zlacker

NYC passes POST Act, requiring police department to reveal surveillance tech

submitted by colawa+(OP) on 2020-06-20 20:05:28 | 324 points 91 comments
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replies(14): >>xfitm3+Ab >>SN7647+ae >>0xcde4+Gf >>dflock+eh >>school+Uh >>walter+Go >>Barrin+Dq >>akudha+cA >>WarOnP+tN >>Dicey8+3V >>blackr+y01 >>ncmncm+V51 >>geiche+X91 >>DataWo+tA1
1. xfitm3+Ab[view] [source] 2020-06-20 21:34:10
>>colawa+(OP)
This is fantastic! I hope other cities follow suit and the restoration of civil liberties continues.

> The NYPD’s use of DAS is not restricted to suspected criminals or terrorists, and the collected data is retained for upwards of years.

This is concerning, too. I'd like to see some sort of federal requirement prohibiting agencies from storing data including metadata for excessive periods of time. I don't know what a reasonable limit would be but it should probably be on the order of months.

2. SN7647+ae[view] [source] 2020-06-20 21:54:07
>>colawa+(OP)
Doesn't all surveillance require a warrant?
replies(5): >>0xcde4+Ee >>godzil+Ag >>loteck+Lw >>stjohn+dU >>syshum+K71
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3. 0xcde4+Ee[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:58:13
>>SN7647+ae
As I understand it (not a lawyer or law enforcement), 4A protections effectively only apply where either the search is of a space where the subject has a "reasonable expectation of privacy" or the police are actually handling the subject's property (e.g. attaching a GPS tracker to a vehicle).
4. 0xcde4+Gf[view] [source] 2020-06-20 22:06:27
>>colawa+(OP)
I'm probably behind the curve on this a bit, but in addition to surveillance infrastructure directly controlled by the police (which this bill seems to target), are they not also using third-party adtech to build profiles of "likely customers"? If not, will this convince them to start?
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5. godzil+Ag[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:13:24
>>SN7647+ae
For it to be admissible in court.

Most people can’t afford an attorney and end up taking a plea.

replies(1): >>gruez+Vp
6. dflock+eh[view] [source] 2020-06-20 22:17:25
>>colawa+(OP)
Or you could just not give them millions upon millions of dollars to buy all this military crap in the first place.
replies(2): >>shanem+oj >>Rebelg+Hl
7. school+Uh[view] [source] 2020-06-20 22:22:28
>>colawa+(OP)
There is something even MORE important to be released and that is the police training manuals and materials which the NYPD have been hiding from FOIL requests for over a decade now.

To all New Yorkers: You are currently NOT ENTITLED to see the methods and techniques taught at the NYPD academy.

Requests are being denied on these grounds: "Deniable records include records or portions thereof that: (e) are compiled for law enforcement purposes and which if disclosed would: iv. reveal criminal investigative techniques or procedures, except routine techniques and procedures;"

replies(3): >>auston+Pn >>square+mp >>dang+js
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8. shanem+oj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:34:18
>>dflock+eh
From this article it appears they can use private funding to purchase things without oversight.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/18/police-found...

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9. Rebelg+Hl[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:55:17
>>dflock+eh
You can do ALPR at a decent level with $100 of hardware. The cost of doing surveillance isn't necessarily going to be a lot
replies(1): >>geofft+Ko
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10. auston+Pn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:17:50
>>school+Uh
Hmm I'm not an expert but I just saw a project on HN the other day that listed the policies and procedures for a bunch of PDs?
replies(1): >>Bnshsy+8o
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11. Bnshsy+8o[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:20:40
>>auston+Pn
I’m curious about this, I tried searching but HN search isn’t great. Any chance of a link?
replies(1): >>auston+ip
12. walter+Go[view] [source] 2020-06-20 23:25:37
>>colawa+(OP)
Does this include Google's Sidewalk / CityBridge / LinkNYC kiosks (multiple sensors and cameras) partnership with NYC?

https://gizmodo.com/nycs-free-wifi-service-is-turning-into-a...

https://cryptome.org/2016/06/linknyc-spy-kiosks-installation...

https://theintercept.com/2020/05/08/andrew-cuomo-eric-schmid...

