zlacker

[parent] [thread] 44 comments
1. Superm+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-12-12 22:24:53
The productivity increases of the modern times led to a corporate class. These oligarchs have eschewed the progressive initiatives, in eager pursuit of even greater wealth, supported by the wholly owned media and a bribed political class. What has been more evenly distributed globally is the ever-growing poverty, pollution and apathy against these powers.

To be fair, some improvements have been made, even at the feet of these giants, driven by government action and populist initiatives. This has been at the cost of concentration and increases in pollution and poverty in the poorest nations. The future looks bleak today, as the divide grows and progressive progress has all but halted.

replies(7): >>ryandr+p9 >>JKCalh+0h >>androi+5m >>kiba+sm >>lkbm+Nn >>slibhb+Eo >>gessha+rr
2. ryandr+p9[view] [source] 2024-12-12 23:52:40
>>Superm+(OP)
We're all so pessimistic about the future not because we think it's going to be captured by the plutocrats and oligarchs, but because we know the future has already been preemptively captured by them. They're all doing the work now to cement their positions in the future, and there's nothing the rest of us can do about it.

I don't know what great inventions and technological leaps we are going to see in 2030, 2040, or 2050, but what I do know is that the benefits and wealth from them will be captured by the same class that is capturing everything today.

replies(4): >>deadba+Jk >>dsign+HK >>shadow+sZ >>vouaob+l52
3. JKCalh+0h[view] [source] 2024-12-13 01:12:35
>>Superm+(OP)
"Soylent Green" seems more and more prescient. I'm not talking about turning people into food — not even the over-population fracas depicted in the film (that seems to have been a distinctly 70's-era fear).

Seeing the film again I notice the way it portrays the untouchable wealthy classes (briefly) and then the rest of us. (I should read the book [1] because I was intrigued by little scenes like the one with the old people in the library — if you even remember that bit.)

[1] "Make Room! Make Room!" by Harry Harrison

◧◩
4. deadba+Jk[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 01:56:48
>>ryandr+p9
That’s what they want us to believe. But at the end of the day, we can always fight. There’s little they can do to stop a massive violent uprising.
replies(4): >>TOGoS+gw >>downWi+KJ >>vouaob+D52 >>Throwa+uS3
5. androi+5m[view] [source] 2024-12-13 02:18:12
>>Superm+(OP)
without the so called "corporate class" or capitalists and their relentless effort to pursue wealth, everyone would be worse off today. Billons died from communist wet stream in the 20 century but the lessons are still not learned. Yes, government regulation is important but capitalism is the reason why millions of people are not starving today unlike any other periods in time.
replies(1): >>ben_w+rJ
6. kiba+sm[view] [source] 2024-12-13 02:24:31
>>Superm+(OP)
It's so easy to blame it all on the feet of oligarchs, but it is ultimately our collective responsibility. The democrats lost the popular vote. Think about that.

Progress, or even the status quo as it is today is rejected by half of the population.

replies(3): >>mandma+W51 >>vouaob+V52 >>ilrwbw+Wf6
7. lkbm+Nn[view] [source] 2024-12-13 02:41:47
>>Superm+(OP)
> This has been at the cost of concentration and increases in pollution and poverty in the poorest nations.

Poverty is way down globally. Poor nations are far from where they need to be, but we've lifted a billion or so people out of abject poverty in my lifetime.

Don't let a determination to believe everything is bad force you to ignore when things get better.

replies(2): >>circle+tT >>vouaob+Q52
8. slibhb+Eo[view] [source] 2024-12-13 02:54:11
>>Superm+(OP)
This attitude is so common. It's obviously wrong. Humanity is richer and freer than ever. Here's a theory of why people spend so much time railing against modernity, capitalism, and "the corporate class":

Humans used to have to labor all to avoid starvation. There were few choices and most of us we died in the town where we were born. Compare to today -- now, we have incredible freedom, cheap and delicious food, cheap ubiquitous entertainment, are more or less immune to the elements, and have tons of free time. But all of this freedom and plenty has forced us to make choices, and it turns out people aren't good at making choices. We struggle to not gorge ourselves on food or waste years of our lives on insipid entertainment. We would like to exercise, eat right, read books, learn things, contribute meaningfully to our areas of interest -- but most of us don't. Worse, we have no excuse for our choices because we are almost completely free.

