Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended with an Emperor who everyone acclaimed as they were so tired of the bloodshed.
The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective.
The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is so fundamentally damaged and has not been effectively reformed fast enough.
The MLK quote is trotted out pretty often, but "a riot is the language of the unheard".
I don't think this is a good thing. The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence, not to appease angry protesters and to attempt to quell riots.
In this case, it appears overwhelmingly clear that the office should be charged; but arresting people because their actions have inspired protests or riots is very dangerous.
But it's not clear that the violence/property damage component was worth it. Nationwide protests and all of the public outcry could have been enough. Hard to tell at this point.
This is incoherent. You can't claim to not condone violence and in the same sentence say but actually it works.
Even if so, 90% of the protests and property damage were after the arrest, so... they're pointless?
We've had protests, for separate occasions, happen years and years and decades ago, and it has not been enough.
At which point will it be enough? How many more protests will it take? How many more decades will it take? Is anyone still on the fence on 2020 about whether or not bad cops are being protected by their peers and superiors? Do you have a timeline for when this sort of thing will change?
Like the current protesters who act surprised and offended when they get shot with rubber bullets after throwing bricks, rocks and enhanced fireworks at the police or people they deem opponents.
"Live by the sword, die by the sword" -Matthew 26, 26:52
Obviously. But they weren't, and given precedent, probably never would have been. That's why this is happening.
Yes, it would be great if the law worked as we intended it to. Yet it does not, and to suggest that we continue to sit here while these police officers continue to murder people undermines the ability of the people who are being murdered to stop it.
Trotted out by ignorant woke dummies. In his 1967 Stanford speech MLK also says: "Let me say as I've always said and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I'm still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and justice."
Using MLK to defend or advocate violence is astonishingly ahistoric.
The other three cops who helped to kill George Floyd have not been charged or arrested. Neither have the men who killed Breonna Taylor. That's hardly the limit of police violence that has gone unaccounted for. At this point it’s more of a protest against police brutality than just the one specific murder. So, no, not pointless.
MLK Jr was unequivocally non-violent. That quote was in the context of explaining the root cause of the rioting, not condoning or endorsing it.
Don't trust anyone trying to tell you MLK Jr would have supported violent protests.
They are either trying to manipulate you or sadly ignorant (or both, of course). In either case they have it wrong, in terms of history and in the implication that violent protest will lead to any kind of progress or justice.
Yesterday police in Columbus, Ohio replaced the American flag flying outside of their headquarters with a "Blue line" police flag. Just hours ago representatives of our nation's largest police force, the NYPD, posted on twitter the home address of the mayor's adult daughter.
It's a lack of political will, but that's kind of putting it mildly- it would be more accurate to say that the politicians are afraid of the police.
The failure after the riots was that we didn’t treat it as a national problem and undertake systemic reform of our policing systems from root to stem.
Precisely. People have been voting and non-violently protesting for decades, and it hasn't worked.
>like to see most beat cops completely disarmed
seems absolutely crazy to me as long as the general public has such easy access to guns.
I imagine that many people on those current protests believe they aren't in one either (or, at least, if one exists they are cast out of it). I'm in no position to judge if they are right, but on the case they are not, violence is no means to do a democratic protest.
Something _like_: make police leadership legally accountable for the actions of their officers. I say something _like_ this because it's in the right direction, but probably not the exact solution necessary. Another similar approach is something _like_ forbidding police unions or otherwise completely neuter them [with respect to Officer's actions].
Ideas like community service are good, but I think it's important to have clarity of approach (drop racism as the driving force and focus on accountability) and efficacy (make real changes).
This issue is very murky even to Americans, but everyone will say they know what the problem is or they will deny that there is a problem. If their description of the problem aligns with predictable political leanings, they're likely taking an emotionally driven perspective.
I see in another of your posts you said something to the effect of "If (protests) become violent, don't be surprised when (the police) respond with violence."
This solidly frames the protesters as the sole provocateurs and the police as solidly the ones that are backed into a corner. It's almost as if your argument relies on ignoring the literal murder of George Floyd when looking at the timeline of events.
To paraphrase a joke I saw a while ago, "If a police officer were kneeling on my neck, I would simply vote that officer out of office." It's patent nonsense meant for amusement, but the line of reasoning is similar to what you can construct out of specially selected MLK quotes or whatever.
Does anyone really believe this applies in this case? Lots of protesters are openly condemning the riots as "patently not about justice but only personal greed and appetite for violence".
> The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is so fundamentally damaged and has not been effectively reformed fast enough.
