zlacker

[parent] [thread] 32 comments
1. school+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-20 22:22:28
There is something even MORE important to be released and that is the police training manuals and materials which the NYPD have been hiding from FOIL requests for over a decade now.

To all New Yorkers: You are currently NOT ENTITLED to see the methods and techniques taught at the NYPD academy.

Requests are being denied on these grounds: "Deniable records include records or portions thereof that: (e) are compiled for law enforcement purposes and which if disclosed would: iv. reveal criminal investigative techniques or procedures, except routine techniques and procedures;"

replies(3): >>auston+V5 >>square+s7 >>dang+pa
2. auston+V5[view] [source] 2020-06-20 23:17:50
>>school+(OP)
Hmm I'm not an expert but I just saw a project on HN the other day that listed the policies and procedures for a bunch of PDs?
replies(1): >>Bnshsy+e6
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3. Bnshsy+e6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:20:40
>>auston+V5
I’m curious about this, I tried searching but HN search isn’t great. Any chance of a link?
replies(1): >>auston+o7
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4. auston+o7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:33:59
>>Bnshsy+e6
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23546695
5. square+s7[view] [source] 2020-06-20 23:34:40
>>school+(OP)
Very likely they're using military psychological training. The rules of engagement they adopt against citizens don't seem that different from those used by soldiers in enemy territory. The complete lack of empathy towards human life reminds of the depersonalizing of the enemy that helps soldiers remain efficient and detached while they slaughter their "targets". For that matter, even more important than the manuals are the speeches by their instructors; I would like to see the videos and what indoctrination techniques they use during training. A cop can't turn himself into 9/10 of a psychopath just by reading books. And of course I would push for mandatory drugs and steroids abuse tests for all of them.
replies(3): >>catalo+t9 >>mtgp10+S9 >>metrok+tB
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6. catalo+t9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:57:45
>>square+s7
Virtually all American police departments are using at least some military psychology techniques. For instance the use of human silhouette targets at the gun range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing#The_problem_of_non-...

Examples of targets being marketed to law enforcement:

http://www.americantargetcompany.com/law_enforcement_targets...

https://www.amazon.com/law-enforcement-target/s?k=law+enforc...

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7. mtgp10+S9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:02:18
>>square+s7
This post is at odds with the fact that the military teaches stricter rules of engagement than police forces. There may be a culture problem in the force but this post is hysteria.

Police deal with violent criminals who have no regard for police life; in fact often they are explicitly against police. They're going to learn techniques appropriate for dealing with such people. Some of those techniques will be violent and resemble "military" tactics, but that's only because the military also deals with violent adversaries.

replies(4): >>catalo+xa >>Taylor+Zb >>runawa+1r >>kelnos+et
8. dang+pa[view] [source] 2020-06-21 00:08:40
>>school+(OP)
Please don't use uppercase for emphasis. If you want to emphasize a word or phrase, put asterisks around it and it will get italicized.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

replies(1): >>a13692+jh
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9. catalo+xa[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:10:57
>>mtgp10+S9
> Background: Despite veterans' preference hiring policies by law enforcement agencies, no studies have examined the nature or effects of military service or deployments on health outcomes. This study will examine the effect of military veteran status and deployment history on law enforcement officer (LEO)-involved shootings.

> Methods: Ten years of data were extracted from Dallas Police Department records. LEOs who were involved in a shooting in the past 10 years were frequency matched on sex to LEOs never involved in a shooting. Military discharge records were examined to quantify veteran status and deployment(s). Multivariable logistic regression was used to estimate the effect of veteran status and deployment history on officer-involved shooting involvement.

> Results: Records were abstracted for 516 officers. In the adjusted models, veteran LEOs who were not deployed were significantly more likely to be involved in a shooting than non-veteran officers. Veterans with a deployment history were 2.9 times more likely to be in a shooting than non-veteran officers.

