zlacker

[parent] [thread] 58 comments
1. brickc+(OP)[view] [source] 2018-09-11 19:40:53
Poverty in America is a result of American capitalism, at a very high level. At a very very high level, it is caused by human greed, and a lack of love for our neighbors.

We can talk about wages and employment rates, and race all day long, but those are just details. It's human greed in the end, and our inability to love others like we love ourselves.

replies(5): >>whb07+Az >>darawk+4D >>oh_sig+dD >>acchow+RL >>skooku+XN
2. whb07+Az[view] [source] 2018-09-12 01:20:05
>>brickc+(OP)
I don't care or need to love you. But I do love my family and myself. So if I need to put on a smile and provide a service or good to you for money to help the people I love I will do it. That's the point of capitalism and free markets.

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages”

replies(4): >>paulsu+bC >>threat+mC >>bobway+4G >>dredmo+QM
◧◩
3. paulsu+bC[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 01:56:24
>>whb07+Az
Something has really changed. In those days the rewards were fairly linear and available everywhere. But now rewards are nonlinear and highly concentrated. Income inequality (and opportunity inequality) will continue to increase, and we probably need to rethink these pithy little axioms that powered the 1900s.
replies(1): >>sonnyb+DC
◧◩
4. threat+mC[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 01:58:09
>>whb07+Az
So we are re-hashing the western academic historical debate on economic models of rationality...
◧◩◪
5. sonnyb+DC[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 02:03:46
>>paulsu+bC
My belief is that the non-linearity is not due the lack of opportunity of some, but rather the hyper-opportunity of others.

The Silicon Valley isn't really an 'American' centre, it's like a 'Global Centre' where for the first time, indiviuals can have massively disproportionate, global impact.

A doctor may earn a big income, but he can only work on so many patients where as some global firms ... the yields are huge.

Coupled with some automation and large scale immigration of unskilled labour in North America which hurts labour, and outsourcing as well ... it creates a schism.

But remember that on a global basis, billions are being lifted out of utter and abject poverty.

It's mostly a good story.

We have to figure out the working class in advanced nations.

I actually do believe that it's mostly about good jobs, decent services, decent community. That's all there really ever was.

replies(1): >>wallfl+aE
6. darawk+4D[view] [source] 2018-09-12 02:10:10
>>brickc+(OP)
Is that why hunter gatherer societies didn't have poverty? Is that why communist countries weren't poor? How is that working out for Venezuela? Capitalism is literally the only thing in human history that has ever lifted large numbers of people out of poverty.
replies(2): >>whatev+oE >>zaarn+gU
7. oh_sig+dD[view] [source] 2018-09-12 02:12:07
>>brickc+(OP)
What is poverty in noncapitalist countries a result of?
replies(2): >>brickc+nN >>marnet+lO
◧◩◪◨
8. wallfl+aE[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 02:29:16
>>sonnyb+DC
It's not really hyper opportunity, it is impact.

Impact is the reason why an elementary school teacher gets paid in the low-to-mid 5 figures and a professional ball player can get paid 7 figures. Usually, a school teacher has 20-30 kids in their classroom, while a professional ball player can indirectly influence tens of thousands of kids and adults in their "buying" decisions.

Impact is why Franz Schubert died poor and why Ozzy Osbourne made millions.

Technology can exponentially increase your reach and your impact. Ozzy in the medieval ages would have been just a tale told between towns. If you are a skilled marketer, the Internet is your oyster.

replies(1): >>sonnyb+zE
◧◩
9. whatev+oE[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 02:31:06
>>darawk+4D
Hi. China is calling.
replies(1): >>darawk+mG
◧◩◪◨⬒
10. sonnyb+zE[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 02:32:38
>>wallfl+aE
Yes I agree to all of that except you're missing out on power and market power.

The biggest winners will be investors in tech, not employees, who will do well, but not as well as capital FYI.

replies(1): >>wallfl+TN1
◧◩
11. bobway+4G[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 02:54:21
>>whb07+Az
Ah, the old trope of trotting out Adam Smith. It may surprise you to know Smith was concerned about unfettered self-interest and the ways it would damage society. He wasn’t lauding self-interest and praising it as the perfection capitalism claims it to be.

Why not include some more of his gems?

Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.

No society can surely be flourishing and happy of which by far the greater part of the numbers are poor and miserable.