replies(1): >>rmrfst+m41
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13. geofft+Ko[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:25:56
>>Rebelg+Hl
Plus a good amount of technical know-how and ops work, which is only free if you're a hobbyist building a proof of concept. If you're the actual NYPD and you want it to work accurately and reliably in prod, you need budget for either in-house tech talent or a company that will do it for you.
replies(1): >>Rebelg+Xt
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14. auston+ip[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:33:59
>>Bnshsy+8o
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23546695
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15. square+mp[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:34:40
>>school+Uh
Very likely they're using military psychological training. The rules of engagement they adopt against citizens don't seem that different from those used by soldiers in enemy territory. The complete lack of empathy towards human life reminds of the depersonalizing of the enemy that helps soldiers remain efficient and detached while they slaughter their "targets". For that matter, even more important than the manuals are the speeches by their instructors; I would like to see the videos and what indoctrination techniques they use during training. A cop can't turn himself into 9/10 of a psychopath just by reading books. And of course I would push for mandatory drugs and steroids abuse tests for all of them.
replies(3): >>catalo+nr >>mtgp10+Mr >>metrok+nT
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16. gruez+Vp[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:43:05
>>godzil+Ag
Actually, there's a "good faith" (aka. "ignorance of the law") exception for cops. So even a lawyer might not be able to save you.

https://www.justia.com/criminal/procedure/search-and-seizure...

>A mistake of law by a police officer sometimes can trigger the exception. If an officer takes steps based on the existing interpretation of the law, but a court later rules that the law should be interpreted differently, they may be found to have acted in good faith.

replies(1): >>jdsull+xs
17. Barrin+Dq[view] [source] 2020-06-20 23:51:53
>>colawa+(OP)
Am I misunderstanding something here or does this imply that up until now the city of NYC did not have full access and transparency concerning the capacities of the NYPD?

How is this even a thing? I don't know much about the US political system but how is it that the police is not entirely subjected to civic government and why does a law need to be passed to control what the NYPD does?

replies(5): >>maxeri+As >>psycho+Ns >>bobthe+Vu >>runlev+Cv >>waheoo+bR
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18. catalo+nr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:57:45
>>square+mp
Virtually all American police departments are using at least some military psychology techniques. For instance the use of human silhouette targets at the gun range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing#The_problem_of_non-...

Examples of targets being marketed to law enforcement:

http://www.americantargetcompany.com/law_enforcement_targets...

https://www.amazon.com/law-enforcement-target/s?k=law+enforc...

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19. mtgp10+Mr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:02:18
>>square+mp
This post is at odds with the fact that the military teaches stricter rules of engagement than police forces. There may be a culture problem in the force but this post is hysteria.

Police deal with violent criminals who have no regard for police life; in fact often they are explicitly against police. They're going to learn techniques appropriate for dealing with such people. Some of those techniques will be violent and resemble "military" tactics, but that's only because the military also deals with violent adversaries.

replies(4): >>catalo+rs >>Taylor+Tt >>runawa+VI >>kelnos+8L
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20. dang+js[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:08:40
>>school+Uh
Please don't use uppercase for emphasis. If you want to emphasize a word or phrase, put asterisks around it and it will get italicized.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

replies(1): >>a13692+dz
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21. catalo+rs[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:10:57
>>mtgp10+Mr
> Background: Despite veterans' preference hiring policies by law enforcement agencies, no studies have examined the nature or effects of military service or deployments on health outcomes. This study will examine the effect of military veteran status and deployment history on law enforcement officer (LEO)-involved shootings.

> Methods: Ten years of data were extracted from Dallas Police Department records. LEOs who were involved in a shooting in the past 10 years were frequency matched on sex to LEOs never involved in a shooting. Military discharge records were examined to quantify veteran status and deployment(s). Multivariable logistic regression was used to estimate the effect of veteran status and deployment history on officer-involved shooting involvement.

> Results: Records were abstracted for 516 officers. In the adjusted models, veteran LEOs who were not deployed were significantly more likely to be involved in a shooting than non-veteran officers. Veterans with a deployment history were 2.9 times more likely to be in a shooting than non-veteran officers.

