook have: photo sharing, event planning, etc.

Discoverability is really the only problem left.

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118. vkou+Nr1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 19:22:37
>>newswa+Ro
If you are equating a world without Facebook to a world without running water, you need to spend a week camping, where you leave your phone at home.

You'll very quickly discover why they are not at all alike.

replies(1): >>newswa+fs1
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119. newswa+Vr1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 19:23:08
>>nvahal+So1
Why not? The qualification being for public utility should be "is this basic infrastructure humans need to live now?". And the answer is yes. Facebook controls most of the big public speaking forums and google controls so much and in so many spaces that it would be foolish for me to even try listing.

I hope in america public utilities are not only controlled by the government. Because where I am from public utilities can be publicly or privately controlled. As long as they are all playing by the same rules many private companies have made lots of money providing public utilities.

I don't see the impediment here.

replies(2): >>Emendo+Xy1 >>jsmith+Az1
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120. newswa+fs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 19:24:14
>>vkou+Nr1
Oh if you think running water is important, try growing up in a desert. You will quickly realize still water is enough. WTF is this line of logic?
replies(1): >>vkou+pO1
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121. falcol+Du1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 19:36:13
>>gorbac+jo1
Or an opaque third party (i.e. a spam list) puts you on their lists.
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122. Spooky+Rw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 19:47:22
>>MockOb+Gb1
Because Google One, for example, is a service governed by a contract which details performance expectations.
replies(1): >>MockOb+vA1
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123. jlmb+By1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 19:56:37
>>anthon+Z
But surely it’s possible to use methods other than what currently seems to be the first and only solution: “your account has been banned, bye”.

For example, if an automated system thinks an account is sending spam, enforcing a (very low) outgoing email rate limit would be a much more reasonable first step.

124. jsmith+Fy1[view] [source] 2021-02-08 19:56:46
>>_qulr+(OP)
The EU recently proposed The Digital Services Act, which is a DCMA like legislation (with both copyright infringement and other illegal content like CP as targets).

Part of that draft law pretty clearly states that companies must have a proper appeal process for banned accounts. This would apply to "decisions taken by the online platform on the ground that the information provided by the recipients is illegal content or incompatible with its terms and conditions", which in practice covers basically all bans except for Age restriction or non-payment based bans.

They must provide details of what part of the Terms of Service they claim you violated: "where the decision is based on the alleged incompatibility of the information with the terms and conditions of the provider, a reference to the contractual ground relied on and explanations as to why the information is considered to be incompatible with that ground".

If the internal appeals process fails, the consumer can take the company to online binding arbitration (with the consumer's choice of accredited arbitrators certified by the member state). The company always pays its own costs in the process, and must reimburse the user's costs if the company loses.

replies(1): >>smartt+OZ1
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125. Emendo+Xy1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 19:58:48
>>newswa+Vr1
In reality, there is no impediment to designating Google as a public utility other than the elected representatives making it so.
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126. jsmith+Az1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 20:01:49
>>newswa+Vr1
> I hope in america public utilities are not only controlled by the government. Because where I am from public utilities can be publicly or privately controlled. As long as they are all playing by the same rules many private companies have made lots of money providing public utilities.

Water/Sewage and Trash are typically run by the city/county government, although it is common for the actual work to be handled by a contracted company.

Power, natural gas, phone, and most others is almost always a private company.

replies(1): >>timidg+i12
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127. MockOb+vA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 20:05:55
>>Spooky+Rw1
So the UCC is only the default, which covers goods/services without their own custom contracts?
replies(1): >>Spooky+952
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128. saurik+pE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 20:29:12
>>pavon+Si1
I think there also needs to be a law that, once you have accepted responsibility for storing someone else's data, that you can't delete it "on a whim" without offering some minimum retention period ok your data. As an example: a storage facility is allowed to stop doing business with me, but they legally can't just destroy all my stuff on a moment's notice... we have laws for minimum retention periods.
replies(1): >>zerd+Ep2
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129. arrose+AL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 21:05:45
>>_qulr+Dl1
> Again, I find it strange how you think one set of laws can't possibly be intelligently and usefully applied by the government, while at the same time thinking another set of laws can, i.e., antitrust.

It's not strange if you look at historical priors. The US Government has frequently succeeded at regulation that involves rulemaking, investigation, and prosecuting abuses. The same government has failed to achieve its' goals any time it tried compliance based regulation. Sure, both are subject to regulatory capture, but I've only seen the one model succeed.

I'm generally against these types of "consumer protection" movements explicitly because they target the smallest "mom and pop shop" companies. Consumer protection costs wind up driving those smaller businesses out and promote corporate concentration. Once you have that, the corporations are writing the rules, and the laws stop protecting customers (see: Boeing 737MAX).

> Tell that to AT&T.

ATT, Verizon or T-Sprint? If they don't answer I can leave a messaging on their answering machine using free long distance, or send an email using a modem. Just a few things that resulted from that breakup...

And we're only back down to three because of a (going on) five decade streak of executives that favor laissez-faire economics, which kind of proves my point that it's a good solution. Look at how much effort it took to undo that breakup, and they still haven't gotten back to the Ma Bell days.

replies(1): >>_qulr+ZN1
130. arendt+nN1[view] [source] 2021-02-08 21:14:21
>>_qulr+(OP)
> It's painfully clear at this point that we need a consumer "bill of rights" to protect us from these giant tech companies.

It isn't the only solution to this problem. Not using their products is another one. However, in some sectors (e.g. smartphones) it is next to impossible to not use their products, especially because they are build on centralized schemes. But regulating those things is probably harder than a consumer rights bill. But the downside is probably, that a consumer rights bill would not just affect the few large corporations, but many smaller ones too.

