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[parent] [thread] 23 comments
1. kingof+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-15 02:36:14
> Is it out of control though? The police has 700K members in the US. Millions of daily interactions with people of all kinds. All you could find is 400 cases from ALL the years. And I guess the claim is brutality wasn't justified in every single case. In reality there are not 400 cases on that list, and in many cases the violence was justified.

400 ... where there are videos. We know that until a video emerges these get swept under the rug, so I'm willing to bet that there are a fair few more than 400 examples of police brutality.

replies(2): >>buffer+L >>ardy42+Cj
2. buffer+L[view] [source] 2020-06-15 02:45:01
>>kingof+(OP)
I agree that there are more than 400, we know that just by the number of people getting shot.

Now, how many are unjustified? That's the important question.

replies(3): >>chrisc+o7 >>espere+Qg >>vmcept+TO
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3. chrisc+o7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 04:11:55
>>buffer+L
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de... just under 1000 police involved shootings each year. Can't find the source, but of these only about 47 were un-armed and most of those involved protecting someone else from a physical attack.
replies(2): >>common+Y9 >>nl+wB
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4. common+Y9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 04:45:48
>>chrisc+o7
Those figures are for fatal police shootings, not for all police shootings. Police shootings and police brutality do not necessarily result in death.
replies(1): >>buffer+mC
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5. espere+Qg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 06:14:34
>>buffer+L
An important question, and a simple answer: all cases of police misconduct and brutality are unjustified.
replies(1): >>buffer+dC
6. ardy42+Cj[view] [source] 2020-06-15 06:46:29
>>kingof+(OP)
> 400 ... where there are videos. We know that until a video emerges these get swept under the rug, so I'm willing to bet that there are a fair few more than 400 examples of police brutality.

And those videos have uncovered many instances the the police blatantly lying about their own misconduct in official reports, which is further evidence that the videos are only the tip of the iceberg.

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7. nl+wB[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 09:49:48
>>chrisc+o7
> Can't find the source, but of these only about 47 were un-armed and most of those involved protecting someone else from a physical attack.

This is wrong.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed lists 1ists at least 104 unarmed black people alone killed by police in 2015.

I went though the first 20, and maybe 8 could have been accidents (one was hit by a car) or otherwise explained (2 pointed toy guns at police).

replies(2): >>buffer+IC >>chrisc+rP1
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8. buffer+dC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 09:56:17
>>espere+Qg
That's blatantly false.

How do you stop someone pointing a gun at the police officer without brutality?

How do you stop someone attacking a police officer?

How do you stop someone going for their gun?

How do you stop someone going around shooting innocent people?

etc, etc, etc.

replies(1): >>espere+fF
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9. buffer+mC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 09:57:15
>>common+Y9
You keep avoiding the question. How many are unjustified?
replies(2): >>boombo+0O >>danShu+j61
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10. buffer+IC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 10:00:12
>>nl+wB
First of all, you're pulling old data. Try last year.

But even then, half of the cases sound like accidents, out of 104. The remaining is pretty close to 47.

replies(2): >>nl+fD >>UncleM+Ub1
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11. nl+fD[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 10:05:43
>>buffer+IC
I don't know where to get last years data in such detail.

There are plenty of sites that count the number of killings, but this is one of the few that looks for unarmed ones. If you are aware of better or more recent stats (for example the source of this 47 number) I'd love a link.

> half of the cases sound like accidents, out of 104. The remaining is pretty close to 47.

I find it mind-boggling that killing 52 unarmed people by accident is somehow the best case scenario here.

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12. espere+fF[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 10:25:18
>>buffer+dC
Is there a term for the type of response that, instead of furthering the discussion, just tries to overwhelm you with questions?
replies(2): >>bilege+RF >>buffer+pU
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13. bilege+RF[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 10:32:51
>>espere+fF
Gish gallop[1]? Although that includes arguments, not just questions.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

replies(1): >>common+en2
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14. boombo+0O[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 11:53:34
>>buffer+mC
Ignoring the land mine that is defining "unjustified," why is somebody else obligated to answer your question?
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15. vmcept+TO[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 12:01:40
>>buffer+L
> unjustified

Every municipality has different rules for officer's conduct. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (Part of the Federal US Department of Justice), there are 17,985 US police agencies, of which 15,400 departments govern the 39,044 distinct local governments and municipalities. These are further divided into autonomous administrative districts often referred to as precincts.

