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[parent] [thread] 43 comments
1. chowar+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-04-02 20:38:13
All I wanted to do was read the memo and I couldn't find the link. I'm not sure if I missed it or what but this is a common problem I run into on "news" sites. They quote (often out of context) parts of something but give no links to the actual source.
replies(2): >>throwa+y >>anigbr+V8
2. throwa+y[view] [source] 2020-04-02 20:40:36
>>chowar+(OP)
That's very much by design, in order to paint a certain picture, generate outrage, and ultimately clicks. Recall when the James Damore story was breaking? Many outlets like Motherboard (owned by Vice, authors of this story) circulated quotes and even modified documents that didn't show the full list of research references quoted by Damore, in an attempt to paint a certain picture.

Unfortunately this is the low bar set by a lot of modern journalism. We need a way out of it back to neutral, factual reporting.

replies(3): >>Dubiou+W1 >>mifree+A4 >>anigbr+t9
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3. Dubiou+W1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 20:46:50
>>throwa+y
> Unfortunately this is the low bar set by a lot of modern journalism. We need a way out of it back to neutral, factual reporting.

Creating fact focused journalism is a laudible goal but I'd be curious of what specific time in history you think that this was generally the case?

replies(3): >>throwa+P4 >>downer+U4 >>koheri+47
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4. mifree+A4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 20:58:52
>>throwa+y
I don't know why you're getting down-voted. Must be people that've never read about mass media in Manufacturing Consent.
replies(1): >>ahelwe+r5
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5. throwa+P4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 21:00:36
>>Dubiou+W1
That's a good point. I can't say whether we've ever hit the mark on that generally. However, old news broadcasts (you can find them on Youtube) do seem a lot less emotional and more neutral. They probably still had their biases; I am unsure. However, I feel like HN is often sources from outlets like Vox and Vice, both of which are recognized as having a strong bias (see https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-ratings). We can at least do better, even if we can't be perfect.
replies(1): >>Dubiou+B8
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6. downer+U4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 21:00:48
>>Dubiou+W1
Not OP, but it was my impression that quality journalism was generally the case in the 1980s (in the US at least). What I was reading then certainly seemed to be. Separation of church and state was taken very seriously.

These days, you can't start with the assumption that a story is written to J standards. Rather, you need to start with the assumption that it's pushing narrative, and hope to be surprised.

replies(2): >>Dubiou+o7 >>Captai+p21
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7. ahelwe+r5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 21:03:29
>>mifree+A4
Have you? That book was about how the pro-corporate media portray various regions & people so as to drum up support for war. This situation is roughly the opposite of that.
replies(1): >>mifree+88
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8. koheri+47[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 21:11:59
>>Dubiou+W1
The 1980's had excellent investigative journalism.

Journalists these days limit their fact-finding to what tweets they can dig up.

replies(2): >>pasaba+ig >>Dubiou+cj
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9. Dubiou+o7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 21:13:44
>>downer+U4
I think you should consider the possibility that the news wasn't necessarily any better just more people had faith in a few sources such as broadcast news and national papers, leading to less contention of the facts.
replies(3): >>downer+ge >>maland+Yg >>jsheve+CF
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10. mifree+88[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 21:18:11
>>ahelwe+r5
It's more generally about mass media and the manipulation of information to create a certain narrative. The same tactics of mass media can be applied to different agendas.
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11. Dubiou+B8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 21:21:54
>>throwa+P4
There is as much bias in what you choose to report on as there is in the way you report it. For most of the mid-late 20th century major media outlets uncritically reported information stated by the White House and the military.

To do so without commentary or comparison to factual reality is a kind of bias but feels neutral because it doesn't create contention in an individual's mind. There are exceptions such as Cronkite's broadcast after the Tet Offensive which I am not lauding or criticizing here, only to say it was out of the norm.

12. anigbr+V8[view] [source] 2020-04-02 21:24:23
>>chowar+(OP)
Probably because it was forwarded by email and the leaker's identity and job would be at risk.
replies(1): >>daenz+7b
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13. anigbr+t9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 21:27:52
>>throwa+y
throwawaysea

I didn't realize marine pollution had gotten so bad.

