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1. canuck+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-12-13 07:16:29
In the early 1990s, I was working on GUI email software. Not much different than the email software at university, just the pixel resolution was higher with GUI.

The dev team went out "into the field" to help roll out the software to the company. This also allowed us to see how others used the software.

At the end of the day, one of the devs reported back that one personal assistant would maximize the email app's window (back when 17" CRT monitors were large) and after each email was processed, she'd print out the email and file it the appropriate spot in a filing cabinet.

All the devs were, "But... But... she can just file the email in an email folder in the program. Why does she need hardcopy? Email was supposed to save trees!"

replies(7): >>ido+f2 >>a2tech+4l >>irthom+6o >>cess11+iw >>SoftTa+Q11 >>smcleo+Lj1 >>agumon+Xr1
2. ido+f2[view] [source] 2024-12-13 07:48:33
>>canuck+(OP)
In the early 90s (maybe '92 or '93) my elementary school had a program where we'd go to the computer room and email kids in another school. There was nothing else to do on those computers that involved the internet (no web browsers), these were (relatively) state of the art 386s running DOS.

Anyway I remember we used to write our weekly emails on paper first and then type them into the computer- your quote reminded me of that!

3. a2tech+4l[view] [source] 2024-12-13 12:16:18
>>canuck+(OP)
Right after graduating college my wife was looking for work and ended up taking a job as a secretary shared between two chairs at our local university. They thought it was super important that their secretary had a bachelors degree for some reason.

One of the chairs would read emails on his iMac, then would handwrite a return message and give it to my wife who would type it into email and send it as him. He didn’t want to type anything. This was around 2008 to give you an idea of timing. My wife didn’t stay for long, but my understanding is he was doing this until he retired sometime in the 20 teens.

replies(4): >>ghaff+uy >>ddingu+DL >>SoftTa+p21 >>vidarh+6N1
4. irthom+6o[view] [source] 2024-12-13 12:59:07
>>canuck+(OP)
In 2012 I was at a company that entered data into a custom program backed by sql. The user would then take a screenshot of the main card after saving it. They would then print the screenshot, hole punch it, hand write names and reference numbers and then file it in cabinets in the file room.
5. cess11+iw[view] [source] 2024-12-13 14:15:39
>>canuck+(OP)
I do work in public sector archiving, mainly retirement of software systems that have been replaced but hold information that needs to be stored for archival purposes.

The archiving software in this area is quite obnoxious and user unfriendly, so it happens every now and then that counties or government agencies decide to just print the lot of it on paper and put it in physical archives.

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6. ghaff+uy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 14:30:01
>>a2tech+4l
2008. Wow.

But I do remember going back to the 90s that there was at least one senior exec at a computer company I worked for who basically didn't touch his terminal as I understand it. His admin printed out and typed everything.

replies(1): >>dublin+wT
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7. ddingu+DL[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 15:42:44
>>a2tech+4l
Old school status statement right there.
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8. dublin+wT[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 16:32:02
>>ghaff+uy
This attitude is still presenet among doctors, and is one reason why electronic Medical Records still suck, and why Obama's "Affordable Care Act" has made American healthcare simultaneously the most expensive in the world as well as among the worst in the world. Doctors consider their time too valuable to be used in slow and fiddly data entry, so they offload it to additional staff.

They're not entirely wrong in this regard - modern EMR web UIs are arguably inferior in many ways to some light pen driven systems of the 1970s-80s (I'm thinking especially of the old TDS system, which nurses (and the few docs that used them) loved because it was so easy and quick - replacing or "upgrading" it was like pulling teeth, and the nurses fought hard to keep it in every case I ever saw.)

replies(3): >>ghaff+1X >>nradov+6G1 >>vidarh+yN1
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9. ghaff+1X[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 17:00:09
>>dublin+wT
The younger docs seem more amenable but there still seems to be a ton of electronic paperwork for the benefit. That said, my "community hospital" got bought by one of the two big systems in my area and, from a patient standpoint, things like prescriptions and labs especially seem much more automated than in the past.
replies(1): >>TheNew+8h3
10. SoftTa+Q11[view] [source] 2024-12-13 17:33:53
>>canuck+(OP)
> Why does she need hardcopy? Email was supposed to save trees!

Old habits take a while to change. Managers and executives were used to reports and memos on paper. So when email arrived, it was very common for secretaries to print emails for their bosses to read. Even at one of my early jobs in the 1990s, changes deployed to production had to be documented in memo form, and a copy of the memo printed, along with diffs of the code changes, and filed in a filing cabinet.