> Conclusions: Military veteran status, regardless of deployment history, is associated with increased odds of shootings among LEOs. Future studies should identify mechanisms that explain this relationship, and whether officers who experienced firsthand combat exposure experience greater odds of shooting involvement.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30281075/

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22. jdsull+xs[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:12:11
>>gruez+Vp
Your mainstream explanation isn't correct. This only applies when a court replaces an existing precedent - a relatively rare occurrence. Police shouldn't be expected to anticipate the court's change of heart ahead of time.
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23. maxeri+As[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:13:02
>>Barrin+Dq
There's likely some earlier law passed by the same body directing the NYPD to have a policy, or carry out an activity, without the specific requirement for the information.
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24. psycho+Ns[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:14:52
>>Barrin+Dq
Police have their hooks in every level of government. Police unions have very large coffers and money talks.
replies(1): >>nojito+Fu
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25. Taylor+Tt[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:29:33
>>mtgp10+Mr
I mean, I’ve been hearing a lot of cases where the police killed people who were definitely not “violent criminals who have no regard for police life”. Brianna Taylor’s boyfriend wasn’t a violent criminal when he fired at the police.

“ A defence attorney for Taylor’s boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, says he fired in self-defence because police did not announce themselves and that he believed they were breaking in to the home.”

The police did a no-knock raid unannounced on the wrong home, then shot EMT Brianna Taylor 8 times. Those violent techniques are at issue here. They seem to be violations of 5th and/or 14th amendment rights and clearly not appropriate.

https://lailasnews.com/international/brianna-taylor-death-br...

replies(2): >>square+ry >>6AA4FD+dH
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26. Rebelg+Xt[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:31:38
>>geofft+Ko
True. A city near me paid about $350k for a few dozen ALPR cameras at major intersections. Not a bad price for near total surveillance of every vehicle traveling in and out of town
replies(1): >>jacobu+HA
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27. nojito+Fu[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:40:44
>>psycho+Ns
This is never the case. The issue is almost always due to the costs of hosting and making available the data.

Look up the open justice initiative in California.

replies(2): >>syshum+nw >>dec0de+3I
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28. bobthe+Vu[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:43:36
>>Barrin+Dq
Generally speaking, the NYPD operates under the executive branch (the mayor) and the legislative branch (City Council) can declare whatever powers they want to oversee, but they do have to be explicitly declared first.

The separation of powers in NYC/NYS is very messy so this doesn't surprise me.

replies(1): >>thinki+Vb1
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29. runlev+Cv[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:54:26
>>Barrin+Dq
You can't scrutinize what you don't know about. So every bit of transparency has been hard-fought.

Take the NYPD's use of proprietary "predictive policing" algorithms to identify where a crime may occur and identify individuals who may be a perpetrator.

These algorithms have long been feared to express the biases of their input data. [1]

The NYPD has obstructed freedom of information requests at every turn. They wouldn't even release their correspondence with the vendor because it "would reveal trade secret information." [2]

If we can't examine it or even know how it's being used, it's significantly more difficult to scrutinize.

[1]: https://www.propublica.org/article/machine-bias-risk-assessm...

[2]: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/cour...

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30. syshum+nw[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 01:01:13
>>nojito+Fu
No the costs of hosting the data is not the reason they hide it.
replies(1): >>runawa+7I
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31. loteck+Lw[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 01:07:16
>>SN7647+ae
Mass surveillance certainly doesn't.
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32. square+ry[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 01:27:05
>>Taylor+Tt
Other reports also tell the cops weren't wearing uniforms, which in this case should exonerate the boyfriend of any guilt.
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33. a13692+dz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 01:35:28
>>dang+js
Tangentially to this, is there any way to view the actual raw text of a (arbitrary) HN post? Because there are no asterisks in your displayed text. Clearly the text exists, because 'edit' links work, but there doesn't seem to be any way to retrieve it from a post you can't edit.
replies(1): >>dang+7P1
34. akudha+cA[view] [source] 2020-06-21 01:47:32
>>colawa+(OP)
In the last few weeks many cities have passed laws to bring more transparency to police brutality.

This is a good step, but I am curious - how much are these laws enforceable? I was just reading that some Atlanta cops are not reporting to work - protest for the arrest of the cop who shot Rayshard Brooks. If that is the mentality, how much cooperation can we expect? Not talking about this particular NYC law, just in general.

replies(3): >>pmoric+sB >>amcoas+vH >>tomsch+HW
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35. jacobu+HA[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 01:53:52
>>Rebelg+Xt
How do you feel about that?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=SECu1fR0dWE&t...

