>>41321876 (first) >>41338877 (plenty of discussions)
I tried this new syntax and this seems a reasonable proposal for complex analytical queries. This new syntax probably does not change most simple transactional queries though. The syntax matches the execution semantic more closely, which means you less likely need to formulate query in a weird form to make query planner work as expected; usually users only need to move some pipe operators to more appropriate places.
Worth reading the thread, there are some good insights. It looks like he will be waiting on Postgres to take the initiative on implementing this before it makes it into a release.
This particular post quickly turned into a very thinly veiled excuse for me to complain about PDFs, then demonstrate a Gemini Pro trick.
In this case I converted to HTML - I've since tried converting a paper to Markdown and sharing in a Gist, which I think worked even better: https://gist.github.com/simonw/46a33d66e069efe5c10b63625fdab... - notes here https://simonwillison.net/2024/Aug/27/distro/
There was a talk at the time, but I can't find the video: http://jaoo.dk/aarhus2007/presentation/Using+LINQ+to+SQL+to+....
Basically, it was a way to cleanly plug SQL queries into C# code.
It used this sort of ordering (where the constraints come after the thing being constrained); it needed to do so for IntelliSense to work.
> My goal is to keep SQLite relevant and viable through the year 2050. That's a long time from now. If I knew that standard SQL was not going to change any between now and then, I'd go ahead and make non-standard extensions that allowed for FROM-clause-first queries, as that seems like a useful extension. The problem is that standard SQL will not remain static. Probably some future version of "standard SQL" will support some kind of FROM-clause-first query format. I need to ensure that whatever SQLite supports will be compatible with the standard, whenever it drops. And the only way to do that is to support nothing until after the standard appears.
"Short lived"? Its still alive, AFAIK, and the more popular newer thing for the same use case, Linq to Enntities, has the same salient features but (because it is tied to Entity Framework and not SQL Server specific) is more broadly usable.
While LINQ is mostly restricted to .NET, PRQL is not. https://prql-lang.org/
It's a welcome change in the industry.
I made this prediction a couple years back: https://x.com/tehlike/status/1517533067497201666
If you haven’t tried it, it’s great!
Kusto does seem interesting too, and i think some of the stuff i want to build will find a use for it!
I like the syntax for reading what the statement expects to output first, even though I agree that I don’t write them select first. I feel like this might be optimizing the wrong thing.
Although the example is nice, it does not show 20 tables joined first, which will really muddle it.
And FROM-first syntax absolutely makes more sense, regardless of autocomplete. You should put the "what I need to select" after the "what I'm selecting from", in general.
I think they intentionally kept themselves away from massive redesign of the languages, which has a good chance of becoming multi decades of frustrating death march. I know a number of such cases from C++ standard proposals and probably the team wanted to avoid it.
If they've replaced it with something else in the last decade and a half that does not mean that they didn't get rid of it, or that it wasn't short lived.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/framework/data/adon...
Database people were investing a lot of time and energy on doing things “properly” with EF, and this scrappy little useful tool, linq to sql, was seen as a competitor.
https://leanpub.com/combinators/read#leanpub-auto-the-thrush
Being a concept which transcends programming languages, a search for "thrush combinator" will yield examples in several languages.
I pointed out that you can do this with shell:
Pipelines Support Vectorized, Point-Free, and Imperative Style https://www.oilshell.org/blog/2017/01/15.html
e.g.
hist() {
sort | uniq -c | sort -n -r
}
$ { echo a; echo bb; echo a; } | hist
1 bb
2 a
$ foo | hist
...
https://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/rk-st...
INSERT INTO table FORMAT JSONEachRow {"key": 123}
Plus, it is designed in a way so you can make an INSERT query and stream the data, e.g.:
clickhouse-client --query "INSERT INTO table FORMAT Protobuf" < data.protobuf
curl 'https://example.com/?query=INSERT...' --data-binary @- < data.bsonI choose never to meet this man and be disabused of this notion. Shine on, doctor.
[1] https://github.com/raganwald-deprecated/homoiconic/blob/mast...