> Conclusions: Military veteran status, regardless of deployment history, is associated with increased odds of shootings among LEOs. Future studies should identify mechanisms that explain this relationship, and whether officers who experienced firsthand combat exposure experience greater odds of shooting involvement.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30281075/

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10. Taylor+Zb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:29:33
>>mtgp10+S9
I mean, I’ve been hearing a lot of cases where the police killed people who were definitely not “violent criminals who have no regard for police life”. Brianna Taylor’s boyfriend wasn’t a violent criminal when he fired at the police.

“ A defence attorney for Taylor’s boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, says he fired in self-defence because police did not announce themselves and that he believed they were breaking in to the home.”

The police did a no-knock raid unannounced on the wrong home, then shot EMT Brianna Taylor 8 times. Those violent techniques are at issue here. They seem to be violations of 5th and/or 14th amendment rights and clearly not appropriate.

https://lailasnews.com/international/brianna-taylor-death-br...

replies(2): >>square+xg >>6AA4FD+jp
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11. square+xg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 01:27:05
>>Taylor+Zb
Other reports also tell the cops weren't wearing uniforms, which in this case should exonerate the boyfriend of any guilt.
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12. a13692+jh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 01:35:28
>>dang+pa
Tangentially to this, is there any way to view the actual raw text of a (arbitrary) HN post? Because there are no asterisks in your displayed text. Clearly the text exists, because 'edit' links work, but there doesn't seem to be any way to retrieve it from a post you can't edit.
replies(1): >>dang+dx1
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13. 6AA4FD+jp[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:18:56
>>Taylor+Zb
Just a heads up I think her name is spelled Breonna[0]. Not a knock against the rest of your post, I like it.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Breonna_Taylor

replies(1): >>Taylor+WL
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14. runawa+1r[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:43:45
>>mtgp10+S9
This is a hot take, and I’ll readily admit to it:

I’m sucker for true crime, so I watch a lot of interrogations. There are very specific tactics that are used to psychologically build up egos, barrage an ego, frame things in different ways that absolve the perpetrator, standard god cop / bad cop, and so forth. Murder police do this with murder suspects. The thing is, murder police are super trained to deal with murders.

I think street beat cops are similar to script kiddies. They don’t understand infrastructure and networking, and mostly know code monkey usage of scripts. On small enough targets, you can start to believe you are king shit doing whatever you are doing.

Until it goes too far, and the big boys show up and assess you. That’s when we find out your script kiddie cops have little to no training on de-escalation, have little to no understanding of the community, think establishing authority and show of force in any situation is professional, think defending their ego in situations has a place, think bringing respect to the uniform in a literal ongoing situation that could turn sideways has a place, and so on.

That’s what we’re finding out, they are mostly amateurs. They are not super trained to deal with their job. Guy clearly drunk and asleep in a car? First time you’ve ever dealt with this? Ended in a fatality, eh?

Lots of training there going over that basic scenario ...

replies(1): >>metrok+sE
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15. kelnos+et[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 04:17:42
>>mtgp10+S9
The problem is that these violent criminals are in the extreme minority; while certainly police need to be trained to handle them, they also need to be trained to handle the other 99% of the people they will encounter, who are not violent. But they aren't, so they revert to treating everyone as if they were a violent criminal fractions of a second away from attacking them. That's why we have the problem of police brutality in the first place.
replies(1): >>metrok+UC
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16. metrok+tB[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 06:10:28
>>square+s7
You really believe police academies indoctrinate simply for the purpose of indoctrinating, and that police want and consciously will themselves to become psychopaths? What do you believe is the purpose of the indoctrination for the sake of indoctrination? Why would someone want to turn themselves into a psychopath?
replies(1): >>vertex+QR
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17. metrok+UC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 06:35:00
>>kelnos+et
The majority of victims of police brutality (at least deaths by police, of course there are other forms of police brutality but killings by police is what the current conversation is about) are violent criminals. Of the ~1000 people killed by police in 2019 538 were armed with a gun, 159 with a knife, 60 with a vehicle, and 63 with another weapon. 41 were unarmed, 23 had a toy weapon, and 49 is unknown. [0] The majority of people that cops interact with overall are not violent criminals, but the majority of people subject to the type of police brutality which is overwhelmingly controlling the conversation (i.e. killings by police) are violent criminals.