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36. pmoric+sB[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 02:02:46
>>akudha+cA
Two thoughts. Fire the ones that refuse to comply. The unemployment rate is 15% right now. Second you have a law enforcement agency that is separate from the one with the problem enforce the rules. That could be a state police agency that polices the local police or a special investigative part of the government that ensures compliance.
replies(2): >>icelan+lD >>downer+sO1
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37. icelan+lD[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 02:26:33
>>pmoric+sB
This already is a thing in places (internal affairs) and it never goes well or efficiently. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes and all. Reducing their power/influence is the only sure bet.
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38. 6AA4FD+dH[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:18:56
>>Taylor+Tt
Just a heads up I think her name is spelled Breonna[0]. Not a knock against the rest of your post, I like it.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Breonna_Taylor

replies(1): >>Taylor+Q31
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39. amcoas+vH[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:22:40
>>akudha+cA
The cops that stay home because police are being held accountable for their brutality should stay home permanently -- without a job.
replies(1): >>Fnoord+I31
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40. dec0de+3I[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:31:49
>>nojito+Fu
If that were really the case they would just make you go in person and pay for a print out
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41. runawa+7I[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:32:15
>>syshum+nw
What other possible reasons could they have other than hosting costs? /sarcasm

You’d think we as a society figured out hosting costs ...

Any quote on what the cost of hosting is and if it can be crowd funded? Technically speaking, their whole institution is crowd funded so I don’t know where they get the autonomy to decide jack shit.

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42. runawa+VI[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:43:45
>>mtgp10+Mr
This is a hot take, and I’ll readily admit to it:

I’m sucker for true crime, so I watch a lot of interrogations. There are very specific tactics that are used to psychologically build up egos, barrage an ego, frame things in different ways that absolve the perpetrator, standard god cop / bad cop, and so forth. Murder police do this with murder suspects. The thing is, murder police are super trained to deal with murders.

I think street beat cops are similar to script kiddies. They don’t understand infrastructure and networking, and mostly know code monkey usage of scripts. On small enough targets, you can start to believe you are king shit doing whatever you are doing.

Until it goes too far, and the big boys show up and assess you. That’s when we find out your script kiddie cops have little to no training on de-escalation, have little to no understanding of the community, think establishing authority and show of force in any situation is professional, think defending their ego in situations has a place, think bringing respect to the uniform in a literal ongoing situation that could turn sideways has a place, and so on.

That’s what we’re finding out, they are mostly amateurs. They are not super trained to deal with their job. Guy clearly drunk and asleep in a car? First time you’ve ever dealt with this? Ended in a fatality, eh?

Lots of training there going over that basic scenario ...

replies(1): >>metrok+mW
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43. kelnos+8L[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 04:17:42
>>mtgp10+Mr
The problem is that these violent criminals are in the extreme minority; while certainly police need to be trained to handle them, they also need to be trained to handle the other 99% of the people they will encounter, who are not violent. But they aren't, so they revert to treating everyone as if they were a violent criminal fractions of a second away from attacking them. That's why we have the problem of police brutality in the first place.
replies(1): >>metrok+OU
44. WarOnP+tN[view] [source] 2020-06-21 04:49:22
>>colawa+(OP)
I'm glad that NYC's dystopic Domain Awareness system gets some coverage here.

However it's curious that Microsoft isn't mentioned at all in the article - even though every inch of this abomination is entirely Microsoft's creation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Awareness_System

replies(1): >>mcshay+tm4
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45. waheoo+bR[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 05:33:46
>>Barrin+Dq
Contrary to what people love to say, the police dont work for the tax payer. They work for the tax collector.
replies(1): >>teddyh+w01
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46. metrok+nT[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 06:10:28
>>square+mp
You really believe police academies indoctrinate simply for the purpose of indoctrinating, and that police want and consciously will themselves to become psychopaths? What do you believe is the purpose of the indoctrination for the sake of indoctrination? Why would someone want to turn themselves into a psychopath?
replies(1): >>vertex+K91
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47. stjohn+dU[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 06:23:53
>>SN7647+ae
On public streets and property? Outside your home in plain view (from the street)? no.
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48. metrok+OU[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 06:35:00
>>kelnos+8L
The majority of victims of police brutality (at least deaths by police, of course there are other forms of police brutality but killings by police is what the current conversation is about) are violent criminals. Of the ~1000 people killed by police in 2019 538 were armed with a gun, 159 with a knife, 60 with a vehicle, and 63 with another weapon. 41 were unarmed, 23 had a toy weapon, and 49 is unknown. [0] The majority of people that cops interact with overall are not violent criminals, but the majority of people subject to the type of police brutality which is overwhelmingly controlling the conversation (i.e. killings by police) are violent criminals.

