This is "computer says no (not a citizen)". Which is horrifying
They've just created an app to justify what they were already doing right? And the argument will be "well it's a super complex app run by a very clever company so it can't be wrong"?
This was also one of the more advanced theories about the people selection and targeting AI apps used in Gaza. I've only heard one journalist spell it out, because many journalists believe that AI works.
But the dissenter said that they know it does not work and just use it to blame the AI for mistakes.
You can eventually punish humans abusing power. Cant do that wuth software designed to be abusive.
1: https://xcancel.com/ProjectLincoln/status/191249066980685851...
Incidentally, I was reading about the Lincoln County War recently and realized it was a microcosm for all the kinds of corruption that we see on display nationwide today. The rings controlled commerce and any upstarts were facing brutally low chances for success and would be snuffed out if they became a threat.
The awkward ‘Siemens and the holocaust’ section was so pathetic.
https://pages.nist.gov/frvt/html/frvt11.html?utm_source=chat...
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/12/...
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jan/24/met-polic...
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00146-023-01634-z
https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/blog/facial-recognition...
https://surface.syr.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2479&con...
Yeah it's pretty fucking shit, actually.
Here's the science.
When they decide that someone is in the US illegaly using the app... what happens? Is the person apprehended? Driven straight to the border? Taken into custody while more data about them is gathered?
Anyways, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to nowadays take that philosophy and apply it universally. Just because it was done unfairly and hypocritically in the past is no excuse for us to also be hypocrites nowadays.
Turns out IBM had a rather... Uh, pragmatic attitude towards the uses the nazi regime found for IBM equipment.
And examples such as "de-Baathification" in Iraq show that even the best-intentioned actions can have wide-reaching and truly devastating unintended consequences. I won't pretend that I have some neat and clean answer to any of this, but there's a persistent sense of moral outrage that feels earned around all of this.
Accountability literally means "being forced to give an account of your decisions", i.e. explain the reasons behind why you made the choices you did. The idea is that when you have a public forum of people with common values, merely being forced to explain yourself will activate mechanisms of shame, guilt, and conformism that keep people inline. Otherwise you'll face the judgment of your peers.
This mechanism breaks down when your peers don't hold common values. If nobody agrees on what right and wrong are, you just find different peers until somebody thinks that what you're doing is right. Or you just don't care and figure solipsism vs. the status quo is just a matter of degree.
But they're not going to, because the people in charge don't sincerely care about the topic.
As for Iraq: I don't see much evidence that US actions there were "best-intentioned", or even well-intentioned.
As long as they can claim that whatever they did to you is part of their official duties (which, again, good luck expecting the current federal government to take your side on this even if the ICE officer clearly oversteps their duties) only the federal government/DOJ can prosecute them for misconduct, which also obviously won't happen under the current administration.
There's no "custody", these people aren't being afforded the Constitutional, legal, or human rights. This is internment by militarised fascist gangs.
"Officer", ha. These are people given a gun and told to go out and brutalise others. There not performing an office of state, they're far outside the law. All, it seems, to try and force those who support democracy to step out of line so Trump/Vance and their handlers can have more people killed and claim civil war is getting in the way of having elections.
LLMs are sycophants, how you ask matters
If the computer says you’re in the US illegally, but you have documents that say you are a US citizen, then you are put in custody until the discrepancy can be resolved.
It really depends on whether or not there is a standing deportation order for that person. If not, then it’s a lengthy process where you appear in front of a judge who may release you (yes, low risk aliens are still being released) or held in custody until the trial is held.
If you have a standing deportation order, and your identity is confirmed, then yes, you may be deported quite quickly.
No due process is being denied. If you have a standing deportation order, you can be deported.
So ICE go around masked and put people in some kind of camps based on what some app says? And then when they are in the camp what happens?
Readers are likely to interpret this generally and it may act as a lightning rod - the statement may need some qualifiers to define what is not denying due process.
While doing so can be ok, you should probably do some checking via non-LLM means as well.
Otherwise you'll end up misunderstanding things that you _think_ you've learned about. :(
Yeah, this is exactly the problem. It is not, in fact, illegal to be in this country without a visa. It's a purely civil matter. Like, parking ticket level.