[0] https://www.statista.com/chart/5211/us-citizens-killed-by-po...

replies(3): >>guerri+AE >>vertex+jK >>kelnos+Hm9
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18. metrok+sE[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 07:07:21
>>runawa+1r
A taser is a deadly weapon under Georgia law, so the officer was in fact following his training by responding with lethal force when the taser was pointed at him by Rayshard.

> Earlier this month, Howard charged six Atlanta police officers with using excessive force in pulling two college students out of a car during a protest. In justifying charges of aggravated assault against some of the officers, Howard said a Taser is considered a deadly weapon under Georgia law. [0]

Rayshard was also breaking Georgia DUI law by drinking in his parked car. He also likely drove there drunk, so investigating was ethical. Drunk driving kills over 10,000 people every year.

> Similarly, if the keys are in the ignition but the car is not yet turned on, this could be charged as a parked car DUI. Additionally, if the person is in the car, in the driver's seat, with the keys in their hand, but not in the ignition, this can be charged as a parked car DUI. [1]

[0] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/17/raysha...

[1] https://www.duigeorgia.com/parked-car-dui

replies(2): >>metrok+LR >>k33n+gS
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19. guerri+AE[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 07:09:14
>>metrok+UC
This is what they claimed. These aren't objectively verifiable facts and as people have been learning lately, they constantly lie about such things.
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20. vertex+jK[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 08:52:47
>>metrok+UC
"They have a gun", the statement, is different from "they have a gun", the fact. There's no actual oversight to these reports - the closest we have is the Washington Post performing the intensive work of collecting reports from individual police departments, but they're unable to verify the reports.

In other countries like England & Wales, when a police officer seriously injures or kills someone, there's a formal investigation by the Independent Office for Police Conduct, an independent body at a centralised Government level with powers equivalent to a police officer for matters they investigate. They also usually provide public reports, for example, https://policeconduct.gov.uk/recommendations/police-response.... (Also note the limited use of force - two shots, one of which struck - and immediate care.) It's still not perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than what the US does.

replies(2): >>metrok+9R >>catalo+nm1
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21. Taylor+WL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 09:14:32
>>6AA4FD+jp
Thank you, that was my mistake. My comment is too old for me to edit but I will make sure to get this right next time. Solidarity!
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22. metrok+9R[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:35:23
>>vertex+jK
Being unable to verify the reports does in no way make them false. There must be some actual evidence of widespread falsification of reports. Many of these killings have actual recorded evidence of the criminal shooting or drawing a firearm, such as the video a month or two back of a black man fleeing from police in a park. Currently your claim that armed suspects shot by police were not actually armed is simply a theory which has no evidence to back it up. How many of these cases do you believe are framed by the police? 20%? 40%? 80%? All of them?

All officer involved shootings are investigated, but you take issue with the investigation being internal. If an independent investigation office was created, would you accept the results if the results still were the same? What group, would you accept results from in independent office from as not compromised or part of a pro-police conspiracy? Certainly not any Trump appointed office, no matter how seemingly neutral.

replies(1): >>vertex+KS
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23. metrok+LR[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:43:56
>>metrok+sE
Anyone like to refute this instead of just downvoting? I don't believe anything in this comment is incorrect, if I am false please correct whichever fact is incorrect.
replies(1): >>runawa+Er1
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24. vertex+QR[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:45:27
>>metrok+tB
The argument is that every millisecond that they don't shoot matters, so training themselves to shoot instinctively and to ensure the person is dead when they do shoot is the solution. Part of the problem is that the techniques they use to train this involve dehumanisation of targets - it's really hard to get someone to kill an actual person, so they train that response on things that don't look like people, with the hope that it transfers over.
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25. k33n+gS[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:49:57
>>metrok+sE
The political hacks have made their way to HN. Downvoting facts they disagree with.
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26. vertex+KS[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:58:21
>>metrok+9R
The question is what happens to the people who kill without that being the appropriate response. What happened to the police officers who killed those 41 unarmed people? Is there a detailed public report I can read about what happened, including any disciplinary or management measures that were taken? How about the others - who's ensuring that it was an appropriate and proportionate response to the danger? Can I read their report? Is there a body which makes recommendations to the police on how to ensure that <things we don't want> are less likely to happen? And the mere presence of a weapon doesn't always make it an appropriate response, especially in a country where there is a legal right to own a weapon. We're well aware than internal investigations don't work, and that external investigations only sort of work.