This dynamic leads to a situation where people hate modernity. Partly because making choices is hard and partly because our freedom makes it clear that our bad choices are our own fault. And so people long for a return to un-freedom. Many of us would rather be poor and starving than to have to make choices and face our own inadequacies.

replies(3): >>Teever+yt >>Jambal+MH >>Zephyr+m31
9. gessha+rr[view] [source] 2024-12-13 03:41:57
>>Superm+(OP)
“We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings.” Ursula Le Guin

https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/ursulakleguinnatio...

◧◩
10. Teever+yt[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 04:19:33
>>slibhb+Eo
No, people hate modern society because they understand that although things are better than they were they aren't nearly as good as they could be if it wasn't for rampant and unchecked corruption.

What's worse is that people know that whole ecosystems and stable climate patterns are slipping away and will likely never come back.

replies(1): >>circle+CT
◧◩◪
11. TOGoS+gw[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 05:05:00
>>deadba+Jk
Or a massive not-violent one. Just stop working.

The ruling class will bring the violence soon enough.

replies(1): >>vouaob+G52
◧◩
12. Jambal+MH[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 08:03:04
>>slibhb+Eo
Do you think cost of living today is lower than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago? Do you think the average person today works more or less than before?

Because I’m really curious what you mean when you say we’re more free than ever. Free time especially is what eludes most people of my peer group; endless tv shows to stream is meaningless without free time for example.

replies(3): >>ben_w+eK >>yorwba+RK >>Zephyr+W21
◧◩
13. ben_w+rJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 08:26:08
>>androi+5m
> Billons died from communist wet stream in the 20 century but the lessons are still not learned

Billions didn't.

USSR census population in 1989 was only 286 million total, while the Holodomor and the Cambodian genocide combined were between 4.4-8 million.

And the Holodomor (and broader famine in the rest of the USSR) looks suspiciously similar to the failure mode of the British government with the Irish potato famine and the Indian famines under British rule, each of which played a part in those people wanting independence, as does the Chinese great leap forward's 15-55 million.

Even with those, and the Chinese famine happened so soon into a transition away from agrarian society that to me it seems more like a tragedy than a consequence, it's still not billions.

No, what saved billions from starvation is fertiliser, and policies of subsidising over-production so that the bad harvest years food is merely expensive rather than insufficient.

If it was "capitalism", then the Lassiez faire British empire wouldn't have had the Irish potato famine nor would the East India Company have been in charge for so many famines in India.

replies(1): >>daveit+fu5
◧◩◪
14. downWi+KJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 08:29:16
>>deadba+Jk
There's plenty they can do. For one, control all your media (for example banning of tiktok, since chinese oligarchs are not aligned with our oligarchs), with control over media they can prevent your message from getting out (e.g. Luigi Mangione's manifesto being disappeared), or if the message does get out they can spread propaganda to turn the population against you (see, BLM and many other movements). Also they can remove all your privacy so that any subversive action has a high social cost such as losing your job. Also they can overspend on a stifling police state even as surveillance and control tools get better and cheaper.

Really, they're getting better and better at this, they have tons of practice and their population control tools are getting better.

◧◩◪
15. ben_w+eK[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 08:35:55
>>Jambal+MH
Globally? Sure, assuming cost of living is measured against a fixed quality standard.

Specific countries may be failing to improve, but if you're from the USA remember that your country is 4.25% of the world, and very few of you were ever in abject poverty in the beginning of that timeframe.

Global abject poverty as a standard is roughly "sleeping rough" in western terms (more precisely, it's 2.15 US dollars of purchasing power per day), and the number of people worldwide at that level has gone from 1930 million in 1994 to 1510 million in 2004 to 806 million in 2014 to 693 million today.

◧◩
16. dsign+HK[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 08:42:11
>>ryandr+p9
> I don't know what great inventions and technological leaps we are going to see in 2030, 2040, or 2050, but what I do know is that the benefits and wealth from them will be captured by the same class that is capturing everything today.

I have good news and bad news. The world doesn't stand still. There are some iterations that destroy the structure of society, after which a new structure must be built. The oligarchies of today will meet their end at some point. And, no amount of preemptive effort can prevent that. That's as the good news go, in as much as they are good news.

These are not my ideas exclusively. If you want to hear them from people that has dedicated a fair amount of time at exploring this subject and gathering data, I recommend these books:

- Capital in the Twenty-First Century, for an overview of historical change. You will find that the author agrees with you in many accounts.

