zlacker

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1. isopro+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-08-10 18:50:05
God fucking damn it not again

This is, what, the fifth time in ten years they try to pass shit like this?

replies(6): >>ath3nd+d >>9dev+p >>mantas+A >>idiots+c6 >>swayvi+vb >>brikym+ov
2. ath3nd+d[view] [source] 2025-08-10 18:52:20
>>isopro+(OP)
They generally don't and won't stop until there are real repercussions for that, like losing your political career/being canceled in society over voting for it.
replies(3): >>mantas+Q >>ncr100+Sh >>mirolj+1K1
3. 9dev+p[view] [source] 2025-08-10 18:54:35
>>isopro+(OP)
They only need to succeed one time. People are generally preoccupied with a lot of other things right now, so maybe this is their lucky shot…
replies(3): >>zubspa+O2 >>KennyB+G5 >>imposs+fa
4. mantas+A[view] [source] 2025-08-10 18:56:17
>>isopro+(OP)
As Juncker, ex president of European Commision said, you keep trying till it passes at some point. Good luck revoking it later…
replies(3): >>uncirc+a1 >>charci+o2 >>brikym+wv
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5. mantas+Q[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 18:57:53
>>ath3nd+d
The problem is people behind the curtains will just pick another figure head. And we can’t even get the names who want to get rid of privacy. Since names of people pushing it were redacted for their privacy :D
replies(3): >>morkal+x2 >>croes+XR >>nicksl+5p1
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6. uncirc+a1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 19:01:14
>>mantas+A
Ah, the marvels of modern democracy. No serious way to enact change, politicians still do whatever the hell they want, and we still believe that voting for someone else will change things.

It’ll soon be like the UK, that if you campaign against this kinda stuff, the party in power publicly calls you a paedophile. Because only people with something to hide want privacy.

Privacy is a losing proposition. Governments have the perfect trojan horse (child safety) so it’s only a matter of time before massive surveillance is the norm.

replies(4): >>croes+d2 >>calvin+s2 >>myacco+rb1 >>quetzt+Lc1
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7. croes+d2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 19:10:05
>>uncirc+a1
People don’t want change.

If really someone gets the power who wants to change things they fight them too.

People want that everything stays the same. Problem is climate change and other problems make change inevitable.

replies(2): >>mantas+W9 >>accoun+6q1
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8. charci+o2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 19:11:08
>>mantas+A
You can keep trying to revoke it until it passes too.
replies(1): >>mantas+Q9
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9. calvin+s2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 19:11:46
>>uncirc+a1
it effects lots of organizations. the left contingent of the PCUSA basically did the same for a decade to change rules. When they finally got the language passed it caused a large rift.

The difference is that one is not obligated to be part of a presbytery and can leave. The presbytery doesn't have guns.

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10. morkal+x2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 19:12:44
>>mantas+Q
When the people orchestrating something like this can hide behind a veil of anonymity as well as bestow exemptions from monitoring upon the political class, it looks deeply wrong and conspiracy worthy. :D indeed.
replies(1): >>Geezus+H4
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11. zubspa+O2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 19:16:35
>>9dev+p
It's a shitty system, if one side just needs to succeed one time while the other side needs to succeed over and over again.

What really should be done is to disallow proposals, which are kinda the same. Once a mass surveillance proposal like this is defeated, it shouldn't be allowed to be constantly rebranded and reintroduced. We need a firewall in our legislative process that automatically rejects any future attempts at scanning private communications.

replies(3): >>pessim+k4 >>CM30+1f >>nicksl+qo1
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12. pessim+k4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 19:31:27
>>zubspa+O2
> What really should be done is to disallow proposals, which are kinda the same.

This very much exists in a lot of parliamentary rules authorities, but it's usually limited to once per "session." They just need to make rules that span sessions that raise the bar for introducing substantially similar legislation.

It can easily be argued that passing something that failed to pass before, multiple times, should require supermajorities. Or at least to create a type of vote where you can move that something "should not" be passed without a supermajority in the future.

It is difficult in most systems to make negative motions. At the least it would have to be tailored as an explicit prohibition on passing anything substantially similar to the motion in future sessions (without suspending the rules with a supermajority.)

I don't know as much about the French Parlement's procedure as I would like to, though.

replies(2): >>Telema+46 >>Stevvo+x9
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13. Geezus+H4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 19:33:53
>>morkal+x2
The exemptions for politicians is straight out of 1984.
replies(1): >>thfura+6h
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14. KennyB+G5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 19:39:49
>>9dev+p
cough Patriot Act cough

...which Republicans swore up and down was temporary and yet, oddly, kept getting renewed wirth no evidence whatsoever it was necessary to stop a planned terrorist attack or that it would have stopped the WTC attacks themselves.

I bet 90% of the population or more has no idea that the Patriot Act was dumped and replaced with the nearly identical FREEDOM Act. Which took multiple tries to pass because they knew if they just kept hammering away, they'd eventually get it passed.