Hauling citizens (or anyone, really) off the street and holding them for indeterminate amounts of times when they haven't committed any crime is not due process.
I don't believe there's a clear picture of what happens next.
Though I know some report the conditions inside the camps are pretty bad, access to lawyers is spotty, reportedly some people are deported without an official removal order / due process, and some people we don't know because they disappear from the public database that's supposed to inform family about the detained person's condition and whereabouts.
I'm not sure if all of that is covered in this BBC report, but feel free to read other journalistic sources
I'm always surprised more people don't know how many Nazis were in NATO offices and the West German federal police
It's not like people aren't still frothing at the mouth to repeat the same mistake in Venezuela or Palestine or Yemen. Maintaining empire requires shows of force. There's always profit to be made along the way. It motivates itself
JP Morgan was sloppy in it's mortgage approvals contributing to the financial crisis of 2007. Do you think that's not a serious matter? That was entirely a civil, not criminal matter.
And overstaying a visa has serious consequences. It's not a fine and you can go on living in the US illegally. You will be deported and receive a 3-10 year ban on re-entry. Reenter again and it's criminal matter.
But you're also ignoring the numerous criminal violations that occur with illegal immigration. Illegal entry, reentry after deportation, immigration fraud, using fraudulent documents, human trafficking, recieving social services reserved for citizens. All of these are criminal violations.
And no, investigating a possible civil or criminal matter and detaining people while you conduct your investigation has nothing to do with due process. Police and immigration officials need these limited powers to do their job. Each of these people detained will either be released or stand in front of a judge, which shows they received due process.
No. The model is, "Hey! this guy is being a pain in the ass. He even claimed that The President wasn't blessed with superintelligence and doesn't actually smell really good!
We need to get this terrorist off the streets! He sure looks a whole lot like that illegal on the FBI most wanted list, doesn't he? Off to CECOT with him!
What's that? He's a twelfth generation citizen? No way! Look, the app I used to claim this guy matches an illegal who's also a child rapist!
Your papers are all fake (if, as a citizen he's even carrying them). Onto the plane with you Senor.
That's the model. Feel free to disagree, but come back and reread this comment in 18 months. I hope you read it then and think "what a paranoid guy! Nothing like that could ever happen here!" But I'm not holding my breath. :(
Paul Bremer made something very, very stupid.
Perhaps because your peers are recent immigrants who are culturally and linguistically foreign to you, and are physically here primarily because the place they are originally from is terrible, rather than because they are actually interested in joining your community and sharing its values.
They have repeatedly violated the normal procedures, ignored court orders and even lied to judges. They obviously have contempt for the law so it doesn't make sense to assume that they are following proper procedures.
But at the same time, when the prior norms were incredibly lax to the point many immigration laws were ignored, suddenly enforcing what is on the books can look rather jarring.
Maybe start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uleKvJ5Xsw8
But regardless it’s a 30 min video, so is there something you feel is important because I don’t have the time. Maybe an article from a more reputable source?
I mean it starts with “ICE agents breaking car windows”. If you’re asked to exit your vehicle by a federal law officer and you just roll up the window that will happen. The US (and in fact no country) has rules where a law enforcement officer with probable cause is supposed to give up when a suspect refuses to follow orders.
The five minutes I listened to seemed suspect since it’s a women just saying “they do this” with no sources. Am I just supposed to take her at her word?
If you are an actual citizen, the law basically says they can briefly detain you to verify. Brief here is meant to be like "15 minutes". However, it is now taking weeks or months in some cases.
These are clear due process violations, and they are happening regularly now.
They also cannot simply ignore authoritative evidence of citizenship because a computer says otherwise, without violating due process (because it affects their ability to have cause).
Certainly they can ignore like a printout or something, but if you have a valid passport or real id drivers license (IE something considered authoritative), it's almost certainly a due process violation to ignore it and detain you for weeks anyway based on a facial recognition match.
“ICE officials have told us that an apparent biometric match by Mobile Fortify is a ‘definitive’ determination of a person’s status and that an ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien,”
"Trust the word of the black box" is pure technocratic dystopian nonsense.
Sure if you produce some secure form of proof that has no indication of being fraudulent there is no cause to detain.