[0] https://www.statista.com/chart/5211/us-citizens-killed-by-po...

replies(3): >>guerri+uW >>vertex+d21 >>kelnos+BE9
49. Dicey8+3V[view] [source] 2020-06-21 06:38:51
>>colawa+(OP)
Thinking on the other side of the fence, I wonder if certain vendors will now refuse to sell to NYPD, as this mandatory disclosure would likely cause issues with the NDA's and End Use conditions of sale..?

Im sure some companies wouldn't be to excited on having their tech publicly exposed.

replies(1): >>vertex+O21
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50. metrok+mW[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 07:07:21
>>runawa+VI
A taser is a deadly weapon under Georgia law, so the officer was in fact following his training by responding with lethal force when the taser was pointed at him by Rayshard.

> Earlier this month, Howard charged six Atlanta police officers with using excessive force in pulling two college students out of a car during a protest. In justifying charges of aggravated assault against some of the officers, Howard said a Taser is considered a deadly weapon under Georgia law. [0]

Rayshard was also breaking Georgia DUI law by drinking in his parked car. He also likely drove there drunk, so investigating was ethical. Drunk driving kills over 10,000 people every year.

> Similarly, if the keys are in the ignition but the car is not yet turned on, this could be charged as a parked car DUI. Additionally, if the person is in the car, in the driver's seat, with the keys in their hand, but not in the ignition, this can be charged as a parked car DUI. [1]

[0] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/17/raysha...

[1] https://www.duigeorgia.com/parked-car-dui

replies(2): >>metrok+F91 >>k33n+aa1
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51. guerri+uW[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 07:09:14
>>metrok+OU
This is what they claimed. These aren't objectively verifiable facts and as people have been learning lately, they constantly lie about such things.
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52. tomsch+HW[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 07:13:07
>>akudha+cA
The cops that walked out regarding the charges for the RB shooting did so because it seems the DA is contradicting Georgia law, and his own statements from a few weeks ago.

A taser is considered a deadly weapon under GA law and the DA had charged other officers a few weeks ago with using a taser as a deadly weapon. Now he is saying its not a deadly weapon when stolen and used against them, and didn't warrant deadly force to be used in return. He also didn't even wait for the Georgia Bureau of Investigation's report with the facts on the shooting.

That's why the police walked out. Form all account's I have seen so far, that officer seems to have followed that department's use of force continuum guidelines correctly and GA law but was still charged for seemingly political points by a DA who is up for re-election. You're not going to get cooperation when cops feel that they have done everything according to policy/state law and can still get charged because an angry mob demands it.

Here is a breakdown from a former police officer who dives into it a little further: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QEnGkIbzA

replies(2): >>chroma+Ym1 >>mindsl+zP1
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53. teddyh+w01[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 08:25:01
>>waheoo+bR
No. “Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people:

First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.

Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.

The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.

https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html

In other words, the police, like essentially every other organization, is trying to preserve itself and expand itself. It only aligns with the wishes of another organization, e.g. “the tax collector”, as far as it serves their own goals, either because it furthers their goals directly, or if the other organization is in a position to threaten their own goals of preservation and expansion.

replies(1): >>waheoo+Cw1
54. blackr+y01[view] [source] 2020-06-21 08:25:09
>>colawa+(OP)
How is this even a thing?

Why do civilian lawmakers even need to pass laws for this?

The police should be reporting their technologies, their techniques, and their standard operating processes to a civilian oversight board.

Otherwise, the police are operating above the law.

Well, we already know that they do. But still, the police department must fall under legal civilian control.

Otherwise, you will end up with a militarized police system, that is accountable to no one but themselves. They end up becoming the foxes that guards the henhouse.

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55. vertex+d21[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 08:52:47
>>metrok+OU
"They have a gun", the statement, is different from "they have a gun", the fact. There's no actual oversight to these reports - the closest we have is the Washington Post performing the intensive work of collecting reports from individual police departments, but they're unable to verify the reports.

