zlacker

[parent] [thread] 98 comments
1. tlrobi+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-03-16 22:22:39
One of the more worrying things to me is how this pandemic (and/or our response to it) will disproportionately affect small businesses and individuals. As Amazon hires 100k workers how many jobs are being lost by small businesses failing?
replies(6): >>taurat+P1 >>Walter+b2 >>hadloc+q4 >>reaper+g7 >>ucario+l9 >>bpfrh+9d
2. taurat+P1[view] [source] 2020-03-16 22:31:52
>>tlrobi+(OP)
Amazon is now the only store open. This will clearly accelerate the death of retail, to the point that I'm not even sure it will survive.

We must have a rent holiday if those businesses and their workers are to survive.

replies(4): >>Walter+I2 >>Vector+E8 >>prosto+Ua >>fragme+CR
3. Walter+b2[view] [source] 2020-03-16 22:33:46
>>tlrobi+(OP)
Marginal businesses of any size are going to fail, and the less marginal will become marginal.

Larger businesses have a proportionately larger need for money to sustain themselves. Big business doesn't mean rich business. Look what's happening to the airlines.

replies(4): >>reaper+Q7 >>golove+lf >>muse90+Og >>swiley+b51
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4. Walter+I2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 22:36:50
>>taurat+P1
> We must have a rent holiday if those businesses and their workers are to survive.

We'll get a lot of rent forgiveness naturally. If a strip mall has some tenants who cannot make rent in this crisis, who are they going to get who can pay? The pragmatic approach is to keep your existing tenants, because their survival is your strip mall's survival.

replies(4): >>michae+G4 >>taurat+H4 >>fiblye+L4 >>tomato+HB1
5. hadloc+q4[view] [source] 2020-03-16 22:46:31
>>tlrobi+(OP)
About one third of small businesses were dead and buried by midnight Sunday.
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6. michae+G4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 22:47:35
>>Walter+I2
A cynical, calculating strip mall landlord might think they're more likely to get a government cash handout (or a cash handout to their tenants who then hand it to them, which is effectively the same thing) if they prove their tenants will go bankrupt without it.
replies(1): >>Walter+8c
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7. taurat+H4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 22:47:41
>>Walter+I2
Will that happen for housing? The businesses will lose all their workers during that time, and everyone will go work in an amazon warehouse.
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8. fiblye+L4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 22:48:14
>>Walter+I2
We might get a lot, but it likely won’t be enough.

Many land owners would already prefer to leave their buildings empty for years over even considering negotiating on rent. I doubt anything can change their minds.

replies(4): >>social+u5 >>majorm+ca >>Walter+Ub >>leetcr+ww1
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9. social+u5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 22:51:20
>>fiblye+L4
It’s odd but really true. Does anyone have insight why this is the case?
replies(2): >>Kluny+E6 >>opport+qr
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10. Kluny+E6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 22:58:38
>>social+u5
According to Strong Towns, it's because the building can borrow money based on the projected value of rent. If they lower the rent, they can't borrow as much money.

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/11/27/the-paradox-o...

11. reaper+g7[view] [source] 2020-03-16 23:02:03
>>tlrobi+(OP)
At least the airlines will get another bailout, after selfishly spending billions on stock buybacks while shrinking seats and hiking fees.

Meanwhile, Joe Average, who ended up running a food truck when Wells Fargo "right sized" him during the last recession, will find a comfortable slab of concrete upon which to rest his head, under the viaduct.

replies(2): >>parham+bb >>onlyre+xh
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12. reaper+Q7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:05:48
>>Walter+b2
You mean like American Airlines that had a profit of $7.6 billion in 2015, and didn't save dollar one for a rainy day? Instead, it bought back $15 billion worth of stock over six years while raising fees and shrinking seats?

“I don’t think we’re ever going to lose money again,” -Doug Parker, American Airlines CEO, 2017.

Let 'em fail.

replies(1): >>_jal+gd
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13. Vector+E8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:09:38
>>taurat+P1
>Amazon is now the only store open.

I've had Amazon Fresh cancel two orders so far so I'm not sure how open they are.

replies(1): >>vonmol+vz
14. ucario+l9[view] [source] 2020-03-16 23:14:04
>>tlrobi+(OP)
Perhaps an equivalent as in France could help? Macron has stated that no company, regardless of size, will go under merely as a result of this crisis.

