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[parent] [thread] 32 comments
1. kstrau+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-01-13 18:51:50
The problem comes from deciding what's true. It's factually true to say that a higher percentage of black people than white people are convicted felons. It's also grossly negligent to describe that as a cause ("black people have higher tendencies to become criminals") than as an effect ("centuries of systemic racism held higher numbers of black people in poverty, and poverty highly correlates to the kind of criminal behavior that gets you arrested, and also lower quality legal representation, which makes it more likely that the next generation will also be poor; lather, rise, repeat").

Is it a lie to say "black people are more likely to be felons"? No, but if that's all you have to say on the subject, then you're probably a jerk and shouldn't be talking about it at all.

TL;DR I'm weary of people saying things that are factually true on the face of them, but that utterly distort the conversation. See also: "scientists don't know how old the universe is" (but have a broad consensus of a narrow band of values), "vaccines can harm you" (so can water), "it's getting cooler in some places" (global climate change doesn't add X degrees to every location uniformly), etc. etc. etc.

replies(3): >>baggy_+H >>Vegeno+Nv1 >>ZeroGr+qx2
2. baggy_+H[view] [source] 2025-01-13 18:54:41
>>kstrau+(OP)
True things which make you a jerk (to some) shouldn't be censored to avoid "distorting the conversation". Respondents can explain the context.
replies(3): >>jandre+Y1 >>kstrau+Ne >>e_y_+Jf
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3. jandre+Y1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 19:00:13
>>baggy_+H
The flipslide is trolls will spew out the lies faster than you can rebut them. Much faster. Orders of magnitude faster. The lie is short, pithy, and requires little thought. The truth require context and effort. After a lie has been rebutted several times there is little value in allowing it to be repeated constantly. Eventually the truth tellers get worn down and the lie is allowed to live on in perpetuity, allowing more and more people to believe it over time.
replies(2): >>baggy_+y2 >>theman+jn
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4. baggy_+y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 19:02:33
>>jandre+Y1
That is a view which is entirely opposed to my own. I have no faith that there is some authoritative entity that could objectively determine what is a lie and what is the truth.
replies(3): >>perlge+W7 >>layer8+St >>mrandi+Eo1
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5. perlge+W7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 19:23:10
>>baggy_+y2
If you don't act against disinformation, you get a world that is spammed with so many statements that it's impossible for the average consumer to assess the truth of any of them.

Is that what you want?

If yes, why? If not, what's your approach?

replies(2): >>baggy_+Q9 >>dec0de+zI
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6. baggy_+Q9[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 19:29:30
>>perlge+W7
I already stated my approach. Let speech be met by more speech in return. Consumers can assess the credibility of each.
replies(3): >>tricer+Ub >>jandre+ic >>acuozz+Zu
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7. tricer+Ub[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 19:35:54
>>baggy_+Q9
> Consumers can assess the credibility of each.

I ain't doing all that work. I'm picking whatever I already believe in.

/s but only kind of. That's how most people think. They aren't enlightened like you.

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8. jandre+ic[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 19:37:22
>>baggy_+Q9
But your approach results in someone who can't even conceive of the truth being identifiable. It doesn't seem like a great way to run a society.
replies(2): >>baggy_+7C >>potato+jq1
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9. kstrau+Ne[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 19:45:46
>>baggy_+H
I agree that the government should not censor statements that don't violated specific laws.

I am strongly convinced that any person or organization has the right to moderate content flowing through the systems they host. If you want to say "I don't believe the Holocaust happened", that should be your legal right. It should be my legal right to tell you, "go get your own soapbox to spout that nonsense. You're not doing it on my dime."

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10. e_y_+Jf[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 19:49:22
>>baggy_+H
I would generally agree, but in many cases 1) people don't read the comments/replies, 2) interesting responses get drowned out by low-quality responses, 3) the criteria by which useful responses get highlighted can be skewed by a variety of factors, including vote brigading and algorithmic bias or sometimes just a bias towards the earliest comments (which get upvotes, which then get more views, which get more upvotes).
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11. theman+jn[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 20:18:43
>>jandre+Y1
So who gets to be arbiter of truth? and what is the recourse if they are wrong?
replies(1): >>cocaco+cm1
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12. layer8+St[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 20:41:53
>>baggy_+y2
The opposite of “truth” is not “lie”, however.
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13. acuozz+Zu[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 20:46:47
>>baggy_+Q9
> Consumers can assess the credibility of each.

Assuming intelligence is normally distributed, then what's the plan for the bottom 50% here?

replies(1): >>baggy_+eC
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14. baggy_+7C[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 21:13:13
>>jandre+ic
I am unable to connect your sentence to what I said.
replies(1): >>jandre+wN
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15. baggy_+eC[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 21:13:47
>>acuozz+Zu
As stated.
replies(1): >>acuozz+y63
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16. dec0de+zI[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 21:43:51
>>perlge+W7
Let people be wrong
replies(1): >>kstrau+FU
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17. jandre+wN[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 22:10:53
>>baggy_+7C
> I have no faith that there is some authoritative entity that could objectively determine what is a lie and what is the truth.