If you replace `gist.github.com/<user>/<id>` -> `https://gist.io/@<user>/<id>`, you get a gist with nice typography.
https://gist.io/@simonw/46a33d66e069efe5c10b63625fdabb4e is the same gist you linked, but nicer to read
I've never understood why copying text from digitally native PDFs (created directly from digital source files, rather than by OCR-ing scanned images) is so often such a poor experience. Even PDFs produced from LaTex often contain undesirable ligatures in the copied text like fi and fl. Text copied from some Springer journals sometimes lacks space between words or introduces unwanted space between letters in a word ... Is it due to something inherent in PDF technology?
Well formatted epub and HTML generally are usually intended to update to end user needs and better fit available layout space.
Of course there's EF Core too.
Right now, it's everyone faffing around with different mental models and ugly single pass compilers (my understanding is that parsing-->query planning is not nearly as well-separated in most DBs as parsing-->optomize-->codegen in most compilers).
Exactly. PDF doesn't have instructions to say "render this paragraph of text in this box", it has instructions to say "render each of these glyphs at each of these x,y coordinates".
It was never designed to have text extracted from it. So trying to turn it back into text involves a lot of heuristics and guesswork, like where enough separation between characters should be considered a space.
A lot also depends on what software produced the PDF, which can make it easier or harder to extract the text.
Do you mean something other than ISO/IEC 9075:2023 (the 9th edition of the SQL standard)?
1. Calling it "RETURN" makes the fact of its later order of execution (relative to FROM etc) less surprising.
2. "RETURN RAND()" just reads more naturally than "SELECT RAND()". After all, we're not really "selecting" anything here, are we?
3. Would also eliminate any confusion with the selection operation in relational algebra.
For example, given the expression:
f (g (h (x)))
h (x) |> g |> f
1. Similar to what you mention, while I think PRQL is pretty easy to learn if you know SQL, it still "feels" like a brand new language. This piped SQL syntax immediately felt awesome to me - it mapped how my brain likes to think about queries (essentially putting data through a chain of sieves and transforms), but all my knowledge of SQL felt like it just transferred over as-is.
2. I feel like I'm old enough now to know that the most critical thing for adoption of new technologies that are incremental improvements over existing technologies is to make the upgrade path as easy as possible. I shouldn't have to overhaul everything at once, but I just want to be able to take in small pieces a chunk at a time. While not 100% the same thing, if you look at the famously abysmal uptake of things like IPv6 and the pain it takes to use ES module-only distributions from NPM, the biggest pain point was these technologies made you do "all or nothing" migrations - they didn't have an easy, simple way to get from point A to point B. The thing I like about this piped SQL syntax is that in a large, existing code base I could easily just start adding this in new queries, but I wouldn't really feel the need to overhaul everything at once. With PRQL I'd feel a lot less enthusiastic about using that in existing projects where I'd have a mix of SQL and PRQL.
To be honest, this feels exactly like the kind of mistake that IPv6 made. It wasn't just "let's extend the IPv4 address space and provide an upgrade path that's as incremental as possible", it was "IPv4 has all these problems, lets solve the address space issue with a completely new address space, and while we're at it lets fix 20 other things!" Meanwhile, over a quarter century later, IPv4 shows no signs of going away any time soon.
I'd much rather have an incremental improvement that solves 90% of my pain points than to reach for some "Let's throw all the old stuff away for this new nirvana!" And I say this as someone that really likes PRQL.
Just for once I want to see complete examples of the syntax on an actual advanced query of any kind right away. Sure, toss out one simple case, but then show me how it looks when I have to join 4-5 reference tables to a fact table and then filter based on those things.
Once you do that, it becomes clear why SELECT first won out originally: legibility and troubleshooting.
As long as DBs continue to support standard SQL they can add whatever additional syntax support they want but based on history this'll wind up being a whole new generation of emacs vs vi style holy war.
Also it would make autocomplete in intelligent IDEs much more helpful when typing a query out from nothing.
This isn't really fair. BeefWellington gave a reason why SQL is how it is (and how it has been for ~50 years). It's reasonable to ask for a compelling reason to change the clause order. Simon's post says it "has always been confusing", but doesn't really explain why except by linking to a blog post that says that the SQL engine (sort of but not really) executes the clauses in a different order.