To that end, any French company at risk of going under will be allowed to stop paying rent and taxes during the shutdown.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https:/...

replies(2): >>yahyah+Za >>ksec+Mo
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15. majorm+ca[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:19:16
>>fiblye+L4
We need taxes on vacancies. Encourage people to let property go to people who can put it to some use. Prevent blight and crime, etc, too.
replies(2): >>umeshu+Hc >>lmm+jM
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16. prosto+Ua[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:23:00
>>taurat+P1
Which area are you in?

Every large retail store is open (so far) in Southern California, with most retailers' inventory being purchased at full retail prices.

I am not sure why the retailers don't switch to curbside-pickup model exclusively, instead preferring hordes of customers roaming around every single morning, but from what I hear, Instacart and store-specific delivery programs are overwhelmed.

replies(2): >>asdff+5k >>leetcr+ax1
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17. yahyah+Za[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:23:32
>>ucario+l9
Such a simple and reassuring answer, why can’t we have that in America?
replies(1): >>opport+Ko
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18. parham+bb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:24:26
>>reaper+g7
> after selfishly spending billions on stock buybacks

I've been seeing this on twitter a lot. Is there some context you can provide for why these particular repurchases were in bad taste, given no awareness of the upcoming pandemic. I am assuming you don't view repurchases as 'selfish' generally.

replies(4): >>rcxdud+Pb >>totalZ+de >>oarabb+qi >>sjg007+hb1
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19. rcxdud+Pb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:28:06
>>parham+bb
I think the main thing is the airline industry is boom and bust, while being quite sensitive to a number of factors out of their control, but because they know they'll get bailed out by the public they have no reason to try saving to make their business robust against such things on their own. These talking points seem to be coming from this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/16/opinion/airlines-bailout....

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20. Walter+Ub[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:28:36
>>fiblye+L4
Not if they're short on cash, which they will be with this panic.
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21. Walter+8c[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:29:57
>>michae+G4
It simply does the landlord no good at all to evict them.
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22. umeshu+Hc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:34:23
>>majorm+ca
Ah yes, the California solution to everything - tax it.
replies(4): >>maest+9e >>Analem+0f >>akisel+Oh >>michae+vL
23. bpfrh+9d[view] [source] 2020-03-16 23:37:28
>>tlrobi+(OP)
Depends, in austria you have different laws and measures for one person companies to bigger companies.
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24. _jal+gd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:38:43
>>reaper+Q7
Letting them all fail would do more harm to others than warranted.

But letting the weakest one fail as a warning to the others that the bailouts are over and perhaps they should learn to save against rainy days isn't the worst idea.

replies(5): >>bigfud+9f >>reaper+ri >>michae+IL >>thathn+wb1 >>devdas+zl5
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25. maest+9e[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:46:42
>>umeshu+Hc
Honest question - should taxes be abolished?
replies(1): >>groby_+IN
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26. totalZ+de[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:47:13
>>parham+bb
A buyback is a form of capital return to shareholders.

Improvements in leg room, amenities, services, infrastructure, etc, are a form of capital return to customers.

When executive compensation is tied to operating profit or market capitalization, there is an incentive to reduce the product quality (the air traveler experience, in this case) to the minimum competitive level and boost the share price. A buyback boosts the share price in two inter-related ways. First, it reduces the amount of shares available in the secondary market (the "float"), which distributes the market cap across a smaller number of shares. Second, it provides artificial demand for the stock, impacting the price upward by buying shares.

Warren Buffett has stated that he likes investing in equities in part because companies reinvest their profits in their business. A buyback doesn't do that because when you spend $5B on your own stock, you're not spending it on providing a better experience to your customers, and you're not spending it on R&D. You're just spending it on concentrating shareholder ownership and driving up the stock price.

Guess who often gets paid in shares? Executives. It's common for a CEO to get a small portion of his compensation as salary and a large portion as shares and options.

The point is that these companies could have reinvested that money in their business, but instead they aimed to boost share price and financial optics.

That's not to say the airlines don't care about the little guy. Some shareholders are regular folks. Plus, at least Delta paid out a bonus to employees a few months ago. But there is indeed a reason to dislike large buybacks.

replies(4): >>opport+Zn >>ksec+yo >>a3n+1s >>former+ou
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27. Analem+0f[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:52:27
>>umeshu+Hc
Even the most die-hard libertarian economist believes in Pigouvian taxes to address externalities. If vacant buildings are an externality cost, they should be taxed.
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28. bigfud+9f[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:53:15
>>_jal+gd
If they fail and there’s a market for flights their assets will be bought and operated by someone else. Let them fail.