In other countries like England & Wales, when a police officer seriously injures or kills someone, there's a formal investigation by the Independent Office for Police Conduct, an independent body at a centralised Government level with powers equivalent to a police officer for matters they investigate. They also usually provide public reports, for example, https://policeconduct.gov.uk/recommendations/police-response.... (Also note the limited use of force - two shots, one of which struck - and immediate care.) It's still not perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than what the US does.

replies(2): >>metrok+391 >>catalo+hE1
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56. vertex+O21[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 09:01:17
>>Dicey8+3V
Honestly? Good. If we can't verify how the tech is used, there's no possible oversight of the police.
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57. Fnoord+I31[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 09:12:06
>>amcoas+vH
We need some kind of way to get rid of the bad crops within police departments. This is a world-wide problem. I believe the issue is (lack of) accountability. Police officers are not held accountable for their actions. Which is a problem if their actions are severe (e.g. murder, but also racism).

However, the question is whether the reason you mention is a valid one. I believe a better one is that police officers stay home when they are supposed to work. In which kind of profession do you not get fired when you refuse to (show up on) work? Especially when there is unrest and violence on the streets, you are more in demand; your services are needed even more. In such times, staying home is akin to being a deserter in time of war.

I do not understand how one gets away with that. How do they? What is their leverage?

replies(1): >>amcoas+Pb1
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58. Taylor+Q31[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 09:14:32
>>6AA4FD+dH
Thank you, that was my mistake. My comment is too old for me to edit but I will make sure to get this right next time. Solidarity!
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59. rmrfst+m41[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 09:21:07
>>walter+Go
And more...

“This is a partnership, not a contractual relationship.” [1]

"Because of partner relations and legal authorities, SSO Corporate sites are often controlled by the partner, who filters the communications before sending to NSA." [2]

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/us/politics/att-helped-ns...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/08/15/us/documents....

60. ncmncm+V51[view] [source] 2020-06-21 09:43:51
>>colawa+(OP)
Let's see someone prosecuted for not revealing one.
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61. syshum+K71[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:14:38
>>SN7647+ae
Welcome to the world of "Parallel Construction" which is a "legal" way of ignoring the constitution
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62. metrok+391[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:35:23
>>vertex+d21
Being unable to verify the reports does in no way make them false. There must be some actual evidence of widespread falsification of reports. Many of these killings have actual recorded evidence of the criminal shooting or drawing a firearm, such as the video a month or two back of a black man fleeing from police in a park. Currently your claim that armed suspects shot by police were not actually armed is simply a theory which has no evidence to back it up. How many of these cases do you believe are framed by the police? 20%? 40%? 80%? All of them?

All officer involved shootings are investigated, but you take issue with the investigation being internal. If an independent investigation office was created, would you accept the results if the results still were the same? What group, would you accept results from in independent office from as not compromised or part of a pro-police conspiracy? Certainly not any Trump appointed office, no matter how seemingly neutral.

replies(1): >>vertex+Ea1
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63. metrok+F91[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:43:56
>>metrok+mW
Anyone like to refute this instead of just downvoting? I don't believe anything in this comment is incorrect, if I am false please correct whichever fact is incorrect.
replies(1): >>runawa+yJ1
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64. vertex+K91[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:45:27
>>metrok+nT
The argument is that every millisecond that they don't shoot matters, so training themselves to shoot instinctively and to ensure the person is dead when they do shoot is the solution. Part of the problem is that the techniques they use to train this involve dehumanisation of targets - it's really hard to get someone to kill an actual person, so they train that response on things that don't look like people, with the hope that it transfers over.
65. geiche+X91[view] [source] 2020-06-21 10:47:37
>>colawa+(OP)
Anyone else read this with The Wire (TV show) theme in their head? https://youtu.be/K3rZgs3dudI
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66. k33n+aa1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:49:57
>>metrok+mW
The political hacks have made their way to HN. Downvoting facts they disagree with.
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67. vertex+Ea1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:58:21
>>metrok+391
The question is what happens to the people who kill without that being the appropriate response. What happened to the police officers who killed those 41 unarmed people? Is there a detailed public report I can read about what happened, including any disciplinary or management measures that were taken? How about the others - who's ensuring that it was an appropriate and proportionate response to the danger? Can I read their report? Is there a body which makes recommendations to the police on how to ensure that <things we don't want> are less likely to happen? And the mere presence of a weapon doesn't always make it an appropriate response, especially in a country where there is a legal right to own a weapon. We're well aware than internal investigations don't work, and that external investigations only sort of work.