I think the onus of proof that SQL clauses are in the wrong order is on the people who claim they're in the wrong order.
If you engage the syntax with your System 2 thinking (prefrontal cortex, slow, the part of thinking we're naturally lazy to engage) rather than System 1 (automated, instinctual, optimized brain path to things we're used to) you'll most likely find that it is simpler, makes more logical sense so that you're filtering down things naturally like a sieve and composes far better than SQL as complexity grows.
After you've internalized that, imagine the kind of developer tooling we can build on top of that logical structure.
nothing "becomes clear" just by you claiming so, better elaborate
At my previous gig I worked for a decade with an application that meant creating and maintaining large hairy sql that was created to offload application logic to the database (_very_ original) And we used to talk about this "wrong order" often but I never once actually missed it. It was at the most a bit annoying when you jumped in a server to troubleshoot and you knew the two columns you were interested in and you could have saved two seconds. But when working with maintaining those massive queries it always felt good to have the projection up top because that is the end result and what the query is all about. I would not have liked if the method signature in eg Java was just the parameters and the return type was after the final brace. This analogy falls apart of course since params are all over the place but swapping things around wouldn't help.
So just go 'SELECT *...' and go back and expand later, I want my sql syntax "simple". /old developer
However, I don't know if XPS handles the copying of text better.
Being able to do SELECT FROM WHERE in any order and allowing multiple WHEREs and AGGREGATE etc, combined with supporting trailing commas, makes copy pasting templating and reusing and code-generating SQL so much easier.
FROM table <-- at this point there is an implicit SELECT *
SELECT whatever
WHERE some_filter
WHERE another_filter <-- this is like AND
AGGREGATE something
WHERE a_filter_that_is_after_grouping <-- is like HAVING
ORDER BY ALL <-- group-by-all is great in engines that support it; want it for ordering too GROUP AND ORDER BY component_id DESC;
https://clickhouse.com/docs/en/guides/developer/alternative-...
* SELECT first makes autocomplete hard
* SELECT first is the only out of order clause in the SQL statement when you look at it from execution perspective
* you cannot use aliases defined in SELECT in following clauses
* in some places SELECT is pointless but it is still required (to keep things consistent?)
Probably many more.
I did my PhD more than 20 years ago and it was annoying then to be working with all these postscript and pdf documents. It's still annoying. These days people publish content in PDF form on websites and mostly not in printed media. People might print these or not. Twenty years ago, I definitely did. But it's weird how we stick with this. And PDFs are of course very unstructured and hard to make sense of programmatically as well.
I bet a lot of modern day scientists don't actually print the articles they read anymore and instead read them on screen or maybe on some ipad or e-reader. Print has become an edge case. Reading a pdf on a small e-reader is not ideal. Anything with columns is kind of awkward to deal with. There's a reason why most websites don't use columns: it kind of sucks as a UX. The optimal form to deliver text is in a responsive form that can adapt to any screen size where you can change the font size as well. A lot of scientific paper layouts are optimized to conserve a resource that is no longer relevant: paper real estate. Tiny fonts, multiple columns, etc.
Anyway, I like Simon's solution and how it kind of works. It's kind of funny how some of these LLMs can be so lazy. The thing with the references being omitted is hilarious. I see the same with chat gpt where it goes out of its way to never do exactly as you asked and instead just give you bits and pieces of what you ask for until you beg it to just please FFing do as you're told?! I guess they are trying to save some tokens or GPU time.
Google has now proposed a syntax inspired by these approaches. However, I am afraid how well it would be adopted. As someone new to SQL, nearly every DB seem to provide its own SQL dialect which becomes cumbersome very quickly.
Whereas PRQL feels something like Apache Arrow which can map to other dialects.
There are many good reasons why PDF has a “render glyph” instruction instead of a “render string”. In particular your printer and your PDF viewer should not need to have the same text shaping and layout algorithms in order for the PDF to render the same. Oops, your printer runs a different version of Harfbuzz!
The sibling comment is right that a lot depends on the software that produced the PDF. It’s important to be accurate about where the blame lies. I don’t blame the x86 ISA or the C++ standards committee when an Electron app uses too much memory.