In regards to the price of commodities, the rise of wages operates as simple interest does, the rise of profit operates like compound interest. Our merchants and masters complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price and lessening the sale of goods. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people.

replies(1): >>apatte+xR
◧◩◪
12. darawk+mG[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 03:00:25
>>whatev+oE
China is successful now entirely as a result of their conversion to capitalism. This is an extremely well known fact about China. China tried communism, it went absolutely terribly. They changed to capitalism, and things got good. I can't imagine an example that more perfectly agrees with my point.
replies(1): >>whatev+dJ
◧◩◪◨
13. whatev+dJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 04:00:21
>>darawk+mG
How is Facebook doing in capitalist China?
replies(2): >>whatev+kL >>acchow+TL
◧◩◪◨⬒
14. whatev+kL[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 04:36:04
>>whatev+dJ
Also, in which textbook is it stated that capitalism requires joint ventures of the government with every multinational company that tries to operate whithin its borders?
replies(1): >>darawk+uR
15. acchow+RL[view] [source] 2018-09-12 04:44:56
>>brickc+(OP)
There was no poverty before America?
replies(1): >>brickc+fN
◧◩◪◨⬒
16. acchow+TL[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 04:45:39
>>whatev+dJ
Facebook is banned behind the Great Firewall.

Regardless, what does this have to do with the discussion?

replies(1): >>whatev+TM
◧◩
17. dredmo+QM[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 05:00:47
>>whb07+Az
Karl Marx:

As soon as land becomes private property, the landlord demands a share of almost all the produce which the labourer can either raise, or collect from it. His rent makes the first deduction from the produce of the labour which is employed upon land.

...

The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer.

...

Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate. To violate this combination is everywhere a most unpopular action, and a sort of reproach to a master among his neighbours and equals. We seldom, indeed, hear of this combination, because it is the usual, and one may say, the natural state of things, which nobody ever hears of. Masters, too, sometimes enter into particular combinations to sink the wages of labour even below this rate.

...

A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more; otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.

...

No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable. It is but equity, besides, that they who feed, clothe, and lodge the whole body of the people, should have such a share of the produce of their own labour as to be themselves tolerably well fed, clothed, and lodged.

...

Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power.

...

POLITICAL œconomy, considered as a branch of the science of aThe first object of political economy is to provide subsistence for the people statesman or legislator, proposes two distinct objects: first, to provide a plentiful revenue or subsistence for the people, or more properly to enable them to provide such a revenue or subsistence for themselves; and secondly, to supply the state or commonwealth with a revenue sufficient for the public services. It proposes to enrich both the people and the sovereign.

Oh, silly me, that's Adam Smith. So hard to tell them apart.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_I/...

http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/smith-an-inquiry-into-the-...

replies(1): >>marnet+7P
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
18. whatev+TM[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 05:01:30
>>acchow+TL
The People do not have stake at company A. Company A does not share the true values of the People. Company A is now banned. Repeat until all companies comply.
replies(2): >>virapt+6O >>JumpCr+LP
◧◩
19. brickc+fN[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 05:09:20
>>acchow+RL
Poverty itself can be caused by many things. But poverty in the most powerful country on Earth is not for a lack of resources.
replies(1): >>acchow+3X
◧◩
20. brickc+nN[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 05:13:18
>>oh_sig+dD
Human greed lol or they're poor and nobody wants to help them because they're too busy covering their own asses. Basically there's enough resources in the world for nobody to live in poverty. It doesn't work because nobody's willing to make it work, which is just human nature of selfishness.
replies(1): >>brickc+pN
◧◩◪
21. brickc+pN[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 05:13:42
>>brickc+nN
And I don't deny this nature in myself
replies(1): >>apatte+bO
22. skooku+XN[view] [source] 2018-09-12 05:24:14
>>brickc+(OP)
The US went from subsistence farming in 1800 to superpower a hundred years later. Nearly the entire population that made up the US arrived penniless, and moved up into the middle class and higher.

To say that American capitalism somehow "caused" poverty is contrary to about every statistic.