Given climate change, air travel is not a public good we should be prioritising.

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29. golove+lf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-16 23:54:21
>>Walter+b2
The problem is that certain industries now just assume they will be bailed out during crisis. The airline industry, the financial industry. It’s almost baked into their mode of operation at this point.
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30. muse90+Og[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:03:51
>>Walter+b2
That's the principle, but it doesn't reflect to the reality around us, or at least my reality.

I am in the tourism industry, owning a small-medium hotel.

If I stop paying any loans and generally I am left out of cash-flow I am pretty much screwed for the next few years, if not closing down.

I know though a few people around my area with massive resorts and a debt over 100mil that have already stopped paying quite a few loans themselvs and they are getting away with a slap on their wrist. The gov gets involved cause the debt is enough to damage a bank, and the people that are going to be left without a job are enough to cause a mini crisis. Then the bank itself... well for them its not just about ceasing the asset as its gonna be a hard thing to sell or manage.

Meanwhile the owners are taking out massive salaries + bonuses for their personal accounts and don't care about their balance sheet being a mess and their debts growing.

replies(1): >>sokolo+Lk
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31. onlyre+xh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:08:17
>>reaper+g7
Look, I complain about wealth inequality more than anyone I know.

Stock buybacks had A LOT of problems people don't discuss.

But this isn't really what ruined the airlines.

UAL -- the hardest hit and worst buyback offender -- bought back $1.2Bn in 2015, $2Bn in 2016, $3Bn in 2017, $1.2Bn in 2018, and $3Bn in 2019.

That's a total of $10.4Bn. To my knowledge, less than 4% of that was on borrowed money.

They returned roughly ~95% of free cashflow to investors mostly through buybacks instead of dividends.

UAL's Cash on Hand increased 25% in 2019 to $4.9Bn.

Even if they had that $10.4Bn, they could not get through Coronavirus. Airlines have HIGHLY volatile margins on INSANE amounts of revenue. None of them could withstand a 70% decrease in air traffic for a year.

Maybe they're all terribly run. I dunno. They were pretty bad buyback offenders, but far from the worst. And buybacks are not what ruined them.

Most companies keep less than 10% of Op Ex in cash on hand. UAL's Op Ex is about $38Bn/year. A lot of people think it's healthy for a business to have 25-50% of Op Ex in cash. For UAL, that would've been $9.5-$19Bn.

They could've been in that range if they didn't issue any dividends or buybacks since 2014. But they still wouldn't be able to make it through this.

And, no, I'm not saying that they should've done buybacks at the rate they did (or at all). I'm just saying this isn't what ruined them, and they are far from the worst offenders here. They're just the hardest hit.

Edit:

Curious if anyone familiar with the industry can comment:

How much of Airlines' Op Ex is fixed? How much can they realistically cut? I don't know enough about how this "mandatory" flight schedule works. How many flights do they need to keep flying to keep their gates?

replies(4): >>superc+kl >>ksec+Dn >>mxcros+631 >>pergad+h51
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32. akisel+Oh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:10:10
>>umeshu+Hc
smh California has had a rigid cap on property taxes since like the late 70s. That decision is largely why the rest of California's taxes are so high.
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33. oarabb+qi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:14:28
>>parham+bb
It is prudent for an individual to have a rainy day fund for emergencies.

It is also prudent for a corporation to have a rainy day fund for unpredictable events like an upcoming pandemic.

An individual who didn't properly save can go bankrupt in a time of emergency. Likewise, a company which didn't properly save should also go bankrupt in a time of emergency. Look at Apple or Berkshire Hathaway. Both have a massive safety net in the form of liquid cash for hard times.

replies(1): >>tomato+LA1
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34. reaper+ri[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:14:35
>>_jal+gd
Letting them all fail would do more harm to others than warranted.

"Too big to fail?" We fell for that once before.

replies(1): >>missed+oz2
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35. asdff+5k[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:25:37
>>prosto+Ua
They are open in Southern California, but running out of basics fast. I noticed a complete lack of certain produce, milk, eggs, bread, as well as the oft meme'd paper products.