The one-column format is fine on a large monitor, but on a small phone I prefer narrower columns, because a wide column would either make the text too small or it would require horizontal panning while reading.
So I consider the two-column format as better for phones, not worse.
|>
It'll take some getting used to, for me...
If the DB engine is executing the statement out of order, why not allow the statement to be written in any order and let itself figure it out?
These queries are always hand-rolled because you pay the analysts to optimize them.
[1] https://elixirschool.com/en/lessons/basics/pipe_operator
BigQuery supports GROUP BY ALL and it really cleans up lots of queries. E.g.
SELECT foo, bar, SUM(baz)
FROM x
GROUP BY ALL <-- equiv to GROUP BY foo, bar
Bikeshedding par excellence.
"users" |> where([u], u.age > 18) |> select([u], u.name)
I find piped queries both easier to write, and read.
Suppose...
SELECT brand, model, revision, SUM(quantity)
FROM stock
GROUP BY brand, model, revision
Group By All allows you to write it a bit more compact...
SELECT brand, model, revision, SUM(quantity)
FROM stock
GROUP BY ALLTo make it easier for humans to read/write the queries.
https://github.com/kiranandcode/petrol
An example query being:
```
let insert_person ~name:n ~age:a db = Query.insert ~table:example_table ~values:Expr.[ name := s n; age := i a ] |> Request.make_zero |> Petrol.exec db
```
It's inspired by Kusto and available as an open-source CLI. I've made it compatible with SQLite in one of my tools, and it's refreshing to use.
An example:
StormEvents
| where State startswith "W"
| summarize Count=count() by StateIs it though?
Are we trying to solve the human SQL parser and generator problem or there is some underlying implementation detail that benefits from pipes?
flights |>
filter(
carrier == "UA",
dest %in% c("IAH", "HOU"),
sched_dep_time > 0900,
sched_arr_time < 2000
) |>
group_by(flight) |>
summarize(
delay = mean(arr_delay, na.rm = TRUE),
cancelled = sum(is.na(arr_delay)),
n = n()
) |>
filter(n > 10)
I think this is bad rationale. Having the columns in order is much more important than having neat syntax for full-table aggregation.
d |> filter(id==max(id),.by=orderId)
LINQ: exists
Splunk query language: exists
KQL: exists
MongoDB query language: exists
PRQL: exists
The paper clearly describes the goal: add a pipe syntax into existing systems with minor changes and be compatible with existing SQL queries.
BTW: LINQ is an AST transformer not a language per se tied to a particular platform. None of existing DBs allows to use it directly.
FROM customer
|> LEFT OUTER JOIN orders ON c_custkey = o_custkey
AND o_comment NOT LIKE '%unusual%packages%'
|> AGGREGATE COUNT(o_orderkey) c_count
GROUP BY c_custkey
|> AGGREGATE COUNT(*) AS custdist
GROUP BY c_count
|> ORDER BY custdist DESC, c_count DESC;
customers: load\csv %customers.csv
orders: load\csv %orders.csv
orders .where-not-contains 'o_comment "unusual packages"
|left-join customers 'o_custkey 'c_custkey
|group-by 'c_custkey { 'c_custkey count }
|group-by 'c_custkey_count { 'c_custkey_count count }
|order-by 'c_custkey_count_count 'descending
{:select [:name :age]
:from {:people :p}
:where [:> :age 10]}
{:from {:people :p}
:select [:name :age]
:where [:> :age 10]}
{:where [:> :age 10]
:select [:name :age]
:from {:people :p}}
Queries as data structures are very versatile, since you can use the language constructs to compose them.
Queries as strings (FROM-first or not) are still strings which are hard to compose without breaking the syntax.
I frequently read documents with many thousands of pages, which also contain many figures and tables.
A variable layout, at least for me, makes the browsing and the search through such documents much more difficult.
I have never ever seen any advantage in having the text reflow to match whatever window happens to be temporarily used to display the text, except for ephemeral messages that I will never read again.