The rules for officer misconduct change in each municipality as reactions to prior conduct or complaints. The rules are based on edicts from the state, as well as interpretations of those edicts by the local police department which create internal policy. The level of compliance with creating and updating internal policies varies. No civilian is able to know or predict the various rationale an officer may use or is able to use to behave any particular way. Civilians learn after they have had a bad encounter with an officer, or are in jail or dead. Juries learn on the spot with prosecutor instructions, sometimes those instructions themselves are misleading or incorrect. The public does not necessarily ever learn what the standards were, and the media learns after the fact and only has a patchwork of "isolated incidents" that occurred in frankly different governing systems. When put together, this fuels discontent with police as an amorphous entity, an interpretation which fuels a growing divide of non-solutions.

So the term "justified" and "unjustified" means nothing because it is different and changing everywhere and is a term that only matches your pre-existing worldview, or your predilection to appeal to authority in counties and states you have never set foot in, let alone participate in.

replies(1): >>hef198+f41
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16. buffer+pU[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 12:53:41
>>espere+fF
So you can't answer 4 simple questions. So you pretend to be overwhelmed. Got it.
replies(1): >>espere+n11
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17. espere+n11[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 13:41:42
>>buffer+pU
The answer to your questions is that those are not examples of police brutality, so long as the police respond with reasonable force.

Along with reading your other comments here, I viewed these 4 questions as a bad faith attempt at steering the conversation off topic. When people complain about police brutality, we are not talking about the times when police have to legitimately defend themselves or disarm someone. This thread is specifically about the hundreds of clearly documented examples of unprovoked violence by police in the US over the last few weeks, many of them against journalists, elderly people, kneeling protestors and so on. Please engage with that and don't try to change the subject again.

replies(1): >>buffer+bm2
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18. hef198+f41[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 14:00:32
>>vmcept+TO
The number of distinct police forces might already be a problem in itself.

Germany has 16 state level and one federal, plus customs (not legally a police force with a lot less jurisdiction)

France has two, Police national and Gendamerie.

Obviously a slight oversimplification when counting stuff like the BKA / LKA (maybe the German equivalent to the FBI?) as seperate bodies. But roughly across Europe you have two levels,local and federal. Both are reporting, one way or the other, to the respective Ministeries of the Interior. Quite adifference compared to the US, where the highest authority can be a mayor. or none, if I understood the thing with local Sherrifs correctly.

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19. danShu+j61[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 14:11:39
>>buffer+mC
You're looking at a giant list of videos that people think are unjustified. You can go through and weed out videos that you think don't belong there. You can even submit pull requests to more organized compilations to remove unsubstantiated claims.

Your use of "unjustified" is entirely subjective. I don't know what your specific threshold is for justified violence against peaceful protestors, and it's a waste of time to try and guess what that threshold is. It's a waste of time for us to filter the data, only for you to then point out two videos you disagree with and ask everyone to repeat the same work over and over again.

All of the raw data is available to you in a list format. If you think there are errors, then fork the repo, file a pull request, or create an issue. Make your own list that demonstrates your point.

https://github.com/2020PB/police-brutality/issues

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20. UncleM+Ub1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 14:45:11
>>buffer+IC
Why the hell would it matter if they were accidents?
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21. chrisc+rP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 17:36:25
>>nl+wB
Just pulling some of these randomly out, there's quite a few that are clearly not caused by the police: https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/may/13/jail-inmate-di...

> Officers arrested the man for violating a domestic violence no contact order and unlawful possession of a firearm

> the man went into cardiac arrest during processing.

> Correction officers began resuscitation immediately, police said, and the man was transported to the hospital while he still had a pulse. He later died at the hospital.

https://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2015/07/10/Physical-...

> Ms. Harris declined to comment through an Allegheny County Jail Health Justice project spokeswoman, but she has said that her son took an anti-seizure medication twice daily and called her from the jail to ask for help getting health care workers there to give him the medication

> He died of acute peritonitis due to colon perforation, and the death was ruled natural.

> Our records indicate that within ten minutes of Mr. Smart’s arrival at medical intake, our staff ordered the medications he said he needed, and he received those medications as prescribed. During an emergency event later that evening, our records show that our staff administered additional treatment to Mr. Smart and that he responded to the medical care provided.

This is an extremely misleading website and not a reliable source.

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22. buffer+bm2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 20:05:11
>>espere+n11
"Bad faith" is the copout people use when they don't have a good counterargument.
replies(1): >>espere+GW2
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23. common+en2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 20:11:31
>>bilege+RF
"Gish gallop" is the correct term, but "buffer overflow" would also work in this case.
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24. espere+GW2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-16 00:15:52
>>buffer+bm2
I just gave you a counterargument and an opportunity to turn this around and respond in good faith to the issue at hand. You didn't take it. That's why I'm saying you're arguing in bad faith. You refuse to accept fault or engage with the real issue here, instead resorting to logical phallacies to try and derail the conversation, as most people on the far right do these days. Try again. Can you respond to the issue at hand, ongoing police brutality in the BLM protests?
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