Every morning I go to the grocery store in my neighborhood looking for toilet paper and every morning there is some new staple nearly out of stock. I still have a few rolls left, and amazon seems to have a few remaining in stock, so things aren't dire yet, but they are getting concerning.

This is also a city where not too long ago the social contract evaporated after hearing a verdict, requiring military intervention to restore order. An armed militia formerly stood on the roof of the store I scoured today for toilet paper. I'm fearful of what will happen when everyone realizes they can no longer wipe their ass or buy rice and the working class starts getting laid off en masse, and when this virus starts ravaging the 150k+ homeless in southern california.

replies(3): >>taurat+nn >>prosto+pq >>groby_+0O
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36. sokolo+Lk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:30:37
>>muse90+Og
“If you owe a bank a million bucks and can’t pay, you have a problem. If you owe a hundred million bucks and can’t pay, the bank has a problem.”
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37. superc+kl[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:32:53
>>onlyre+xh
Counter point:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/16/opinion/airlines-bailout....

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38. taurat+nn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:45:54
>>asdff+5k
Thus far the consumables supply chain in the US hasn’t been too badly effected. They’re doing thanksgiving or more amounts of business every day here in Seattle but they’re mostly keeping up. Whether we as a nation rip ourselves apart is on each of us as individuals to make that not happen.
replies(1): >>vonmol+gz
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39. ksec+Dn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:47:30
>>onlyre+xh
>Even if they had that $10.4Bn, they could not get through Coronavirus. Airlines have HIGHLY volatile margins on INSANE amounts of revenue. None of them could withstand a 70% decrease in air traffic for a year.

Ignoring Tech industry, most companies on earth could not withstand a 70% drop in revenue. The world we are in today is that everyone is trying to go for Big Revenue and Slim Profit Margin. A side effect from QE or worsen by it.

replies(2): >>Marsym+Ep >>yuliyp+0v
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40. opport+Zn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:49:40
>>totalZ+de
Why is a buyback worse than a dividend? Both are a form of delivering ROI, it just happens that one is better for shareholders due to the tax system.

In fact if airlines had actually reinvested that money, they would be even more fucked up than they are now. At least now they have free cash flow to make a temporary drop in revenue hurt less. Reinvesting money in the corporate world often involves converting cash flow into debt, which they’re probably going to have to do now to meet their existing financial obligations. Much better than if they were midway through financing some large fleet expansion and had less FCF on hand to weather the travel slowdown

replies(2): >>majorm+qw >>boombo+Uw
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41. ksec+yo[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:53:36
>>totalZ+de
Except if they reinvest back to Customer they would still have the same problem today.

And generally speaking better leg room, amenities, and services dont sell more tickets. Your competitor will be gaining on you via even lower price. As shown by all the budget Airline. It was the customer than decides the more expensive plane ticket wasn't worth it.

I am not sure I have a solution to this problem.

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42. opport+Ko[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:55:48
>>yahyah+Za
Just to play devils advocate... this has the potential to cause an absolutely massive liquidity crunch. All debt is an asset - all payments on debt are a positive number in some investment portfolio/banks/etc balance sheets (eg a bond).

If everybody stopped paying debts and rent, the financial industry could crash overnight as suddenly nobody has the cash flow to pay each other any more. And that would trickle down immediately - not only as banks and property management groups go out of business, but in property tax revenues, pensions, people on fixed incomes, and then all the second and third order effects: insurance and reinsurance, massive market panics, etc. It sounds nice on an individual basis but the risk is insanely huge

replies(2): >>ksec+ep >>jhaywa+3J
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43. ksec+Mo[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:56:21
>>ucario+l9
>To that end, any French company at risk of going under will be allowed to stop paying rent and taxes during the shutdown

Wow!. Thank you I have argued that in crisis rent along with many other contract obligation should be exempted. I cant believe a government has actually done it.

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44. ksec+ep[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 00:59:49
>>opport+Ko
I agree but I see this as a problem we could fix using financial tools. Rather than letting thousands if not millions of small business and jobs completely gone.
replies(1): >>opport+Tq
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45. Marsym+Ep[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 01:02:55
>>ksec+Dn
> Ignoring Tech industry, most companies on earth could not withstand a 70% drop in revenue.