Also, circling back - even if the police only killed violent people, my personal experience is that their interactions with the community are pretty much always to threaten violence - except for their attempts to indoctrinate children into accepting their presence. I've seen police break ribs and knock non-violent, merely uncooperative, people unconscious, then fail to provide healthcare. They've harassed and threatened people attempting to film them, including taking details and arresting people who refuse to provide them. There was a spate where they arrested random people on my street for no stated reason, then released them just before they had to explain to a judge why they were arrested. Just because people don't die most of the time doesn't make them unaffected.

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68. amcoas+Pb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 11:18:32
>>Fnoord+I31
I like to think they're just making our job easier in rooting out the "bad apples" who are more interested in protecting their tribal brethren no matter their behavior than the citizens they swore to protect.
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69. thinki+Vb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 11:20:40
>>bobthe+Vu
Can the mayor make the police reveal things? Is the mayor elected by the population?
replies(2): >>bobbyl+me1 >>bobthe+F32
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70. bobbyl+me1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 11:57:28
>>thinki+Vb1
The mayor is elected but in practice the NYPD operates with an absurd amount of autonomy
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71. chroma+Ym1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 13:59:53
>>tomsch+HW
Thank you for this factual well reasoned reply. This case seems different than other recent cases to be sure.
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72. waheoo+Cw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 15:49:52
>>teddyh+w01
Cool, TIL. But I literally meant the tax collector pays their salary. Not the tax payer, who, on average, costs the state more than they pay in taxes.
73. DataWo+tA1[view] [source] 2020-06-21 16:17:58
>>colawa+(OP)
We have way too many lawyers.
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74. catalo+hE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 16:44:30
>>vertex+d21
I'm skeptical of widespread falsification of weapon possession, however I do think it deserves mention that "they had a weapon" is not synonymous with "they were doing something wrong." Certainly not in America.

No-knock night raids should probably be considered a violation of the 2nd Amendment, among other things. Kenneth Walker was well within his rights to shoot the plainclothes cops breaking into his home in the middle of the night.

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75. runawa+yJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 17:19:59
>>metrok+F91
> He also likely drove there drunk, so investigating was ethical.

This can’t be proved. I’ve poured a few shots into a drink and had it with my meal at fast food places plenty of times. He could have been drinking inside Wendy’s, easily. He could have gotten drunk, couldn’t walk to his sister’s place, decided to sleep some of it off in the car.

It’s hard to argue if there is a rejection of the need for nuance and that situations fall on a spectrum.

The law is the law until we see it a little bit. If RB had priors and he was about to get a parked dui, that could be real jail time again, and a drunken person could easily react drunkenly.

Do you as a cop factor in the fragility of the situation or do you exact the law word for word, regardless of how much more dangerous the situation will get.

The RB situation is extremely complicated. I feel bad for the cops and don’t think they deserve felony charges. However, I do think the police department needs more rigorous training on dealing with common scenarios at a higher level.

I also don’t think RB needed to go to be cuffed that night, and needed a place to sleep it off like he suggested.

It’s sad all around.

replies(1): >>random+Hb3
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76. downer+sO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 17:52:23
>>pmoric+sB
You can't just hatch experienced law enforcement officers in a week (or a year). And putting inexperienced officers in early can make things far worse, from a police brutality perspective.

Beyond that, though, painting an entire profession as monsters is simply wrong.

Be careful what you wish for--it appears that an upswing in resignations is happening now.

replies(1): >>pmoric+1Q2
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77. dang+7P1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 17:58:27
>>a13692+dz
Sorry, but I don't believe there is.
replies(1): >>a13692+472
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78. mindsl+zP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 18:00:33
>>tomsch+HW
I agree that this case is debatable, but you left out the fact that RB was running away when shot. The officer did not shoot in self-defense.

Also we would expect any regular citizen to be arrested and charged in this situation. That's precisely what courts are for - to sort out whether the details are strong enough to warrant conviction. Police should not have some informal parallel justice system outside of the courts - that's the whole point.

replies(1): >>tomsch+BR1
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79. tomsch+BR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 18:14:09
>>mindsl+zP1
The officer did shoot in self defense. Rayshard shot the taser as he was running away. The officer when seeing the taser being pointed at him immediately dropped his own and drew his sidearm and fired. By that time (under half a second) the taser had fired at him and RB had turned back around with the taser still in his hand. Taser X2s have two shots instead of one, so he was still armed with a deadly weapon according to GA law. He showed utter disregard for the life of the officer whom he fired at and escalated the situation to deadly force. He escalated the situation from a simple and cordial DUI arrest to deadly force because he didn’t want to go back to jail for a parole violation.

