zlacker

[parent] [thread] 36 comments
1. DonHop+(OP)[view] [source] 2019-07-05 13:01:31
When I saw this title, I first thought it was about understanding the cockroach-like aliens in Factorio, but it is actually about queuing and congestion and parallel processing with conveyor belts and factories!

With the caveat that Factorio is EXTREMELY addictive, properly described as "programmer crack", here are some other Factorio related discussions:

Factorio – a game where you can automate basically anything (factorio.com)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11266471

http://www.factorio.com/

"This game is like crack for programmers." -kentonv (Tech lead for Cloudflare Workers, author of Sandstorm.io, Cap'n Proto)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11269098

Raycasting engine in Factorio game – Facto-RayO v1.0 [video] (youtube.com)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19878688

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lVAFcDX4eM

Factorio to talk about horizontal scaling of software services (medium.com)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19095271

https://medium.com/@chrisfauerbach/gamification-of-horizonta...

Mapping Factorio with Leaflet (cloudflare.com)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18185058

https://blog.cloudflare.com/mapping-factorio-with-leaflet/

replies(4): >>TeMPOr+JF >>X6S1x6+oG >>saint-+yQ >>Baeocy+UU
2. TeMPOr+JF[view] [source] 2019-07-05 18:45:41
>>DonHop+(OP)
Some random Factorio-themed things of my own:

https://imgur.com/c51pTnP - here I tried to invent a way to solve the accessibility issues of moving walkways; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17703131 for context.

https://mastodon.technology/@temporal/100646861775747986 - Factorio-inspired tootstorm about what I'd like to see in an IDE/debugger.

3. X6S1x6+oG[view] [source] 2019-07-05 18:49:36
>>DonHop+(OP)
Pretty off topic, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't use "____ crack" as a way to describe something that is addictive.
replies(2): >>dEnigm+aL >>DonHop+IL
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4. dEnigm+aL[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-05 19:25:08
>>X6S1x6+oG
Why? Isn't crack famously (or infamously) addictive?
replies(3): >>klyrs+Ul1 >>ZeroGr+AF1 >>X6S1x6+Ko3
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5. DonHop+IL[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-05 19:30:17
>>X6S1x6+oG
I coined the nickname "Deep Crack" for the EFF's DES cracker. I hope that's not objectionable. The first key's free!

    Coming into Los Angeles
    Bringing in a couple of keys
    But don't touch my bags if you please
    Mister Customs Man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFF_DES_cracker

https://www.donhopkins.com/home/archive/humor/deep-crack.txt

6. saint-+yQ[view] [source] 2019-07-05 20:09:29
>>DonHop+(OP)
Oh my, can someone ping Gwern to add Factorio to this list. https://www.gwern.net/Turing-complete
replies(1): >>Gauntl+UT
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7. Gauntl+UT[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-05 20:35:51
>>saint-+yQ
There's neither surprise nor accident in Factorio's Turing completeness. The developers were aware of and fans of the existence of proofs of games on that list (Transport Tycoon is a particular example that they intentionally modeled train mechanics from)
replies(1): >>seaish+RW
8. Baeocy+UU[view] [source] 2019-07-05 20:42:40
>>DonHop+(OP)
Pro-tip to others who think 'Programmer Crack' is hyperbole- it is not.

Factorio does have a rather steep learning curve, and the UI is not the most intuitive. But. Once how it works clicks, it clicks, and suddenly morning. And I'm in my 40's, I'd thought my days of unexpected overnights while working on fascinating problems were mostly behind me. Highly recommended, but be aware.

replies(7): >>mabbo+K31 >>lucb1e+S51 >>novok+Xe1 >>rishav+jq1 >>hatsun+3A1 >>fredle+aB1 >>ummonk+fC1
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9. seaish+RW[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-05 20:57:53
>>Gauntl+UT
Obviously the circuit system is Turing complete on purpose, but I believe the belts and splitters may be Turing complete on their own, which would definitely be accidental and surprising to most.
replies(1): >>pengua+y91
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10. mabbo+K31[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-05 22:06:22
>>Baeocy+UU
I had to uninstall it last weekend because I came to realize my playing it was no longer healthy. I mean, that sounds funny, but I'm being totally serious. I've had a few games like that in my life, and I've come to recognize a few signs that what I'm doing is not good for me anymore.

But wow, what a great game.

replies(2): >>GaryNu+U81 >>jjjens+Pv1
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11. lucb1e+S51[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-05 22:31:22
>>Baeocy+UU
> Factorio does have a rather steep learning curve

Not... at all? I mean, Vim has a steep learning curve[1]. Factorio is a game meant for the masses.

Of course any game is hard to master, but in that case any game that is not made for 3 year olds has a steep learning curve. You won't know how to set up and manage a 1kspm factory from day one, but that's okay, you can start by exploring and have a lot of fun doing that.