replies(1): >>lasagn+vR
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
23. virapt+6O[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 05:26:36
>>whatev+TM
True. But what does this have to do with poverty levels discussed here?
replies(1): >>whatev+cQ
◧◩◪◨
24. apatte+bO[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 05:28:19
>>brickc+pN
It seems like you're lamenting what is basically an immutable biological trait without proposing any solutions. I don't think this adds much to the discussion.
replies(3): >>brickc+lP >>3x+cS >>toofy+JX
◧◩
25. marnet+lO[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 05:29:42
>>oh_sig+dD
American embargoes
replies(1): >>acchow+aX
◧◩◪
26. marnet+7P[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 05:44:24
>>dredmo+QM
genius.
◧◩◪◨⬒
27. brickc+lP[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 05:48:33
>>apatte+bO
apatters, a discussion on the internet doesn't need solutions. If we loved everyone like we love ourselves, we would not let people go hungry, or suffer. I believe few people have achieved this level of transcendence, and it starts with knowing yourself. If somehow I could write a comment over the internet that can make you do some self-reflection I would. But I don't know what that comment is.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
28. JumpCr+LP[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 05:56:05
>>whatev+TM
This argument makes no sense. Huawei is banned in America.
replies(1): >>whatev+HQ
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
29. whatev+cQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 06:01:32
>>virapt+6O
That you cannot call capitalism any successful economic system. China proved that a protectionist model with colossal government intervention can successfully reduce poverty.
replies(2): >>darawk+ER >>acchow+LW
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
30. whatev+HQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 06:08:07
>>JumpCr+LP
In Trump’s America.
replies(1): >>ericd+I21
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
31. darawk+uR[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 06:16:49
>>whatev+kL
They're not fully capitalist. Their economic success began when they started their slow conversion to capitalism, and has proceeded in lockstep with their loosening of economic regulation. This is not a co-incidence.
◧◩
32. lasagn+vR[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 06:16:53
>>skooku+XN
And those people were able to rise by hurting the natives originally living there... no free lunch theorem strikes again
replies(1): >>skooku+2S
◧◩◪
33. apatte+xR[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 06:17:25
>>bobway+4G
I don't see anything in the parent's comment indicating that he supports unfettered self-interest.

As far as I can tell almost everyone nowadays supports the idea of having markets which are partially free, but subject to some regulation (which was Smith's position). Hardcore Rand and Marx devotees are on the fringe. We are all just debating the degree and character of the regulation.

We debate within Smith's world because he was right and it's easy to see, free markets tend to produce big winners who have so much wealth and power that they eventually find a way to corrupt the market. Regulation should focus on this basic problem: there's no great social upside to a $100B company becoming an $200B company, whereas there's lots of social upside to promoting lots of competition, small firms, and a sense of fairness so that everyone can pursue their self-interest.

replies(1): >>bobway+4S
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
34. darawk+ER[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 06:18:26
>>whatev+cQ
China proved that you can reduce poverty in spite of those things. There is precisely zero evidence that those policies have done anything to reduce poverty, and a mountain of evidence that those policies, in general, exacerbate poverty.
replies(1): >>Apocry+XV
◧◩◪
35. skooku+2S[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 06:23:36
>>lasagn+vR
The same thing happened to the South American natives, but the immigrants there did not rise. Now they want to move north to the US.

There's something different about the US - capitalism.

◧◩◪◨
36. bobway+4S[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 06:24:11
>>apatte+xR
> I don't see anything in the parent's comment indicating that he supports unfettered self-interest.

I never suggested the parent indicated this.

◧◩◪◨⬒
37. 3x+cS[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 06:25:58
>>apatte+bO
> immutable biological trait

So now your two SUVs and white McMansion with a picket fence are an "immutable biological trait"?

replies(1): >>apatte+OX
◧◩
38. zaarn+gU[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 07:01:16
>>darawk+4D
Well, there was America's gilden age, which was also present in wide areas of Europe; Factory Owners would get all of the money and the workers got almost nothing. In Germany this was so bad that children over the age of about 12 generally worked in the factory along with the entire family to be able to affort a 10sqm single room housing in the city with 2 meals a day.

The factory owners largely didn't care and caused quite a few large scale accidents facing little to no consequence for it.

That only changed in Europe after strikes, unions and socialist programs got punched through (also stuff like the 48 hour work week, 2 days of rest a week, sickdays, social welfare and healthcare and a lot of other stuff that was largely not capitalistic in nature), in the US only after anti-monopoly rulings where deployed en masse (while still paying out the factory owners shitloads of money).

replies(1): >>darawk+NU1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦
39. Apocry+XV[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 07:27:03
>>darawk+ER
What do you think China did to reduce poverty?
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
40. acchow+LW[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 07:41:07
>>whatev+cQ
I believe we mean "capitalism" as in capital is held by private owners in search of profit instead of owned by the state. Not necessarily free trade with other countries.

China has a sort of partial capitalism in that some big companies are 50% owned by the state.

◧◩◪
41. acchow+3X[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 07:44:31
>>brickc+fN
There was no poverty in Ancient Rome?
replies(2): >>joesb+FZ >>brickc+zH1
◧◩◪
42. acchow+aX[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 07:46:17
>>marnet+lO
This ignores the Soviet Union and all of it's allies, which did trade amongst themselves but failed regardless.
replies(1): >>marnet+ZX
◧◩◪◨⬒
43. toofy+JX[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 07:54:44
>>apatte+bO
> ... without proposing any solutions...