How many tech companies have withstood a 70% drop in revenue? BlackBerry comes to mind.

replies(2): >>derisi+WJ >>ehnto+ZU
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46. prosto+pq[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 01:09:49
>>asdff+5k
I don't have any visibility into the supply chain, but LATimes suggests the supply chain for at least toilet paper are operating normally https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-03-14/coronaviru...

It's partially due to hoarding, partially due to panic buying, and partially due to the lockdown of many schools and businesses, which caused most eating+drinking+related activity to move home, raising household demands on food and toilet paper above normal.

Also, if you're supposed to show your face in public as infrequently as possible, then instead of 10 shopping trips you're better off making 1 shopping trip buying 10x the stuff. Which exacerbates availability.

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47. opport+Tq[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 01:13:28
>>ksec+ep
Or face a total financial system meltdown if the fix is poorly implemented.

I think the simplest solution is for the fed/government to simply give everybody cash, since the root of the problem is that a lot of people have temporarily lost their incomes due to their jobs being essentially banned in response to the pandemic (eg a lot of people in retail outside of supermarkets/food). Anything that involves nonpayment is extremely risky

replies(1): >>ksec+BG
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48. opport+qr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 01:17:47
>>social+u5
At an aggregate level it can make more sense to leave X% of units vacant than to lower prices (which could have effects on the rate you can charge with the rest of your units). I think it’s an example of our financial system not working as intended.

For example let’s say I have a 100 unit apartment building. If I maintain a 20% vacancy rate target I can charge an average of $1000/mo/unit. But to set a price at which my vacancies get filled very quickly, to hit a 5% vacancy rate, maybe I need to charge $700/mo/unit. In that case I’m making less money than before - $80k/mo vs $66.5k/mo.

replies(1): >>leetcr+Rw1
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49. a3n+1s[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 01:22:12
>>totalZ+de
> A buyback is a form of capital return to shareholders.

> Improvements in leg room, amenities, services, infrastructure, etc, are a form of capital return to customers.

And bailouts are a form of wealth redistribution from people of modest means to wealthy executives and investors who, it turns out, are actually not willing to shoulder the risk associated with passive profits.

> That's not to say the airlines don't care about the little guy.

They actually like the little guy, you can fit more of them on a plane.

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50. former+ou[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 01:44:11
>>totalZ+de
You should at least mention the criteria for returning capital to shareholders - no NPV positive projects available. We can debate whether or not that is true but it’s not fair to just say “they should have reinvested in the business instead of returning capital”.
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51. yuliyp+0v[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 01:53:29
>>ksec+Dn
Anything where there isn't something else limiting supply (prestige, luxury, brand, IP rights, network effects, zoning) is going to have slim profit margins. That includes most goods and commodities. That means that "Big Revenue and Slim Profit Margin" are going to be the companies providing commodity services to most people. If you want small revenue large profit margin air travel, you're looking at charter and luxury, for instance.
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52. majorm+qw[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 02:05:26
>>opport+Zn
I don't understand who buybacks are better for. A dividend would've returned money to all the people who held onto shares and wasn't paying attention to how much they should be selling off to capture the buyback and just had all the gains wiped out...
replies(2): >>opport+1y >>toast0+qO
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53. boombo+Uw[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 02:08:34
>>opport+Zn
>it just happens that one is better for shareholders due to the tax system.

This would make buybacks worse than dividends for everyone who isn't a shareholder.

replies(1): >>opport+9x
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54. opport+9x[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 02:10:56
>>boombo+Uw
Sure. Just like it's worse for everybody that I try to max my investments in my 401k before contributing to after tax accounts.
replies(2): >>boombo+Fy >>lmm+bM
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55. opport+1y[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 02:19:27
>>majorm+qw
Absent a market selloff, they're better for shareholders for two reasons: one, it manifests earnings as capital gains/stock appreciation rather than dividends, and two, it has positive future ROI.

Point 1 is not super important because of the existence of qualified dividends.

Point 2 is like this: let's say I'm a company with 1000 outstanding shares valued at $100 each and want to pay a yearly dividend (for simplicity) of $5/share. All market movements notwithstanding and absent any changes, that means I'm basically giving investors a 5% yearly ROI. But, let's say I instead bought back my shares with all my earnings. The first year, I buy back 5% of the outstanding shares. Now there are 950 outstanding shares and total earnings are still $5000/year. Next year each remaining shareholder gets an extra 5% of earnings per share (this compounds). And rather than pay tax each year on dividends, shareholders defer all their taxes until they exit their position.