Both? I don't understand this "either or" mentality. "Why is everyone condemning the riots instead of condemning Floyd's murder?" Literally everyone is condemning Floyd's murder. Even the police unions are condemning Floyd's murder. It's the one thing everyone agrees on. Murderer was arrested and charged. The "debate" is about the merits of burning/looting/shooting-up communities (with an apparent preference for poor, minority communities) on top of the criminal prosecution.
Do any of the people who got gassed in this video look like they are committing violence or destruction? The cop who tossed the gas grenade is certainly committing violence, but that's about all I can see.
> I'm not a tough person, I'm not an aggressive person, I'm not a violent person. I was just standing there quietly alongside other peaceful protestors. I wanted desperately for the police to prove us wrong and show compassion and a desire to serve and protect the people. I was speaking gently to the officer who shoved me back before this...trying to look him in the face through his gas mask...telling him my name, about my wife and my family. I don't know why really.
> Then this gas was dropped and it went to hell. I was already blind within seconds. I couldn't breathe, I couldn't see. When I opened my eyes the smoke was too thick anyway to see a way out. I shouted that I couldn't breathe several times. The police just told me to move. I yelled, "Where?" with my last breath, but no help. I stumbled through the gas. The whole time in a complete panic. I could not breathe, and my involuntary response when the gas hit was to push all the air out of my lungs. I felt like I would collapse within seconds, and nearly did.
> Somehow I got out, after going a couple blocks through the smoke. I was nauseous, I had vomit in my mouth. Snot poured from my face. I still couldn't breathe. Every instinct told me not to breathe, but I figured I needed to get the gas out of my lungs, and I forced some breath.
> I stumbled away for the next 30 minutes, trying to get home. Some kind people gave me milk to pour in my eyes and face to help with the burns. Someone sprayed me with baking soda and water. As I was leaving, I saw more and more people coming down silently to join the protests.
> It's the next day, about 20 hours later. I still feel the tear gas in my lungs. It still burns.
> Not being able to breathe is the most terrifying experience of my life. A little fucking ironic, isn't it, to have the police forcing tens to hundreds of protestors to not be able to breathe at this protest?
It is going to be an us versus them, because not a single cop broke line, to do anything about the one who threw the grenade. They are making this an us versus them, because they stand as a united block, protecting their own, regardless the circumstances.
The job of a peace officer is to de-escalate the situation. Not a single one of them in the video is de-escalating the situation. One of them is committing assault, and the rest are standing there, watching.
You must have me confused with someone else. I've never made a comment like that.
'But my job in the end is to prove he violated a criminal statute - but there is other evidence that does not support a criminal charge.'[0]
This quotation is from a tabloid, but the quote--and the DA's failure to say unequivocally that he would prosecute Floyd's killer, Chauvin--contributed to the riots.
And then Chauvin was arrested the day after riots started.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8367221/Prosecutors...
In particular, the Gracchi violated an unspoken and unwritten compact that governed the behavior of the Roman aristocracy. In particular, they attempted to secure power for themselves using avenues not considered "in bounds". There was no institutional mechanism in place to process violations of that unwritten compact (social opprobrium had worked for hundreds of years), so the senators (Scipio Nasica in particular) immediately transitioned to personal violence.
Once the taboo against aristocrat-on-aristocrat violence vanished, Rome descended into waves of high aristocrats raising private armies to secure their personal power. It was, more or less, a game of last man standing that Augustus "won".
"The SBA [Sergeant's Benevolent Association], run by union boss Ed Mullins, the mayor’s fiercest critic, included a photo of a computer screen which appeared to be his 25-year-old daughter’s arrest report. The report included her date of birth, New York state ID number, and various biographical details, such as height, weight, and citizenship status. It also included an apartment number and home address, which appeared to be Gracie Mansion, the mayor’s residence (though the zip code did not match.)
"Twitter’s policies expressly forbid users from posting personal information, including identity documents, including government-issued IDs. Posting home addresses “or other identifying information related to locations that are considered private” is also forbidden.
"The SBA’s tweet remained up for more than an hour before eventually being taken down after a several users (including this reporter) flagged the tweet for abuse. The account was temporarily locked until the tweet was voluntarily deleted."
https://gizmodo.com/nypd-union-doxes-mayors-daughter-on-twit...
Violence like that does not work by itself. It only works if you have "legitimate" institutions that are willing to excuse or downplay the violence that occurs.
I wonder if a similar model, with different details, could work in the US? In the limit, that could involve police cars or foot patrols working in pairs, one unarmed and doing the actual policing, and another one following some way behind, but not getting involved unless a gun was spotted. Put body cameras on the unarmed unit, with the armed officers watching a live feed, so they don't even have to wait for a call.
That said, as the wikipedia article points out, the British model does not extend to the whole of the UK - police in Northern Ireland routinely carry guns, which in 2020 is rather depressing.
[1] https://www.eliteukforces.info/police/CO19/weapons/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_firearms_in_the...
