Kudos for at least trying to address this, MS should hang their head in shame, this is not the hardest problem to solve these days. If we could do it in 1995 they should be able to do it 30 years later.
If you open pamixer and look at applications using audio it still shows up as Skype there. At least as of a few years ago.
The actual MS client for Linux is, as far as I know, non-existing now. Or at least not updated. It was anyway always completely useless for several reasons, in particular that it always stayed at 100% CPU.
Then one day the company switched from zoom to teams. She now had to be plugged in constantly.
Office 365 actually works better in Firefox in Linux than any other browser in Windows. It's like they've kind of given up on the whole OS thing, and have just decided to go with Linux.
Google Drive still doesn't work on Linux.
So much big tech shit just didn't care about Linux and it's even worse in Asia and industry where up to now you might as well grow three heads before you suggest not using Windows.
It'll eventually change, but at least in China it'll probably be an even more closed down Huawei or similar OS rather then Linux. Neither WeChat or the commercial variant have Linux support, and at least the latter doesn't seem to have a PWA alternative. So I have a VM that absolutely destroys fan and battery life.
/usr/bin/chromium --ozone-platform=wayland --enable-features=UseOzonePlatform,WaylandWindowDecorations,WebRTCPipeWireCapturer --user-data-dir=/home/myuser/.config/chromium-ilri --app=https://teams.microsoft.com
No, in Teams' case, they somehow managed to take a trivial problem that was solved quite well 30-40-odd years ago (albeit in a slightly different skin - IRC) and completely botch it in every way imaginable, and then a few more ways not even the most creative of QA engineer could have possibly imagined a team messing up such a basic problem set.
It's finally a little bit less bad than it was 2-3 years ago, so the trend line is slightly angling upwards out of hell now, where the bar has been, but that's really not saying much.
Microsoft does not do web-based and distributed end-user software well. All sorts of organizational dysfunction leaks in the implementation (it's obvious one team was in charge of "grouping", and another is in charge of "channels", and no connection to any of the Teams calls for a group which and god-forbid Outlook). They are in dire need of some "inverse Conway maneuvering", but with a behemoth like MS, it's probably a mindset shift that's impossible to get through for any of the projects they are building today.
If at least they were still focused on doing good desktop software, I'd give them a pass, but they are increasingly introducing the same problems in the desktop software they build too.
However, I wonder even more what's wrong with my organization to keep using such subpar tools for years now :(
But then Teams keeps showing up because "everyone knows it", "you already have it through office", ... And somehow I can't name a single strenght for it. It's just plain bad.
It reminds me of the galaxy of "prime" service from Amazon beside delivery, that don't need to compete on their own merit but benefit from the main product they're attached to: on its own, it should have died a dishonorable death a long time ago.
So, what am I doing wrong? How do I get the authentic Teams user experience that everyone else here seemingly has?
Meetings work great. Compatible equipment in room makes everything feel seem less. Collaborative editing and file sharing are both awesome.
Every time it’s brought up on HN I get the feeling that people here use collaborative tools in a very different way I do. They mostly want something to chat via text which I and most of the people in my area of work use very little. I think that’s where the disconnect comes from.
Teams is not primarily a text chat software. It’s not built for this purpose as that’s not how most office workers collaborate. That’s quite obvious.
7. The absolute brain dead formatting, which makes typing equations or e.g. python exponents super annoying (no I didn't want to have this text bold)
I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of teams either, but it's absolutely mind boggling how slack got to such a dominant position in this space
That being said, in the last job where I used it regularly, Teams was responsible for 100% of the blue screens I regularly experienced. Dell laptop and some quirk of interaction between Teams video calls, NVidia graphics drivers, and WiFi drivers than no update ever fixed. Very frustrating.
On my fairly ancient Core i7-8700 I can have a video call open in one screen and be editing in Resolve on another.
On an i9-14900K, arguably one of the fastest CPUs in the previous few years (and excusing their design defect that causes them to die); Teams is significantly slower than on the Quallcom Snapdragon X-Elite, or my Macbook.