Yeah, they called a wildly invasive domestic spying bill the "freedom" act....

replies(2): >>dlcarr+0b >>r_lee+MA
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15. Telema+46[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 19:41:45
>>pessim+k4
Is there no way to codify a negative right, like “The right of the European people to privacy in their communications and security in their records through encryption shall not be infringed?” Negative rights reserved to the people should be more important than positive laws granting power to the government.
replies(2): >>rsynno+cp1 >>accoun+xp1
16. idiots+c6[view] [source] 2025-08-10 19:42:33
>>isopro+(OP)
The fascist, autocratic impulse is a big in the human firmware and will never go away. We exist constantly balanced on the razor edge precipice because we are capable of little else. Self-governing humans are not a stable system.
replies(1): >>swayvi+Sa
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17. Stevvo+x9[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 20:09:18
>>pessim+k4
This rule can really hurt. e.g. Theresa May tried passing a deal to keep the UK in the Customs Union. The speaker wouldn't allow it because the same deal had previously been rejected, even though she now had the support for it in the house.
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18. mantas+Q9[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 20:12:20
>>charci+o2
Yeah, right. I wonder if revokers would have same privacy as those who try to pass it…
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19. mantas+W9[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 20:13:37
>>croes+d2
People don’t want change, yet politicians are pushing sleazy changes left and right.

Change like straws ban and attached caps? Such change, wow.

replies(1): >>croes+MR
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20. imposs+fa[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 20:15:52
>>9dev+p
They actually did succeed once, with the data retention directive. That got annulled by the CoJEU.
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21. swayvi+Sa[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 20:20:08
>>idiots+c6
Serfs and lords is pretty stable. But ya I get yr point.
replies(1): >>idiots+v47
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22. dlcarr+0b[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 20:20:53
>>KennyB+G5
It's not even a partisan issue; spying on the constituency is one of few issues that has broad bipartisan support.

You could vote for a libertarian, but good luck.

23. swayvi+vb[view] [source] 2025-08-10 20:24:50
>>isopro+(OP)
The arrival of AI has made mass surveillance pass a certain threshold. Now we're just a step away from aristocrat heaven.
replies(1): >>ncr100+Ih
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24. CM30+1f[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 21:02:56
>>zubspa+O2
I wonder if it'd be possible to fix a lot of these issues by having a constitution with damn near impossibly strict standards for changing it that rely on the entire population agreeing (or close to it)?

So there might be a right to privacy or freedom of speech enshrined in law, and the only way to change it would be for 90+% of the population to agree to change it. That way, it'd only take a minority disagreeing with a bad law to make it impossible to pass said law. Reactionaries and extremists would basically be defanged entirely, since they'd have to get most of their opponents to agree with any changes they propose, not just their own followers.

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25. thfura+6h[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 21:17:27
>>Geezus+H4
They weren’t exempt in 1984.
replies(1): >>Electr+Ei1
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26. ncr100+Ih[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 21:21:56
>>swayvi+vb
Yup super easy to moderate, monitor, and manipulate.

Watchlist? Easy.

Mislead? Easy.

We need to isolate this bad behavior ASAP.

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27. ncr100+Sh[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 21:23:31
>>ath3nd+d
Yup.

Having empathy for your neighbor, and working with those whom you disagree, are precursors. This gives power.

Then using power to enact consequences for businesses and governments (the people therein), fixes the problem.

28. brikym+ov[view] [source] 2025-08-10 23:16:05
>>isopro+(OP)
What do they gain? The only reason I can think of it's that it's deep state control. If there was a conspiracy like that would they be acting much differently?
replies(1): >>palata+y11
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29. brikym+wv[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 23:16:57
>>mantas+A
Well it's pretty difficult to organize any opposition once they're reading all the messages.
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30. r_lee+MA[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 00:04:35
>>KennyB+G5
Yeah I have a feeling this thing is gonna be exactly like that. Even if this doesn't pass, they'll just rename and repackage it and try again until everyone gets fatigued enough and doesn't have energy to oppose it anymore
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31. croes+MR[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 03:58:00
>>mantas+W9
That are alibi changes because the real necessary changes are too unpopular
replies(1): >>mantas+Yj2
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32. croes+XR[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 03:59:43
>>mantas+Q
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(organization)
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33. palata+y11[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 06:27:17
>>brikym+ov
> The only reason I can think of it's that it's deep state control.

Then you lack imagination :-). Let me give one example: "I am a fundamentally good guy, and I want to protect the people. If I was given access to all the communications of everybody, it would be easier for me to do my job and to improve the security for everybody".

Of course, (as you know) this is flawed, be it just because you can't guarantee that a surveillance system will only ever be used by fundamentally good guys in the eyes of their people. Or said differently, if you create a backdoor for the good guys, you also create a backdoor for the bad guys.

But it's easy to be well-intentioned and not understand that it's impossible to build cryptography only for the good guys. No need to invent a deep state when the simplest explanation is "the people who believe it are uninformed".

