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[parent] [thread] 39 comments
1. patmcc+(OP)[view] [source] 2015-05-22 21:27:09
Loyalty is such a ridiculous thing for most companies to expect. It needs to be earned, and it's not even that complicated. Here's how you get loyal employees:

1. After some probation period, fire only as a last resort or for really terrible behaviour. Have a plan to correct behavior in all other cases.

2. No layoffs unless the firm's very existence is threatened. It's a tough year? Too bad, that's part of the risk involved in being the owner.

3. Keep pay up to market/replacement rates. If someone is 20% more valuable with his new knowledge, pay him 20% more. 4. Have good benefits/vacation policies.

5. Make sure there's lots of interesting and challenging work to do. Allow people to switch roles/teams on a regular basis if they're interested.

6. Hire good people.

That's a company I'd be loyal to, and I think a lot of others would be too. Sure, you'd get people who would leave for their own thing, or a dream job, or because their husband/wife got a job 2000 miles away, but I don't think you'd see people jump ship nearly as often.

The other stupid thing is companies trot out how much it costs to hire a new person, but never want to invest in just retaining their employees.

replies(7): >>cmdkee+D >>cookie+R >>ljk+I1 >>kevins+73 >>rayine+w3 >>kohanz+I6 >>jackma+W7
2. cmdkee+D[view] [source] 2015-05-22 21:38:47
>>patmcc+(OP)
I work somewhere like that - and to be honest 5 isn't that big a deal even if is replaced by a 9 to 5 culture and some interesting things to work on and the rest isn't complete drudgery.

You'll often find places like this away from the big hubs. They're doing "quite nicely, thank you" with no ambition to become #1, IPO or make the owners richer than Croesus. They also tend to have little to no problem recruiting good people in their 30s and 40s into their nice part of the world where there are good schools, affordable homes and comfortable living.

Nowhere is perfect, the grass is always greener etc. You couldn't pay me enough money to move to London from Scotland.

replies(2): >>vijayr+g1 >>toephu+y6
3. cookie+R[view] [source] 2015-05-22 21:43:44
>>patmcc+(OP)
Consider that the employee who makes only vague promises and demands unlimited concessions, seemingly without regard for the owner's interests, is likely a viper a la Aesop [1]. I've made this mistake before.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farmer_and_the_Viper

replies(2): >>Yakimo+R2 >>gjm11+p5
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4. vijayr+g1[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 21:54:43
>>cmdkee+D
places like this away from the big hubs

Could you please give some examples? Having only worked in mega cities, I am totally unaware of such opportunities.

replies(2): >>toyg+K2 >>cpncru+W2
5. ljk+I1[view] [source] 2015-05-22 22:00:40
>>patmcc+(OP)
that sounds like "the big 4" but why are people still not satisfied with working in big and innovative companies like those?
replies(1): >>7Figur+23
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6. toyg+K2[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:13:55
>>vijayr+g1
I suspect parent is working in Edinburgh, Glasgow or Aberdeen -- maybe not mega-cities, but still quite large hubs.

Anyway his point was, I think: you can be the best developer (or even co-owner) at Small Web Shop Ltd, Countryshire, be paid 1/3rd of what you would get in London, and still have a good life and (occasionally) get interesting work.

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7. Yakimo+R2[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:14:40
>>cookie+R
Sad to see that its voted down so aggressively, because it's true.

Many individuals assume it's their privilege to be employed by you.

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8. cpncru+W2[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:16:11
>>vijayr+g1
My wife works at a place like this, although it's a construction company and not software. We just made a decision to move to a really nice part of the world (Vancouver Island) a few years ago. My wife started looking for jobs after she got here, picked one, and basically lucked out.

This company really does treat their employees like family. My wife got a phone call a few months ago that her father was very ill and in hospital (he's now recovered). Her boss immediately bought her a plane ticket so she could go home to visit him.

Last year she had to take a month off for surgery, and the company was really nice about it. They paid part of her salary while she was off to make up for the unemployment benefit (even though they didn't have to), told her to take as long as she needed to recover, sent her flowers at the hospital, etc.

She started off on a fairly low salary, but she's got multiple large pay rises since she started there, and is now earning a decent salary. (Her boss talked to her about salary, and basically asked her what she thought she should be making).

They do expect hard work and commitment. Quite often she will work overtime if it's busy, and they are very quick to fire useless people. However in return for your commitment they do treat their employees very well.

replies(1): >>toomuc+s5
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9. 7Figur+23[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:17:12
>>ljk+I1
Because the grass is always greener elsewhere.