It seems to perform the same as it would on an i9 platform as it does on i5 laptop's of the same generation (in terms of input latency and drawing to the screen etc;)
I know it's apples/oranges, that ARM CPUs are substantially different than x86 ones, but the fact that it seems to be the same on significantly lower clocked (and lower consumptive) chips indicate to me that something very bizarre is happening when it comes to Teams.
ARM chips seem to be significantly better for electron applications, but something unique exists within Teams here.
Teams is unjustifiably worse than slack.
The only way you can hold this opinion is if you haven't been forced to use Teams.
Thus, I detest communities having slack as a first point of contact.
This isn't sarcasm or anything, I really mean it. If you're somehow on Teams' happy path and it does what you expect then I'm envious, I wish I was you and I am grateful that it's helpful to you at least.
For me, though, the frustration stems from being forced to use it at work, which amplifies every quirk tenfold. Minor annoyances like duplicated groups of the same people (splitting chat histories across sessions), the "every team is a SharePoint site" bloat, and the massive resource drain (though that's easing as hardware improves) add up fast.
That is to say that they also relay all of their calls through datacenters half a continent away, so if you're close to one of those then it's fine but the further you are the more likely you are to accidentally talk over people and so on, there's no peer-to-peer, even 1:1 calls are relayed with Teams; making Google Meet and Jitsi perform "better" (though people can't explain why).
Then there's the dev-side slop: mangled code snippets in chats, meeting controls jammed at the top (pulling your eyes away from the camera), and—God help you: if you've ever tried building chatops integrations on it, you'd break down and cry. Like, real, actual office-bathroom breakdown tears.
The main thing that trips me up is that I often confuse my Outlook calendar for me Teams calendar - because they look almost the same but work completely differently.
An i5-14500 has a comparable memory bandwidth as an i9-14900k
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/compare.htm...
Makes you wonder how many teams does Microsoft have working on calendars.
That's insightful. I gather your workday is a blend of collaborative document writing or video calls?
At work, I'm at my best when I'm not in meetings nor documents. I'm writing text all day, some for computers, some for humans. But I can see how I'm in the minority across the spectrum of knowledge work.
How the heck do you screw this up so badly?
Teams fails every day at its basic purpose. Chats are confusing, the threaded ones being utterly useless. Constantly have to use the mouse to do basic stuff like address people or change channel. Stuff randomly breaks all the time, syntax highlighting seems to break in some new way every other week. It's complete garbage software and a massive regression for those of us who remember proper, simple chat software from decades ago.
The regular Skype was much better and also ran on Linux, but I've come to think Microsoft was only ever interested in buying the name.
MimeType=x-scheme-handler/foobar;
If not, I would write a shell wrapper and set it as the default browser; something to the effect of:
#!/usr/bin/bash
set -eu
for arg in "$@"; do
if [[ $arg == *whatever-url-teams-uses.com* ]]; then
exec gtk-launch teams "$@"
fi
done
exec gtk-launch firefox "$@"
I now use Slack, Zoom, Google Workspace etc. and don’t enjoy the experience at all. It feels low quality and messy compared to Teams.
I don't believe you.
Making App integrations for Slack to basically anything is pretty close to a joyful experience, the rest of it is comparable to other chat systems perhaps, but are you really telling me with a straight face that developing applications atop Teams (that do more than just plug other Microsoft things together) is actually a superior experience?
I get that opinions are subjective and all that, but so you understand: I'm having the same reaction as if someone said to you that contracting gangrene is preferable to a walk in the park.
I use both on Linux via Firefox (their tabs are pinned side by side). I prefer Teams because:
a) Slack constantly forgets my credentials and i need to go through a whole dance of logging in, proving i'm human by clicking bicycles, having it email some code. Pretty much every day.
b) Slack, for some reason i cannot fathom, randomly switches me to "do not disturb" mode (or something like that) even though i'm right there. Not even away: it switches to a mode where i do not receive notifications when someone messages me. Fortunately it still does the beepy sound and i do keep the tabs visible on my screen all the time so i actually do notice messages, but i had at least a couple of questions from others why i am in that mode.
c) Slack does not support audio calls. Not sure why, but it doesn't work in Firefox. Teams does work just fine. Fortunately all work meetings are done via Teams and all people on Stack are also on Teams so if someone wants an audio call we use Teams, but still, a negative for Slack.