For anything that I will read multiple times, I want the text to retain the same layout, regardless of what device or window happens to display it. If necessary, I see no problem in adjusting the window to fit the text, instead of allowing changes in the text, which would interfere with my ability of remembering it from the previous readings.
I really hate those who fail to provide their technical documentation as PDF documents, being content to just have some Web pages with it.
(The erstwhile code of conduct is now labeled a 'code of ethics', and AFAIK SQLite has no official CoC currently.)
And that's precisely why that was also one of the competing proposals back then, so that tells me that just being easier probably wasn't enough.
You can search for RFC 1475 ("IPv7") and its surrounding history.
Given that SQLite isn't really open to contribution (one of libsql's frustrations) it doesn't really worry me that they didn't & don't have a clear code of conduct. To me, digging through the repository [ETA: the website, rather] for what amounts to a cringey Easter egg and then linking to it as if it were a serious issue is uncalled for. To be honest, I think the complaints shouldn't stayed out of their announcement entirely - they have a legitimately cool vision for what their fork could be, and the complaints were only a distraction.
You didn't have to dig through the repository to find the CoC. It was right there on the website at /codeofconduct.html: https://web.archive.org/web/20180315125217/https://www.sqlit...
Also, tools can trivially tell DQL from DML by the first word they encounter, barring data-modifying functions (o great heavens, no!).
Some DBs allow it or allow it partially. It's a major constant friction factor for me to do a guess work across different database systems.
It quite interesting to dive into history of SQL alternatives in 70x/80x.
You might not have intended it this way, but your choice of phrasing is very condescending.
How is OR done with this WHERES?
SQL has lots of warts, e.g.: the fact that you can write SQL that joins tables without including those tables in a JOIN, which leads to confusion. It's fragmented too -- the other example I posted shows two different syntaxes for TOP N / LIMIT N because different vendors went different ways. The fact that some RDBMSes provide locking hint mechanics and some don't (at least not reliably). The fact that there's no standard set of "library" functions defined anywhere, so porting between databases requires a lot of validation work. It makes portability hard, and some of those features are missing from standards.
You'll note I also mentioned that if they want to add it that's fine but it's gonna wind up being a point of contention in a lot of places. That's because I've seen the same thing happen with the "Big Data" vs "what we have works" crowd.
Having select up front avoids problems in a couple key ways:
1. App devs who are working on their application can immediately see what fields they should expect in their resultset. For CRUD, it's probably usually just whatever fields they selected or `*` because everyone's in the habit of asking for every field they'll never use.
2. Troubleshooting problems is far easier because they almost always stem from a field in the projection. Seeing the projected field list (and thus, table aliases that field comes from) are literally the first pieces of information you need (what field is it and where does that field come from) to start troubleshooting. This is why SELECT ... FROM makes the most sense -- it's literally the two most crucial pieces of information right up front.
3. Query planners already optimize and essentially compile the entire thing anyways, so legibility trumps other options IME.
Another point I'd make to you and everyone else bringing up autocomplete: If you need it, nothing is stopping you from writing your FROM clause first and then moving a line up to write your SELECT. Kinda like how you might stub out a function definition and later add arguments. This doesn't affect the final form for legibility.
Following the document itself, it should be rewritten if it ever intends to include other people, and should be explicitly clarified that the current form only applies to the author himself.
You'd need to do some grouping in there to be able to get one employee per role instead of a single employee out of the whole data set.
Time willing I will provide an updated reply with fixed SQL.
USING THE NEW SQL PROCEDURE IN SAS PROGRAMS (1989) https://support.sas.com/resources/papers/proceedings-archive... The Sql procedure uses SQL to create, modify, and retrieve data from SAS data sets and views derived from those data sets. You can also use the SOL procedure to join data sets and views with those from other database management systems through the SAS/ACCESS software interfaces.
Select first was as much an accident of "it sounded better as an English sentence" to the early SQL designers. Plus also they were working with early era parsers with very limited look ahead and putting the primary "verb" up front was important at the time.
But English is very flexible, especially in "command syntax" and From first is surprisingly common: "From the middle cupboard, grab a plate". SQL trying to sound like English here only shows how inflexible it still is in comparison to actual English.