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34. myacco+rb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 08:18:50
>>uncirc+a1
No serious way to enact change? That's not true at all.
replies(1): >>nicksl+mp1
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35. quetzt+Lc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 08:33:43
>>uncirc+a1
the western democracy was lost not with trump/farage etc but with the entrenched liberals who decried democracy redefining it as populism and institutional entrenchment as true democracy. This is fallout from it. The populist movements happened because the liberals who once stood for working class people abandoned the poor and working class. Nobody cared then and some even mocked the working class. Now everyone here/reddit/etc cares because suddenly they are affected and its an issue that they identify with and not just the working class. Good times. You won't be able to do anything. They will walk all over you just like when they walked all over the working class.
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36. Electr+Ei1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 09:27:48
>>thfura+6h
Upper class could completly turn off their telescreens, meaning they have partial exemptions at least. For middle class they were always on. Proles had no telescreen because they were considered to lack brains. Even the Party had levels, Inner and Outer, with different rules.

1984 would be incomplete without the hypocrisy of "rules for thee not for me".

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37. nicksl+qo1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 10:23:27
>>zubspa+O2
It exists. Except these mfs will not put the proposal to vote if they know it will not pass. Instead they try again and again to gather the votes.
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38. nicksl+5p1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 10:30:46
>>mantas+Q
Context: https://digitalcourage.social/@echo_pbreyer/1114997695267549...
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39. rsynno+cp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 10:32:29
>>Telema+46
Yes; they could amend the definitely-not-a-constitution (for branding/eurosceptic-appeasement reasons, the EU constitution was rebranded as the Lisbon treaty before adoption). Arguably such a right may exist already and this legislation might find itself on a collision course with the ECJ if it passed (notably the ECJ nuked _another_ intrusive law, back in the day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive).
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40. nicksl+mp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 10:34:29
>>myacco+rb1
How exactly are you going to repeal ChatControl or ProtectEU when the same people who lobbied for these proposals/laws are the ones who would have to repeal it? Ursula survived a no confidence vote just a month ago.
replies(1): >>myacco+2r4
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41. accoun+xp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 10:36:27
>>Telema+46
In some ways yes but we've already seen with covid that governments are happy to behave unconstitutionally even when it's clear they will eventually lose in court - by then their targets have already been dragged through the mud.
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42. accoun+6q1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 10:43:59
>>croes+d2
People both do and don't want change. Not all change is good and some (most really) should be fought.

> Problem is climate change and other problems make change inevitable.

That's a convenient argument for people who want to push unpopular changes.

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43. mirolj+1K1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 13:46:41
>>ath3nd+d
> They generally don't and won't stop until there are real repercussions for that, like losing your political career/being canceled in society over voting for it.

I wouldn't call login political career or being cancelled and voted out "real repercussions". They can pretty much retire and enjoy the rest of their lives with all the lobby money and EU rents.

Real repercussion would mean prison time and losing their property, but we all know that won't happen anytime soon.

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44. mantas+Yj2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 16:35:32
>>croes+MR
Then don’t do any changes. Such BS changes are counter-productive and just a waste of resources.
replies(1): >>croes+sh4
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45. croes+sh4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-12 08:26:17
>>mantas+Yj2
>Then don’t do any changes. Such BS changes

So there are changes

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46. myacco+2r4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-12 10:03:04
>>nicksl+mp1
It's not over yet. We can still fight it.

I don't think democracy is perfect, especially in this case. But I come from a very regulated country, and have lived in countries with far less regulation. The comfort that comes knowing that my food is somewhat safe to eat, that I have access to healthcare, that most workers have good working condition with lots of holiday. This all came from regulation and democracy, and it's great. I don't think mistrust of institutions and democracy is the way to go.

replies(2): >>nicksl+Os4 >>mantas+SJ4
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47. nicksl+Os4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-12 10:24:25
>>myacco+2r4
It's not over but sorry - they have lost all my trust. With governments like these who needs enemies?
replies(1): >>myacco+iA4
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48. myacco+iA4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-12 11:32:57
>>nicksl+Os4
There's absolutely reason to lose faith in the system, I'm just as guilty of that. At the same time, it has helped me to know that in many parts of the world there's been slides into authoritarianism, and in cases where there's been strong push-back its been possible to reverse it. It's when there's no push back that it becomes worse.

Objectively, it's still possible to fight it and democracy is still a good venture for making improvements.

replies(1): >>mantas+7K4
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49. mantas+SJ4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-12 12:44:44
>>myacco+2r4
The problem is once trust gets too high, government powers get abused and then we get shit like chat control. Which is not democratical. Over time, less trust should bring government back under control and the cycle repeats. Hopefully. If democratical feedback process still works.

Of course it’s nicer to live where you can trust your government to represent your interests. But blind trust just because mistrust is not nice is one of the worst options.

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50. mantas+7K4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-12 12:46:25
>>myacco+iA4
Applied modern democracy and theoretical democracy are two different things. But yes, we should strive to get to a better version of democracy. Instead of just saying democracy BAD.
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51. idiots+v47[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-13 03:51:54
>>swayvi+Sa
Is it? Every human society has been an incredibly brief enterprise, on the scale of, for example, geologic time.
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