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14. daenz+7b[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 21:38:48
>>anigbr+V8
Redacting is a long accepted practice when revealing information but preserving secrets.
replies(2): >>nitrog+Ec >>Pharao+sf
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15. nitrog+Ec[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 21:49:29
>>daenz+7b
Supposedly so is the practice of using subtle variations in spelling, word choice, word order, spacing, typography, etc. to identify recipients of documents.
replies(4): >>greedo+Wc >>oh_sig+Ff >>daenz+Pf >>throwa+om
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16. greedo+Wc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 21:51:23
>>nitrog+Ec
Canary Trap...
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17. downer+ge[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 22:02:10
>>Dubiou+o7
There definitely was bias then, but it was far more limited (with a few scandalous exceptions). As an example, TV news couldn't strongly push an agenda lest they risk losing their broadcast license. Mixing church and state at the NYT was a great way to get fired.

More personally, I took a J class during this period and wrote for a school newspaper. The instructor talked about J standards the way NRA instructors talk about gun safety--it was practically a religion.

These days, if you want facts, you have to plumb the cesspools of the right and the left and work it out for yourself.

replies(1): >>Dubiou+ji
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18. Pharao+sf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 22:10:53
>>daenz+7b
Its fairly common to embed canary trap into message to find out who the leeker is. Not saying this memo had one, but its generally no longer safe to just show redacted messages without compromising the source.
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19. oh_sig+Ff[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 22:12:52
>>nitrog+Ec
This is exactly what I worked on ~10 years ago at amazon, embedding steganographic information into a certain internal app that reported confidential sales numbers. Ended up catching the person who leaked this: https://techcrunch.com/2011/10/04/leaked-sales-data-puts-kin...
replies(2): >>JorgeG+fl >>mavsma+ol
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20. daenz+Pf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 22:14:22
>>nitrog+Ec
Are you making an argument for a news agency to never reveal the contents of any leaks, ever? There's always some risk involved, and that's the price of leaking the truth and expecting people to believe you. How can we expect people to "do their research" and be critical of information, when the news agencies themselves won't reveal it, and instead are paraphrasing and interpreting it for us? That's nonsense.
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21. pasaba+ig[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 22:18:25
>>koheri+47
I know that the watergate scandal was in the 70's, but it's generally held to be a landmark of great investigative journalism. A few years ago, it came out that 'deep throat' was actually Mark Felt, a former FBI director with an axe to grind against Nixon. So this great demonstration of the power of a free press turned out to be actually a couple of ambitious journalists serving as the mouthpiece for a three-letter agency, and indeed, the FBI at that time (and Mark Felt especially) were a paradigm of overreach.

Which is kind of a depressing turn on what was once one of the American journalistic epics about the power of truth. Obviously it's hard to generalize, but it does seem to me that this is part of the advantage governments and companies see in a free press - it's a way to launder information, so you can be in every way obviously a rat, but have the voice of a trusted, independent organization.

I don't know if the watergate scandal was characteristic. Certainly, it's an extreme example. But if politicians and statesmen couldn't play journalists, why would they invite them to every occasion? If journalists were investigators in the sense that police are investigators - powerful people would quickly learn to shun them, just as criminals avoid every possible interaction with the police. Seems to me that investigative journalism is, in the final analysis, a way of giving credibility to a process that is at best haphazard and informal, and at worst, simple propaganda.

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22. maland+Yg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 22:25:05
>>Dubiou+o7
Back in the day, news organizations could make money by just presenting the facts first ahead of any other news organization. Just being the first to collect and disseminate information was the key to success. Collecting and disseminating information is now a commodity and the way to be the first in front of someone to make money off add impressions requires virality, and the most clickbait biased content is how you produce profitable content.

Not saying that this problem never existed in the past, but it is far far worse now.

Go watch Walter Cronkite's reporting on the Kennedy assassination. He and his news room is just reporting the facts as they get them with no editorialization or agenda.

replies(1): >>Dubiou+Dm
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23. Dubiou+ji[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 22:37:18
>>downer+ge
You really don't think they teach the same high-minded stuff in journalism classes these days? I would bet you that if you sat in on meetings at the NYT or broadcast news outlets you would hear the exact same kind of intent as you attribute to them in yesteryear.

I could be wrong but I think the far bigger difference from then to today is not the quality of the journalism out of mainstream outlets but that the plethora of outlets available has removed the necessity of consensus myth making. Instead of a collected national myth that Americans share they can now choose their own myth.