Also, circling back - even if the police only killed violent people, my personal experience is that their interactions with the community are pretty much always to threaten violence - except for their attempts to indoctrinate children into accepting their presence. I've seen police break ribs and knock non-violent, merely uncooperative, people unconscious, then fail to provide healthcare. They've harassed and threatened people attempting to film them, including taking details and arresting people who refuse to provide them. There was a spate where they arrested random people on my street for no stated reason, then released them just before they had to explain to a judge why they were arrested. Just because people don't die most of the time doesn't make them unaffected.

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27. catalo+nm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 16:44:30
>>vertex+jK
I'm skeptical of widespread falsification of weapon possession, however I do think it deserves mention that "they had a weapon" is not synonymous with "they were doing something wrong." Certainly not in America.

No-knock night raids should probably be considered a violation of the 2nd Amendment, among other things. Kenneth Walker was well within his rights to shoot the plainclothes cops breaking into his home in the middle of the night.

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28. runawa+Er1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 17:19:59
>>metrok+LR
> He also likely drove there drunk, so investigating was ethical.

This can’t be proved. I’ve poured a few shots into a drink and had it with my meal at fast food places plenty of times. He could have been drinking inside Wendy’s, easily. He could have gotten drunk, couldn’t walk to his sister’s place, decided to sleep some of it off in the car.

It’s hard to argue if there is a rejection of the need for nuance and that situations fall on a spectrum.

The law is the law until we see it a little bit. If RB had priors and he was about to get a parked dui, that could be real jail time again, and a drunken person could easily react drunkenly.

Do you as a cop factor in the fragility of the situation or do you exact the law word for word, regardless of how much more dangerous the situation will get.

The RB situation is extremely complicated. I feel bad for the cops and don’t think they deserve felony charges. However, I do think the police department needs more rigorous training on dealing with common scenarios at a higher level.

I also don’t think RB needed to go to be cuffed that night, and needed a place to sleep it off like he suggested.

It’s sad all around.

replies(1): >>random+NT2
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29. dang+dx1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 17:58:27
>>a13692+jh
Sorry, but I don't believe there is.
replies(1): >>a13692+aP1
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30. a13692+aP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 20:01:48
>>dang+dx1
Pity. Thanks for the confirmation that I wasn't missing something obvious, at least.
replies(1): >>dang+8V3
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31. random+NT2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-22 11:20:29
>>runawa+Er1
It's quite clear you're confidently commenting without having watched any of the multiple videos available.

He was passed out in his car in the drive thru lane. Did you even watch any of the videos? He was not cognizant for most of the video.

> I also don’t think RB needed to go to be cuffed that night, and needed a place to sleep it off like he suggested.

Riiiight...

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32. dang+8V3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-22 17:26:58
>>a13692+aP1
If you need something like that in specific cases you can always email hn@ycombinator.com.
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33. kelnos+Hm9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-24 03:55:10
>>metrok+UC
Given US gun culture, I would not immediately classify "has a gun/knife" as "violent criminal". And even for people who could potentially be violent, how many of those police shootings involved a suspect that had actually drawn their weapon and/or was behaving aggressively with it? And if we're talking about self-reporting by cops, I don't think we should take their assessment of the situation at their word without some sort of corroboration.

Regardless, even if the police killed some 1000 armed people during a year, so what? 1000 is certainly a tiny sub-1% fraction of total interactions. If anything, you're only supporting my assertion that the vast majority of people the police have to deal with are non-violent and can be dealt with using non-leathal force, or little to no force at all.

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