But that’s not what’s happening in many cases. People using others ID. Questions about fraud in the immigration case itself.
If you have any examples of US citizens being detained for extended periods (actual citizens, not just a verbal claim) I’d be interested to read about them.
Due process means limiting the government. You do not get to drag citizens into unmarked vans because you think they might have violated a civil matter.
Do you want evidence of ICE ignoring legal others? Citizens who were arrested for no reason? An ICE officer admitting they target people based on how they look and not on any actual legal criteria?
Or do you just want to look away and not see?
A YouTube video where someone summarizes what they think is happening is not facts.
But like I said point me to a specific time in that 30 min video you think supports your claim.
You did watch the whole thing, right?
The first point should not apply to everyone, but the second absolutely must. Trusting an un-auditable black box over all other evidence to determine who is allowed in the country is a violation of everyone's human rights.
But if you want facts, let me google that for you. :)
Here's journalists documenting ICE arresting citizens. They do not have authority to do so: https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
ICE violating rights by deporting citizens: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna224501
ICE holds man in limbo for two and a half months, violating due process: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/oct/30/ice-hidden-d...
Judge rules ICE did not have probable cause: https://thebeaconnews.org/stories/2025/10/09/ice-arrests-imm...
Judge rules ICE behavior "unlawful" by holding someone with protected status for months: https://nysfocus.com/2025/11/01/ice-immigrant-teen-released
Judge rules agents are violating probable cause by making up ICE warrants on the spot: https://www.nprillinois.org/illinois/2025-10-08/court-scruti...
Judge rules ICE violating 5th amendment: https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/rcna218624
Judge rules ICE violating due process. They also are routinely starving detainees and even denying them water: https://calmatters.org/justice/2025/07/la-immigration-restra...
Judge tells ICE to stop using riot and less-lethal rounds on journalists and protesters: https://news.wttw.com/2025/10/14/trump-administration-contin...
If you can't find facts, then it's a skill issue.
I'm not sure about citizens being deported other than children of non-citizens together with their parents, but they are deporting huge numbers of people here legally on visas, green cards, and valid asylum claims. They revoked visas of some 6,000 college students - mostly for political "wrongthink" and then sent ICE agents after them, when it's actually legal in the USA for them to remain with a revoked student visa as long as they arrived legally, and illegal to detain or deport. They've also arrested and detained hundreds of citizens, that they absolutely knew were citizens, for peaceful protesting and video taping their illegal activities.
That’s incredibly disingenuous claim that “US citizens were deported”. ICE has already stated that US citizen child can remain with family in the US or go with their parents.
I’m guessing your other links of are similar quality.
Are you saying you’ve seen videos where ICE is like going to bus stops and just beating up random people? Everything I’ve seen is like, ICE rolls up, guys start running, ICE gets rough with them. Or ICE rolls up, people are heckling them, ICE gets rough with them. I think that would happen with any drug bust, for example. If people start heckling a swat team, does the swat team respond with kindness? Well, we don’t see many videos of that, because nobody heckles swat teams. Why are people fleeing, resisting or obstructing? They are law enforcement officers, and if you do that to them, you are going to have a bad time. Law enforcement in America has been like that for my entire life, at least.
Am I in some kind of filter bubble where I’ve only seen ICE videos of the sort I’ve described, and you’ve seen videos of ICE tackling a grandma getting the mail? I’m seriously asking, I just gave up watching videos like this because they were all like I described.
ICE refusing to look at documents seems not unreasonable, have all of those club bouncer tier men had training on how to spot fake government documents? Like can they know what every birth certificate from every state looks like from every year and then verify it on the spot? That doesn’t seem reasonable to expect once I thought about what it would entail.
> and any agents that try to act lawfully are purged
I was replying in a serious manner but comon this is flat earth tier foaming at the mouth stuff. You are seriously telling me that they are firing people who don’t break the law? That is like comic book tier villainy. How would we possibly even know that, did their policy book leak?
My theory is that this is triggering the mental programming everyone had as children about WW2 despite being a completely different situation. If you tell literally all children that X is the most evil thing ever, you might end up with adults who are so sensitive to recognizing X that they see it when it isn’t there.