[1] (if you ignore that you can just start by hitting "i" and save with "<esc>:wq" and you have an ordinary editor, but that's not the point.)

replies(2): >>vlunkr+l61 >>DonHop+ns1
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12. vlunkr+l61[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-05 22:36:38
>>lucb1e+S51
The fact that you would even consider comparing the controls of a video game to vim probably means it’s not the most intuitive.
replies(1): >>derefr+fd1
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13. GaryNu+U81[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-05 23:02:36
>>mabbo+K31
Whenever they release a new version, I'll boot it up and waste the better part of a weekend to get another mega-base running. Always satisfying
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14. pengua+y91[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-05 23:10:10
>>seaish+RW
with filter splitters being a thing now, I think they would be, yes.
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15. derefr+fd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 00:05:20
>>vlunkr+l61
I think the parent was assuming "steep learning curve" here was qualified as "for a piece of software used by programmers"; while the people that downvoted them assume "steep learning curve" here was qualified as "for a game." It is certainly easy to learn compared to a code-base; it is certainly hard to learn compared to Bejeweled.

Mind you, compared to other “programming games” like e.g. Shenzhen I/O, the main gameplay loop of Factorio is quite a bit simpler to wrap your head around. It's only when you try to ultra-optimize everything that it reaches that level of complexity. (Or when you "program in Factorio", ala "programming in Minecraft.")

replies(1): >>lucb1e+rH1
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16. novok+Xe1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 00:34:27
>>Baeocy+UU
I tried factorio several times and it didn't click for me as a 'crack' game. And I'm a software engineer, and I've loved computers since I was 5, and I spend most of my free time on my computer.

I didn't learn to write code until I was in my late teens although. Ultimately I've found factorio a rather tedious game, that kind of reminds me of my job. I also tend to not code things for fun, seeing how it will ultimately turn into a large project I won't have time to maintain. Kind of like how mechanics don't like maintaining their own cars.

It makes me wonder sometimes.

replies(1): >>bluebl+jn1
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17. klyrs+Ul1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 02:34:39
>>dEnigm+aL
My understanding is that it's similar to people taking offense at the term "grammar nazi" because it trivializes an atrocity
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18. bluebl+jn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 02:58:41
>>novok+Xe1
What do you find motivating in software engineering?

I initially found Factorio interesting, mostly for the parts that encourage spreadsheet calculation, e.g. balancing the various rates of production and resource intake. Some other aspects appealed too, such as finding drill placements to fully cover ore deposits.

Where I lost interest is when the game became mostly about refactoring large transport belt networks. That reminds me of the non-fun aspects of programming.

replies(1): >>Baeocy+4E1
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19. rishav+jq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 03:45:38
>>Baeocy+UU
Factorio is also the only game on Steam that i know of, that has thousands of reviews and its rating is"Overwhelmingly Positive". It just might be the highest rated game on Steam and it hasn't even left Early Access.
replies(1): >>Faark+pw1
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20. DonHop+ns1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 04:15:07
>>lucb1e+S51
Pfff! The only vi command anyone ever needs to learn is :q! ;)
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21. jjjens+Pv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 05:06:53
>>mabbo+K31
I've only had 2 games like that in my life, EverQuest (also called EverCrack) and Factorio (also called Programmer Crack). I had to go cold turkey or I was skipping the gym and meals and not sleeping!
replies(2): >>Baeocy+oE1 >>mabbo+9M1
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22. Faark+pw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 05:17:02
>>rishav+jq1
> It just might be the highest rated game on Steam

Indeed the second best positive percentage according to steamdb: https://steamdb.info/stats/gameratings/

No 29 if you just sort by positive reviews.

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23. hatsun+3A1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 06:24:00
>>Baeocy+UU
0.17 made the UI not crap. Gotta enable it through the game beta opt-ins.
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24. fredle+aB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 06:48:21
>>Baeocy+UU
I think the reason for this is that it pushes all the buttons your programmer brain wants pushed: designing building and debugging systems with a strong focus on optimisation. However it doesn't contain meetings, sprints, language oddities, politics or any of the stuff that makes normal programming less fun.
replies(1): >>twic+eb2
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25. ummonk+fC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 07:10:47
>>Baeocy+UU
I can't stand Factorio and find it too tedious and exhausting, which is probably related to why I find coding to be a chore, despite being a talented software engineer.
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26. Baeocy+4E1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 07:47:55
>>bluebl+jn1
I never particularly cared about belt optimization past 'good enough'. I spent most of my time trying to break things and find edge-cases in the control system. Working around the (purposefully nerfed to keep them from being too powerful) logistics bots issues was probably my favorite thing to tackle.