They used to have to bend their views somewhat towards the major news because people seek to resolve their cognitive dissonance. Now they can change the channel. As an example, my parents are conservative and when Walter Cronkite criticized the Vietnam War and journalists put direct images of the conflict on TV they praised that. Yet when mainstream news which had generally backed the war in Iraq began to report on things going wrong there my parents were livid. When news outlets began reporting on soldiers dying and reading the names of the dead they were even angrier. Nevermind that the news was unable to air the kinds of direct footage of war they had in the 60s because the military had become much savier about the kinds of situations they let reporters into.

I think major news had almost the exact same, pro establishment, upper middle class ivy league bias it has today. I just think it's easier to confirm a contrary opinion. If Fox News existed in the sixties I think it would've run with slander stories about MLK for example and might've hampered Civil Rights. But they didn't exist and general regard for MLK as a hero became the default myth.

Again, I could be wrong but I think it's a perspective worth putting up against the common narrative.

replies(1): >>downer+l42
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24. Dubiou+cj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 22:47:38
>>koheri+47
Unless, you were gay or an intravenous drug user. Then you got to hear journalists literally laughing along with the Reagan administration's jokular jokes about the disease that might kill you. Or you didn't because no one reported about that at the time.
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25. JorgeG+fl[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:05:32
>>oh_sig+Ff
Out of curiosity, can you share a ballpark of how many different variations can you generate per, say, paragraph of text?
replies(2): >>throwa+wm >>oh_sig+Co
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26. mavsma+ol[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:06:41
>>oh_sig+Ff
Curious how you feel about that now. Any guilt about building that? Pride? Ambivalence?
replies(1): >>oh_sig+On
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27. throwa+om[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:17:26
>>nitrog+Ec
Word choice works best, assuming the source is textual; simple alternation of synonyms gives 2^n unique versions in the number of replacement candidates, and it's not hard to automate. You ideally want to take measures to reduce the likelihood of a given recipient seeing anyone else's copy and thus having a chance to spot the variance, but there are ways to do that and in most cases it's not all that likely in the first place.

On the other hand, news outlets that receive leaks are typically well aware of these techniques and will act to frustrate them. When you see a leak reported on but not directly published, that's why. If you want to evaluate veracity, a good method is to look at any response made by the source. In this case, it's legit; if it weren't, the Amazon GC would say so. He's not going to lie in a way that discovery will make immediately obvious in any case that comes of this, so he made the world's worst excuse instead. The surprise is that he let himself be reached for comment at all - between that and the "yeah, I sure did goof it, huh?" style of what he said when he was, I wouldn't be too astonished to see a golden handshake eventuate in the fullness of time.

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28. throwa+wm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:18:37
>>JorgeG+fl
If you choose N words to alternate with one synonym each, you can make 2^n unique versions.
replies(1): >>JorgeG+Cm
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29. JorgeG+Cm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:19:40
>>throwa+wm
Oh, I was thinking in more subtle things such as spacing, punctuation, sizing, kerning, etc.
replies(1): >>throwa+Km
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30. Dubiou+Dm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:19:55
>>maland+Yg
Back in what day specifically?
replies(1): >>maland+kn
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31. throwa+Km[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:20:58
>>JorgeG+Cm
Ideally you don't want to count on a screenshot being published.
replies(1): >>london+JF
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32. maland+kn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:26:25
>>Dubiou+Dm
Back before collecting and disseminating information rapidly became a commodity. So basically before CNN approximately and definitely before blogs.

There's not a specific moment in time. There are specific innovations that accelerated and commodified the dissemination of facts, which each contributing to this decline in journalistic integrity and greater faithfulness to facts.

replies(1): >>Dubiou+ip
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33. oh_sig+On[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:29:26
>>mavsma+ol
No guilt at all - mostly ambivalence. It was actually my idea to put it into the specific product, but it's not like I invented the technique or anything. It was only one small thing I worked on, 98% of my time was on something else.

I think the ability to leak information about the wrongdoing of corporations or governments is extremely important, but most of the leaks I see coming out of the tech industry seem designed just to score points in some internal political war or push the company in the direction that the leaker wants it to go. Or just for some weird form of self-aggrandizement

replies(1): >>throwa+1q
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34. oh_sig+Co[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:38:45
>>JorgeG+fl
What I worked on was more like a spreadsheet, so I didn't use any of the text-oriented steganographic techniques like replacing words with synonyms, etc.

I was able to develop enough variations that vastly outnumbered our users though, so even with just a portion of a screenshot, you could fairly easily figure out where it came from.

Just looking at possible CSS rules and you can see where the variations come into play - cell width, border width and styles, font color(e.g. the specific green or red that represents gain/loss), kerning, column placement , etc.

