zlacker

[parent] [thread] 11 comments
1. kohanz+(OP)[view] [source] 2015-05-22 23:31:33
1. After some probation period, fire only as a last resort or for really terrible behaviour. Have a plan to correct behavior in all other cases.

This is a great way to earn loyalty from the person not being fired and at the same time alienate multiple other employees who may have to work with someone who just might be a bad fit or incompetent. I've seen the situation happen too many times where a company's reluctance to let one person go without a long, dragged-out process of formal correctional measures caused several other, much more valuable team members, to leave instead.

replies(3): >>Nadya+6 >>dragon+h >>sheepm+l3
2. Nadya+6[view] [source] 2015-05-22 23:33:40
>>kohanz+(OP)
Sounds like they failed to have a plan to correct said behavior that caused the others to leave.
replies(1): >>kohanz+b
◧◩
3. kohanz+b[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:35:08
>>Nadya+6
Sometimes it's just not correctable. Bad hires happen. Not everyone can do well in a given position. The idea of dragging things out until firing is a "last resort" makes it sound like it's a long process and that is a bad thing. It can create a poisonous working environment.
replies(2): >>Nadya+m >>dragon+O1
4. dragon+h[view] [source] 2015-05-22 23:37:13
>>kohanz+(OP)
> This is a great way to earn loyalty from the person not being fired and a way to alienate multiple other people who may have to work with that person who may just be a bad fit or incompetent.

Improving "behavior" (I would say "fit" -- the problem can often be on the company's end as well as the employees, and if you want to take the family analogy even semi-seriously, the employer needs to be able to be introspective enough to recognize this) needs to be taken just as seriously as "fire only as a last resort" in these cases; and if you don't have a credible plan to improve fit, you are at the last resort.

(Lots of places that give lip service to an ideal like this, especially places that are still afflicted by heavy bureaucracy, take it the wrong way, and it amounts to "never impose negative consequence and just try to sweep any performance problems under the rug as long as possible"; that's at least as bad as "fire at the first sign of trouble, and never try to understand what went wrong and how it could be improved".)

replies(1): >>kohanz+p
◧◩◪
5. Nadya+m[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:39:32
>>kohanz+b
Why did the bad hire make it past the probation period? The purpose of that period is to weed out the bad hires.

Internal processes only take as long as you make them. Correct the issue in 2 weeks. Not solved? Let them go. It doesn't have to be some 6 month ordeal of trying to get things worked out. The point is to have a process to deal with these things rather than telling the employee to pack up their shit and get out.

replies(1): >>loup-v+Dk
◧◩
6. kohanz+p[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:41:32
>>dragon+h
It might simply come down to terminology, but things like "last resort" and, honestly "plan", bring to mind those terrible corporate HR programs that poor performers are put on that take forever to culminate.

It's alright to fire as a "last resort", but make the process to come to that decision a swift and confident one - your other employees are watching.

◧◩◪
7. dragon+O1[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 00:08:53
>>kohanz+b
> The idea of dragging things out until firing is a "last resort" makes it sound like it's a long process and that is a bad thing.

"Last resort" does not mean "long process", it means, "only when there is no reasonable expectation of being able to improve fit to an acceptable level".

Whether it takes a while to reasonably determine that or not depends on what the problem that has manifested is and what opportunities there are to alter conditions to address the problem.

8. sheepm+l3[view] [source] 2015-05-23 00:54:13
>>kohanz+(OP)
On the other hand I've seen quick firings lead to other very valuable team members leaving as well.

Firing somebody who is doing a decent job causes a lot of damage. The first company I worked at fired two devs after implementing new metrics and determining they were 15-20% less productive than the rest of the team.

In reality these two guys were doing a good job; just not quite as good a job as the rest of us. I immediately started looking for a new job and within six months the entire rest of the team left.

replies(1): >>chiph+Nl
◧◩◪◨
9. loup-v+Dk[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 11:55:42
>>Nadya+m
It's not always easy. I was a bad fit for my last gig (FP/OOP culture clash, mostly), but it took 4 months for them (and me!) to see that. It could have been much quicker (a month), but neither my elder colleague nor me had the gut to tell our hierarchy we probably can't work together: I was still on probation, and my colleague approved my being hired.

Besides, if they did let me go after a month, I'd have resented them for not giving me a fair chance.

replies(1): >>hyperp+cn
◧◩
10. chiph+Nl[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 12:33:04
>>sheepm+l3
Sounds like the boss was a fan of Jack Welch's vitality curve, with his strategy of firing the bottom 10% each year. Which can have repercussions when those guys aren't slackers, just merely average.
◧◩◪◨⬒
11. hyperp+cn[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 13:19:00
>>loup-v+Dk
How did you get hired in spite of that, and how was it such a big problem that it needed a firing?
replies(1): >>loup-v+Vx
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
12. loup-v+Vx[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 17:01:39
>>hyperp+cn
Well… it was a combination of that, and general downsizing. They would have put me in another team, but they were all shrinking. So they didn't keep me.

How they didn't see it coming… Well, we informally discussed the project, my OOP knowledge etc… But they didn't read my blog, where my biases are quite clear. Come to think of it, my colleague didn't read the coding style rules he asked me to write either. If he had, some issues would have been addressed right away.

I was also told I would work on equal footing with my colleague, participate in technical decisions… He was my elder, and in the project from the very beginning, so he wasn't really my equal. But I failed to treat him like my boss, and it turned out to be such a big problem that the hierarchy made it official 10 weeks after my arrival.

My first commits weren't object oriented, so my colleague deduced I didn't know OOP. I lost all credibility at that point.

Finally, I was too careful. My unwillingness to rush the next feature as fast as possible without any regard for technical debt was interpreted as "doing research". Sorry, I just can't work that way. I was told we would "rewrite the code 50 times over", which would indeed have compensated. In practice we never rewrote anything. The first version always ended up being set in stone. Even code we both agreed was a mistake.

On the bright side, I did adjust over time, and they even said so (to me and my hierarchy). Maybe that's why they kept me for so long. But it wasn't enough to keep me in the middle of a general downsizing.

[go to top]