We got there eventually. I'd say that for all but the oldest generation still working, printing any kind of document to hardcopy has become pretty rare, at least where I'm working.

replies(1): >>bluGil+gf1
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11. SoftTa+p21[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 17:36:30
>>a2tech+4l
A contemporary of my parents was a research chemist, he wrote all his research papers longhand and had a secretary type them up for publication.
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12. bluGil+gf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 19:08:49
>>SoftTa+Q11
Paper is a lot easier to read than a screen, even a modern 4k monitor is harder on the eyes than paper (I have no tried epaper displays). Paper also provides a lot more resolution, sometimes when the code is tricky the only sane option is to print out all 3 chains worth of that class (you can should turn that into sensible measurements via your favorite unit converted to get a sense of scale, but I think you will agree chains is the correct measure), spread it out on the floor with a pen and start reading and cross referencing things.
13. smcleo+Lj1[view] [source] 2024-12-13 19:40:28
>>canuck+(OP)
I once met with NEC who was wanted to hire some consultants to help them on your cloud journey. They wanted to become a cloud managed services and hosting provider - but had never done anything in 'cloud' before, this seemed odd to me and as I dug deeper things got weirder.

They demanded that their 'engineers' must be able to build out and manage both their own and their managed infra on AWS but never write any code - in fact they thought automation was outright dangerous, they said their engineers would never write any terraform, cloud formation or similar and that they wanted to become a MSP of cloud services preferring to write everything down in runbooks... and print those runbooks out.

The managers would turn up to meetings with huge stacks of paper that were just AWS documentation converted to pdf and printed.

We refused to work with them and essentially walked out. I'm sure this is something that someone like an Accenture or Deloitte would and probably did jump on.

This was 2019.

14. agumon+Xr1[view] [source] 2024-12-13 20:38:33
>>canuck+(OP)
I worked at large retail store, massaging excel files for sales dept. One day I got to their floor, only to see their A3 printers working all day long. They made all excel sheets into paper because the screen aren't large enough, then write down fixes with a pencil and later update the spreadsheet on computer. 2010. (learned about cultural inertia and corporate "efficiency")
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15. nradov+6G1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 22:47:21
>>dublin+wT
Physician time is valuable. There is essentially a fixed supply and other bottlenecks in the healthcare system make adding more doctors a very slow process. That's why forward-thinking health systems employ medical scribes to offload data entry.

https://www.scribeamerica.com/what-is-a-medical-scribe/

The TDS Health Care System had some unique advantages but unfortunately it was tied to obsolete technology and ultimately a dead end. Web UIs aren't necessarily a problem. Some of the most popular EHRs such as Epic use native thick client applications. The fundamental issue is that healthcare is inherently more complex than almost any other business domain, with every medical specialty needing a different workflow plus beyond the clinical stuff there are extensive documentation requirements imposed by payers and government regulators. Sometimes clinicians and administrators insist on certain functionality even when it makes no sense due to ego or ignorance. EHRs can be improved but I know from painful experience how expensive and time consuming it is to get everything right.

https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/89482.89511

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16. vidarh+6N1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 23:58:25
>>a2tech+4l
Much , but in '95 I cofounded an ISP and remember being astounded when we had to teach our investor how to use a mouse.

When thinking back, it wasn't at all unreasonable at that time not to have used one, but it already seemed unfathomable.

It's one of those "the future is here, it's just not evenly distributed" (paraphrased after William Gibson)

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17. vidarh+yN1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-14 00:03:34
>>dublin+wT
US healthcare was already the most expense long before Obama.
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18. TheNew+8h3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-14 20:18:11
>>ghaff+1X
The amount of electronic paperwork seems to be much more than when it was all on paper.

When I was a kid my medical chart was paper. When I was around 13 years old the pediatrician’s office moved to an EMR.

It was more or less a digital version of the same chart.

As I have grown older, and with the benefit of having medical professionals in my family, I’ve seen how EMRs have changed from a distance. From an anecdotal perspective it seems like charting is more time consuming than it used to be. I’ve witnessed many different medical professionals using many different EMR platforms, and poor design seems to be a factor there.

They also deal with more information on a patient and in an aggregate form than paper charts ever did. From what I’ve observed I would venture a guess that more than a little of that is the result of neuroses and anal tendencies on the part of healthcare executives rather than quality improvement initiatives or research oriented objectives. There are other externalities like bad vendor implementation for CMMS requirements, or the continued granulation of conditions into ever more ICD codes, which then need crosswalk databases and interfaces and cross checks.

On the patient side, I’ve only ever truly been impressed by Epic’s portal. Every other one I’ve used is comparative garbage. I have recently been having a conversation with a manager at my doctor’s office trying to understand why and what changed so that chart data that used to be visible to me are now only visible to them, and why they can’t change that. It seems like the vendor implemented a forced change and I may just have to live with having ambiguously incomplete access to data I used to have access to, with no insight into what’s incomplete unless I already know.

With all of that said, at least there’s some access to one’s own health data. And comparing that to my birth records, which are functionally illegible (likely forever), at least what records are kept will be decipherable twenty years from now. Presuming they’re not mangled by a migration, which I’ve seen happen several times.

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