For example:
"X is a bad person, therefore their argument is invalid" is an ad-hominem. Bad people can still make valid arguments.
"X's argument is both invalid and in bad faith, therefore they are a bad person" is a logical inference.
These riots are targeted at innocent civilians. Destroying peoples livelihoods, setting fire to residences with people still inside (including children), etc.
I would not be so quick to draw such a comparison.
We have a democracy. People have opportunities to vote. Police policy is decided largely at the local level, so individual votes are powerful. Imagine if even 10% of protesters voted in their local elections...
listen to your fellow humans
When you see news about a riot, your first instinct should be to ask why? What are they rioting about? What was being said that led to this situation? Were people listening? How did they respond?
Not make a judgement of them.
This is where media has great power in controlling the narrative. If they don’t report on what happened prior to the riots (ex: peaceful protests, calls to representatives for action, etc), then it becomes very hard to see rioters as human beings with a voice.
Edit: note that I’m not making a judgement on OP. I writing this because I often see this reaction to riots and people often take away the wrong message both ways.
It has already escalated for one reason or another, and it's hard for violence to de-escalate as it feeds each side until one decides to be "the loser". Only then can it subside or de-escalate. Right now, the police can't leave things be as they are in some places watching protests turn violent. Personally, I would hold them accountable if they didn't try to stop violent protestors and to disperse large crowds that start getting unruly or have the potential to. And that says nothing of the message or the grievances that the protestors may have.
"Broad agreement" by who, exactly? I keep seeing videos of cops smashing windows then blaming it on protestors, cops attacking crowds with tear gas and less-lethal rounds, and now a shooting of a small business owner at a barbecue. It's not connected to a concern for justice because you're looking at the wrong side to blame.
While the ideologues of the American Revolution were arguing for lofty Enlightenment-era ideals, on the ground things were much more opportunistic, with people joining the secessionist movement in order to plunder those Tory households, or to earn some money as a soldier or mercenary.
What? If 10% of the people who turned out to protest actually voted in their local elections, they would have whatever they wanted. Voting has hardly been attempted, and there are voting data to prove it.
> "Broad agreement" by who, exactly?
Basically everyone who isn't an outside agitator, but if you don't already believe me I doubt I'm going to change your mind.
> I keep seeing videos of cops smashing windows then blaming it on protestors, cops attacking crowds with tear gas and less-lethal rounds, and now a shooting of a small business owner at a barbecue. It's not connected to a concern for justice because you're looking at the wrong side to blame.
I don't know what to tell you. Cops aren't using kid gloves any more for sure, but cities are descending into chaos and no one in good faith thinks its the cops that are out there doing the looting and burning.
You can also see dirty tricks at local council meetings, where those in authority abuse the meeting’s rules of order to quickly shut down anyone speaking up about problems that those in authority don’t want addressed.
Trotting out a nebulous, totally unsourced claim and then implying that anyone who questions you is wrong beyond help is… not exactly a convincing tactic.
[1]https://www.chronicle.com/article/Can-We-Really-Measure-Impl...
Tell that to the police. The current "don't use violence" rhetoric is cleverly being aimed at the protestors and seems to be giving a consistent pass to the other side's behavior. In many cases, these guys are suited up like shock troops, visibly excited and ready to bust skulls, and when they're unleashed they are going to find skulls (peaceful or not) to bust. This is a system that only knows how to use violent escalation to solve problems, and lo and behold, they're out there bringing on the violence. The protests are about police brutality, and the police are coming in and using the only tool they know: brutality. But it's OK because someone somewhere else is burning down a Target?
> To use it is effective acknowledgement that you either want to destroy the democracy or do not believe that it actually exists on the moment.
From your wording you seem to be agreeing that the police also "want to destroy the democracy".
It is especially important for people to condemn violence that leads to outcomes they are in favor of. Otherwise, groups that are in favor of something else, decide "hey, violence works, voting doesn't" and you descend into horror as different groups all use violence to get their ways.
If you want to change the way things are inside the system vote, organize, protest. But actually seeking to overthrow the government is opening a whole can of very, very bad things.
What cops really need is more training to not shoot first and ask questions later. 18yo marines manning checkpoints in the middle east are expected to more or less hold their fire until they come under fire. Domestic police should be held to similiar standards.
It seems like the protestors have lost faith in the democratic process. Can you still call it a democratic protest?
Why, is there evidence of this? It isn't very obvious to me that he wouldn't get arrested and charged otherwise, this case is way clearer than any other controversial police killing I've seen.