The reality is that it's difficult to be a happy employee if you're not a happy person. Unfortunately, our society is filled with people who either don't spend enough time working on their own happiness, or who pursue happiness in the wrong ways.

Employers can create great environments for their employees, but an environment is only as happy as the people in it.

10. kevins+73[view] [source] 2015-05-22 22:18:07
>>patmcc+(OP)
Let's say you are working for a for-profit company that operates like you describe, and the business hits a rough patch. The owners tell you that the only way to prevent layoffs would be for everyone to agree to a 20% pay cut, and they back it up with hard data.

Knowing you could get paid more elsewhere, would you accept the pay cut to prevent layoffs or would you leave?

I'm not ashamed to say that I would probably leave. Loyalty shouldn't be expected on either side, and that's ok.

replies(5): >>patmcc+Q3 >>jdhzzz+W6 >>Litost+Y6 >>jrs235+od >>gaius+Mo
11. rayine+w3[view] [source] 2015-05-22 22:25:46
>>patmcc+(OP)
At my wife's firm, there's an unspoken protocol: short of wrongdoing, even if you're not good at your job you get two bad annual performance reviews, then you're given six months after that to find another job. That was true even when the shit hit the fan during the recession. The firm, unsurprisingly, has very loyal employees.

That said, writing the biggest checks to get the people chasing the biggest bonuses is also a viable, if potentially unstable, business model. So is hiring people that probably couldn't work somewhere better. The key is being honest to yourself about what glue keeps your organization together.

replies(1): >>colord+D3
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12. colord+D3[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:29:52
>>rayine+w3
What industry is your wife in?
replies(1): >>rayine+K3
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13. rayine+K3[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:33:14
>>colord+D3
She's a lawyer.
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14. patmcc+Q3[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:33:54
>>kevins+73
If the company didn't have operational reserves for that kind of rough patch I'd be pretty worried anyway - but I'd probably consider it, yeah. A lot of that would depend on my situation at the time though - if it meant defaulting on my mortgage, then no, it's not happening. I agree it's perfectly fine to make a choice like that.

I agree, it's not reasonable to expect loyalty in either direction. I think the key for employers is to remove as many reasons for leaving as possible; then who cares if employees stay out of loyalty or out of logic, they're still staying.

edit: typo

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15. gjm11+p5[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:07:52
>>cookie+R
1. Very few employees are in a position to demand concessions from their employers at all.

2. My experience is that typically employees are more concerned for their employers' interests than employers are for their employees'.

3. In Aesop's fable, the farmer helps the viper out of the kindness of his heart. I have had some good employers, but not once have I had the impression that they were employing me just to make my life better rather than because they hoped I would do work for them to their benefit.

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16. toomuc+s5[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:10:32
>>cpncru+W2
These are companies that in the Valley are referred to as "lifestyle businesses" in a derogatory fashion, as they'll never be "IPO" money. Yet, they have happy customers, happy employees, and generate a profit.
replies(3): >>7Figur+x6 >>vijayr+d7 >>cpncru+V7
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17. 7Figur+x6[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:29:24
>>toomuc+s5
> These are companies that in the Valley are referred to as "lifestyle businesses" in a derogatory fashion, as they'll never be "IPO" money.

What's funny is that small and mid-size businesses that Silicon Valley looks down on can generate IPO money.

Founders, senior management and investors can make vast fortunes when companies go public, but "IPO money" for rank-and-file employees is typically in the six and seven figures, and that's in best case scenarios.

A lot of small businesses generate net profits of six and seven figures annually. My SO's uncle, for instance, makes over a million dollars a year running a services business. So every year, he's banking more than many employees will make in one-off IPO windfalls. There are tons of business owners like him in this country.

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18. toephu+y6[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:29:26
>>cmdkee+D
there are plenty of places like this in SF
19. kohanz+I6[view] [source] 2015-05-22 23:31:33
>>patmcc+(OP)
1. After some probation period, fire only as a last resort or for really terrible behaviour. Have a plan to correct behavior in all other cases.