- The Collapse of Complex Societies, by Josph A. Tainter.

- Principles for dealing with the changing world order.

The bad news is that the most likely iteration coming around the corner is human's lost of control of our societies in favor of machine intelligence. It's not going to be as "peaceful" as the rise of the post WWII world order, but I hope that we survive.

◧◩◪
17. yorwba+RK[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 08:44:49
>>Jambal+MH
It is easier for the average person today to achieve the standard of living of the average person 10, 20, 30 years ago, and it would've been impossible for the average person 10, 20, 30 years ago to achieve the standard of living of the average person today due to things that are cheap now not even having been invented then.

But expenses expand to fill the available budget, so the actual cost of living is higher, as people earn more to spend more to get more.

(If you wish you had more free time but don't negotiate a pay cut in return for shorter work hours, it just means you value the money more than your time.)

replies(1): >>Jambal+Ut3
◧◩
18. circle+tT[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 10:40:48
>>lkbm+Nn
Just an illustration of this https://www.statista.com/statistics/1341003/poverty-rate-wor...

"nearly 38 percent of the world's population lived on less than 2.15 U.S. dollars in terms of 2017 Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) in 1990, this had fallen to 8.7 percent in 2022"

◧◩◪
19. circle+CT[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 10:43:45
>>Teever+yt
> people hate modern society because they understand that although things are better than they were they aren't nearly as good as they could be

How do you know how good things "could be"? Just because you can imagine something doesn't mean it's possible

replies(2): >>Teever+rE1 >>vouaob+c62
◧◩
20. shadow+sZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 12:13:15
>>ryandr+p9
As if all us peasants are using rotary phones while the plutocrats and oligarchs have these expensive iphones.

What is actually interesting is while the plutocrats and oligarchs have more leg room and better food on their private jet, the airplane itself doesn't move that much faster than me in coach.

You simply underestimate the financial mass of the mass market. These plutocrats and oligarchs only exist as part of a system with an even bigger mass market.

This time is not different.

replies(2): >>vouaob+o52 >>throwa+162
◧◩◪
21. Zephyr+W21[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 13:01:22
>>Jambal+MH
Cost of living/spending power is not the same as quality of life. Mobile phones alone are an insane improvement in QoL.
◧◩
22. Zephyr+m31[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 13:05:32
>>slibhb+Eo
We've also destroyed a lot of social norms that used to help people make good decisions.

Continuously making good choices is really difficult, especially when we have so many incredibly alluring distractions. Having some guard rails is a good thing for almost everyone.

◧◩
23. mandma+W51[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 13:33:00
>>kiba+sm
As if Democrats aren't owned by oligarchs.

Look at who funds them. Look what they do, instead of what they say.

replies(1): >>kiba+QF1
◧◩◪◨
24. Teever+rE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 17:20:55
>>circle+CT
That's just another way of saying that the way things are is optimal, and that we as a society have reached perfection, that we're doing our best.

That is blatantly wrong. Better is always possible and the people who steal and cheat the system are the ones who deny that better world for us all.

The Hitlers, the Putins, the Kochs and Epsteins and Madoffs of the world have made the world far worse than it needs to be for the absolutely worst personal reasons.

◧◩◪
25. kiba+QF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 17:29:57
>>mandma+W51
I don't see how that matter. There was a meaningful choice.
replies(2): >>mandma+jL1 >>mindsl+na2
◧◩◪◨
26. mandma+jL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 18:04:29
>>kiba+QF1
There were some 'meaningful' differences (mostly in their rhetoric, but still) on some important issues.

However, when both 'choices' are openly supporting a live-streamed genocide, then any 'meaning' in the choice is only for people willing to endorse Nazi-level crimes.

... Not Godwinning here, that's just a simple fact; backed up by basically every human rights organization, and the UN, and billions in unguided bombs, etc.

That's why turnout for the Dems was so much lower, as polls and protests had unambiguously promised would be the case. That and the economy, which Democrats insisted is great even as people struggle to survive. Dumb strategy, but the strategists still got paid so...

Democrats used to say, "Not everyone who votes for Trump is a racist - but they all decided it wasn't a dealbreaker"... Well, genocide is quite a bit worse than racism - even if you try to relabel it as 'sparkling ethnic cleansing lite', or 'deserved', or whatever.