The problem is there has been ZERO actual reform to policing at all, there have been at best some lipstick measures but there has been zero real reforms to the fundamental structure of policing in this nation. Which includes the Paramilitary style, training, order, and even ranking with in the various dept's
The Militarization of the police force has been going on for decades, and this is what happens when you use a military for policing. It never works out well for anyone
I have no hope that the police departments of this nation have any desire to roll back that militarization at all, and I have no hope that the legislatures of this nation have any intention to force that rollback to occur.
Really, honestly, think about this rationale and think about what it would look like if people with different views than you applied this line of reasoning. Would you be okay with anti-abortion activists employed direct action and did to clinics what these protestors did to police stations?
You cannot tell a group of people that violence must be beneath them when they're facing a system that employs violence against them with impunity and often bends over backwards to justify it, in a culture which holds violence as one of the foundations of liberty itself. That would be suicidal.
Violence should be a last resort, but it can't ever be off the table, not in the US.
I am deeply critical of this line of thought. There are so many negative consequences of properties destruction and looting that counterweight the benefits.
As far as I am concerned this is an argument that only someone that did not have a riot outside of their own house can espouse.
I apologize for the hyperbole of that argument, but it is something that I would personally say to everyone condoning the destruction, the looting, and the violence; even knowing that in some instances I will be wrong.
I a couple of months there will be one less evil cop around and also quite few stores destroyed, livelihood evaporated, family savings lost, destroyed buildings in historically minority and poor neighborhoods.
Once the dust settles hundreds of people will be in far worse conditions that they would have been otherwise AND those will not be the protesters, those will be the people, families, kids, that had the protest happen around them.
It is the difference between "If you believe X then your school must have had brain-dead teachers" and "If you believe X you are brain-dead"
You could say that disarmed police in regular patrols can be safer as it is less of a threat to a criminal. this would obviously not apply to known cases of dangers or cases were reinforcements are unlikely.
For example, the bar owner that killed a protestor in Omaha, NE was arrested right after the incident. Tonight he has been released because the investigation determined the shooting was self-defense.
Omaha will burn brightly tonight.
It is either a democratic protest, domestic terrorism, or a civil war. I hope with all my being that it is a democratic protest.
Or were you referring to something else?
"They asked if our own nation wasn’t using massive doses of violence to solve its problems, to bring about the changes it wanted. Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today: my own government."
Think about all of the left-wing voters in a very Red congressional district or state. Think of all the right wing voters in a very Blue district or state. They are not officially disenfranchised, but their vote doesn't really matter either, so why vote at all? The equation changes somewhat for swing states/districts, but even then it's often a lesser of two evils choice, rather than any major progression towards policy goals. There are some democracies that mitigate some of these issues (getting rid of the electoral college and first past the post would go a long way in the US), but in general democracy leaves a lot of people dissatisfied.
If your major disagreement with the status quo is the tax rate, or certain business regulations, your dissatisfaction with the democratic process is manageable. If your major disagreement with the status quo is police brutality and injustice that make your life miserable, then what is the downside to rioting and destruction? Maybe there's only a tiny chance that something good will come out of it, but it's better than a zero percent chance of enacting change by continuing to vote and lose elections.
First, no one is forcing you to have an abortion you don't want. Anti-abortion activity is for the sake of others, and never yourself. This makes it no less noble of an endeavor for your personal beliefs, but since other people having abortions don't actually affect you one wit, it's hard to see abortion as having the same urgency as police brutality, where people at random are dying daily, and anybody could be the next target.
Second, because their voices are being heard. Between the banning of funding for Planned Parenthood domestically as well as internationally, and continued restrictions to constructively ban abortion in several states, it's clear that progress is being made, so voting is working. This is not clear at all for victims of police violence, where claims have been increasing over time, not decreasing.
Your comment is just as empowering for said activists to say "voting hasn't worked, murdering the unborn remains legal nationwide. We need to use direct action against abortion providers".
The idea that force is justified because democracy has not produced the desired outcome directly leads to a world where might makes right.
Also in the midst of a pandemic that kills by making you unable to breathe, and which is going get worse in the next few weeks because of all this.
I don't know about you, but if I had 18 complaints against me at work, I would probably have got in trouble by now, and I'm not talking about two "letters of reprimand".
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/derek-chauvin-what-we-...
"See, people with power understand exactly one thing: violence. If violence is effective, it's okay. But if violence loses it's efectiveness, then they start worrying and have to try somethong else." - Noam Chomsky.
Drawing too many parallels between that and the protestors would be unfair, particularly where motive is concerned, but it is hard not to notice the energy is the same in a lot of ways. One side doing violence against the system and another doing violence against infrastructure, each because they feel the system has been irreparably damaged by the influence of the other.
On the other hand your comment is saying that one of the worst thing those groups collectively did was voting. I don't think you are making the argument you think you are making.
On the other hand, if you are saying that the other side might start rioting too; isn't that an argument for deescalation?