(That, and building vast quantities of artillery in the middle of almost fully red zones, then flipping the power switch for the loaders and watching the fun. :D)

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27. Baeocy+oE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 07:54:56
>>jjjens+Pv1
One thing I credit Factorio for (and I am not joking at all when I say this, despite how ridiculous the statement might seem) is learning to be a little more understanding about folks that deal with addictions. I've never had a problem not doing something to excess, so I never really understood people who do. But when I first discovered Factorio a few years back, there were enough times where I didn't do $ActuallyRatherImportantThingX because I was allllmost done with some aspect of a megabase to give me pause.

There are lots of games I can play for a specified amount of time and be fine with it. Pretty much all of them, really. Factorio, I get annoyed if pulled away in the middle of a project. So now I know to not even start unless it's free time for the rest of the night.

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28. ZeroGr+AF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 08:22:41
>>dEnigm+aL
I agree with the (apparently unpopular) notion and I avoid describing things as "x crack" and wince a bit when people use it as it seems a bit tone-deaf and childish, like referring to something you don't like that there's too much of as "programmer AIDS" or a bad design as a "UI Holocaust" or a failed project as an "abortion" or a bad sports defeat as being "raped", all of which make a similar kind of allegorical sense but are more obviously tacky.

For whatever reason crack allusions are a bad taste joke that people (unlike most of the above) don't seem to realise is bad taste, possibly because they consider crack addicts as either other or lesser to them, rather than unfortunate victims with a shared humanity.

replies(2): >>scotty+eU1 >>X6S1x6+Ho3
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29. lucb1e+rH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 09:03:56
>>derefr+fd1
> I think the parent was assuming "steep learning curve" here was qualified as "for a piece of software used by programmers";

No. For example, my cousin plays it, someone who typically plays games like the Sims (and other games popular amongst women), has no university degree. She has no trouble with Factorio. I am honestly confused how anyone would call Factorio a difficult game. It's nigh impossible to lose unless you change the default settings to generate a more difficult world with much more aggressive biters. It's a building game, not a shooter that requires any kind of skill or specialised software that requires a manual.

Edit: asked said cousin whether she thought it has a steep learning curve. Answer was "lol, yes! And the curve just continues, there is still lots I could do better". I suppose having nearly only programmers as friends skewed my view of how many people had no trouble getting into it.

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30. mabbo+9M1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 10:58:22
>>jjjens+Pv1
EverQuest was actually the game that taught me what the bad signs were.

In high school, my friend was into drugs and partying. I was into EverQuest. I think we'd have both been better long term if he'd gotten me into drugs instead of me getting him into EverQuest.

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31. scotty+eU1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 13:23:45
>>ZeroGr+AF1
I think that kind of word use is inevitable and actually a sign of something good. It for me shows that people know about these things but they are percieved to be so unbelievably horrible that they feel unreal and as such can serve as metaphors.

I know these things happened, happen and most likely will happen and such metaphors are unpleasant for people affected, but I think it's natural language evolution.

People still get murdered occasionally and families of murder victims might be uneasy when they hear about someone that "he killed her with this joke!" but it won't prevent people from using that phrase because murders are so rare for most people that the word gradually loses its literal meaning.

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32. twic+eb2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 17:01:37
>>fredle+aB1
What if there was a package manager for Factorio?
replies(1): >>DonHop+2p2
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33. DonHop+2p2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-06 19:36:44
>>twic+eb2
Factorio packages are Blueprints and Blueprint Books! And the equivalent of npmjs.com would be https://factorioprints.com .

https://wiki.factorio.com/Blueprint

https://wiki.factorio.com/Blueprint_book

https://factorioprints.com/

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/7vnkze/blueprint_...

One of the stages of evolution of a Factorio programmer is learning how to make scalable modular blueprints that you can stamp down one next to another, with their inputs and output routed so they all plug together easily and run in parallel, without having to be manually wired together.

replies(1): >>serpix+AP4
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34. X6S1x6+Ho3[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-07 14:33:01
>>ZeroGr+AF1
I was always kind of unsure why it made me feel weird until someone pointed out how weird it would be to say "OMG these fries are like meth". I think for many people there is a racial component to it as well.
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35. X6S1x6+Ko3[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-07 14:33:40
>>dEnigm+aL
Not any more than cocaine. The major difference between the two is mostly who does them
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36. serpix+AP4[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-08 07:52:46
>>DonHop+2p2
yeah at this point I consider a game like that solved and my interest in it disappears along with any craving to explore more. It is solved, move on.
replies(1): >>rkuyke+jI5
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37. rkuyke+jI5[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-08 16:37:54
>>serpix+AP4
That's a bit like saying programming is solved because package managers exist.

Just like NPM packages, blueprints just let you get into much more trouble much faster!

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