This is a great way to earn loyalty from the person not being fired and at the same time alienate multiple other employees who may have to work with someone who just might be a bad fit or incompetent. I've seen the situation happen too many times where a company's reluctance to let one person go without a long, dragged-out process of formal correctional measures caused several other, much more valuable team members, to leave instead.

replies(3): >>Nadya+O6 >>dragon+Z6 >>sheepm+3a
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20. Nadya+O6[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:33:40
>>kohanz+I6
Sounds like they failed to have a plan to correct said behavior that caused the others to leave.
replies(1): >>kohanz+T6
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21. kohanz+T6[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:35:08
>>Nadya+O6
Sometimes it's just not correctable. Bad hires happen. Not everyone can do well in a given position. The idea of dragging things out until firing is a "last resort" makes it sound like it's a long process and that is a bad thing. It can create a poisonous working environment.
replies(2): >>Nadya+47 >>dragon+w8
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22. jdhzzz+W6[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:35:52
>>kevins+73
I worked for a small company with 20ish employees during the post 2000 tech downturn. There were a number of layoffs and I got a 25% haircut and was happy to remain. It was a struggle for us financially but not a catastrophe. Eventually (3 years on) the job market got better and I got a position at a different company that took my pay beyond what it had been. I have no regrets and no hard feelings. I can envision returning to that company some day in the future as the environment was interesting and challenging.
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23. Litost+Y6[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:36:54
>>kevins+73
This happened to me in my 2nd job, a long time ago. Customer went tits up owing us £150k, we were only a small firm, around 10 employees so would have meant significant layoffs.

So the owner asked if we'd all take 20% or so paycuts, with some of the older/better paid staff and the owner himself taking bigger cuts. As the business was otherwise profitable (being in a pretty niche market) we all agreed. Something like 9months later we all got paid back with interest and a bonus.

Smaller scale, and a bit more recently at a different (also small) place, all the non-management staff offerred to forego the (expensive) christmas party so one of the contractors could get paid back pay they were owed due to problems with a difficult client.

It's obviously very situational, but in both cases it felt like the right thing to do and both places were smallish firms where loyalty and morale etc. at the time, were high.

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24. dragon+Z6[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:37:13
>>kohanz+I6
> This is a great way to earn loyalty from the person not being fired and a way to alienate multiple other people who may have to work with that person who may just be a bad fit or incompetent.

Improving "behavior" (I would say "fit" -- the problem can often be on the company's end as well as the employees, and if you want to take the family analogy even semi-seriously, the employer needs to be able to be introspective enough to recognize this) needs to be taken just as seriously as "fire only as a last resort" in these cases; and if you don't have a credible plan to improve fit, you are at the last resort.

(Lots of places that give lip service to an ideal like this, especially places that are still afflicted by heavy bureaucracy, take it the wrong way, and it amounts to "never impose negative consequence and just try to sweep any performance problems under the rug as long as possible"; that's at least as bad as "fire at the first sign of trouble, and never try to understand what went wrong and how it could be improved".)

replies(1): >>kohanz+77
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25. Nadya+47[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:39:32
>>kohanz+T6
Why did the bad hire make it past the probation period? The purpose of that period is to weed out the bad hires.

Internal processes only take as long as you make them. Correct the issue in 2 weeks. Not solved? Let them go. It doesn't have to be some 6 month ordeal of trying to get things worked out. The point is to have a process to deal with these things rather than telling the employee to pack up their shit and get out.

replies(1): >>loup-v+lr
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26. kohanz+77[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:41:32
>>dragon+Z6
It might simply come down to terminology, but things like "last resort" and, honestly "plan", bring to mind those terrible corporate HR programs that poor performers are put on that take forever to culminate.

It's alright to fire as a "last resort", but make the process to come to that decision a swift and confident one - your other employees are watching.

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27. vijayr+d7[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:43:48
>>toomuc+s5
Personally, I don't want IPO money and all the headaches that come with it. I'd rather have more time, good people and freedom than money. That's why I was asking for examples of such cities/companies.
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28. cpncru+V7[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 00:03:20
>>toomuc+s5
Yeah, I actually run a lifestyle business myself, and have done so for the past 18 years. I make a decent living (albeit much less than I'd earn working for a SV startup or Google), have a virtually stress-fee life, live in paradise, and can set my own work schedule. I don't have any employees at the moment, but when I did employ someone I gave him the same work conditions that I set for myself (i.e. work whenever you want, and take time off whenever you feel like it).

Before I started working on my business full-time I earned about 5x what I make now (and that was over 15 years ago), but I'm much happier now.

replies(1): >>jrs235+hd
29. jackma+W7[view] [source] 2015-05-23 00:03:35
>>patmcc+(OP)
> Loyalty is such a ridiculous thing for most companies to expect. It needs to be earned, and it's not even that complicated.