That's news to me.
Distinguishing who is legally allowed to be in the country from who isn't is literally ICE's entire job. If they aren't capable of recognizing official government documentation that definitively proves someone is allowed to be in the country, get them some fucking training before they go around arresting people.
The people who are entrusted with the enormous power of enacting violence on behalf of the state must be held to a higher standard than the people who are entrusted with protecting nightclubs from 20 year olds trying to get booze.
In the last week there were massive purges of regional ICE leadership all around the country, replacing them with more militarized border patrol people, because they have been reluctant to use excessive force. In a 60 minutes interview in the last week, Trump openly stated that he thinks ICE still isn't being violent enough. These purges are not just happening in the government- private universities and companies have been extorted, or attempted to be extorted into performing ideological purges. Take a look at the outrageous letter Trump sent Harvard, demanding that they replace half of their faculty with those in personal political ideological alignment with him, subject to external review by someone he appoints.
Yes, ICE is entering communities and just violently beating up people unprovoked- there are literally hundreds of videos of it that I have seen, on Instagram in particular- including from the ACLU. Look at what happened in Wilder Idaho, where they detained every man, women, and child at a massive public horse racing event, and shot rubber bullets, zip tied, and handcuffed children while sadistically beating their parents in front of them- long high res videos of it are all over.
People absolutely have a legal right to 'heckle' or protest government sponsored violence in their communities, and are being brutalized or detained for exercising their 1st amendment rights, by masked agents refusing to identify so they cannot be held accountable, regardless of their crimes. No, it is not unreasonable to expect federal agents tasked with enforcing immigration law to be mentally capable of reading passports or birth certificates proving citizenship- border agents do this for a million people entering the USA legally every single day.
No, but not sure it matters?
"But that’s not what’s happening in many cases. People using others ID. Questions about fraud in the immigration case itself."
Of US citizens being detained? It 100% is not.
The propublica article below gives an example of a citizen being detained, twice, after providing a valid real id from alabama, in their own name.
"If you have any examples of US citizens being detained for extended periods (actual citizens, not just a verbal claim) I’d be interested to read about them."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-citizen-detained-ice... is one such case.
There are many others.
In the end, when they discover they are american citizens, they have often falsified affidavits and indicted them on "assaulting officer" charges. The vast majority of these indictments have been dismissed by judges for lack of any evidence.
In case you don't believe that is what happens, here's a case in texas last week where the judge was having none of it, and dismissed just such an indictment after pointing out they were lying repeatedly about their investigations into immigration status, and then lying about how force was used, see:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txwd.11...
If you want some more stories, here:
https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
I'm just pointing out the absurdity of claiming there's no faces in the facial recognition database
To me, free speech protections prevent rulers from closing off regions of ideology space, because they usually do so in their own self interest so we can’t trust them to do it even in cases when it is clearly for the true long term benefit of the group, which is why it is forbidden for them to forbid “speech”.
I also don’t believe in pornography as protected speech. I’m an atheist, I’m not a conservative, and I’m not against pornography. I don’t support pornography being made illegal. The protected speech argument for it is just stupid. And when you base reasonable practices on stupid legal arguments, you end up having… well, for example, abortion rights getting randomly rolled back by the court.
Yes, in a perfect utopia world, I agree with you that the hiding-foreigner purge guys would also be good at clerical type work. However, from what I’ve seen of humans, they can usually do one kind of thing or the other, not both. Like, guys who like to chase people and knock them down usually don’t like to perform detailed forgery analysis. To expect this is to expect ICE to be staffed by people with an uncommon trait combination. Have you had different experiences? If we had the FBI doing this, then yes the FBI can hire guys who can do both. If a massive org is spun up rapidly, then there is no way to apply the same kinds of hiring practices. I just don’t get the outrage here? Picture that happening in a movie, they hire a ton of guys who are beefy and like to throw people around, and then they rapidly train every one of them to spot fake passports and birth certificates from every state/year. That could make for an entertaining comedy plot, but would you find it realistic in a gritty drama?
Tangentially, I wonder why we haven’t seen more comparisons between ICE and the Spanish Inquisition, it feels much more accurate than the comparisons we do see (e.g. the other N word).