On top of that, I only fudged with display elements - the numbers were never changed. However, the numbers were updated on a near-continuous basis by ingesting various logs, so any column that was live(year/month-to-date, etc) would have only a very small time range where that number could have been displayed to the user.

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35. Dubiou+ip[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:46:35
>>maland+kn
So I watched the Cronkite stuff and it seems pretty similar to this.

https://youtu.be/VDv3_KfdBs4

So is your gripe generally applies to all contemporary journalism or specifically with CNN and Fox News? Isn't it just as likely that legacy news sources are still doing the news pretty much the way they always have but that the availability of alternative sources has allowed people to diverge their opinion from a mainstream one more than they could before? (Which I'm not saying is good or bad. I think it likely has benefits and drawbacks.)

replies(1): >>downer+J12
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36. throwa+1q[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 23:55:49
>>oh_sig+On
Having done the same kind of work - yeah, that. For every Edward Snowden, there's at least ten thousand Frank Underwoods and Michael Scotts.
replies(1): >>chowar+AC1
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37. jsheve+CF[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-03 03:20:13
>>Dubiou+o7
No, things have gone from bad to terrible in the internet era.
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38. london+JF[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-03 03:21:43
>>throwa+Km
For numbers like this, you can add a small amount of random variation to each number, and then save whatever variations you used to a database whenever someone views the stats.

Now when a leak happens of a specific number, you just check the logs to see who saw those exact numbers.

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39. Captai+p21[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-03 09:11:26
>>downer+U4
There never was such a thing as neutral, factual reporting.

Case in point: The Economist. Certainly one of the historically and currently most respected publications.

The Econsomist never claimed not to be biased. In fact they proudly produce opinion journalism.

The point, however, is that their reporting is fair and considers the other side of the argument and that the're absolutely open about where they stand.

Foreign Policy is another good example coming to mind.

News is produced by humans and humans have biases and always will have.

What's new is massive lying on an industrial scale and the fact that facts seem very relative nowadays, depending on the news medium.

replies(1): >>Dubiou+SJ1
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40. chowar+AC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-03 14:49:05
>>throwa+1q
This is the difference between leaking and whistleblowing. Leaking is for one's own personal benefit. Whistleblowing is to expose something you feel is wrong for no personal gain.

I wouldn't call this a leak unless the news agency paid him or something else that benefited him.

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41. Dubiou+SJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-03 15:25:23
>>Captai+p21
See, I agree with everything up to that last sentence. Because from what I can tell most people who say that just have a different idea of which media outlets that are the problem.

I think in some respects we're better off now. An outlet like The Intercept couldn't exist 40 years ago. They have a clear bias but some of the stories they break are huge and are exactly the kind of thing the NYT in its heyday would've sat on.

Our old media system had the benefit that it helped create a fairly singular truth for people to follow. But it created what I think was equal to the massive lying you are concerned about by just not reporting on lots of stuff.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/why-doe...

replies(1): >>downer+y02
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42. downer+y02[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-03 16:44:41
>>Dubiou+SJ1
> They have a clear bias but some of the stories they break are huge and are exactly the kind of thing the NYT in its heyday would've sat on.

I definitely agree that having a much larger ecosystem of news outlets is a big plus of the current era. One can almost watch the flow as things get leaked/scooped on obscure sites, and then often end up after a period of days/weeks/months on one of the "real" sites. (The Damore story and internal Google message traffic is an example.)

The downside is that it's a real grab bag of good stuff, junk, agitprop, and so on. In effect, we've all become journalists, in charge of sifting and verifying information to assemble a NPV story.

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43. downer+J12[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-03 16:48:41
>>Dubiou+ip
CNN is certainly doing things far differently than it did in the early days. It might not have been Reuters, but it was still quite neutral and of good journalistic quality. (These days it seems more reminiscent of Jerry Springer.)
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44. downer+l42[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-03 16:59:39
>>Dubiou+ji
I'm not sure. Simple mechanics like writing a good lede or headline seem to have almost disappeared.

And it seems to have become acceptable (on both left and right) for a news room to try to "get" a sitting President that they don't like, even if the result is sloppy journalism.

My impressions is that serious retractions (or worse, serious errors without retractions) are far more common now than thirty years ago.

As for MLK, even knowing what we do now, I still consider him a hero. But yeah, journalistic coverage of him back then was pretty uncritical.

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