One argument is that dividends aren't really worse in this case because investors could still choose to spend the cash on purchasing more shares, accomplishing the same thing. But the deferred taxes change the math.

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56. boombo+Fy[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 02:24:41
>>opport+9x
There's a fairly noticeable difference in scale here for a start, but everyone benefits from you not needing outside assistance in your old age.
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57. vonmol+gz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 02:28:52
>>taurat+nn
Grocery stores in my part of northern New Jersey are not keeping up, at the moment. On Saturday I was unable to buy fresh meat (of any kind), sausage (without cheese in it), flour, pasta, or canned beans. Produce pickings were slim, and most items were sold out. Ditto canned soup and bread. That's just the things I was actually looking for; there were plenty of other bare shelves throughout the store.
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58. vonmol+vz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 02:30:02
>>Vector+E8
I can't even place an Amazon Fresh order right now, and the earliest Peapod delivery date I can get is 28MAR.
replies(1): >>sjg007+Cb1
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59. ksec+BG[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 03:34:56
>>opport+Tq
That is actually a great argument. Directly injecting liquidity to citizens. At roughly 200M adults in the US, $2000 per adults would be $400B. Except $2000 doesn't really last long.....
replies(1): >>devdas+Hk5
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60. jhaywa+3J[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 04:01:47
>>opport+Ko
Where do you see Macron saying payments are stopping? Why would we assume France would do the dumbest, most damaging thing possible rather than something easy and healthy, like monetizing a fiscal stimulus of direct payments?
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61. derisi+WJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 04:12:42
>>Marsym+Ep
Maybe AMD?
replies(1): >>Marsym+nM
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62. michae+vL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 04:28:08
>>umeshu+Hc
Quite literally the opposite of the situation in California, but go off.
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63. michae+IL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 04:30:49
>>_jal+gd
If that's the case, if they are that necessary for society, then nationalization should be on the table.
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64. lmm+bM[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 04:35:44
>>opport+9x
That tax incentive was set up deliberately. It's socially valuable for people to have retirement savings, so the rest of us are happy to subsidise you in that saving.

Buybacks are an accident of tax law and ought to be taxed the same way as dividends.

replies(1): >>Anthon+kQ
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65. lmm+jM[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 04:37:52
>>majorm+ca
Put a land value tax in place, and then the incentive to hold property for speculation goes away, in favour of selling it to people who can use it productively.
replies(1): >>Walter+gw2
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66. Marsym+nM[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 04:38:11
>>derisi+WJ
30% over 4 years from their peak. Still a pretty big drop. (RIM/BlackBerry has been a 95% drop over 9 years, and hasn't stopped yet, but looks to be levelling off.)
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67. groby_+IN[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 04:55:23
>>maest+9e
Honest answer: No, because that would mean to return to Hobbesian world.

Taxes are a way to pay for communal goods. We don't pay enough of them - our obsession with cutting them is part and parcel of the disastrous response to SARS2-CoV.

I very much like having a government that can step in during emergencies and distribute the load. I like living in a society where we care about other people to.

Abolishing taxes is strictly "me first, fuck the rest". I suggest people who like this approach try living in Somalia for a while, that's their desired end state.

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68. groby_+0O[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 04:58:18
>>asdff+5k
The social contract didn't "evaporate" - it was never followed by the richer half, and at some point, people got tired of being shat upon.

I suggest we start addressing inequalities and maybe all cut back a bit and share the burden, instead of hoarding now and then being surprised that the people unable to hoard object to that idea when nothing is left for them, at all. That means taking care of the working class and the homeless, too.

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69. toast0+qO[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 05:02:32
>>majorm+qw
In the absence of taxes, a buyback is equivilent to a dividend with automatic reinvestment.

It's better as a shareholder in many cases to be able to control when you recognize the gain from the return to investors.

replies(1): >>mrscot+as2
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70. Anthon+kQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 05:23:43
>>lmm+bM
> Buybacks are an accident of tax law and ought to be taxed the same way as dividends.

The problem is it's really the other way around -- reinvested dividends should be taxed like buybacks, i.e. taxed when the purchased shares are sold.

By contrast, taxing buybacks like current dividends would create a really grisly incentive for corporations to hoard a giant pile of money, since that would be the remaining way to defer the tax. This is already what international corporations do with offshore profits because of a similar incentive to defer corporate income tax, and it's a huge problem.