In this day and age, anyone who expects loyalty--from an employer or an employee--is either blinded by nostalgia, hopelessly naive, or a blithering idiot. Loyalty in the workplace died many, many years ago.

replies(1): >>madez+Xb
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30. dragon+w8[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 00:08:53
>>kohanz+T6
> The idea of dragging things out until firing is a "last resort" makes it sound like it's a long process and that is a bad thing.

"Last resort" does not mean "long process", it means, "only when there is no reasonable expectation of being able to improve fit to an acceptable level".

Whether it takes a while to reasonably determine that or not depends on what the problem that has manifested is and what opportunities there are to alter conditions to address the problem.

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31. sheepm+3a[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 00:54:13
>>kohanz+I6
On the other hand I've seen quick firings lead to other very valuable team members leaving as well.

Firing somebody who is doing a decent job causes a lot of damage. The first company I worked at fired two devs after implementing new metrics and determining they were 15-20% less productive than the rest of the team.

In reality these two guys were doing a good job; just not quite as good a job as the rest of us. I immediately started looking for a new job and within six months the entire rest of the team left.

replies(1): >>chiph+vs
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32. madez+Xb[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 01:58:12
>>jackma+W7
That is not true.

I work for a company where firing is kind of a no-go, at least at the the level of engineers. You'd have to provoke it, e.g. by stealing something. Also, if I decide to leave the company, I tell so as early as possible.

It seems you must have had experiences at workplaces where there was no trust.

Disclaimer: I work for a german company.

replies(1): >>jackma+Hl
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33. jrs235+hd[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 02:28:31
>>cpncru+V7
The parable of the Mexican fisherman: http://renewablewealth.com/the-parable-of-the-mexican-fisher...

:)

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34. jrs235+od[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 02:34:50
>>kevins+73
I worked for a company and saw the writing on the wall that tough times were ahead. Realizing this I left, hoping to give more time to my coworkers before cuts were instituted. A few months after leaving, the company had to cut everyone's salary by 20%. They were kind enough that they went from being expected to work 5 eight hour days down to expected to work 4 eight hour days.
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35. jackma+Hl[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 08:08:07
>>madez+Xb
Yeah, being outside of the US could make a huge difference. For the most part, in the US, you can be laid off/fired for damn near any reason, at any time, with absolutely no warning.

Companies such as your employer are prettymuch unheard of around here.

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36. gaius+Mo[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 10:11:56
>>kevins+73
A bonus based compensation system converts payroll from a fixed to a floating cost.
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37. loup-v+lr[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 11:55:42
>>Nadya+47
It's not always easy. I was a bad fit for my last gig (FP/OOP culture clash, mostly), but it took 4 months for them (and me!) to see that. It could have been much quicker (a month), but neither my elder colleague nor me had the gut to tell our hierarchy we probably can't work together: I was still on probation, and my colleague approved my being hired.

Besides, if they did let me go after a month, I'd have resented them for not giving me a fair chance.

replies(1): >>hyperp+Ut
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38. chiph+vs[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 12:33:04
>>sheepm+3a
Sounds like the boss was a fan of Jack Welch's vitality curve, with his strategy of firing the bottom 10% each year. Which can have repercussions when those guys aren't slackers, just merely average.
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39. hyperp+Ut[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 13:19:00
>>loup-v+lr
How did you get hired in spite of that, and how was it such a big problem that it needed a firing?
replies(1): >>loup-v+DE
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40. loup-v+DE[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 17:01:39
>>hyperp+Ut
Well… it was a combination of that, and general downsizing. They would have put me in another team, but they were all shrinking. So they didn't keep me.

How they didn't see it coming… Well, we informally discussed the project, my OOP knowledge etc… But they didn't read my blog, where my biases are quite clear. Come to think of it, my colleague didn't read the coding style rules he asked me to write either. If he had, some issues would have been addressed right away.

I was also told I would work on equal footing with my colleague, participate in technical decisions… He was my elder, and in the project from the very beginning, so he wasn't really my equal. But I failed to treat him like my boss, and it turned out to be such a big problem that the hierarchy made it official 10 weeks after my arrival.

My first commits weren't object oriented, so my colleague deduced I didn't know OOP. I lost all credibility at that point.

Finally, I was too careful. My unwillingness to rush the next feature as fast as possible without any regard for technical debt was interpreted as "doing research". Sorry, I just can't work that way. I was told we would "rewrite the code 50 times over", which would indeed have compensated. In practice we never rewrote anything. The first version always ended up being set in stone. Even code we both agreed was a mistake.

On the bright side, I did adjust over time, and they even said so (to me and my hierarchy). Maybe that's why they kept me for so long. But it wasn't enough to keep me in the middle of a general downsizing.

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