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131. _qulr+ZN1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 21:16:41
>>arrose+AL1
> we're only back down to three because of a (going on) five decade streak of executives that favor laissez-faire economics, which kind of proves my point that it's a good solution

I think that kind of disproves your point, but maybe we should just stop there. :-)

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132. vkou+pO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 21:19:04
>>newswa+fs1
1. I'm not sure you understand what running water means. It's not water that flows down a river, it's water that comes from a tap. The whole point of running water is that a utility delivers it to your home, regardless of whether or not your town is in a rain forest, or the middle of a desert.

2. You'll die in three days without water. You'll probably be healthier if you spent three days without Facebook.

3. I can't collect water for myself where I live. I suppose I could walk down to the lake, and manually bring up a few buckets of water, but it won't be safe for me to drink. I suppose I can also go buy bottled water, at a ~million-percent markup. There is no economic alternative for me to get water, other than through the water pipes laid to my apartment, by my water utility. I am a completely captive customer for my utility. My water utility has monopoly control of special-purpose one-of-a-kind infrastructure that is used to deliver water to my apartment. That is why my utility is regulated.

4. Unlike with my tap water, there are plenty of functioning alternatives to... Whatever it is that Facebook does for me. If Facebook shut down tomorrow, my life would be mildly disrupted for a week or two, and then would go on with little change.

On the hierarchy of needs, we have air at the top, followed closely by water, shelter, and food, followed at some distance by electricity, and way down the street, that we can barely make out, by grabbing a pair of binoculars, we will see 'Facebook'.

It's just not that important.

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133. smartt+OZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 22:17:34
>>jsmith+Fy1
> which in practice covers basically all bans except for Age restriction or non-payment based bans.

Google avoid this EU restriction by suspending accounts/app indefinitely instead of banning them.

You can see a Google employee explaining this here : https://github.com/moneytoo/Player/issues/37#issuecomment-76...

replies(1): >>izacus+542
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134. timidg+i12[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 22:24:45
>>jsmith+Az1
No traditional utility company does what Google has routinely shown to do as in the original post though. There's still a bill to pay and expectations of reasonable service (I assume if I just left my tap on and drew as just electricity as I could I'd eventually get some phone calls and massive bills) that allows these companies to be profitable.

Google isn't at the point it needs to be nationalized, but something needs to be done to limit the fallout that occurs when users are kicked off essential services with no recourse.

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135. izacus+542[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 22:38:50
>>smartt+OZ1
Claiming that "an indefinite suspension" is just a type of temporary suspension and different from a ban will have you laughed out of any actual court.
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136. Spooky+952[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-08 22:45:12
>>MockOb+vA1
All products have a warranty of merchantability defined by UCC. Basically goods need to be average/expected quality.

With services it’s a little different because there is no average unless the contract is missing performance terms. If you agree to a term of performance, then that is the obligation.

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137. KMag+Zl2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-09 00:34:03
>>thgawa+hN
Thanks. I stand corrected.
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138. wcoene+np2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-09 01:02:21
>>wcoene+n6
Meta: my comment above is being downvoted significantly. I'm not sure what I did to offend. There was a remark about the need for a paid option, and I pointed out that it already exists. I have no agenda here and was just sharing what I know.
replies(1): >>thw0rt+Y7k
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139. zerd+Ep2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-09 01:04:59
>>saurik+pE1
Also if you violate the storage facilities rules and they cancel the lease, they can't turn off the electricity at your house just because they happen to have the same parent company.
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140. Chris2+aq2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-09 01:10:18
>>anthon+Z
So just start charging for service, and keep a non-refundable deposit for spam/abuse.

Let every abuser requests those explanations, if the decision doesn't change, the money is still kept, which funds that service.

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141. Semaph+5R2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-09 05:43:22
>>vaduz+7p
I think in Germany it would be legal for businesses. B2B contracts allow most things that are illegal in a B2C context.
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142. himinl+8l3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-09 11:15:01
>>vaduz+7p
> For consumers or businesses?

For consumers. Businesses are considered to have both more (legal) resources to conduct deals as well as a need for more flexibility. However in this case this sounds like the account was personal, so even if it was used for business purposes, the deal was personal. In Europe (France here) typically the distinction is not in the use but in the contracting party.

A business is registered with tax authorities and has an identifying number, if you contract a service without such a number you're doing so personally so for such purposes you're a consumer and bound by consumer laws. Indeed, all registration forms for services ask you for that number and business address. Services that don't want to / can't be subject to consumer protection laws or are not allowed to sell to private individuals require that number and verify it. Services that allow both individuals and businesses ask for it and may treat you differently based on it.

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143. thw0rt+07k[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-15 08:55:48
>>nvahal+U8
The OP is about a personal Google account, with access to mail, etc. at stake, but it's also about a developer who was going to create content for their platform. Granted, Stadia is not exactly a make-or-break gatekeeper for publishing games, but that same dev account could well be used for Google Play Store, which controls about half of the mobile market. We've certainly seen plenty of those stories here -- app developer gets locked out, only recovers account / gets app un-banned by making enough noise to get attention.

IOW, it's "possible" for you or me to drop Google or Facebook, but for some lines of business, you're basically stuck working with them.

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144. thw0rt+O7k[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-15 09:01:15
>>KMag+Gx
Friendly reminder to anybody reading this with a Google account: it's not a perfect solution, but head over to Google Takeout and grab a dump of your account data while you're thinking of it. I did one last year, and at the same time reconfigured my phone camera roll to back up somewhere outside the Google ecosystem, so now all I'm missing is an up to date email mirror.
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145. thw0rt+Y7k[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-15 09:02:10
>>wcoene+np2
I suspect it might be because the OP is about getting your account locked out, and several commenters have said that even paid accounts lose access to human support when they're locked out, so it's not actually a solution.
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