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1. lawnch+(OP)[view] [source] 2019-07-16 14:33:20
Looks good for Google to me. These protests were getting out of hand, and their demands were showing some major entitlement.
replies(3): >>geofft+c >>KirinD+N2 >>UncleM+09
2. geofft+c[view] [source] 2019-07-16 14:34:13
>>lawnch+(OP)
They're the people making Google work. Why shouldn't they be entitled?
replies(2): >>el_nah+t2 >>qntty+33
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3. el_nah+t2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 14:47:48
>>geofft+c
Because Google gives them money in exchange for said work.
replies(2): >>lallys+q3 >>qntty+F3
4. KirinD+N2[view] [source] 2019-07-16 14:49:10
>>lawnch+(OP)
You don't understand Google culture if you think this line would fly with anyone there. Entitlement for full time employees is baked into the charter, along with transparency. That's a good thing and a bad thing, in different ways. It gave bad actors a lot of autonomy, but it also exposed them to scrutiny and pushback from good actors.

What's surprising is that now these reprisals are trying to push that back to make Google more like other normal companies and organizational structures.

replies(4): >>0815te+W6 >>fourth+e8 >>lawnch+u9 >>xyzzyz+eu
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5. qntty+33[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 14:50:38
>>geofft+c
Some people think the leaders of Google are entitled to unilaterally decide what people at Google work on, and if you resist that sense of entitlement, people call you entitled.
replies(3): >>lawnch+V9 >>jlawso+1a >>mkohlm+Ha
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6. lallys+q3[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 14:52:45
>>el_nah+t2
A sense of entitlement is part of Googler culture. The inside joke was that this was measured for interviewing candidates.
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7. qntty+F3[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 14:54:36
>>el_nah+t2
And Google employees do the work that keeps the company going. There's no law that says that people can't refuse to do certain kinds of work. You take a job that you expect to give you work that you find acceptable and if that expectation is violated, you resist.
replies(1): >>el_nah+n6
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8. el_nah+n6[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:12:14
>>qntty+F3
s/resist/quit
replies(2): >>geofft+a7 >>qntty+7a
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9. 0815te+W6[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:14:40
>>KirinD+N2
> It gave bad actors a lot of autonomy, but it also exposed them to scrutiny and pushback from good actors.

So far, we've seen quite a bit of the former and very little of the latter. Google's work culture seems to have become politically divisive to a rather surprising extent - if this is what "entitlement" boils down to, surely a more "normal" structure (though I'd settle for just a marginal increase in professionalism, similar to what we see in other "grassroots-led" organizations) can't be all that bad!

replies(1): >>KirinD+w7
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10. geofft+a7[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:16:00
>>el_nah+n6
Nope, you negotiate the terms of your employment first. This is just negotiation.
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11. KirinD+w7[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:18:13
>>0815te+W6
I agree!

The victories are small and recent. The exposure of executive sexism, The push back against military contractors, and the recent pride petitions are modest victories at best, and they've come with a heavy price.

Still, many other major tech companies lack a list at all, despite every indication of facing similar issues.

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12. fourth+e8[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:22:21
>>KirinD+N2
This is the big point.

It's true that it is not normal for employees to be able to speak against their company (or express strong opinions publicly).

Yet Google has always prided itself on being different in having outspoken employees.

This is why it looks bad for Google when it's just business as usual everywhere else.

13. UncleM+09[view] [source] 2019-07-16 15:26:59
>>lawnch+(OP)
"Don't pay out millions of dollars to people who were asked to quietly resign after harassing employees" is major entitlement?
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14. lawnch+u9[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:29:36
>>KirinD+N2
Everyone I know at Google hates these “protests” and can’t stand the entitlement. It sounds to me like they are a vocal minority.

This has nothing to do with transparency and speaking out against your employer. The issue is not that they have a voice, it’s how they choose to use it.

replies(2): >>KirinD+2d >>tptace+sF
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15. lawnch+V9[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:32:26
>>qntty+33
Seriously? Leaders who hired you and pay you are entitled to direct your work. What planet are you from?
replies(2): >>qntty+lb >>geofft+Er
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16. jlawso+1a[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:33:10
>>qntty+33
If you're the one paying for the work, you're entitled to say what the work will be. In this case 'you' is Google shareholders, through their representatives.

Nobody is entitled to be paid to do what they choose. If you want to do something for your own personal reasons, do it off the clock.

replies(1): >>qntty+Xa
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17. qntty+7a[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:33:49
>>el_nah+n6
That would be senseless. Neither employees nor management would like that. Why do you think you should be able to tell them how to deal with each other?
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18. mkohlm+Ha[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:37:28
>>qntty+33
That's.. how... employment.... works.....?
replies(1): >>qntty+3b
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19. qntty+Xa[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:39:38
>>jlawso+1a
There's no good reason to think like this. If you're the one doing the work, you're entitled to say collectively with your fellow employees what it should be.
replies(1): >>jlawso+Uw
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20. qntty+3b[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:40:02
>>mkohlm+Ha
You can't get an ought from an is.
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21. qntty+lb[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:42:07
>>lawnch+V9
Sorry I was taught as a kid that just power is derived from the consent of the governed. Must be weird for some people.
replies(1): >>geodel+zI
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22. KirinD+2d[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 15:53:30
>>lawnch+u9
There are several people from Google here speaking out in support and literally thousands of people stood with the walkout.