I read this as "it is impossible to determine truth". If there exists a well resourced entity who's entire purpose in life is to determine objective truth and they are unable to do so what chance do I have?

replies(1): >>baggy_+cS2
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18. kstrau+FU[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 22:47:10
>>dec0de+zI
That's great until it convinces them to make real-world decisions that affect the rest of us. For instance, vaccine misinformation talked a lot of people against getting safe (or at least safer than the illness), effective (not perfect, but effective) immunity shots for COVID. Those people are dead from being wrong.

I think someone's an idiot for denying the moon landings, but their ignorance doesn't directly affect my ability to stay alive and health. Some misinformation is worse than others.

replies(2): >>kiitos+Ls1 >>baggy_+UR2
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19. cocaco+cm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 01:27:54
>>theman+jn
No one, and nothing.
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20. mrandi+Eo1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 01:48:04
>>baggy_+y2
Well said. It surprises me so many people don't see the danger inherent in anointing 'fact checkers' who are supposed to adjudicate some objective "truth" around complex culture war issues along with the power to suppress other viewpoints.

Free speech isn't free. We pay for it by tolerating speech that's unpleasant, uncomfortable, wrong, insulting, offensive or hateful.

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21. potato+jq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 01:59:01
>>jandre+ic
Having the power to determine truth does not seem like a great way to run a society even if it gets you some easy wins on other fronts.

It might work at first and be effective for some time in the same way that a dictator can "get things done" but there is no free lunch.

Eventually you will get evil dictators, power hungry arbitrators of truth. It will bite you. It is only a question of when. It might be years or generations. The only winning move is not to play. Don't concentrate the power in the first place.

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22. kiitos+Ls1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 02:21:34
>>kstrau+FU
Judges are fallible, therefore a judicial system is impossible!
23. Vegeno+Nv1[view] [source] 2025-01-14 02:47:31
>>kstrau+(OP)
To expound, "black people are more likely to be felons" is only true (in the truest sense of the word "true") given a clear definition of what "likely" means, and the conditions under which the statement is true.

The statement could easily be interpreted as either:

- when selecting a random black person and a random white person out of the current American population, there is a statistically higher chance that the black person is a felon than the white person

- black people are more inclined towards committing felonies than white people, and will continue to do so at a higher rate

These have very different meanings, but are both fair and natural interpretations of the information-deficient statement "black people are more likely to be felons". Given that, the statement will likely cause more confusion and argument than clarity, and so is a bad statement.

24. ZeroGr+qx2[view] [source] 2025-01-14 13:21:57
>>kstrau+(OP)
There's a term for lying with carefully selected truths: Paltering.

> Paltering is when a communicator says truthful things and in the process knowingly leads the listener to a false conclusion. It has the same effect as lying, but it allows the communicator to say truthful things and, some of our studies suggest, feel like they're not being as deceptive as liars.

replies(1): >>kstrau+wX2
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25. baggy_+UR2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 15:07:58
>>kstrau+FU
The corrosive effect of suppressing potential misinformation is far worse than allowing it to spread.
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26. baggy_+cS2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 15:09:08
>>jandre+wN
You just have to use your best judgement like everybody else.
replies(1): >>jandre+Yt7
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27. kstrau+wX2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 15:32:11
>>ZeroGr+qx2
It also lets the liar try to trap rebuttals with gotchas. In this case, “so you’re saying there aren’t a higher percentage of black people in prison? A-ha! Facts, not feelings!”, or something stupid like that. Then you have to waste time with that, to which they’ll reply, “so you admit they’re more likely, a-ha!”

I’ve found it more effective to just say “you’re wrong” and move on. The end result of the argument is the same, and it gets them all riled up, which is generally what they’d hoped to inflict on others.

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28. acuozz+y63[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 16:08:51
>>baggy_+eC
Understood. It's an interesting long-term strategy to revive Feudalism.
replies(1): >>baggy_+ao3
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29. baggy_+ao3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 17:03:42
>>acuozz+y63
More a strategy to avoid totalitarianism.
replies(1): >>acuozz+gN3
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30. acuozz+gN3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 18:32:26
>>baggy_+ao3
By leaving the bottom 50% to be propagandized by populists?

If we were still living in the time of thirteen channels and Walter Cronkite on the CBS Evening News, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

replies(1): >>baggy_+vT3
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31. baggy_+vT3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 18:58:11
>>acuozz+gN3
An elite thinking that they know the truth and should suppress falsehoods is much more dangerous, so yes.
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32. jandre+Yt7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-15 19:33:21
>>baggy_+cS2
That's the problem though. Your judgement gets warped by the constant stream of lies. That's the fundamental concept behind propaganda. If you repeat a lie enough times it will be believed. Everybody thinks they're too smart to be taken in by propaganda, that's one of the reasons it works so well.
replies(1): >>baggy_+aNb
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33. baggy_+aNb[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-16 23:43:45
>>jandre+Yt7
That's true, and it works both ways.
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