I've been using C#'s LINQ since it was added to the language in 2007 and the from/where/join/group by/select order feels great, is very legible especially because it gives you great autocomplete support, and troubleshooting is easier than people think.
Also, there are fun things that support Linq syntax for non-ORM uses, too, such as System.Reactive.Linq and LanguageExt: https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/wiki/How-to-deal-with...
Many Programming Ligature fonts even often draw it that way. For instance it is shown under F# in the Fira Code README: https://github.com/tonsky/FiraCode
The usual two-column layout is because having 40 to 60 characters per line in a single column is wasteful of paper. That is a real issue. But the solution is to make the PDF page narrower. Almost nobody prints these documents anyways; there's no good reason they need to conform to legacy sizes like A4 or letter paper commonly found in office printers. Just choose A5 as the size. People who really need to print can fit two A5 pages on one A4 page, and people who view these documents on a phone screen will also find A5 more convenient.
Really hope this takes off and gets more widespread adoption because I really want to stop doing:
SELECT *
FROM all_the_joins
SELECT {my statements here}
FROM all_the_joinsEven for English the exact tweaking of line breaking and hyphenation is a problem that requires manual intervention from time to time. In mathematics research papers it’s not uncommon to see symbols that haven’t yet made it into Unicode. Look at the state of text on the web and you’ll encounter all these problems; even Google Docs gave in and now renders to a canvas.
PDF’s Unicode handling is indeed a big mess but it does have the ability to associate any glyph with an arbitrary Unicode string, for text extraction purposes, so there’s nothing to stop the program that generates the PDF from mapping the fi ligature glyph to the to-character string “fi”.
Yes, if you don't embed your fonts (or at least their metrics) in the PDF layout is less deterministic and will shift from font to font. The point is that we can embed modern fonts in PDF, the virtual printer has upgraded support for that, but for all sorts of reasons some of the tools that build PDF are still acting like they are "printing" to the lowest common denominator and using legacy EBCDIC ligature encodings in 2024. (Fun fact: Unicode's embeddings of the ligatures are somewhat closer to some classic EBCDIC report printing code pages than Extended ASCII's equivalents because there was a larger backwards compatibility gulf there.)
This feels like too much. GROUP BY and ORDER BY are separate clauses, and creating a way to group (heh) them in one clause complicates cognitive load, especially when there is an effort to reduce the overall effort to parse the query in your mind (and to provide a way for an intellisense-like system a way to make better suggestions).
GROUP AND ORDER BY x DESC;
GROUP BY x;
ORDER BY x DESC;
Syntax/DSL designers: if your language uses a separator for anything, please kindly allow trailing versions of that separator anywhere possible.
SQL is fine.
SQL has been the state of the art for db queries for 40 years.
And it will continue to be when we all retire.
- Sometimes the order doesn't matter - Sometimes there are functional dependencies - Sometimes one knows the length of the list in question is 1 (foreign key constraints)
And several more examples with pipe syntax here: https://github.com/google/zetasql/blob/master/zetasql/exampl...
There's an example at the bottom of this file:
https://github.com/google/zetasql/blob/master/zetasql/exampl...
// but let's change it to *int ptr;
// because the pointer symbol is more logical to write first
Please can we solve a real problem instead?
The goal was to explicitly tell people not to bother "just reading it" as one (and by one I mean myself and most people I know, surely there are exceptions) is naturally inclined to do unless something is particularly piquing our interest.
Without engaging in active, conscious effort, syntax that is different than what we're used to (specially something as established as SQL) where the changes aren't groundbreaking at first glance can easily make us dismissive without realizing the benefits. And after seeing it too many times with all kinds of technologies that stray away from the familiar, I just want to prepare the reader so that their judgment can be formed with full use of their faculties rather than a reflex response.
I revert to “group by 1, 2, 3… “ when I’m just hacking about. Group by all would definitely be an improvement.
What about scalar valued functions? :) So I can reuse an expression in a WHERE and so forth
(and I appreciate that HAVING can be generalized/removed)
PRQL is the only real entrant in your list when it comes to adding a pipelining syntax to a language for relational queries in a way that others can freely build on.