So it doesn't seem like a "small minority" unless you know a hell of a lot of people.

replies(1): >>lawnch+MD
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23. geofft+Er[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 17:34:13
>>lawnch+V9
The planet where the people making a thing happen are the most valuable ones. Ask anyone from Ayn Rand to Karl Marx.
replies(1): >>ddalex+CA2
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24. xyzzyz+eu[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 17:49:32
>>KirinD+N2
You don't understand Google culture if you think this line would fly with anyone there. Entitlement for full time employees is baked into the charter, along with transparency.

This part of Google culture is long dead. It used to exist, but it doesn't anymore. There's no transparency anymore, and large factor of ending it was strategic leaks by employees, who hoped to achieved their goals by getting media attention. The entitlement is also gone in the era of cost-cutting by ruthless Ruth. The company you're thinking about entered senescence somewhere around 2012-2013 and died in 2015-2016.

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25. jlawso+Uw[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 18:08:29
>>qntty+Xa
You are completely in your rights to get together with your fellow employees - or anyone else - to do anything you want.

And others are entitled not to pay you to do things they don't want you to do.

Nobody is forced to do things they don't want.

Nobody is forced to pay money to others.

But employment is an agreement between people. The employer agrees to pay, and the other agrees to follow directions of the employer (within the limits of their specific agreement).

If you go to a restaurant and order a burger, and they instead bring you a cake, you'd be well within your rights to refuse payment and complain. The fact that the chef wanted to make a cake is irrelevant, because the chef is being paid by you. (In contrast, if you were to go to friend's house, and he gave you a cake, you could not complain because you're not paying for it.)

replies(1): >>qntty+nx
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26. qntty+nx[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 18:12:54
>>jlawso+Uw
The value created by employees rightfully belongs to employees and should be created on their terms. It isn't employees who are hired by managers, it's managers who are hired by employees to manage and sell the things they create. Employees ought to have the right to dictate the terms that their managers are being hired on.
replies(2): >>userna+xA >>jlawso+kU
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27. userna+xA[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 18:34:09
>>qntty+nx
If you want an equal relationship then go work for shares in a startup with no salary, however most workers favors certain money. Employment agreements as they look today fundamentally favors the employee over the employer, you are trading certain value "an exact amount of $$$ per month" for uncertain value "some unspecified amount work might get produced which maybe can get transformed to money in the future". If the uncertain value produced is too low then the company has no reason to continue betting on your future, so they end the agreement.
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28. lawnch+MD[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 18:56:33
>>KirinD+2d
1000 employees is 1%. Even if 10,000 showed up, which they did not, that is still a small minority.
replies(1): >>KirinD+yL
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29. tptace+sF[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 19:11:05
>>lawnch+u9
You seem to know weird subsets of people at different companies. If we weren't ostensibly in the same field, I wouldn't comment (because of course two random people on HN would know different people at Google). But we are, and the Google security people I talk to are more supportive of the protests; several are now on the job market because of it.

I feel pretty comfortable with how representative the people I talk to are of Google product security and vulnerability research, for whatever that's worth to you.

replies(1): >>lawnch+nJ
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30. geodel+zI[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 19:37:24
>>qntty+lb
Seems as adult you are not taught the difference between governed and employed.
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31. lawnch+nJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 19:42:44
>>tptace+sF
Yes, it’s definitely me that knows “weird subsets” of people, whatever that is supposed to mean. You’re immune to bubbles, and I am in one, right? Or is that a sneaky way of saying, “The people I know don’t think that, so I suspect you made that up”?

This is a silly thread, but for what it’s worth, I have not talked to anyone at Google in a security role about this issue.

I’ll be more blunt. I am highly skeptical that anyone in security there quit their job over the protests. But, I have no reason to doubt that your sample supports the protests.

Do keep in mind though that most people who don’t support them are keenly aware that going near any activism topic, especially at Google, is personal and professional jeopardy. Many people think they can’t even debate these things without running the risk of being on the receiving end of the scorched earth tactics employed by activists. And I’m not even talking about conservatives (of whom I know very few in tech, if any).

It’s not that they think it’s great that Rubin got dumptrucks of money, but the mentality is that if you take any issue with any of the demands or tactics, or the frequency with which they dominate the focus of employees trying to do their work, you’re suddenly a misogynistic transphobic racist enemy of the people.

replies(1): >>tptace+2W
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32. KirinD+yL[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 19:59:05
>>lawnch+MD
Unfortunately I cannot reveal real numbers to reveal the breakdown, but even a cursory modeling of this with Bayesian techniques suggests more than a tiny minority of people hold the sentiment in question.
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33. jlawso+kU[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 21:04:40
>>qntty+nx
Each person has the right to dictate what economic arrangements they will participate in. This does not mean they have the right to dictate what arrangements other people will participate in.
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34. tptace+2W[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-16 21:17:40
>>lawnch+nJ
The people I'm talking about aren't reserving their true feelings about the protests so as to avoid triggering the libs. They're DM'ing me unbidden about how unhappy they are with Google.
replies(1): >>lawnch+ky2
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35. lawnch+ky2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-17 15:05:44
>>tptace+2W
The people I’m talking about are. Both at Google and elsewhere. And they are libs.

Then again, a surprisingly large number of Google employees don’t seem to understand that they work for an advertising company.

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36. ddalex+CA2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-17 15:17:11
>>geofft+Er
But Meredith was not making things happening for their employer, at least not in the way that they hired her to do.
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