From everything I have seen the cop was justified by law. Still a shitty situation but this smells of politics by the DA.

Edit: forgot to mention that Tennessee vs Garner established that officers have justification to use deadly force to stop someone fleeing who is a deadly danger to the public.

replies(1): >>mindsl+sT1
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80. mindsl+sT1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 18:26:00
>>tomsch+BR1
Continuing to chase and shooting RB in the back contradicts the claim of self defense. At any time, the officer could have stopped the immediate chase and ended the confrontation. This would have been the prudent thing to do, given that they had his ID (and his car), and the two officers hadn't recovered from being overwhelmed.

This is a good example of why responding officers shouldn't carry firearms or even tasers on their person - they're too quick to keep escalating like they see on TV. If a suspect violently escapes arrest, then send in a larger armed crew with a deliberate plan.

re your addition: Seems like a decision that enables bad policing. Nothing about the situation makes it seem like RB was actually a danger to the public, but the police will push that justification all day long to legitimize what was essentially a personal ego escalation.

replies(1): >>tomsch+162
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81. bobthe+F32[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 19:34:31
>>thinki+Vb1
The elected mayor can, if they want to. Or at least they can start a fight.

The police union, however, is a very organized labor union, and the current mayor was brought to heel even though he was elected on the most anti-police platform of his first election.

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82. tomsch+162[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 19:54:05
>>mindsl+sT1
You’re arguing the morality not the legality. I’m arguing the latter, specifically related to the DA in this case bringing up charges against and officer where by law he seems more than covered. That’s it.
replies(1): >>mindsl+ym2
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83. a13692+472[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 20:01:48
>>dang+7P1
Pity. Thanks for the confirmation that I wasn't missing something obvious, at least.
replies(1): >>dang+2d4
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84. mindsl+ym2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 22:26:30
>>tomsch+162
The morality is important, as we're talking about whether to prosecute and legal arguments can be made both ways. As I said, I do not agree that a person stealing a taser constitutes a deadly danger to the public. Even if the taser is considered a deadly weapon, there was no demonstrated intent to attack random people.

As this is not a clear cut case of justifiable homicide, the right thing to do is let a court sort it out. If the courts are too slow and expensive, welcome to another broken aspect of the criminal justice system that is in dire need of reform!

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85. pmoric+1Q2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-22 06:18:30
>>downer+sO1
"painting an entire profession as monsters is simply wrong."

Asking people to act to professional standards and holding them to those standards isn't painting them as monsters nor does it seem unreasonable.

replies(1): >>downer+Z74
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86. random+Hb3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-22 11:20:29
>>runawa+yJ1
It's quite clear you're confidently commenting without having watched any of the multiple videos available.

He was passed out in his car in the drive thru lane. Did you even watch any of the videos? He was not cognizant for most of the video.

> I also don’t think RB needed to go to be cuffed that night, and needed a place to sleep it off like he suggested.

Riiiight...

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87. downer+Z74[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-22 17:05:30
>>pmoric+1Q2
No, it's not. But there is a lot of such painting going on, and you can't solve one evil by committing a second.
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88. dang+2d4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-22 17:26:58
>>a13692+472
If you need something like that in specific cases you can always email hn@ycombinator.com.
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89. mcshay+tm4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-22 18:09:09
>>WarOnP+tN
That "system" seems to be bleeding into every American street. What do you make of the white square facing right at the top right of the image? What is that one "sensing"?
replies(1): >>mleonh+jX5
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90. mleonh+jX5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 03:39:31
>>mcshay+tm4
I would guess that it's an antenna.
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91. kelnos+BE9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-24 03:55:10
>>metrok+OU
Given US gun culture, I would not immediately classify "has a gun/knife" as "violent criminal". And even for people who could potentially be violent, how many of those police shootings involved a suspect that had actually drawn their weapon and/or was behaving aggressively with it? And if we're talking about self-reporting by cops, I don't think we should take their assessment of the situation at their word without some sort of corroboration.

Regardless, even if the police killed some 1000 armed people during a year, so what? 1000 is certainly a tiny sub-1% fraction of total interactions. If anything, you're only supporting my assertion that the vast majority of people the police have to deal with are non-violent and can be dealt with using non-leathal force, or little to no force at all.

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