We have a policy of allowing people to avoid tax on investment gains until the investments are cashed out -- this is what a 401k is all about. We might as well make it consistent across the board so it stops creating all of these perverse incentives. (That would reduce the amount of tax collected, but it would also remove most of the justification for taxing capital gains at a lower rate than earned income, so changing both at once would about balance out.)

replies(1): >>lmm+rR
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71. lmm+rR[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 05:36:16
>>Anthon+kQ
I'd actually go the other route: tax investment gains like any other income, at the time when they happen, and then the incentive to do buybacks or cash hoarding goes away.
replies(1): >>Anthon+aT
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72. fragme+CR[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 05:38:23
>>taurat+P1
That's not true. at the very least, Walmart is open, does deliveries, and doesn't charge a monthly fee, unlike Amazon Prime!
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73. Anthon+aT[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 05:58:54
>>lmm+rR
Then you have two new problems, because a lot of investments (e.g. real estate, small businesses) aren't liquid, and you don't necessarily know the value at any given time.

If you own a restaurant and a sports stadium opens next door which causes the value of the land to double overnight, you'd suddenly owe $50,000 in capital gains tax, but what if you don't have $50,000 in cash? You'd have to sell your restaurant to pay the tax on it.

If you write some software for your small business and start to license it to people for $50 each, how much is your corporation which owns the copyright now worth? Ten thousand dollars? Ten billion dollars? It depends how many copies you expect to sell. But the government would have to appraise it. What do you do if they appraise it as worth tens of millions of dollars? You'd immediately owe more than a million dollars in capital gains tax, but it's on the appraised value of an asset that may not turn into that much revenue for years -- or at all. And with no guarantee you could even find anyone willing to pay you that much for the business.

There are good reasons not to collect the tax until the investment is converted to cash.

replies(1): >>lmm+UO4
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74. ehnto+ZU[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 06:20:38
>>Marsym+Ep
The tech industry has plenty of companies with laughable revenue compared to their investment capital, I'm sure those will be fine.
replies(1): >>Marsym+DY1
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75. mxcros+631[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 08:07:03
>>onlyre+xh
I also think it’s ridiculous for people to want these companies to store up money for a rainy day, while at the same time keeping interest rates incredibly low.
replies(1): >>supdat+4s1
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76. swiley+b51[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 08:32:18
>>Walter+b2
The building I live in has a sitting space on the roof I’ve been working from while waiting for the internet to get installed in my apartment (I didn’t think I’d need it so I waited and now I’m regretting it.) One of the other people teleworking from up there is an accountant(?) for a major airline who has been for the past couple days trying to figure out how to keep it from going under. It’s kind of sad hearing all the phone calls he’s making sorting things out like older pilots trying to retire and so on.
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77. pergad+h51[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 08:32:50
>>onlyre+xh
It's not the that ruined them, but we see another classic transfer from the state (=people) to the wealthy.

The correct thing would be to nationalise them if they go bankrupt, not to bail out the investors that earned money with the explicit expectation of risk.

And I say that having lost 10k in stock value in the past month. Still my fault and my risk and I don't deserve to be bailed out for it.

replies(2): >>himinl+B51 >>mav3ri+Hj1
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78. himinl+B51[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 08:36:52
>>pergad+h51
It's a form of insurance payment, wherein the insurer of last resort (the state) covers what private insurers don't because they can't.

No insurance policy covers war. This is pretty much like a war. It's uninsurable because it affects everyone.

Bailouts in 2020 are not gifts to the reckless rich like in 2008, they're like the Marshall plan.

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79. sjg007+hb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 09:46:28
>>parham+bb
Wells Fargo literally stole their customers money.
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80. thathn+wb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 09:49:07
>>_jal+gd
You let them fail and wipe out the shareholders. Let the shareholders cover debts. Forgive the rest of the debt. Wipe out the management team as well.

Airline comes out nimble and debt free. Average Joe still has airline competition. Shareholders get wiped out, but that’s the risk you run for yield.