And here we are wondering why the future feels fucked up... Smh

replies(1): >>kiba+tN1
◧◩◪◨⬒
27. kiba+tN1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 18:21:50
>>mandma+jL1
I am not really going to argue on the issue of Palestine since that is apparently what you refer to, only to say that I still think there's a meaningful difference.

That's why turnout for the Dems was so much lower, as polls and protests had unambiguously promised would be the case. That and the economy, which Democrats insisted is great even as people struggle to survive. Dumb strategy, but the strategists still got paid so...

Regardless of the Democrat's strategic mistakes, you can't avoid the responsibility of voters, who are supposed to be well informed, well educated, and difficult to fool. Democratic shooting ourselves in the foot is a collective sin.

replies(1): >>mandma+qO1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
28. mandma+qO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 18:29:28
>>kiba+tN1
> I am not really going to argue on the issue of Palestine since that is apparently what you refer to, only to say that I still think there's a meaningful difference.

Yes, I'm referring to the genocide of Palestinians. It's not something I, or other American voters, could overlook.

> you can't avoid the responsibility of voters

No, and I don't, but when corporate media acts in lockstep with the duopoly's oligarch owners (hey, guess who owns corporate media) then voters can't take the full blame.

Look at corporate media folding themselves into conniptions trying not to acknowledge that Americans response to the assassination of a mass murdering CEO was glee, right across the political spectrum. Look at how they've twisted the 'conflict' (aka genocide) in Gaza.

I'll say it one last time: If Democrats had wanted to win this election, they could have. Easily. All the numbers, all the polls, all the world was telling Biden and Harris for the last year: Stop arming Israel. Stop vetoing ceasefires. Just do the absolute bare minimum so we can hold our noses and vote for you, as is tradition...

Dems refused point blank. Trump's presidency isn't on voters, it's on the Dems themselves; and any analysis which misses this fact isn't worth a pig's fart.

replies(1): >>kiba+762
◧◩
29. vouaob+l52[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 20:29:09
>>ryandr+p9
> I don't know what great inventions and technological leaps we are going to see in 2030, 2040, or 2050, but what I do know is that the benefits and wealth from them will be captured by the same class that is capturing everything today.

Due to the laws of diminishing returns, the inventions aren't going to be that great and in fact actively destructive as we are basically running the world on innovation, rather than creating innovation for the world.

◧◩◪
30. vouaob+o52[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 20:30:10
>>shadow+sZ
> As if all us peasants are using rotary phones while the plutocrats and oligarchs have these expensive iphones.

What is interesting is that expensive iPhones are really not that great for society in the first place. It is not that they have iPhones and we don't. Rather, it is that we have iPhones and that is how we are controlled and the return isn't worht it.

◧◩◪
31. vouaob+D52[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 20:31:47
>>deadba+Jk
> That’s what they want us to believe. But at the end of the day, we can always fight. There’s little they can do to stop a massive violent uprising.

The problem with revolution in today's society is that it will be a revolution against a system that provides little trivial comforts, rather than a revolution against a system causing starvation. Thus, it will take much more work to revolt, as it is a revolution against technology itself.

◧◩◪◨
32. vouaob+G52[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 20:32:33
>>TOGoS+gw
> Or a massive not-violent one. Just stop working.

Can't happen. As soon as significantly many people stop working, the remaining will be offered larger salaries to keep working. That is why revolution against the modern power structure is so hard: because there are economic incentives against revolution for the working class.

◧◩
33. vouaob+Q52[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 20:33:33
>>lkbm+Nn
> Don't let a determination to believe everything is bad force you to ignore when things get better.

A decrease in poverty in this case though is traded by an increased addiction to what the oligarch provides. Is an entire society in a dystopia that provides the basic physical comforts but strips us of meaning in life a good end? I think not.

◧◩
34. vouaob+V52[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 20:34:38
>>kiba+sm
> It's so easy to blame it all on the feet of oligarchs, but it is ultimately our collective responsibility. The democrats lost the popular vote. Think about that.

Democrat or republican; both support the oligarchy in separate ways because both support the advancement of technology. And increasingly powerful technology supports oligarchy and that power structure cannot be stopped by democracy because democracy functions within technology.

◧◩◪
35. throwa+162[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 20:34:51
>>shadow+sZ
They are working on automation to replace the bigger system, they rely on.

China just rolled out a police drone, even though china has more than enough people to train for that job.