The only issue i had with Teams is that its text input can get confused when typing `backticks` and it seems to dislike using emojis at any place except the end of the text. Also Slack has some (old) meme emojis, though if that is a good thing or not depends on your taste :-P.
And half of the time it crashes. Or the video/audio doesn't work.
All around it seems to be some of the better Microsoft Software, the interface is decent and does not get into the way, the functionality and feature set is pretty good as well. E.g. granting other people access to your PC is a pretty cool and useful feature.
I never understood the hate it gets on here. What particularly negative experiences do people have with it?
It's just not good. When you compare it to Slack, etc. it's just constantly awkward and getting in the way. And it tries to do too much, on top of that.
Slack is rapidly getting shittier though, so.
I hear this a lot but really, Teams works fine as far as I can tell. Click on meeting, check your hair on camera first, join meeting. It works fine 19 times out of 20 at least.
The problem is that it’s a perfectly fine video meeting application (although what sociopath decided entering a meeting unmuted was a proper default), but many orgs try to push it as their chat application too. The UX for that is awful. And for some of us that is the primary way we communicate. I started working from home in 2008, collaborating on code over Freenode long before that. Most eng teams I’ve been on these past 20 years coordinate on chat. It’s hard when the business people think Teams is fine and then the rest of us have to use busted software.
But for something you use 3-5x a day, that is a noticeable problem every few days. Why it has such an awful reputation.
In fact, I'd say all of the modern chat apps are pretty much equally terrible. They're all proprietary, bloated, web apps with terrible clients that people only use because they have to for work. Chat apps peaked in the early 2000s when the protocols were more open and you could use 3rd party apps like Trillian and Pidgin instead of the official clients.
The one thing that bothers me is it can't tell if I'm at my machine when I'm not actively using it. People keep thinging I've bugered off from my desk.
I've got two customers that both use Slack for everything except calls. One does calls in Meet and the other one in Teams. I asked to the Teams one and they told me that Teams works for everybody every time. Slack sometimes has problems with the video or audio setup. Too bad, because huddles are only one click away.
Also, it HAS to rename my files.
Also sending code barely works, and not for long messages
This is just on top of my head
Same happens on the official app on windows 11 so the issue is not linux specific.
Being signed out on Teams leads to a really slim banner at the top (of the already messy UI) that tells me to sign in again, the strip is even grey... the only reason I notice I am signed out at all is because I have notifications on my phone that aren't reflected in the Teams UI. This is a consequence of my IT department having short sessions, but the fact that this is how Teams displays it- is a fragrantly terrible UX.
The more annoying one is when my phone is signed out I just stop getting push notifications. There's no indication that I need to sign in again or anything. I think Slack would have the same issue with short session times to be honest, unless they send you a push notification every time your credentials expire which is also frustrating.
Teams working in Firefox is relatively recent, afaik it still doesn't work in Safari. I think I specifically had to install Chrome a few times to join job interviews that were conducted on Teams as Firefox definitely was not supported a year ago.
I am not sure if this is a server side thing at Microsoft, or a problem with the application itself. True under Windows, Linux, via local app, and via the web app.
For larger meetings (> 50 people), we use zoom. Unlike teams, zoom generally just works. Quite well in fact.
Teams is simply crap software, forced upon us. If we could jettison that and Outlook, I would be grateful. Though our IT looks at us in an unblinking stare, if we ask them to allow us to use any of the better clients on mobile, laptop, desktop, windows or linux. Its almost as if our third eye in the middle of our forehead opened up.
My slack experience is old so I don't remember but on msteams there aren't audio calls at all. All calls all video calls, the only difference the audio/video call buttons do is wether your webcam will be activated or not from the beginning but you can still disable it before joining on a video call and you can always activating your camera even if you pressed the telephone looking button to start the call.
The boss doesn't see that you can't properly paste a piece of code in the chat, but he wants to make sure that everyone hears him at the annual talk. He wants it to connect to the company directory, make analytics, reflect the corporate hierarchy, make announcements, etc... He sees it as a one way, top down communication tool more than peer-to-peer, and for the former, Teams delivers. Developers hate it, but developers are not the ones who have the money and make these decisions.