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81. sjg007+Cb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 09:50:22
>>vonmol+vz
It's kind of strange to see a complete breakdown in online ordering and delivery of groceries. Target etc... basically shut down curbside delivery because they need people to restock shelves. That means you have to visit the store. Odd. I expect to see grocery only delivery companies really take shape soon (like Instacart).
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82. mav3ri+Hj1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 11:26:53
>>pergad+h51
Every time things are nationalized, people eventually clamor for privatization. Govts can rarely run corporations.
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83. supdat+4s1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 12:41:48
>>mxcros+631
How so? How are these two concepts related?
replies(1): >>onlyre+px1
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84. leetcr+ww1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 13:19:13
>>fiblye+L4
they prefer to leave the building empty in anticipation of a higher priced long-term lease in the future. if you're already renting space to a profitable business that was stable before the crisis, the incentives are probably to work out an arrangement with the business that helps it not go under. now if you're already unsatisfied with the current tenant, you might see now as a good opportunity to kick them out and wait for someone willing to pay a higher price.
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85. leetcr+Rw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 13:21:31
>>opport+qr
why wouldn't you just price discriminate through short-term concessions to fill the remaining 20% and increase revenue? this seems to be what most apartment buildings around me actually do.
replies(1): >>opport+dO2
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86. leetcr+ax1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 13:23:43
>>prosto+Ua
imagine how many employees would be needed to support curb-side pickup at walmart at anything like the stores current throughput. judging by the number of people I see pushing two full carts through the checkout line, you might even need more than one employee for each simultaneous pickup transaction.
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87. onlyre+px1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 13:26:00
>>supdat+4s1
Theoretically, you lower interest rates to encourage investment, not the hoarding of cash.
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88. tomato+LA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 13:53:42
>>oarabb+qi
Businesses typically carry insurance (including business interruption insurance) and unused credit lines for this type of risk, not cash. Governments typically then provide some form of insurance for risks which are commercially uninsurable like war. I think Covid probably falls into that category fairly comfortably.
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89. tomato+HB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 14:01:09
>>Walter+I2
If you think the mall won't survive anyway, then this calculation changes though and instead you look to recoup as much as you can in the short term. Ordinarily this is a good thing because it forces unviable businesses to cease trading and the people and resources can be redeployed into something more productive (and in many countries at an individual level the people will receive help from the government to do this without ruining their lives).

The idea here is to minimise the long term damage caused by people being forced into liquidation as a route to recoup losses and increase protection for individuals who are also temporarily affected.

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90. Marsym+DY1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 16:09:10
>>ehnto+ZU
Not suggesting they won't be! I'm just curious about historical cases.
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91. mrscot+as2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 18:15:09
>>toast0+qO
Hilarious but probably time to leave this site...I got down voted into oblivion for pointing out the US economy would probably collapse due to repo operations 44 days ago...

Too bad, I guess anyone thinking outside the box and pointing out that our herd is going off a cliff is problematic...

replies(1): >>toast0+aM2
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92. Walter+gw2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 18:34:29
>>lmm+jM
> Put a land value tax in place

We already have that. I pay huge property taxes every year and so does everyone else who owns land.

replies(1): >>lmm+GZ3
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93. missed+oz2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 18:48:09
>>reaper+ri
...and it was true then
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94. toast0+aM2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 19:43:22
>>mrscot+as2
The economy may be very well on its way to collapse, but I don't think it's because of the repo operations.
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95. opport+dO2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-17 19:53:07
>>leetcr+Rw1
That is what people do sometimes (esp. in SF where you'll get "2 months free rent"). But I think in commercial real estate the math is a bit different because leases tend to be longer - so you really don't want to budge on the actual monthly rate and even 1-2 months free doesn't end up helping the prospective tenant that much
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96. lmm+GZ3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-18 06:11:46
>>Walter+gw2
Not the same thing. Property taxes based on the improved value of the land create a perverse incentive to avoid making improvements, and California prop 8 and similar laws encourage people to hold property as long as possible rather than sell to people who could make better use of it.
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97. lmm+UO4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-18 14:51:43
>>Anthon+aT
Right, but none of those problems exist for listed stocks, which trade liquidly and can be readily converted back and forth to cash - indeed that's the whole reason a buyback works. I believe tax law already has a class of things that are considered cash-like - foreign currencies, bullion, that sort of thing - perhaps a good first step would be treating liquid stocks the same way.
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98. devdas+Hk5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-18 17:42:21
>>ksec+BG
Cut the military budget, you can save a lot of money that way.
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99. devdas+zl5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-18 17:46:42
>>_jal+gd
The government buys the airlines after they declare bankruptcy. Sell them to the highest bidder when the market recovers.
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