This is where my dystopian nightmare begins. Autonomous weapon systems, so targeted and unlimited in reach and capability, that no number of civilians thrown into the frey will make a difference. A single machine gun could have stopped the french revolution, and yes, i think humans are very much capable of pressing that button.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
36. kiba+762[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 20:35:24
>>mandma+qO1
Yes, I'm referring to the genocide of Palestinians. It's not something I, or other American voters, could overlook.

Unfortunately, I don't think the issue of Palestinians are important driving issues to American voters. I wish I have a source to point to but this is based on what I read.

Dems refused point blank. Trump's presidency isn't on voters, it's on the Dems themselves; and any analysis which misses this fact isn't worth a pig's fart.

I have said it before, collective responsibility and sin. There's no get out of jail free card for everyone. People made their decisions and now they have to lie with it. You can blame it on the oligarch or the media or whatever you want but it doesn't absolve voters of anything.

The only people who can truly sleep at night with a good conscious are people who voted Democrats and campaign workers who's working hard to execute strategies.

I wish I had engaged with my family more on political issues as they all voted for Trump in a battleground state. I won't be making that mistake again.

◧◩◪◨
37. vouaob+c62[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 20:35:40
>>circle+CT
> How do you know how good things "could be"? Just because you can imagine something doesn't mean it's possible

It's not necessary to know how good things could be. Part of the meaning of life is to work towards a good you think could be, and the modern oligarchy strips us of that right.

◧◩◪◨
38. mindsl+na2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-13 21:10:39
>>kiba+QF1
There was certainly a meaningful choice, but it was between status quo conservatism where the plebs get thrown a few bones but no overall reform to ever-ratcheting corporate control, and spiteful populist destructive rage taking for granted everything we still do enjoy. Spite won. It's hard to tell if another Trump term will be merely another standard of living haircut via rampant inflation and corporate giveaways, or the actual end of US hegemony and western society, because the guy is a verbal diarrhea chameleon. But we as a society have bought the ticket, so I guess we're taking the ride regardless.

It is unfortunate that we didn't have a Luigi Mangione a few years ago, and maybe a few copy cats. Not because escalating to that type of accountability dynamic is something to be celebrated, but rather because the wide outpouring of understanding is the type of unifying pressure relief valve our society desperately needs, instead of being divided and conquered by different flavors of authoritarianism.

◧◩◪◨
39. Jambal+Ut3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-14 14:44:36
>>yorwba+RK
I don’t think it is easier for the average person today to achieve the standard of living of the average person 10, 20, 30 years ago.

Housing is the biggest culprit. It has gone up something like 5x in the last 20 years, while salaries have increased maybe 20%.

replies(1): >>yorwba+rC3
◧◩◪◨⬒
40. yorwba+rC3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-14 16:23:39
>>Jambal+Ut3
Sure, the value of housing has gone up a lot since 2004 (about 2.5×) https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/BOGZ1FL155035013Q

What people actually pay for it, though, in terms of mortgage payments as a share of income, is at basically the same level (6%) https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MDSP

As long as people buy houses on credit, high house prices only reflect that mortgages are cheap.

◧◩◪
41. Throwa+uS3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-14 19:38:03
>>deadba+Jk
As a HN reader most likely making 2x, 3x, 4x or more the median wage, _you_ are part of the overpaid techbros they will be leveling the "massive violent uprising"(sic) against. The working class and poor know darned well we aren't part of the proletariat.
replies(1): >>hackab+QZ3
◧◩◪◨
42. hackab+QZ3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-14 21:02:33
>>Throwa+uS3
You sure about that class strata?

I'm a software developer but I work in a factory making minimum wage now.

I can barely afford rent. I certainly don't feel like bourgeois.

◧◩◪
43. daveit+fu5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-15 18:47:54
>>ben_w+rJ
20 million white Christians were exterminated and this was not an accident. Get your figures right.
replies(1): >>ben_w+St6
◧◩
44. ilrwbw+Wf6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-16 04:51:41
>>kiba+sm
Yup and it happened purely because of elitism.
◧◩◪◨
45. ben_w+St6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-16 08:06:55
>>daveit+fu5
I've not seen any sources claiming such a large number; hundreds of thousands targeted specifically due to their religion and over all races combined, but not millions.

20 million targeted by both race and religion would have been a bigger thing than the actual literal holocaust.

[go to top]