While I don't necessarily agree with everything the poster is saying--implying that someone is only allowed to discuss topics in which they have a readily available solution would likely ruin most discussion on the internet and it would certainly put a damper on scientific work the world over.

replies(1): >>apatte+2Z
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
44. apatte+OX[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 07:55:54
>>3x+cS
Please try to be charitable, not adversarial, toward the counterparties in a discussion on HN. I will try to do the same.

I was characterizing what the parent appeared to be saying, so that I could discuss it (that greed is a part of human nature). I was not justifying greed.

I rent an apartment and I don't own a car.

replies(1): >>3x+4x3
◧◩◪◨
45. marnet+ZX[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 07:58:55
>>acchow+aX
I had mostly cuba in mind with this comment
replies(1): >>ericd+d21
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
46. apatte+2Z[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 08:13:39
>>toofy+JX
I thought the pre-edit version of your comment was more interesting. Debate is a very different thing from scientific research. I think debates have better outcomes when you follow a few rules (civility, charity, a focus on possible solutions that benefit all parties). The rules for scientific R&D are different.

But whether the "enlightenment project" benefits from simply making complaints is a valid question. I still think the answer is no, or at least that if you're going to make a complaint, your position is improved by proposing a solution for discussion. I concede that it might be possible to make an effective and evidence-based counterargument, but are there meaningful social movements which have been based solely on complaining about stuff with no action platform?

◧◩◪◨
47. joesb+FZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 08:20:39
>>acchow+3X
There was almost nothing you can consider modern science or technology in Ancient Rome.

No matter how powerful Ancient Rome was, it wasn't even comparable to some third world country today.

◧◩◪◨⬒
48. ericd+d21[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 08:52:28
>>marnet+ZX
From what I understand, life in the Soviet Union itself wasn't exactly luxurious, even if you weren't one of the unlucky people to be put in a Siberian labor camp.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
49. ericd+I21[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 08:56:52
>>whatev+HQ
It's due to national security concerns, not trade balance concerns. The ban predates Trump IIRC.
◧◩◪◨
50. brickc+zH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 14:38:41
>>acchow+3X
If poverty exists in a world where resources are plenty for everyone, the root cause is selfishness. Our inability to love others like we love ourselves.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
51. wallfl+TN1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 15:15:04
>>sonnyb+zE
Kind of like a modern update on Karl Marx's "those who own the means of production are the capitalist class". A Modern update because "means of production" back when it was written meant non-human assets (e.g. machines) and the tech industry is clearly harnessing the collective effort of human assets now.
◧◩◪
52. darawk+NU1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 15:52:19
>>zaarn+gU
Yep, that's true. Unfettered capitalism is not without its flaws. But it's still the only thing that has ever lifted large numbers of people from poverty in the entirety of human history.
replies(1): >>zaarn+152
◧◩◪◨
53. zaarn+152[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 16:49:16
>>darawk+NU1
It also kept large numbers of people on the verge of starving while working themselves to death.
replies(1): >>darawk+5N2
◧◩◪◨⬒
54. darawk+5N2[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 21:12:05
>>zaarn+152
It didn't keep those people anywhere. They were free to go live as hunter-gatherers whensoever they chose. They chose not to do that, because they believed that working was a better life.
replies(1): >>zaarn+ls3
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
55. zaarn+ls3[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-13 04:10:11
>>darawk+5N2
In later stages it actually did keep those people there because they either couldn't afford to leave the city without half the family starving and/or militia hired by the factory owner enforcing people stayed there.
replies(1): >>darawk+dp4
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
56. 3x+4x3[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-13 05:14:57
>>apatte+OX
Just a joke, phrasing it referring to "you" wasn't meant to be personal.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
57. darawk+dp4[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-13 15:56:16
>>zaarn+ls3
> militia hired by the factory owner enforcing people stayed there.

That isn't capitalism.

> In later stages it actually did keep those people there because they either couldn't afford to leave the city without half the family starving

I'm not sure what that means. Cities weren't that big. Just walk out and go live on some uninhabited BLM land if you don't want to participate in the capitalist economy.

replies(1): >>zaarn+sr4
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
58. zaarn+sr4[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-13 16:12:52
>>darawk+dp4
>That isn't capitalism.

Well, everything was steered by capital that the factory owners had.

replies(1): >>darawk+9J4
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
59. darawk+9J4[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-13 18:01:58
>>zaarn+sr4
Sure, but that doesn't make it capitalism.
[go to top]