Still, that's a thing I miss about Bill Gates's Microsoft. It was certainly evil (Embrace Extend Extinguish, the fight against free software, etc...), but at least, they actually cared about usability and developers, not just pleasing big company bosses.
Fast forward to now, after being a dev on Windows for years and loving it, and now their UX is a joke. For example, to jump back and forth between chats, neither the back/forth mouse buttons nor any other key combo works on macOS. You have to click the navigation buttons in the symbol bar instead. Translations are AI-powered, and that shows. Also, Teams is dog slow, which I also count as a UX issue.
Granted I haven't tried O365 in about a year since it was so unusable in Firefox.
As far as teams goes, I use it in the same version chromium on the same OS on two different computers; one works fine most of the time (main issue is it sometimes switches the audio back to the first item listed by Linux, which is not my USB headset). The other computer is terrible. Somewhere between 4-48 hours it pops up a tiny (maybe 40px) banner at the top saying "you need to sign in again" meanwhile there are no notifications and any messages I send are silently queued with no obvious indication that they haven't been delivered. Before I figured this out, I was just randomly out of communication with my coworkers, with both sides thinking we were sending the other person messages that they were ignoring. Clicking the "sign in" button on the banner just seems to reload teams and doesn't even ask me to sign in.
So much care, and the expertise and professionalism of the people doing the worn was amazing.
Teams is an absolute mess.
Not surprised it properly works on Edge at all.
To make matters worse, in an attempt to save on development costs, mobile and Web applications have been deployed on the desktop, with the justification that it’s better to have an app, even a shoddy one, than to not have one at all. What’s appropriate on a smartphone or a tablet may not be appropriate on a desktop, and vice versa. The Web never had a mechanism for enforcing UI/UX guidelines, similar to the MS-DOS and Apple II days of computing.
The sad thing is Microsoft and even Apple now have shoddy desktop apps, despite the fact they have the resources to make well-designed desktop apps, and that at one point they set standards for excellent desktop apps and conformed to them.
We had a sweet spot in the 2000s with Windows 2000/XP/7 and Mac OS X and their ecosystems of desktop applications. It’s been downhill since.
As for your reaction: if your experience is so different, a useful attitude might be to ask why you have such an absurdly negative viewpoint.
To tell you the truth I always assumed it was because Microsoft didn’t really care about chatops or any integration that was not within their ecosystem (or a website). The experience is consistent with that viewpoint.
Now we expect a desktop and a mobile app, also native and browser based. They all have different requirements. Even in the same category, such as iOS vs Android, some conventions are different. Having to write the app differently for each platform to make the best of it is not only expensive, but it may also be confusing to users who switch from one to another.
For example let's say you have a button on your desktop app that sees little use, but it is a nice feature for the few times it is needed. Because it is a desktop and you have lots of space and a precise pointing device, it stays. But for your mobile version, there is simply no room for it, so you remove it and tweak the workflow a bit so that it isn't needed anymore. Taken individually, they are both good decisions, but I can guarantee that the desktop user will complain that it is missing on the mobile app, and he would be right. It means you have to make a compromise you didn't have to make before.
When I click on something in Teams it shows up in (I'd say) < 300ms most times. I'm sure it could be much faster if done better. However, is that what you mean by "horrendous" or are you seeing 30s freezes or something like that?
Of all my many gripes with Teams, it usually handles code surprisingly well. Single `inline` and triple backtick blocks usually render as you'd expect.
OneNote on the other hand doesn't support a code-block at all, and is worse (if you can believe it) than storing cli commands in Word docs.
To me memory latency being whatever, 30% higher, ought not to explain the issue here, in part because that's a priori assuming all is memory-bandwidth-limited vs say network limited or CPU limited far as the bottleneck
What makes more sense to me is the software is "slow and clunky" that is maybe a global mutex, maybe poor multithreading sync making it effectively single threaded, with a sprinkling of particularly slow algorithms or syscalls that are realized as a frozen GUI, or as we call such cases, Microsoft standard
And I refuse to switch browsers just to use this disgrace of an app. If it’s supposed to work on the web it should not care which browser I’m accessing it from, otherwise a native app (read: not webview-based) should be made available.