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1. Barrin+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-20 23:51:53
Am I misunderstanding something here or does this imply that up until now the city of NYC did not have full access and transparency concerning the capacities of the NYPD?

How is this even a thing? I don't know much about the US political system but how is it that the police is not entirely subjected to civic government and why does a law need to be passed to control what the NYPD does?

replies(5): >>maxeri+X1 >>psycho+a2 >>bobthe+i4 >>runlev+Z4 >>waheoo+yq
2. maxeri+X1[view] [source] 2020-06-21 00:13:02
>>Barrin+(OP)
There's likely some earlier law passed by the same body directing the NYPD to have a policy, or carry out an activity, without the specific requirement for the information.
3. psycho+a2[view] [source] 2020-06-21 00:14:52
>>Barrin+(OP)
Police have their hooks in every level of government. Police unions have very large coffers and money talks.
replies(1): >>nojito+24
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4. nojito+24[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:40:44
>>psycho+a2
This is never the case. The issue is almost always due to the costs of hosting and making available the data.

Look up the open justice initiative in California.

replies(2): >>syshum+K5 >>dec0de+qh
5. bobthe+i4[view] [source] 2020-06-21 00:43:36
>>Barrin+(OP)
Generally speaking, the NYPD operates under the executive branch (the mayor) and the legislative branch (City Council) can declare whatever powers they want to oversee, but they do have to be explicitly declared first.

The separation of powers in NYC/NYS is very messy so this doesn't surprise me.

replies(1): >>thinki+iL
6. runlev+Z4[view] [source] 2020-06-21 00:54:26
>>Barrin+(OP)
You can't scrutinize what you don't know about. So every bit of transparency has been hard-fought.

Take the NYPD's use of proprietary "predictive policing" algorithms to identify where a crime may occur and identify individuals who may be a perpetrator.

These algorithms have long been feared to express the biases of their input data. [1]

The NYPD has obstructed freedom of information requests at every turn. They wouldn't even release their correspondence with the vendor because it "would reveal trade secret information." [2]

If we can't examine it or even know how it's being used, it's significantly more difficult to scrutinize.

[1]: https://www.propublica.org/article/machine-bias-risk-assessm...

[2]: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/cour...

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7. syshum+K5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 01:01:13
>>nojito+24
No the costs of hosting the data is not the reason they hide it.
replies(1): >>runawa+uh
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8. dec0de+qh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:31:49
>>nojito+24
If that were really the case they would just make you go in person and pay for a print out
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9. runawa+uh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:32:15
>>syshum+K5
What other possible reasons could they have other than hosting costs? /sarcasm

You’d think we as a society figured out hosting costs ...

Any quote on what the cost of hosting is and if it can be crowd funded? Technically speaking, their whole institution is crowd funded so I don’t know where they get the autonomy to decide jack shit.

10. waheoo+yq[view] [source] 2020-06-21 05:33:46
>>Barrin+(OP)
Contrary to what people love to say, the police dont work for the tax payer. They work for the tax collector.
replies(1): >>teddyh+Tz
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11. teddyh+Tz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 08:25:01
>>waheoo+yq
No. “Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people:

First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.

Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.

The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.

https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html

In other words, the police, like essentially every other organization, is trying to preserve itself and expand itself. It only aligns with the wishes of another organization, e.g. “the tax collector”, as far as it serves their own goals, either because it furthers their goals directly, or if the other organization is in a position to threaten their own goals of preservation and expansion.

replies(1): >>waheoo+Z51
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12. thinki+iL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 11:20:40
>>bobthe+i4
Can the mayor make the police reveal things? Is the mayor elected by the population?
replies(2): >>bobbyl+JN >>bobthe+2D1
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13. bobbyl+JN[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 11:57:28
>>thinki+iL
The mayor is elected but in practice the NYPD operates with an absurd amount of autonomy
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14. waheoo+Z51[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 15:49:52
>>teddyh+Tz
Cool, TIL. But I literally meant the tax collector pays their salary. Not the tax payer, who, on average, costs the state more than they pay in taxes.
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15. bobthe+2D1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 19:34:31
>>thinki+iL
The elected mayor can, if they want to. Or at least they can start a fight.

The police union, however, is a very organized labor union, and the current mayor was brought to heel even though he was elected on the most anti-police platform of his first election.

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